54 replies to this topic

[onbekende]

I'd guess their current PR staff finally considered being obstructionists in secret was less viable then being obstructionists in public, cause offcourse a prevention of a combined publication made by atleast 13 different agencies would have looked bad (cause good luck keeping that report a secret in the first place, in part cause it is mandatory by law).

 

You think an average temperature change of 1.8 °F on a global scale is "stable"?

 

Unsure if I even want to continue replying after such a gem.

 

But alas, I am clearly a sucker for continue to do this.

 

Your entire basis of "hands up, lets do nothing" is cause the word "prediction" is present. Not even God handles in absolutes (his agents do, but thats another debate) and you damn well know that the current usage of "prediction" is about how bad it will be instead of "will it actually happen or not?"

 

The second basis is a "doesn't affect me, fuck it", well geez thanks! Stop calling yourself christian then cause you obviously care zilch for your nameless neighbour. Does this mean I don't want you to care for your family and loved ones? Again not even God handles in absolutes, perhaps we should get you a black&white filter so you can go be absolute about anything and everything.

 

The third basis is the need for a "fixx-it-all" deal you like for this problem. You want a short, concise and harmless solution to xerox-out this entire global issue from ever having excisting. Well let me also get you a rainbow-coloured filter cause clearly you think fantasy is reality and complex problems outside of human scope to predict in a Newtonian fashion are non-existant.

 

 

PS. Also some irony for you:

The ozone layer hole (with added irony that it is uninamously linked to human interaction, not even climate sceptics deny it was CFK related) has been diminishing due to global policy change to get away from CFK usage. This is a piece of policy that works and it shows yearly in the diminishing of the hole above Antarctica!

The extra irony is that the hole reaches peak "emptyness" in late Southern Hemisphere winter due to various interacting chemical and physical processes (I won't bore you, but basically you need the cold to easier form clouds in which the ozone is broken down by CFK related chlorine and bromine) but due to the heating of the planet (aka everywhere) the Antarctic winters are less cold and as such less clouds are formed in which the ozone destruction is catalysed.

Basically another complex side-effect to global warming is actually "helping" to fix something we humans previously messed up (and before you get on your high horse, this "aid" is expected to be fluctional depending on El Ñino coupled with continued presence of CFK's in the upper atmosphere for centuries)

[Lysistrata]

Mandatory by Obama law... those have seen many changes over the past year, this one they decided wasn't even worth the fight.

 

How many times do I have to tell you... I AM AGNOSTIC! I have nothing to do with religion whatsoever.

 

Ozone, hemispheres, predictions, CFK... what the fuck is that? Chicken Fried Kentucky? Nobody cares. Not even the hypocrite millionaire liberals that continue to buy beachfront property while they scream about oceans rising. The only real thing you said was... "this "aid" is expected to be fluctional depending on El Ñino coupled with continued blah blah blah..." So it's all about global redistribution of wealth. I thought so. Well my friend... we are not paying for fake damages that have not happened in order to advance your socialist dream of a one world government. We don't care about your fantasy global disaster scheme.

[onbekende]

Mandatory by Obama law... those have seen many changes over the past year, this one they decided wasn't even worth the fight.

.
Signed into law by President George H.W. Bush on November 16, 1990

 

Why yes, this is all Obama's fault...
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How many times do I have to tell you... I AM AGNOSTIC! I have nothing to do with religion whatsoever.

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I was merely stating that nothing is absolute, I don't care about your religious affiliation. Some of the more outspoken "hoax" people are thou.
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Ozone, hemispheres, predictions, CFK... what the fuck is that? Chicken Fried Kentucky? Nobody cares. Not even the hypocrite millionaire liberals that continue to buy beachfront property while they scream about oceans rising. The only real thing you said was... "this "aid" is expected to be fluctional depending on El Ñino coupled with continued blah blah blah..." So it's all about global redistribution of wealth. I thought so. Well my friend... we are not paying for fake damages that have not happened in order to advance your socialist dream of a one world government. We don't care about your fantasy global disaster scheme.

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Guess I indeed spoke to sciency, pardon me.

 

If you did some checking in on what the ozone layer is (and its purpose), also my mistake, it seems they are called "ChloroFluoroCarbons" in English (the K is from the dutch word for carbons). You might even start to care about the ozone layer if it actually fanished (see, only care when it hits you personally!) if we hadn't stopped usage of said CFC's andsuccesfully (as the entire world!) put a stop to everyone getting melanoma's from just walking outside for 5min (yes I am being hyperbole).

 

And geez, stop speaking about the "boogey-money-man" will ya, alot of these billionaires are activly helping to combat these changes apart from the select few who indeed do nothing but hamper any progress in fear of "cutting our paycheck" (look up Koch for more details).

 

I never said anything about "redistribution of wealth", let alone a global variant. Heck if you think that is a redistribution of wealth, lets stop any foreighn aid aswell, cause clearly all that money just goes straight to the poor african so he can light that stack of $20's on fire to warm himself at night...

 

I can give you a simple solution even to this "fantasy global disaster scheme", cut yourself out of the world and enjoy blissfull ignorance! Perhaps even get a fancy hat, I hear aluminum is in fashion!

 

 

 

As for another try at this all, I thought of a nice analogy:

We are currently stading on a railroad track with a cargo train heading our way. We see and hear it heading our way and understand that it can't stop in time (to heavy and to fast), this train is "global warming". At the moment (our current time) the train is both getting heavier (more greenhouse gasses) AND the train is speeding up (higher end temperature).
What scientists warn about is the impending crash of said train (global warming) against us (the earth) on the tracks. There is no discussion anymore about stopping the train from hitting us!
Scientists and enviromentalists want to both lighten the train (reduce greenhouse gasses emitions) and slow the train down (smaller eventual temperature rise). All such actions require global policy (and thought) changes to get this train to a more managble speed which we can then survive by adding (pro-active!) protection inbetween us and this train, this means global support for regions which would not only take the brunt of the train (rising sea levels, more extreme weather, ...) but are also less capable of getting their own protection from the uncomming train.

[Lysistrata]

Yes, one President was suckered into signing a law in order to keep us informed about global warming... then a later President abused the power, and allowed the EPA to declare Carbon Dioxide a poisonous gas that needed regulation. We exhale Carbon Dioxide, not Chlorine. Our current President decided to withdraw this insane abuse of power. He has my vote for reelection.

 

I have lived my entire life in Western United States. I have never heard anything about this Melanoma epidemic you speak of. My wife and I have fun when I tell her to drive safe. She always comes back with how she has never crashed. My response is always that she doesn't crash because I always tell her to drive safe. See how that works? I have literally spent years out in the sun. I don't have skin cancer. It's not because someone passed a law. It's because I do not have the genetic DNA to develop Melanoma.

 

I would be in favor of cutting off all foreign aid.

 

This is not an analogy... this is reality. I am in my office. I am not on a railroad track. There is no overloaded cargo train coming at me. I don't hear a train. I don't see a train. I have heard the case for the calamitous climate change catastrophe, and digested all the information. I have decided that all these zealot environmentalists are full of shit. I don't care. Did you get it this time?

[Yehom]

At this point I would just stop trying @onbekende. As long as it doesn't affect Lys in either his feelings or his wallet, he doesn't care. To him even something as wide scaled of a problem like global warning (reality check, the US still is part of this world, believe it or not) will leave Lys cold if HE isn't directly influenced by its effects. Some people just have their head too far up their ass. Arguments made by onbekende are only valid if they 100% apply to Lys or he either don't want to relate or just ignore it completely. I would safe my breath on this one as there is no sensible argument here to make to get through that thick skull. 

[Lysistrata]

As long as it doesn't affect Lys in either his feelings or his wallet, he doesn't care.

BINGO!

something as wide scaled of a problem like global warning

That is completely your personal belief. I believe differently. There is no solid evidence to support either belief. You can say over and over that it's settled science, but that does not make it so. The planet gets hotter... that's cool, adapt. The planet gets colder... that's cool, adapt. Everything stays the same... that's cool, adapt. If the oceans rise and flood the coast... fucking move you idiot. Live your life and let other people live theirs. You have a problem with something, that's your problem, not mine. Quit blaming others for your own paranoid beliefs. I have 4 children in their 30's... I've probably consumed more arguments about global warming than you, and the common thread in every solution is taking wealth from one institution and giving it to another. That's not a solution, and it's total BS.

[onbekende]

Yes, one President was suckered into signing a law in order to keep us informed about global warming... then a later President abused the power, and allowed the EPA to declare Carbon Dioxide a poisonous gas that needed regulation. We exhale Carbon Dioxide, not Chlorine. Our current President decided to withdraw this insane abuse of power. He has my vote for reelection.

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And I guess anything that comes from our bodies is completly and utterly safe? If it even is so "safe", why are we exhauling it then? For funzies?

Why yes CO₂ is both a harmfull molecule AND an essentional component to our ecosystem (same to chlorine btw, even better as an example cause our body MAKES HCl, a very dangerous acid!). This doesn't negate its inherent negative attributes. You wouldn't call water completely safe either now do you? Properly handled sure, but I do belief drowning is a big issue for humans...

Your current President has not only alienated the entire scienctific world but also put in enough quacks to seriously harm everyone involved. The EPA was founded to combat profit-based economical ventures that would wreck social havoc due to polution by X product being handled in an unsafe way. Regardless of what X might be, if it is found to be harmfull you should be morally obligated to keep such harm away from anyone (and anything!) in the most optimal but stll reasonable method (we can't be 100% "invisible" on our planet, but I damn sure want to get as cloe to that number as possible).
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I have lived my entire life in Western United States. I have never heard anything about this Melanoma epidemic you speak of. My wife and I have fun when I tell her to drive safe. She always comes back with how she has never crashed. My response is always that she doesn't crash because I always tell her to drive safe. See how that works? I have literally spent years out in the sun. I don't have skin cancer. It's not because someone passed a law. It's because I do not have the genetic DNA to develop Melanoma.

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Who said anything about a current melanome epidemic? I merely stated that a complete breakdown of our ozone layer would have meant that anything walking on our Earth would be subject to dangerous high levels of UV radiation, not the ones that make you brown, the ones that destroy your DNA. Our scientific minds not only detected this issue, they also found the underlying cause AND got together with politicians and other policy crafters to adress said issue and work towards policies and laws to not only prevent further deterioration but also to help rectify current damage.

To tie it into your "safe driving" line, you are only interested in self-inflicted damage or what? Nothing about possible other variantions that might cause accidents (both other drivers but also enviromental conditions like icing or fog) which have a string of laws in place to help combat any possible damage during driving. If all you need is a "drive safe" notification, then by all means, let me get you a metal board, seats and a motor, see how you keep safe then...

Not all melanoma's have genetic dispositions (aka higher risk factors), but perhaps I should be happy that you heared something scientific?
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I would be in favor of cutting off all foreign aid.

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mkay
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This is not an analogy... this is reality. I am in my office. I am not on a railroad track. There is no overloaded cargo train coming at me. I don't hear a train. I don't see a train. I have heard the case for the calamitous climate change catastrophe, and digested all the information. I have decided that all these zealot environmentalists are full of shit. I don't care. Did you get it this time?

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I get that you don't get it, but I get that you don't get it because of insufficient critical information processing.

Is there over-shouting? Yes

Sadly over-shouting has become the go-to for any campaighn being brought towards the general public, coupled with our inherent desire for "disaster-tourism" you can't really blame the message being garbage just cause you don't like the noice it generates. Look past the hysterics and get to the bottom of it yourself.

As for not caring, can't help that, I can only be saddened by the influence it has on you or anyone that has stopped caring completly.
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At this point I would just stop trying @onbekende. As long as it doesn't affect Lys in either his feelings or his wallet, he doesn't care. To him even something as wide scaled of a problem like global warning (reality check, the US still is part of this world, believe it or not) will leave Lys cold if HE isn't directly influenced by its effects. Some people just have their head too far up their ass. Arguments made by onbekende are only valid if they 100% apply to Lys or he either don't want to relate or just ignore it completely. I would safe my breath on this one as there is no sensible argument here to make to get through that thick skull.

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I can't stop caring cause it would only make me the same as him about it. Same way I can both be annoyed at someone tryong to influence someone but I can't blame their act itself.

If he wants to ignore my message that is for him to decide, but I shall not stop engaging in something I care about.
.

 

something as wide scaled of a problem like global warning

That is completely your personal belief. I believe differently. There is no solid evidence to support either belief. You can say over and over that it's settled science, but that does not make it so. The planet gets hotter... that's cool, adapt. The planet gets colder... that's cool, adapt. Everything stays the same... that's cool, adapt. If the oceans rise and flood the coast... fucking move you idiot. Live your life and let other people live theirs. You have a problem with something, that's your problem, not mine. Quit blaming others for your own paranoid beliefs. I have 4 children in their 30's... I've probably consumed more arguments about global warming than you, and the common thread in every solution is taking wealth from one institution and giving it to another. That's not a solution, and it's total BS.

 

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You do know that the entire current line about global warming is about ADAPTION towards the expected rise in temperature and its effects on our lifes on this earth. A part of this adaption is to change our influence on this phenomena to a minimum so our need for adaption isn't as high as feared might be needed.

Your entire dislike seems to be based on this preceived "taking wealth from ME to X" line that is just utter crap and clearly shows both your own egocentric viewpoint (which we all have, just not so "developed" >_>) and negates your thoughts about this being "BS".

[Lysistrata]

Wow, I thought this had run it's course. Once again you show nothing except the cold fact that you are the pristine, unvarnished, quintessential, definition of the modern Socialist, Progressive, Liberal, Democrat... choose your own label please, because I'm sick of them all... that will stop at nothing to achieve the ultimate goal of world domination, and everyone having to live the way you decree.

 

Where does this arrogance come from? Your own minds... that spin your thoughts into clusters of hate for anyone that doesn't believe the same way you do. When you can't win on the battlefield of ideas, you will resort to defamation, cheating, smear tactics, lies, name calling, theft, and utterly destroying the lives of anyone that stands in the way of your will. In short, you just think you're better than everyone else. You're not.

 

It brings me great comfort that you're a Belgian, and it doesn't make any difference to me, or my country, what you think. To me, you are a Progressive, and what Progressives do best is trivialize the momentous, and complicate the obvious.

 

My position has not changed one bit. I believe in living my life to the fullest, and doing exactly what I wish to do at all times. If your brilliant scientists can come up with better and more efficient ways for me to do that... I'll buy it.

[onbekende]

Well the slowness of my reply was more cause my wifi decided to play "which second in this next 5 min will I stay connected!" >_>

 

Why you think I exhibit any of these traits is a mystery, let alone you lumping any possible ideology not your own on 1 huge pile. I have no idea where any of such hostility comes from, both towards me or my thoughts voiced. (Let alone anyone seemingly at odds with your thought process...)

 

This entire debate is founded in measurable facts but the future with its implications are up for debate (both scientifically as ideological).

 

I deliberately won't quote or reply to any specific comments made cause it is more than obvious that they will not only be ignored for their actual thoughts but also skewwed to fill in your already slanted stereotype of whatever "ideology" you think I follow.

 

I don't engage in a debate to press my view unto the other members, neither would I like for such a member to be present. What I like to get from a debate is not only an understanding of the opposing/different views but I also hope that the other members involved feel likewise and can get away from the debate with a sense of broader understanding.

[ccabal86]

Related to this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2017/11/13/thousands-of-scientists-issue-bleak-second-notice-to-humanity/?utm_term=.f5552dde5fe7

 

I know, I know, Whashington Post. Everything in there is just liberal propaganda, with no factual basis whatsoerver.

 

I eventually opted not to reply. I had 1/3rd of a post typed up, then I said fuck it, I would not waste my time by wrting the other 2/3rd

[Lysistrata]

Why you think I exhibit any of these traits is a mystery, let alone you lumping any possible ideology not your own on 1 huge pile. I have no idea where any of such hostility comes from, both towards me or my thoughts voiced. (Let alone anyone seemingly at odds with your thought process...)

Sorry for my delay, I was making money... so allow me try to explain it for you.

 

I'm just me. I'm minding my own business, I'm not hurting anyone, and I'm not looking for an argument. I'm just living my life and raising my family the best I can. I am then accosted by a fanatic liberal in a Che Guevara t-shirt and a Greenpeace hat, yelling in my face about climate change, accusing me of murdering animals, and future generations of children. It's been going on for decades. Sorry if I have zero patience left for any type of conversation.

 

If you really believe this stuff, the part that went horribly wrong for you was politicizing it. If you want half the people to not listen to you, then the first thing you do is tie yourself to Progressives. Now you have alienated yourself from half the population. Next you need to falsify documentation to support your proposal. Lie to the right people. Now try to legislate it. You want to make it law that entire industries are eliminated. Thousands of jobs would vanish. When we say no to that... you use appointed government agencies to do it anyway... without caring what the people want, and without consent of our representatives in Congress.

 

So yeah, there is no discussion anymore. The answer is NO! Period.

[onbekende]

1) Fanatics come from all sides, I can only hope you show as much disdain for anyone skewing a thoughtbase into the absurd. Nothing can be done on 1 ideology, no single idea is the end solution. Compromise and mutual understanding are the basis of our society and mankinds force in becoming the dominant species on this planet. Sure loudmouths will always be present, but to skew once own ideas just to be at odds with the shouters on the other side of your mutual made ravine is a contest in stupidity. To take a note from your "leftist fanatic liberal" stereotype, you do know that a Westboro Baptist signweaving "Thank god for dead soldiers" is an equal true "rightist fanatic conservative" stereotype yeah?

 

2) I think you are conflating idea platforms with strict political parties. Offcourse certain advocacy groups will allign with certain political parties, just as much as likeminded individuals will form advocacy groups to begin with. Both sides have entrenched political parties but the scientists themselfes weren't looking for such a thing, they just report their findings and make recommendations.

 

3) I have already previously stated that the US political spectrum is a farce, you have a locked 2 party system hovering on the right side of virtual any political spectrum used to quantify ideology (you guys are like only "left" on personal freedoms, with a twist I might add, but left nonetheless!). That any idea with a "label" automatically makes it inconceivable for "the other side" to even think about it is a loss to your very society and the idea of being a nation for all who are willing to follow its notions of democratic freedom.

 

4) Nearly anything mentioned can and will be flying right back in your face like a boomerang cause BOTH SIDES employ such tactics. Ignore the peasant rabble and just focus on the people who speak with authority on the subject. You would equally not care if a car mechanic starts berrating you about matters like plumbing, since he was not qualified to speak about it.

[Shahenshah]

Lys, our resident succesfull capitalist entrepreneur has deduced that there is no solid evidence of global warming over 1000s of scientists and decades of their work and research.

This is an equivalent of Donald Trump winning the AVN award for being the best female lead.

Jokes aside, Lys, maybe you're more of hands on person who'd like to see things for yourself, it's fair to have that kind of skepticism. Perhaps you live in part of the world that isn't affected yet by global warming, perhaps you could try and visit the areas that are?

[Lysistrata]

Shah! I have missed you!

 

I keep hearing about those "thousands of scientists", but I don't hear a thing from the millions of other scientists. It's like idiots that keep harping about the "6 million" that will lose their healthcare if we dump Obamacare, but they don't say a thing about the 300 million others that are getting screwed by it. A couple thousand scientists that receive a paycheck for supporting the climate change theory is a drop in the bucket compared to the millions of scientists that do not support it. I am hearing more that an actual increase in greenhouse effect would be a boon to the planet due to an increase in foliage production. Where are these areas that are affected by global warming?

[ccabal86]

Shah! I have missed you!

 

I keep hearing about those "thousands of scientists", but I don't hear a thing from the millions of other scientists. It's like idiots that keep harping about the "6 million" that will lose their healthcare if we dump Obamacare, but they don't say a thing about the 300 million others that are getting screwed by it. A couple thousand scientists that receive a paycheck for supporting the climate change theory is a drop in the bucket compared to the millions of scientists that do not support it. I am hearing more that an actual increase in greenhouse effect would be a boon to the planet due to an increase in foliage production. Where are these areas that are affected by global warming?

 

If there were "millions of scientists" who who would disagree with the "thousands" they would say it. This is not a situation where you claim the "silent majority" is on this or that opinion, because there is no such thing in science. There are only research findings which A) support or are against a theory. Available research overwhelmingly "support" climate change.

 

Yes, increased CO2 would theoretically boost foliage growth, unfortunately it can't manifest, because we are busily deforesting the planet at the same time. So there's that.

 

The effects of climate change manifests itself everywhere, but it is true that some areas are hit harder than others. Incidentally these areas are also that parts of the world that sucked to begin with. The mixture of these will eventually create unlivable conditions which these poor or failed states are ill equipped to deal with, and humans will start moving away. Away to places that do not need them, because all they could give in return is unskilled physical labor, which modern economies need less and less of.

[onbekende]

 

 

Yes, increased CO2 would theoretically boost foliage growth, unfortunately it can't manifest, because we are busily deforesting the planet at the same time. So there's that.

 

 

Well there is an uptick in jungle/forrest growth, mainly that the current greenery is indeed taking in more CO₂ then before (aka the foliage growth), this is because of greater availability of the CO₂ itself (It is related to this nifty sciency principle: Le Chatelier).

 

Sadly we are indeed cutting down on these excellent CO₂ sinks and the nasty effects of global warming will endanger current forrests/jungles aswell (desertification for example).

[Lysistrata]

If there were "millions of scientists" who who would disagree with the "thousands" they would say it. This is not a situation where you claim the "silent majority" is on this or that opinion, because there is no such thing in science. There are only research findings which A) support or are against a theory. Available research overwhelmingly "support" climate change.

The available research has been overwhelmingly altered to support climate change by thousands of scientists that make a living off billionaires that stand to make trillions from carbon offsets, solar panels, batteries, and windmills... if they can manage to criminalize the production and use of cheaper and more efficient energy sources. It's the same business model of organized crime. It's not a silent majority... It's a majority that does not care, or are they paid, to get involved.

Yes, increased CO2 would theoretically boost foliage growth, unfortunately it can't manifest, because we are busily deforesting the planet at the same time. So there's that.

You use a weak theory to counter a much stronger theory, and then dismiss the stronger theory as pointless by implying that any benefits will be destroyed by humans regardless. Sounds like you're saying "No matter what is done... we're fucked anyway".

The effects of climate change manifests itself everywhere, but it is true that some areas are hit harder than others. Incidentally these areas are also that parts of the world that sucked to begin with. The mixture of these will eventually create unlivable conditions which these poor or failed states are ill equipped to deal with, and humans will start moving away. Away to places that do not need them, because all they could give in return is unskilled physical labor, which modern economies need less and less of.

It doesn't matter if Death Valley gets hot and Mount Everest gets cold... no one lives there, and no one wants to live there. I believe this issue lives in the minds of people that have a false assumption about "fairness". To some people, it's not fair that I live in the USA, and others live in Afghanistan. They feel they have to support this fraud because it's a chance to level the playing field. Here's some breaking news... nothing is fair. The one complaining about something not being fair is the one that is too stupid, too slow, or too lazy. Nothing in life is fair.

 

The planet will take care of itself, the same way it's taken care of itself for billions of years. The starving people in Buttcrust Milvania are not my problem, nor is it my responsibility. I care about me and my family... and if everyone would do that, we all would have more fun during our very short and precious time breathing air in this wonderful life.

[onbekende]

Could probably quote half my posts here in responce to Lys, but I shall keep it to 1 quote:

 

 

 

I can give you a simple solution even to this "fantasy global disaster scheme", cut yourself out of the world and enjoy blissfull ignorance! Perhaps even get a fancy hat, I hear aluminum is in fashion!

[Lysistrata]

 

Could probably quote half my posts here in responce to Lys, but I shall keep it to 1 quote:

 

 

 

I can give you a simple solution even to this "fantasy global disaster scheme", cut yourself out of the world and enjoy blissfull ignorance! Perhaps even get a fancy hat, I hear aluminum is in fashion!

 

Typical Progressive.

 

Cry that the sky is falling, demand action, offer no solution, and pout about how no one pays attention to you.

 

I'm not the one trying to sell anything to you. You are the one trying to sell something to me. I'm not buying it.

[onbekende]

If we are offering no solutions, what are you crying about then?