What line exactly did I throw an insult at you?

 

You made a point that had nothing to do with what I said and I simply questioned why you were quoting me. You never questioned anything about my post which was why I was confused why you were quoting me.

 

And I still stand by that point, Christians do not follow the Old Testament, maybe you interpreted me wrong. I'm not saying it's irrelevant, i'm saying it's not the testament we live our lives by. If you do indeed follow the old testament, I hope today you no longer eat pork and you're still making your blood sacrifices right?

 

Don't play dumb Theo, you're obviously fishing for something here with me, I said nothing of offense to you.

 

My girlfriend is catholic, we have our disputes on believes, but at the end of the day she's still a follower of Christ and hence a Christian to me. Stop with the stereotypes and assumptions, no one's out to get you.

 

Firstly, you wish to discuss something, then behave courteously and respect your interlocutor... without unecessarily insulting them. Please do take a look at the previous page where you used words such as uneducated. That is what I was referring to. In a discussion about religion of all things, you should avoid insulting people (patronising counts as such as does unargumented dismisiveness, whether or not you meant it as such is perhaps a different question).

 

My point had everything to do with what you said. Especially since you said something about interpretation and how it should be left to each individual. You are making arrogant claims that are factually incorrect, namely "that Christians do not follow" the Old Testament or Ten Commandments. You might not follow them, you Church might not follow them, but do resist the urge to impose your view on everyone else. Furthermore what does it mean to "follow", is it to do literally as it is written, is it to try and abide by the spirit in which it was intended, or something else?

 

You can believe what ever you want, but do not claim that your views are shared by everyone... as a rule of thumb, they most likely are not.

 

The only one playing dumb here is you apparently... As said above, I'm not fishing for anything, your personal belifs are your own and you may believe whatever you want. Having said that, that does not mean your beliefs or your views are imposed on the body of Christianity as a whole...

 

Your staments Samus could have fooled me, objectively speaking, on whether or not you consider Catholics Christians (as I said above, thus the question). Was my question posed in a provocative way... yes it was. But I'm glad you cleared that up.

 

No stereotypes here Samus, that is unless you want to see them, but that is up to you. I said the most important thing (to me anyway) on this issue above in a different reply, namely "When your heart is in Christ, the name of the path on which you follow him, isn't important".

 

To be clear I didn't think anyone was out to get me, but that now that you mentioned it You need to calm down and realise I'm not trying to pin anything on you...

On a lighter note, here's a neat little video with easy to follow instruction  on how to get into Heaven, according to Scripture. Enjoy

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByjvyuTPh6s

On a lighter note, here's a neat little video with easy to follow instruction  on how to get into Heaven, according to Scripture. Enjoy

 

interpretation in the most fundamental way lmao

 

On a lighter note, here's a neat little video with easy to follow instruction  on how to get into Heaven, according to Scripture. Enjoy

 

interpretation in the most fundamental way lmao

 

 

Yes, but then it begs the question: If one really wants to follow in the footsteps of Christ, which instructions in the Bible are bogus and which ones are genuine?

 

 

On a lighter note, here's a neat little video with easy to follow instruction  on how to get into Heaven, according to Scripture. Enjoy

 

interpretation in the most fundamental way lmao

 

 

Yes, but then it begs the question: If one really wants to follow in the footsteps of Christ, which instructions in the Bible are bogus and which ones are genuine?

 

 

I can't answer that really.

 

But you ever get that gut feeling when you make a decision and you know it's just right, like no post conscious?

 

That's what I tend to go off

I can't answer that really.

 

But you ever get that gut feeling when you make a decision and you know it's just right, like no post conscious?

 

That's what I tend to go off

Isn't that just your inherent moral compass though? Do you think religion really adds anything to the mix that you couldn't have in there without it?

 

Furthermore, in order to appreciate the finer moral teachings of Christ, is it really necessary to also believe he was the son of God and could raise the dead, cure the blind and multiply bread? Why not take his good teachings for what they are without the extra dressing that frankly add nothing of substance to them?

Edited July 26, 201610 yr by ccabal86

meanwhile coalition is still twiddling thumbs on bombing the shit out of ISIS. just dont understand 

 

The problem is that bombing the crap out of ISIS won't solve the problem. The West needs to rediscover something worth fighting for.

 

meanwhile coalition is still twiddling thumbs on bombing the shit out of ISIS. just dont understand 

 

The problem is that bombing the crap out of ISIS won't solve the problem. The West needs to rediscover something worth fighting for.

 

 

Liberté, égalité, fraternité. That's a nice starting point. No, it's not where we are as a society, but what we as society should aspire to be. 

BTW I'm not French

 

 

meanwhile coalition is still twiddling thumbs on bombing the shit out of ISIS. just dont understand 

 

The problem is that bombing the crap out of ISIS won't solve the problem. The West needs to rediscover something worth fighting for.

 

 

Liberté, égalité, fraternité. That's a nice starting point. No, it's not where we are as a society, but what we as society should aspire to be. 

BTW I'm not French

 

 

Hm. I don't remember that working out very well....... 

 

 

 

 

meanwhile coalition is still twiddling thumbs on bombing the shit out of ISIS. just dont understand 

 

The problem is that bombing the crap out of ISIS won't solve the problem. The West needs to rediscover something worth fighting for.

 

 

Liberté, égalité, fraternité. That's a nice starting point. No, it's not where we are as a society, but what we as society should aspire to be. 

BTW I'm not French

 

 

Hm. I don't remember that working out very well....... 

 

 

Eh? OK, I get to vote Clinton or Drumpf in a few months. Shoot me now please.

 

 

 

 

meanwhile coalition is still twiddling thumbs on bombing the shit out of ISIS. just dont understand 

 

The problem is that bombing the crap out of ISIS won't solve the problem. The West needs to rediscover something worth fighting for.

 

 

Liberté, égalité, fraternité. That's a nice starting point. No, it's not where we are as a society, but what we as society should aspire to be. 

BTW I'm not French

 

 

Hm. I don't remember that working out very well....... 

 

 

Eh? OK, I get to vote Clinton or Drumpf in a few months. Shoot me now please.

 

 

I feel your pain. I have never been gladder not to be an American.

 

 

meanwhile coalition is still twiddling thumbs on bombing the shit out of ISIS. just dont understand 

 

 

 

The problem is that bombing the crap out of ISIS won't solve the problem. The West needs to rediscover something worth fighting for.

Well bombing Isis is more legit than supporting dictators, occupation and forcing democracies through bombs...literally, dont you think?

 

 

meanwhile coalition is still twiddling thumbs on bombing the shit out of ISIS. just dont understand 

 

 

The problem is that bombing the crap out of ISIS won't solve the problem. The West needs to rediscover something worth fighting for.

Well bombing Isis is more legit than supporting dictators, occupation and forcing democracies through bombs...literally, dont you think?

 

 

 

We seem to think along the same lines. I always thought Bush's invasion of Iraq was dumb, and destabilising Syria, Egypt, Libya, etc was one of the many colossal errors of the Obama administration.

So one of my friends just had a baby. It is very cute and adorable. 

 

She is a the descendant of Iraqi Refugees living in Sweden, who took them in after the first gulf war and the bloodbath that followed. She is a lovely woman, with a lovely husband (also a refugee), and will be a wonderful mother. Reading the comments on facebook, there are some in Arabic, some in Swedish, some in English. A coming together of peoples, races and religions to celebrate a beautiful little baby boy. 

 

Which is what this is about and why we are not, must never be, and hopefully never will be at war with Islam. This is a beautiful child, born innocent, to be celebrated by everybody. As soon as we have a notion that we are at war with Islam, at war with those descended from Islam, we are at war with ourselves, our principles, our tolerance and we will create something evil for that child. If we continue with what we have stood for, for tolerance, equality, compassion, for love and for brotherhood, we will create something beautiful for that child. 

 

I was raised a Catholic, although I no longer follow that path, the basic principle of Love thy neighbor stays with me. The thing is, most victims of ISIS are Muslims. If you are a Muslim you have a far greater chance of death at the hands of ISIS than a Western European Christian. That is why the refugees have come to Europe, because ISIS was killing them. And that is why if you want to defeat ISIS you must stand with the overwhelmingly decent, honest, hospitable people that fill the Middle East in their struggle with the evil group that is poisoning their land, killing their people, bombing their cities, destroying their heritage and culture. We stand a much better chance if we remember that we are mostly on the same side, than if we stare down a blinkered view, insisting that we are different and declaring a war on an entire religion/people. 

So one of my friends just had a baby. It is very cute and adorable. 

 

She is a the descendant of Iraqi Refugees living in Sweden, who took them in after the first gulf war and the bloodbath that followed. She is a lovely woman, with a lovely husband (also a refugee), and will be a wonderful mother. Reading the comments on facebook, there are some in Arabic, some in Swedish, some in English. A coming together of peoples, races and religions to celebrate a beautiful little baby boy. 

 

Which is what this is about and why we are not, must never be, and hopefully never will be at war with Islam. This is a beautiful child, born innocent, to be celebrated by everybody. As soon as we have a notion that we are at war with Islam, at war with those descended from Islam, we are at war with ourselves, our principles, our tolerance and we will create something evil for that child. If we continue with what we have stood for, for tolerance, equality, compassion, for love and for brotherhood, we will create something beautiful for that child. 

 

I was raised a Catholic, although I no longer follow that path, the basic principle of Love thy neighbor stays with me. The thing is, most victims of ISIS are Muslims. If you are a Muslim you have a far greater chance of death at the hands of ISIS than a Western European Christian. That is why the refugees have come to Europe, because ISIS was killing them. And that is why if you want to defeat ISIS you must stand with the overwhelmingly decent, honest, hospitable people that fill the Middle East in their struggle with the evil group that is poisoning their land, killing their people, bombing their cities, destroying their heritage and culture. We stand a much better chance if we remember that we are mostly on the same side, than if we stare down a blinkered view, insisting that we are different and declaring a war on an entire religion/people. 

 

During Ramadhan I enjoyed an iftar meal with members of a local mosque, who were lovely people who had inherited good morals from their Islamic tradition. I think deep, radical love for our neighbour is the best answer we have available to jihad. 

I like how ccabal brushed aside occupations and mass murders of Muslims in Kashmir, Palestine etc. 3 or 4 dozen unarmed protestors were shot and killed in Kashmir, 100s blinded by use of pallet guns, the current uprising isn't even particularly about religion but more about right to self determination. How do you think people would react when generations of them have been denied basic human dignity?

Now I imagine say if Erdogan's government shot and killed dozen of Christian protestors, ccabal et al would be up in arms and saying just how bad all the Muslims are.

Just proves the point that to you a value of human life is not just equal. That crimes committed by state-actors is in some way ok against unarmed civilians and that it is a negligible and ignorable crime compared to non-state actors committing crimes against unarmed civilians. Infact, it should be the other way around.

 

Let's put some core and basic facts on the table.

 

- Currently, as a religious group, it is the Muslims that form the largest number of people that are under draconian occupation compared to any other group.  Please let me know if there is anyone else. 

-  How many non-muslim countries being invaded by a muslim majority country in the last generation? 

- How many regime changes are being directed by a Muslim majority country on a non-Muslim majority country? Compare that to regime changes being conducted against Muslim countries by non-Muslim countries?

- Let's talk about civilian deaths which have been caused by foreign interventions while we are it.

 

Just because these facts do not make rounds on your media or circles on daily basis does not mean that these facts do not exist. Do the maths, see the actual big picture. More people have been killed in the name of Democracy than Allah, let's get that on the table here.

And you literally keep quoting same points from Quran, picking them out without any contextual references like ISIS uses to justify whatever the fuck they are doing right now.

For every point you quote, you can find a counter point from the same book or from examples of prophets life. unfortunately for you and some Isis, they'd pick the ones that supports whatever narrative they're running with.

One thing we can tho agree on, bomb the fuck out of ISIS, west has bombed countries for far less or nothing, I just don't understand the hesitation...you'll even have public opinion on your side, hell, even in Muslim majority countries.

You should allying with moderates who are fighting their narrative, not undermine them by brushing them together with these guys too.

Also lol at no friends because the book says, I consider you a friend, even tho I strongly disagree with some of your views, but yea, I'm here with all of you, so stop being an idiot man. Life experience taught me that simplifying the world in black or white leads to bad decisions and unhappiness.

I like how ccabal brushed aside occupations and mass murders of Muslims in Kashmir, Palestine etc. 3 or 4 dozen unarmed protestors were shot and killed in Kashmir, 100s blinded by use of pallet guns, the current uprising isn't even particularly about religion but more about right to self determination. How do you think people would react when generations of them have been denied basic human dignity?

 

Now I imagine say if Erdogan's government shot and killed dozen of Christian protestors, ccabal et al would be up in arms and saying just how bad all the Muslims are.

 

Just proves the point that to you a value of han life is not just equal.

I am saddened by thsoe attacks as well, but the cold hard thruth is that it's 1) been like that for decades and 2) they're in a far away place and therefore not my immediate concern. Yes, you can call me a selfish asshole, but humans are like that, they care most about the things that hit close to home.

And you literally keep quoting same points from Quran, picking them out without any contextual references like ISIS uses to justify whatever the fuck they are doing right now.

 

For every point you quote, you can find a counter point from the same book or from examples of prophets life. unfortunately for you and some Isis, they'd pick the ones that supports whatever narrative they're running with.

Ok, maybe I could have been more creative with the Koran quotes, but I can switch either of them out for far worse, there are plenty. My point here is that as long as mainstream Muslims in general, and clerics in particular hang on to the dogma that the Koran contains the exact, infallible and final word of God (which I believe is the core tenet of Islam) you're going to have trouble. Heck, without questioning this you don't even have grounds to criticize what ISIS is doing, at least not from a theological standpoint. Obviously, the pink elephant in the room is that the Koran is at the very least NOT the literal truth of God if only for the controviersies alone that you have mentioned. If contition "A" is the opposite of condition "B", then "A" and "B" cannot be simultaneously true, no matter how mysterious God's ways are. Instead, like other sacred scriptures in the world, the Koran too was written by fallible human beings and therefore it too is an imperfect product, like everything else in the world. Now the problem here, is that whichever Muslim points out the pink elephant is likely to be branaded an Apostate and dealt with most harshly. You live in Pakistan, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

 

This is an issue that you guys will have to deal with eventually, or things will keep going downhill. Not sure how best to go at it, but recognizing and admitting that the problem exists would be a good first step.

One thing we can tho agree on, bomb the fuck out of ISIS, west has bombed countries for far less or nothing, I just don't understand the hesitation...you'll even have public opinion on your side, hell, even in Muslim majority countries.

Just as Muslims, the West is pussyfooting around the aforementioned core issue. The willful or unwitting obfuscation by virtually all stakeholders does not help either and actually obstructs your next point:

You should allying with moderates who are fighting their narrative, not undermine them by brushing them together with these guys too.

I would call them "liberal" and not "moderates", but I completely agree. Unfortunately those Muslims who are willing to admit that among many other factors the very nature if Islam as it is practiced toady is also to blame are instantly marginalized and ignored (and not just by Muslims, but also the Western regressive left), just look at Maajid Nawaz and Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Also lol at no friends because the book says, I consider you a friend, even tho I strongly disagree with some of your views, but yea, I'm here with all of you, so stop being an idiot man. Life experience taught me that simplifying the world in black or white leads to bad decisions and unhappiness.

I also consider you a friend, but I reject that I'm painting a black and white picture. I just think that I'm pointing out some facts that by all rationale should be truisms, and yet somehow they are not. But I do believe that unless there is some sincere and open discussion about these, we will continue slide down the apocalypse spiral.

So one of my friends just had a baby. It is very cute and adorable. 

 

She is a the descendant of Iraqi Refugees living in Sweden, who took them in after the first gulf war and the bloodbath that followed. She is a lovely woman, with a lovely husband (also a refugee), and will be a wonderful mother. Reading the comments on facebook, there are some in Arabic, some in Swedish, some in English. A coming together of peoples, races and religions to celebrate a beautiful little baby boy. 

 

Which is what this is about and why we are not, must never be, and hopefully never will be at war with Islam. This is a beautiful child, born innocent, to be celebrated by everybody. As soon as we have a notion that we are at war with Islam, at war with those descended from Islam, we are at war with ourselves, our principles, our tolerance and we will create something evil for that child. If we continue with what we have stood for, for tolerance, equality, compassion, for love and for brotherhood, we will create something beautiful for that child. 

 

I was raised a Catholic, although I no longer follow that path, the basic principle of Love thy neighbor stays with me. The thing is, most victims of ISIS are Muslims. If you are a Muslim you have a far greater chance of death at the hands of ISIS than a Western European Christian. That is why the refugees have come to Europe, because ISIS was killing them. And that is why if you want to defeat ISIS you must stand with the overwhelmingly decent, honest, hospitable people that fill the Middle East in their struggle with the evil group that is poisoning their land, killing their people, bombing their cities, destroying their heritage and culture. We stand a much better chance if we remember that we are mostly on the same side, than if we stare down a blinkered view, insisting that we are different and declaring a war on an entire religion/people.

 

First of all, congratulations to your friends on the baby.

 

With that said let's make some clarifications first. "Peoples, races and religions" is somewhat obscurantist, "those descended from Islam" is even more so. What's funny is that you might not even be aware that you're doing it. Notions like anti-semitism, racism, xenophobia, islamophobia are used so incorrectly and interchangeably in  in the media that they're all becoming a jumbled mess.

 

Race is the outwardly appearance of one's genotype - the result of minute differences in one's genome that really shouldn't even be an issue from a biological perspective. One does not pick his genome, and therefore neither does his race.  Islam is not a race. It is a religion (which is a polite way to call an ideology that, via unfortunate social conventions, enjoys immunity from criticism). When you look at the core of it, it's not actually different from other ideologies like Communism, Libertarianism, etc, and one should be free to pick his ideologies.

 

Therefore when people speak of "Christian babies" and "Muslim babies" it makes no more sense than to speak of "Fascist babies" or "Capitalist babies", unless of course we accept that a two-year-old is familiar with the teachings of Christ and agrees with them. When you speak of "those descended from Islam", it's problematic for the same reason (a.k.a "those descended from Communism").

 

Then there is the question of indoctrination, but I'm not going to get into that right now. Let's just say that like this child, others are also "beautiful, born innocent, to be celebrated by everybody" and it's outright criminal when so many are intellectually hobbled for life by some sort of dogma instead of being taught to think critically. Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting that your friends would do this, just trying to prove a point.

On ISIS's victims being Muslims. Yes, this is true. It's only that according to them, they're the wrong kind of Muslims or they're not Musim enough. Like I said earlier, the trenches don't lie between Muslims and non-Muslims, it's way more difficult than that.

Edited July 27, 201610 yr by ccabal86

how does the quote system works, it keeps quoting the whole thing  -.-

You have to go into text mode and insert the tags yourself. It's the little switch top left corner

You have to go into text mode and insert the tags yourself. It's the little switch top left corner

or just press quote..

 

or select the text you want to quote and click quote

Or type the text between the quote tags in normal editor. That works too

^Edited my placeholder

Latest updates on blasphemy/apostasy front: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/29/which-countries-still-outlaw-apostasy-and-blasphemy/

Something is stirring in France, maybe there is hope yet: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36939601