35 replies to this topic

[DarkFox]

So our President in his infinite wisdom decided to ban a group of people from serving in the military; that group being transgenders

 

 

Source

 

And another one

 

 

 

[ccabal86]

I will say that I'm a bit ambiguous on the whole trans issue. For one thing, it's blown WAY out of proportion for something that affects 0.4% of the population.

While I obviously think they should have exactly the same rights as a cis-gendered person, e.g. They should be able to take up whatever job they wish, I fiercely oppose anything that would have the 99.6% of us bend over backwards to protect some snowflake's feelings. These include trans-bathrooms, gender-neutral bathrooms, special pronouns, abolishing the "sex" field in IDs and such. Just pick a fucking toilet you're comfortable with and use that one. If you get PTSD from not being able to decide then use a fucking diaper. And don't get me started on the special pronouns. Hir? Xir? Are you an alien or something? They? Who? You and the voices in your head? Fucking ridiculous.

[DarkFox]

I will say that I'm a bit ambiguous on the whole trans issue. For one thing, it's blown WAY out of proportion for something that affects 0.4% of the population.

While I obviously think they should have exactly the same rights as a cis-gendered person, e.g. They should be able to take up whatever job they wish, I fiercely oppose anything that would have the 99.6% of us bend over backwards to protect some snowflake's feelings. These include trans-bathrooms, gender-neutral bathrooms, special pronouns, abolishing the "sex" field in IDs and such. Just pick a fucking toilet you're comfortable with and use that one. If you get PTSD from not being able to decide then use a fucking diaper. And don't get me started on the special pronouns. Hir? Xir? Are you an alien or something? They? Who? You and the voices in your head? Fucking ridiculous.

 

 

The thing is we shouldn't take away rights from people because they think they are the wrong gender. There is no medical reason to justify it and I am sure they believe it is like the military didn't allow women to serve. These people want to serve their country and the president who claimed to support them. In my research there was no case of them asking for special treatment save for the operations to cross into the other gender, which could be justified in removing from coverage. I see no issue on them being allowed to serve.

[ccabal86]

This, I agree with 100%. Unfortunately here, like on so many other issues, nuance seems to be lost on pretty much everyone. Why can't we have a rational middle ground for a change?

[Samus]

While I obviously think they should have exactly the same rights as a cis-gendered person, e.g. They should be able to take up whatever job they wish, I fiercely oppose anything that would have the 99.6% of us bend over backwards to protect some snowflake's feelings. These include trans-bathrooms, gender-neutral bathrooms, special pronouns, abolishing the "sex" field in IDs and such. Just pick a fucking toilet you're comfortable with and use that one. If you get PTSD from not being able to decide then use a fucking diaper. And don't get me started on the special pronouns. Hir? Xir? Are you an alien or something? They? Who? You and the voices in your head? Fucking ridiculous.

 

yeah this shit fucking annoying,

 

but like wtf is even a cis-gendered person, i'm so lost in all of this. why can't we just be males & females

[Davian]

Good. If we can't tell what gender they are, we can't tell if they're the enemy or not.

[ccabal86]

 

While I obviously think they should have exactly the same rights as a cis-gendered person, e.g. They should be able to take up whatever job they wish, I fiercely oppose anything that would have the 99.6% of us bend over backwards to protect some snowflake's feelings. These include trans-bathrooms, gender-neutral bathrooms, special pronouns, abolishing the "sex" field in IDs and such. Just pick a fucking toilet you're comfortable with and use that one. If you get PTSD from not being able to decide then use a fucking diaper. And don't get me started on the special pronouns. Hir? Xir? Are you an alien or something? They? Who? You and the voices in your head? Fucking ridiculous.

 

yeah this shit fucking annoying,

 

but like wtf is even a cis-gendered person, i'm so lost in all of this. why can't we just be males & females

 

 

To be completely fair, there is an array of medically legitimate sex-related disorders that can lead to all sorts of intersex conditions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorders_of_sex_development

 

I can really sympatize with these people, living with rare genetic and medical conditions, must be very difficult.

 

But when it comes to transsexuality (which is a GENDER and not a SEX), you are verging on mental disorder territory. As I see it:

 

1. If a person is (for example) male, is AWARE of this fact, but chooses to live as a female, then so be it. It's PERSONAL CHOICE.
    
2. If a person is male, but is CONVINCED that he is actually a female, living in a male body, then somethig isn't right

If you disagree with 2, then let me ask you a couple of questions. Would you consider me crazy, if I SICERELY BELIEVED that I was a woman? No? Ok. What if I were to tell you that I'm convinced that I'm actually a cat. A table? The reincarnation of David Bowie? An entity without a phsysical body?

 

If you answered YES to any of those questions, then please explain how did you draw your distinction.

[hilowe]

Is there a more nuanced middle ground that could have been reached, rather than a complete ban? Absolutely.

 

However, the sole purpose of the US military is to go destroy whatever they are pointed at.  Anything that impairs that ability essentially disqualifies people from being able to serve.  My son actually has a disqualifying reason, and he's 13.  http://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/disqualifiers-medical-conditions.html  Only reason I'm willing to say that anywhere is because nobody will ever be able to guess what the reason is because of the number of disqualifying reasons.  Hell, even if I wasn't too old to join, I have a few disqualifying reasons (the nicest one is hearing loss).

 

 

Now, my understanding of the reasoning behind this had to do with the transitioning surgeries that Obama required the military to cover.  No research on this, but I remember hearing that once someone starts that process they are non-deployable for 18 months if there are no complications, due to the doctors follow ups and medication that is required.  Requires someone else to go overseas to cover the position/duty that would have been covered by the transgender soldier.  I never served, but remember being told that the typical minimum commitment that a soldier signs up for is 3-4 years (can definitely be longer, depends on exact circumstances, and soldiers can re-up at the end of that initial commitment).  So, if the transgender soldier doesn't have any complications, they are non-deployable to do the one thing that the military needs to be able to do for almost half of the time that they signed up to serve.

 

So, like I said above, is there a more nuanced middle ground? Yeah, I see it right there with what I just wrote.  Have the military and VA not cover transitioning surgeries, and transgender soldiers are allowed to serve.

[Samus]

If a person is male, but is CONVINCED that he is actually a female, living in a male body, then somethig isn't right If you disagree with 2, then let me ask you a couple of questions. Would you consider me crazy, if I SICERELY BELIEVED that I was a woman? No? Ok. What if I were to tell you that I'm convinced that I'm actually a cat. A table? The reincarnation of David Bowie? An entity without a phsysical body?

 

People have complicated something so simple into a major network of ifs and buts.

 

A woman is a female.

A female is a human being that can produce egg cells.

 

Male human beings saying they feel like a "woman" trapped in a mans body is just stupid to me.

 

how do they know what it feels like to be a woman if their body has never and will never produce egg cells - a very distinct characteristic specific only to females.

 

it's bs to me

[iSocialism]

First. serving in the US armed forces is not a right, so no rights are being taken away. You may consider it discrimination, but with a little stats and studies you can show no discrimination is in play.

 

The reason this is such a big deal now, is because of two things. Follow the money, any politics any where, you can find the motives by following the money. These surgeries are not cheap, and the military is getting force to do some, as has been presented above.

The second thing which is way worse now, is Republican VS Democrat. If it's sponsor by the Rep. it will be heavily opposed by the Dems. If the Dems sponsor something it will be opposed by the Rep, but also heavy supported by the Democrat voters as a truth. Republican will fight with each other over issues, while democrats just go with whatever is being presented.

[onbekende]

I dislike the misuse of chemistry vocabulary, in due time people in school during science classes won't even know what cis/trans even means in a chemistry related way

 

 

 

So, like I said above, is there a more nuanced middle ground? Yeah, I see it right there with what I just wrote.  Have the military and VA not cover transitioning surgeries, and transgender soldiers are allowed to serve.

 

^^ I am behind this, it is mainly an non-essentional procedure (if it is essentional, for example when said person has severe psychotic breakdowns due to mismatch of brain <=> body, I'd question that persons POSSIBLE total commitment to the job).

 

What is funnier is that during this entire debacle, it comes out that in 10y of providing/paying for such procedures it would have cost less then 1 year of viagra perscriptions. And while no doubt there would be same "essentional procedure" cases with the viagra, it paints the perspective around the whole deal. That and this all kicked off after Manning, doubt many GOPers even knew transgender excisted before that...

[hilowe]

 

What is funnier is that during this entire debacle, it comes out that in 10y of providing/paying for such procedures it would have cost less then 1 year of viagra perscriptions. And while no doubt there would be same "essentional procedure" cases with the viagra, it paints the perspective around the whole deal. That and this all kicked off after Manning, doubt many GOPers even knew transgender excisted before that...

 

I'm curious where this number came from?  Especialy the 10 year number you've got, because I thought Obama changed this in June 2016 (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/26/transgender-military-ban-how-the-policy-could-impact-current-troops-240987)

 

I'd also be careful about studies.  I remember reading (but not researching this) that there was a study of the number of transgender soldiers in the military done by the Obama administration and the anticipated costs of covering the transitioning surgery, but it only accounted for active duty soldiers, and did not include military reserves and national guard.  Writing this last sentence made me question my memory of what I read.  Reason is, I'm not familiar with guard benefits, so I'm not sure if they receive VA benefits.  The military is a federal resource, while national guard is a state resource that can be called up for federal service on an as needed basis, VA is a federal resource.

[onbekende]

Neither recall the origin, thou obvious found it an overblown comparison anyway. It was about projected costs (transgender side) vs current costs (viagra side).

 

And the best lawyer would just take that into a "perspective" rant about %males vs %trans >_>

[HackSlash]

I've had to do a bit of serious thinking before I chimed in on this topic.  I have an opinion on Transgendered persons serving, and I'm very passionate about it.  I'm going to say some things that you may not like, that you may not agree with.  But I really don't care. 

Some of you know what I am, some more of you don't.  For the record, I am active duty military.  I am a member of the Canadian Armed Forces.

When iSocialism pointed out that serving in the military is  privilege, not a right.  He is absolutely correct.

When I think of what I had to go through to earn the privilege to call my self a soldier, to be one of the select to stand and defend the rights of each and everyone of my fellow citizens.  Not everyone can do it.  I put my life on hold for over two years to earn the right to wear the uniform I do.  It was one of the hardest things I've had to do.  

I am so proud that I earned the title of soldier.

I am so proud that I can wear my uniform.

If you are too fat that you can't run the length of yourself, then you have no business wearing a uniform.

If you can't see past the colour of someones skin, then you have no business wearing a uniform.

If you can't see past someones religion (or lack thereof), then you have no business wearing a uniform.

If you can't see past someones sexuality, then you have no business wearing a uniform.

One of the proudest moments in my service to date is when I stopped some dude from beating the ever loving shit out of a brat who called me a murderer and spit on me.  Because that's what it is to be a soldier.  To stand and defend.  To do what's right no matter the cost.

When I saw that blow dried orange baboon, that demagogue, the idiot you've elected as President, ban Transgendered persons from serving in the military.  It filled me with disgust.  How dare someone who has never worn his country's uniform talk about how these individuals will affect the "operational readiness" of the military.

What the fuck does he know? 

The senior leadership accepts that a significant portion of the military will be non-deployable.  I, myself am DAG Yellow.   That has more to do with the unit I'm employed in, than anything else.  I work with a number of people who fall into the same category.  Whether its because they have a TCAT or a PCAT. 

Some of the people I work with have those categories, they are still able to perform their duties.  One person I work with has a fucked up shoulder, be she is still able to run 10k every single day, she is a very professional, and a dedicated soldier  Should she be discharged?

If you get pregnant, you immediately become DAG Yellow for nearly two years. 

So, as long as a transgendered person does not violate the Universality of Service, who gives a damn.

The reason why the senior leadership accepts that a number of us will be non-deployable is they are reluctant to see that investment walk out the door.   I am a QL5, PLQ qualified Corporal(4)(s) Supply Technician.  The government has invested over a million dollars in my training thus far.  I still have my QL6, ILQ, and ALQ to complete....that's just my career courses.  Unless one of us breeches Universality of Service, they don't want to see that investment, that experience walk out the door.

Which is why they will accept the 18 months it takes to for a transgendered person to complete the process.

Here's something for you to consider, the same things that are being said about Transgendered people being allowed to serve openly, were the same things that were said about Homosexuals being allowed to serve openly, were the same things that were said about African-Americans serving.

Here's something else.  Transgendered persons have always served.  Those veterans, the Honoured Dead you venerate on Remembrance Day (Nov 11), those heroes, those young men and women who paid the ultimate sacrifice for your freedom.  Some of those heroes were Transgendered. 

I have had the privileged of serving along side a transgendered soldier.  He's an awesome guy, and it didn't bother me in the least.  To be frank, it bothered none of us.

If it doesn't bother us, then what the hell is the problem?

The only question we ask is this "Can I depend on you?" 

Will you have my back?  When I hurt, will you help me.  When I'm down and bleeding out, screaming for help, will you come and get me?

If you can answer yes, then who gives a fiddler's fuck what you do or what you are.

I don't care if you are Transgendered.

I don't care you are Gay or Lesbian.

I don't care if you are in to BDSM.

I don't care if you are an adult baby.

I don't care if you write My Little Pony Erotica. (Funny story, a buddy of mine is in the Navy and one of his shipmates does this).

I don't care if you dress up as a fox and frequent Furry Conventions.

I don't care what you are, what you're into as long as you are are happy, safe and within the bounds of law.

All I ask, "Can I depend on you?"

[Lysistrata]

When I saw that blow dried orange baboon, that demagogue, the idiot you've elected as President, ban Transgendered persons from serving in the military. It filled me with disgust. How dare someone who has never worn his country's uniform talk about how these individuals will affect the "operational readiness" of the military. What the fuck does he know?

I see you are a proud Canadian soldier, but you forgot one important thing in the rundown of things that disqualify you from service.

 

If you can't follow the chain of command. If you have a problem with the rules. If you do not respect your commanding officers. If you do not respect your Commander in Chief. If you can't see past your own hatred for the man elected to command the entire armed forces, then you have no business wearing a uniform.

 

Seriously... if you were active duty US Military, and you said something like this about the President of the United States... the Commander in Chief of the entire US Military... I would report you... they would find you... and they would discharge you.

 

They teach you in the military that you salute the rank, not the man. I'm glad you are a Canadian today.

 

"What the fuck does he know?" ... much more than any of us.

[HackSlash]

Of all the points I made, this is what you've chosen to respond to.

 

Did I say I don't respect my Chain of Command?

Did I say I have a problem with the rules?

Short, but correct answer is no.

 

I will obey, without question, every single lawful order I am given.  My personal objections mean nothing.  That's what I promised to do when I enlisted.

 

Do I despise Trump, with out question, yes I do.  He is the antithesis of everything I stand for.  Don't believe me, why don't you have a look at this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/iwillprotectyou-campaign_us_567a5126e4b0b958f658bae3

 

Those people are true soldiers.

You state that if I were active duty US military, you'd report me and have me discharged.  No they wouldn't.  The most they'd do is take the vowels out of my last name.

As a citizen of a democratic nation, I am entitled to hold whatever opinion I care to.  As long as that opinion reflects the values of the society which I serve.

I also noticed the disdain you heap on me because I am a Canadian soldier.  Here's a thought, why don't you ask a Marine what they think of us. 

 

Lysistrata, in all honesty, I don't want to make an enemy of you.  I can and do respect the fact that you like Trump.  Just remember that I'll defend your right to hold those opinions.

Edited by HackSlash, 03 September 2017 - 04:47 AM.

[Robert2424]

Trumps twitter is Trumps twitter. Best leave that thing alone. Wait for official announcements and so on. 

[Samus]

Trumps twitter is Trumps twitter. Best leave that thing alone. Wait for official announcements and so on. 

lol Trump twitter is his official Twitter. It can't be any more "official" than coming from the man himself.

If it's on his twitter, it's official

[ccabal86]

Unfortunately yes. There are some jobs where there is no such thing as a private opinion. Typically the case with diplomats and politicians. They can say whatever they want after they no longer hold an office.

But as long as they hold the office, their words = policy

[Lysistrata]

I also noticed the disdain you heap on me because I am a Canadian soldier. Here's a thought, why don't you ask a Marine what they think of us. Lysistrata, in all honesty, I don't want to make an enemy of you. I can and do respect the fact that you like Trump. Just remember that I'll defend your right to hold those opinions.

You will never be my enemy. There is no chance of that... unless of course Canada decides to declare war on the US. I never said anything bad about Canada, or Canadian soldiers... I did point out that you are a Canadian soldier, and not likely to face any consequences for what you say on social media about our President. If you are US Military, you may have a problem doing that.

 

Progressives love to exploit, spotlight, and use children in an effort to pull heartstrings over to advance their agenda. To Conservatives, it's a pretty disgusting tactic, because we cannot run our country on emotions. A big part of their agenda is open borders and a global one world government. The election of Donald Trump has really hurt their movement.

 

This puff piece from Puffington Post is an example of how Progressives use children. Notice first when it was published... December 2015, almost a year before Donald Trump was elected President. It's not hard to get US Military to come to the aid of a crying 8 year old on social media, but if little crying 8 year old Sophia was brought into the US illegally by her parents, she will be deported along with her law breaking parents, and nothing Huffington Post can do will stop that, because that's the law.

 

They didn't do this for little crying Sophia. This was an attack piece against the campaign of Donald Trump for President, and anyone who falls for this shit is a fool. If little crying Sophia is an American citizen, or playing with her Barbie in Dallas as a legal resident, little Sophia has absolutely nothing to be crying about. If her parents are illegal aliens then little crying Sophia will be kicked right back where they came from. It's the law... if we don't like the laws, we can change them, but we cannot ignore them.

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with the US Military position on modified humans. If you want my opinion on modified humans, I can get into that... but my opinion has nothing to do with US Military policy. The President makes the rules on advice from the Joint Chiefs, and the US Military follows the rules. If Americans don't like their leaders, we can change them. Canadians have their own military, their own leaders, and their own opinions. I don't care how you run things there.