15 replies to this topic

[ccabal86]

https://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/06/18/10000-muslims-were-expected-to-march-against-terrorism-heres-how-many-showed-up/

So it seems the Muslims against terror march which was organized in Cologne in a response to recent terror attacks was met with...limited popularity. Don't want to insinuate anything, but it DOES make you wonder.

[Shahenshah]

The Top two organisations which were expected to pull most of the crowd pulled out due to disagreements and the whole event was marred with internal disorder between different groups and became a mess, which is sad and allows you to push your conclusions.

[ccabal86]

I think we all would have prefered a large turnout.

[Shahenshah]

And then what? The new headline would have been "10,000 out of million Muslims come out to protest, bohoo".



Tell me, do you go protest everytime a NATO bomb kills civilians?

[ccabal86]

If people started committing terror attacks in the name of Atheism I know I would.

[Shahenshah]

Nice side stepping.

I'd be happy to March as long as all forms of violence are protested against. I'm not going to get into selective moralisms. Terrorism ON Muslims as Muslims are the largest porsecuted group by Non muslim and Muslim terror and terrorism done in their name, both aspects need to be protested against. All angles to the story should be covered. The root causes and symptom both must be highlighted if you are actually sincere about solving the issue.

And tbh, at end of the Day, it gets stale, I have nothing to prove to anyone, especially those who have already prejudged me based on their ignorance or their echo chambers or believe systems where there only one side to story, you can't argue with a wall and theyll just keep asking you to do more and more and more, it's a shit show from start to finish. Eventually they'll realise theyve been attacking the symptoms and ignored the root causes.

[ccabal86]

Nice side stepping.

I'd be happy to March as long as all forms of violence are protested against. Terrorism ON Muslims as Muslims are the largest porsecuted group by Non muslim and Muslim terror and terrorism done in their name. All angles to the story should be covered. The root causes and symptom both must be highlighted if you are actually sincere about solving the issue.

Else it's all as good as say those Facebook dps and lighting of monuments.

 

Look, you can only blame colonialism and botched foreign affairs for so long. Muslims were not the only ones who were shafted by the power plays of great powers, yet the problem of global terrorism is a uniquely Muslim problem. Do you want to talk about the root causes? Great! First question: why do extremists find it so easy to justify their actions by the Koran? Why is their narrative so hard to counter? Simply saying that the terrorists are un-Islamic and they have nothing to do with Islam is clearly BS, because they are convinced of their truth to the point where they wish nothing more than to martyr themselves. I deliberately didn't say "sacrifice" because what they're doing isn't something along the lines of "I may die, but I will further my Cause so that my children have a happier life" kind of thing. What they think is more along the lines of "I will die on the field of battle and take as many infidels as I can with me. For this God will wipe away all my sins and will be rewarded with eternal bliss in Paradise" So what is this then if not a deadly combination of hatred, contempt and religious zeal?

[Shahenshah]

 

Nice side stepping.

I'd be happy to March as long as all forms of violence are protested against. Terrorism ON Muslims as Muslims are the largest porsecuted group by Non muslim and Muslim terror and terrorism done in their name. All angles to the story should be covered. The root causes and symptom both must be highlighted if you are actually sincere about solving the issue.

Else it's all as good as say those Facebook dps and lighting of monuments.

Look, you can only blame colonialism and botched foreign affairs for so long. Muslims were not the only ones who were shafted by the power plays of great powers, yet the problem of global terrorism is a uniquely Muslim problem. Do you want to talk about the root causes? Great! First question: why do extremists find it so easy to justify their actions by the Koran? Why is their narrative so hard to counter? Simply saying that the terrorists are un-Islamic and they have nothing to do with Islam is clearly BS, because they are convinced of their truth to the point where they wish nothing more than to martyr themselves. I deliberately didn't say "sacrifice" because what they're doing isn't something along the lines of "I may die, but I will further my Cause so that my children have a happier life" kind of thing. What they think is more along the lines of "I will die on the field of battle and take as many infidels as I can with me. For this God will wipe away all my sins and will be rewarded with eternal bliss in Paradise" So what is this then if not a deadly combination of hatred, contempt and religious zeal?

The fact you think I talked about colonialism shows your utter lack of information on the topic which would actually relate to the second point.

Regarding Quran and violence, when you're onto something, your mind will find a way to justify it. You are an example in itself, you're convinced there is a justification for it, even tho, you seem like a well read and educated guy, your search for 'truth' was limited to the point of finding justification of violence in a text, you found off some blogs, tabloids etc and validated your believes. You were able to find what you were looking for. If you were looking for the opposite, you would have found that too, it's the internet man. You WILL find what you're looking for to validate your believes. See you thought I was talking about colonialism, I wasn't, but it helps shed light onto the kind of information you seek and gather to VALIDATE what you believe in.

Now to extend your broken logic..why is it so easy to justify violence, occupation, death and destruction in the name of freedom, justice and democracy? More people have died on the receiving end of it then any other ideology since the fall of communism.

 

Now, to say there is no problem here is putting your head in the sand, there's a big fucking problem here IMO and it starts with parallel madrassah education systems, which in its current form is big echo chamber of dangerous stupidity, back it up by overall weaker education system in general, poor governance and you have this certain number of volatile people as a baseline. Then you pour in war, destruction, personal lose (due to war) and you get a cocktail of extremists. 

 

So if you were to ask me what needs to be done, parallel systems of education need to be shut down ASAP, these tom dicks and harrys of religion (they, btw, mostly are politicians as well, so you catch my drift here) need to be locked up in solitary confinement, and the main education system to be ramped up along with no foreign violent foreign interventions in otherwise ~stable societies and countries (Iraq was stable as a society, Libya too was socially stable, sure Gaddafi was a dick but right now you have multiple bigger dicks running the show their), let this play out for a while and things will settle down IMO, stop with the whole regime change stuff, find just solutions to issues of Palestine and Kashmir etc where millions have lived under violent occupation with no basic rights or even dignity etc.

 

And yea, meanwhile, keep pounding ISIS and the nut jobs, they'll eventually wear out as their recruitment will become ineffective due to the above reasons.

 

 

Right now, the problem is that we all are counting on those who instigated the problems, these are not individuals, these are well rooted established political institutions, Republicans, Democrats, Tories, bla bla and their counterparts on the other side, your household political brands, they're all instigators to this shit show. Fear gets you votes, fear gets you to win elections, fear creates war, war maintains balance of power. 

 

What you and me are discussing within the grand context is quite cute, naive and laughable, but we're having our little discourse where we learn from each other.

[ccabal86]

If you weren't talking about Colonialism, then my bad, I thought you were. Maybe it's because it tends to come up as the 1# cause for the problems of the ME today.

 

As far as Islamic fundamentals go, I believe it's a very unfortunate mix of mutually reinforcing bad ideas and practices that lead to some very unfavorable outcomes. I will refer to Hirsi Ali here, for the sole reason that she has put it more eloquently than I could.

 

1. The quasi-divine and infallible status of Muhammad coupled with the literalist reading of the Koran.
2. The fixation on life after death instead of actual life you live
3. The all-encompassing nature of Sharia, a legal code based on the Koran and the Hadith. The Halal/Haram binary system.
4. The practice of commanding Right and forbidding Wrong
5. The imperative to wage jihad

Now expanding a bit on each of these points:

 

1, It really isn't hard to see why setting a 7th century tribal warlord as role-model in the 21st century a bad idea. The guy might have been brilliant in his time, and even progressive by the standards of his age, but that was over 1400 years ago! That time cannot be brought back not should it be. Not to say that there is a sharp contrast between Muhammad's life in Mecca and his life in Medina - which also made it's mark on the Koran (the Mecca verses being largely peaceful, and the Medina verses being bellicose). By rejecting the Prophet's human (and fallible) nature and the consideration that the Koran is man-made this leads to a conclusion that extremists like to use. If the Koran is Allah's exact words (which I believe is the compomise today) then the explanation for these controversies is that the later Medina verses "abrogate" the earlier Mecca verses. Allah told the believers what they had to hear at the given time, e.g. "be meek" while they were weak and "conquer" as they became strong enough.

 

2, Life is but an intermediary state, a "test" while one prepares for the afterlife, which is for eternity. The way one behaves in this short period of time will determine their fate. Unfortunately, the standards are very rigorous, it doesn't take much to lose the opportunity to get into Jannah (Heaven). There is a golden ticket however: martyrdom, or to fall on the field of battle. Instant Jannah-access for the martyr, strong advocacy for their relatives and they don't even need to wait any longer. Conditions detailed pretty accurately in the Koran.

 

3, Apart from the obvious of why it is a horrible idea to base an actual legal code on religion, there is another major difference between Sharia and western legal systems. In Western legal systems the basic premise is that you MAY do anything that is not explicitly FORBIDDEN, while Sharia attempts to apply a the Halal/Haram binary system to every walk of life. What is not Halal or explicitly ALLOWED if either Haram, FORBIDDEN or "pending evaluation". Everything that is "pending evaluation" is to be viewed with suspicion. I believe this says alot  about the systemic lack of innovation in Muslim areas.

 

4, It is the duty of every Muslim to point and call out un-Islamic behavior if they see it and attempt to correct it. This is the ultimate Orwellian control, it DESTROYS dissent. Even in the WORST totalitarian regimes dissidents could retreat to the safety of their nuclear families. In this system, it is this nuclear family that is often the worst prison guard.

 

5, Yeah this is what it is. Again explicitly stated in the Koran and Hadith. You REALLY need to bend over backwards to understand this in a metaphorical sense, especially if one employs a literalist reading. Come to think of it, regular Joe Blows are not even allowed to interpret the Koran for themselves, they must seek out the counsel of an Imam, which by the way, can be almost anyone who has a bit of charisma and claims to have an understanding of the scriptures.

 

These few simple arguments of course are considered outrageous heresies by even the mainstream. The biggest problem we have though, is that you couldn't even agree with them even if you wanted to, because being from Pakistan, it would seriously put your personal safety at risk. I can't blame you.

[ccabal86]

The fact you think I talked about colonialism shows your utter lack of information on the topic which would actually relate to the second point.

 

Again, it's often the go-to argument and I kind of thought it's what you brought up
 

Regarding Quran and violence, when you're onto something, your mind will find a way to justify it. You are an example in itself, you're convinced there is a justification for it, even tho, you seem like a well read and educated guy, your search for 'truth' was limited to the point of finding justification of violence in a text, you found off some blogs, tabloids etc and validated your believes. You were able to find what you were looking for. If you were looking for the opposite, you would have found that too, it's the internet man. You WILL find what you're looking for to validate your believes. See you thought I was talking about colonialism, I wasn't, but it helps shed light onto the kind of information you seek and gather to VALIDATE what you believe in.

 

My argument went beyond just pointing to the Koran and saying look, there is a violent passage over there! Obviously the problem is far more complex than I laid out even in my  previous post and it points to something ENDEMICALLY wrong. At one point you have to ask the question why have internal reformers lost time and time again to reactionaries. The longer Muslims fail to acknowledge there is a problem here, the longer it will take to go through with a reformation.

 

Now to extend your broken logic..why is it so easy to justify violence, occupation, death and destruction in the name of freedom, justice and democracy? More people have died on the receiving end of it then any other ideology since the fall of communism.

 

Eh, I don't know about that. I'd say more lives were lost in local conflicts than western interventions. Maybe you're right

 

Now, to say there is no problem here is putting your head in the sand, there's a big fucking problem here IMO and it starts with parallel madrassah education systems, which in its current form is big echo chamber of dangerous stupidity, back it up by overall weaker education system in general, poor governance and you have this certain number of volatile people as a baseline. Then you pour in war, destruction, personal lose (due to war) and you get a cocktail of extremists.

 

That is very true, madrassas are a HUGE problem where they are allowed to operate parallel to normal education systems and especially where there is no normal education to speak of and it is these places alone where children can go. They provide no usable skills to speak of, and only serve to create religious zealots. BUT that is only part of the picture. If this were up to education alone, we wouldn't see upper middle class people with degrees and established careers  turn to terrorism (e.g. the 9/11 hijackers, Tsarnaev brothers, Faisal Shahzad, etc, the list goes on and on). There's more to it.
 

So if you were to ask me what needs to be done, parallel systems of education need to be shut down ASAP, these tom dicks and harrys of religion (they, btw, mostly are politicians as well, so you catch my drift here) need to be locked up in solitary confinement, and the main education system to be ramped up along with no foreign violent foreign interventions in otherwise ~stable societies and countries (Iraq was stable as a society, Libya too was socially stable, sure Gaddafi was a dick but right now you have multiple bigger dicks running the show their), let this play out for a while and things will settle down IMO, stop with the whole regime change stuff, find just solutions to issues of Palestine and Kashmir etc where millions have lived under violent occupation with no basic rights or even dignity etc.

 

No arguments here. If only...

 

And yea, meanwhile, keep pounding ISIS and the nut jobs, they'll eventually wear out as their recruitment will become ineffective due to the above reasons.

I don't know about that. Sure, recruitment is already down because they lost Dabiq, and that wasn't supposed to happen (no Muslim Ragnarok just yet), but even if you kill the organization, the ideology will be very much alive. ISIS is the symptom, not the cause. I'm almost embarrassed to say this, but ideas ARE bulletproof. 

 

 

Right now, the problem is that we all are counting on those who instigated the problems, these are not individuals, these are well rooted established political institutions, Republicans, Democrats, Tories, bla bla and their counterparts on the other side, your household political brands, they're all instigators to this shit show. Fear gets you votes, fear gets you to win elections, fear creates war, war maintains balance of power.

 

True, unfortunately.

 

What you and me are discussing within the grand context is quite cute, naive and laughable, but we're having our little discourse where we learn from each other.

 

I'm sure we could both discuss this more deeply, but there's only so much you can do on an internet forum. Maybe we can do it in person when you come to Hungary? Clear one of your afternoons

[Shahenshah]

ok I wrote a response and it wont post :/

[ccabal86]

ok I wrote a response and it wont post :/

 

Copy to notepad and try later

[Shahenshah]

Fatal error: Maximum execution time of 30 seconds exceeded in /home/ironcent/public_html/community/admin/sources/classes/text/parser.php on line 1808

[ccabal86]

Fatal error: Maximum execution time of 30 seconds exceeded in /home/ironcent/public_html/community/admin/sources/classes/text/parser.php on line 1808

 

Try posting in in the CODE tag, maybe it has something to do with formatting. Otzherwise send it in PM, I'll try to post it for you.

 

BTW, I edited in as promised

[ccabal86]

Posted on Shah's behalf, the quots are mine, plain text are his:

If you weren't talking about Colonialism, then my bad, I thought you were. Maybe it's because it tends to come up as the 1# cause for the problems of the ME today.

As far as Islamic fundamentals go, I believe it's a very unfortunate mix of mutually reinforcing bad ideas and practices that lead to some very unfavorable outcomes. I will refer to Hirsi Ali here, for the sole reason that she has put it more eloquently than I could.

The quasi-divine and infallible status of Muhammad coupled with the literalist reading of the Koran.
The fixation on life after death instead of actual life you live
The all-encompassing nature of Sharia, a legal code based on the Koran and the Hadith. The Halal/Haram binary system.
The practice of commanding Right and forbidding Wrong
The imperative to wage jihad
Now expanding a bit on each of these points:

1, It really isn't hard to see why setting a 7th century tribal warlord as role-model in the 21st century a bad idea. The guy might have been brilliant in his time, and even progressive by the standards of his age, but that was over 1400 years ago! That time cannot be brought back not should it be. Not to say that there is a sharp contrast between Muhammad's life in Mecca and his life in Medina - which also made it's mark on the Koran (the Mecca verses being largely peaceful, and the Medina verses being bellicose). By rejecting the Prophet's human (and fallible) nature and the consideration that the Koran is man-made this leads to a conclusion that extremists like to use. If the Koran is Allah's exact words (which I believe is the compomise today) then the explanation for these controversies is that the later Medina verses "abrogate" the earlier Mecca verses. Allah told the believers what they had to hear at the given time, e.g. "be meek" while they were weak and "conquer" as they became strong enough.

He was'nt really a warlord, more of a statesman, all statesman have had to deal with war one way or another. The tribal order was alot more dominant before him, rather than after, would'nt call him tribal either, he was from a ruling tribe, he undid the system that kept that tribe in 'ruling class'. He preached against tribalism actually. Prophet was very much a human, the tradition of having no pictures or statues of him is a reminder that he was, at the end, a human, not an immortal, not to be worshipped in anyway, offcourse he's revered, building a civilisation out of warring petty desert tribes, which at one point was the most advanced in terms of science and knowledge. The thing with hadith, most of them were not recorded at time, but narrated through generations until they were compiled, some compilers used more robust methods, some didnt, so you have all sorts. In the end, Koran takes precedence. For instance, there's no worldly punishment in Koran for being homosexual, but people tend to take things in their own hands. The hadith do not abrogate the earlier ones unless they're directly contradictory within a framework of context. Those trained to interpret these are required to understand the full nature of Arabic back then (which is very different from today) and the interpreters need to remember each of the the chains of narrations, there are >40,000 narrations and chains of them and learning a language that doesnt exist in the same form with its nuisances requires years and years of education and knowledge. Thats why, you, me and every tom dick harry imam are not actually qualified to interpret these, there are those who do, mostly scholarly people, tho, they tend to be stuck in books, while the tom dicks and harrys make ruckus out and about. There are many who do show up on media, but hey's that wont help the ratings now will it?

So, now, you need highly educated and rational people to do these interpretations, which isnt gonna happen alot if general education levels of populations are'nt too high in the first place. What I mentioned above, many people would'nt know and take the word of every random Imam. Now these Imams have their echo chambers to re-inforce their 'status' through Madressahs, which as I mentioned earlier need to be taken care of and is a problem point.

2, Life is but an intermediary state, a "test" while one prepares for the afterlife, which is for eternity. The way one behaves in this short period of time will determine their fate. Unfortunately, the standards are very rigorous, it doesn't take much to lose the opportunity to get into Jannah (Heaven). There is a golden ticket however: martyrdom, or to fall on the field of battle. Instant Jannah-access for the martyr, strong advocacy for their relatives and they don't even need to wait any longer. Conditions detailed pretty accurately in the Koran.

The crux of it is to live a life of a decent and good human being. That as you said is the 'test', the shortcut would then mean you contradict the 'test'. So, you're actually contradicting both of these. Armed Struggle, commonly referred as Jihad isnt even the 'priority' Jihad. There are other Jihads that take precedent, that of self-control against bad deeds, (tl;dr, dont be a dick/asshole/criminal), then there is one of pen/knowledge/education, then there is charity and finally, the last resort is the one of combat. The extremists conveniently jump to the last one directly. Why you also see alot of Muslims complaining that they down want to own shit of these guys. I can say all I want that I'm a Bulgarian, I'll go pop some crackers on the street and run with a Bulgarian flag, it wont make me a Bulgarian tho, and if then everyone else asks you the Bulgarians to protest about what that Bulgarian guy did, obviously, people wont be too pleased about it, now multiply that with 100 or 1000.

Another point that seems missed almost always, only THE STATE can declare armed Jihad. Not tom dick and harry. Now, what is the State? the one that has legitimacy of the people behind it. That can be any form of government, democracy or not.

3, Apart from the obvious of why it is a horrible idea to base an actual legal code on religion, there is another major difference between Sharia and western legal systems. In Western legal systems the basic premise is that you MAY do anything that is not explicitly FORBIDDEN, while Sharia attempts to apply a the Halal/Haram binary system to every walk of life. What is not Halal or explicitly ALLOWED if either Haram, FORBIDDEN or "pending evaluation". Everything that is "pending evaluation" is to be viewed with suspicion. I believe this says alot about the systemic lack of innovation in Muslim areas.

Halal/Haram is actually not binary, you may be misinformed, there's also Makrooh which brings in the contextual element to the system. Also what is Haram may not be haram under different circumstances, just an FYI.

Now, believe it or not, there isnt one version of Sharia, there are many. the one you're exposed to the most would obviously be the one you see on the news the most. The boring ones with volumes of jurisprudence dont make the cut, I'll admit they're too boring for me as well.

Also just because something is different vs a legal western system does not automatically makes it bad either, it's just another way.

4, It is the duty of every Muslim to point and call out un-Islamic behavior if they see it and attempt to correct it. This is the ultimate Orwellian control, it DESTROYS dissent. Even in the WORST totalitarian regimes dissidents could retreat to the safety of their nuclear families. In this system, it is this nuclear family that is often the worst prison guard.

I dont agree with this. Prophet in fact had constitution written up for State of Medina which was a multi-religious ethnic city in consultation with its inhabitants. If you're going Orwellian, you dont write constitutions, you wave your Holy book and get to it.


Also, you follow law of the land, that's the rule, Sharia or no.

5, Yeah this is what it is. Again explicitly stated in the Koran and Hadith. You REALLY need to bend over backwards to understand this in a metaphorical sense, especially if one employs a literalist reading. Come to think of it, regular Joe Blows are not even allowed to interpret the Koran for themselves, they must seek out the counsel of an Imam, which by the way, can be almost anyone who has a bit of charisma and claims to have an understanding of the scriptures.

Not really, if you go through it, so many times, so many times, Quran points out to the reader to use your head and common sense to understand some things, basically, dont be an idiot. If you're confused, you go to educated and well learned scholars to figure things out, not to the local Imam who is soliciting the votes and charitiy (read: Election campaign donations) for the big politician imam.

These few simple arguments of course are considered outrageous heresies by even the mainstream. The biggest problem we have though, is that you couldn't even agree with them even if you wanted to, because being from Pakistan, it would seriously put your personal safety at risk. I can't blame you.

There is no harm in discourse, I'm not a nutcase who'll fume over this, I'm actually glad that you talked about Hadiith and Koran differently and not as one piece. I disagree with your points not because of personal safety at risk but because of the reasons I mentioned above. I also agree that how I see things, others may not, and some may very clearly and utterly not see any room for discourse and that I admit that we have a big problem.

The way the Prophet is scrutinised, often with a prebuilt agenda, and if we were hold other big personalities to the same scrutiny, you'd be surprised.

Churchill is a hero to alot in western world, right? Yet, he was a war monger, a racist and starved millions to death in British India. But, again, I dont want to indulge too much in pre-colonial times.

Yet again, as I said to you, your enemy is not Koran or Prophet or the moderates, it's the extremists, and you and us have a common enemy, and again, it's the extremists and their interpretations. Offcourse, like in every society, you'll have shades of moderates too. But again, I know you dont like Merkel that much, but in a heartbeat, you'd pick Merkel over any neo-Nazis taking over. You see, I have far more reasons to be pissed at these guys then you will ever or hopefully ever have too.

Everything is not black and white my friend, you will find solution and freinds are in grey.

We do have a fundamental difference that you're an Atheist, I do believe in a higher power, but I dont nor I will ever hold that on you, at the end of the day, I'm not the judge of you by my own believes

Regarding the interpretations not catching up with times, it's a sound criticism, one that points to the pause of 'interpretations' in Islam after a certain point in time, it's the classical battle of philosophy vs orthodoxy I guess, one the western world suffered from during the dark ages of Europe.

[Shahenshah]

Ty, the forum is bugged, Samus upto no good