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Santa Fe High School Shooting


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#41
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I think something I said earlier may have caused confusion. I believe a small school with one entrance, and much less staff, can teach 100 students, dedicating less time, and get remarkably better results, than busing 1,500 kids across town to a large school that has too much staff, for 8 hours every day. Schools are not day care centers, nannies, restaurants, or political activists.


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#42
Rand0m her0

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USA spending on education has been pretty much flat relative to the US's GDP since the 60s, and almost none of it is federal or even state expenses. Infact if we ignore the effects of the GI bill and the states increasing spending on tertiary education in the 60s and the collapse on spending during ww2, it's been close to flat as a percentage of GDP since some time around the late 30s.

 

 

federal expenses at their peak were something like 1% of the GDP, and that was at the height of the GI bill, money beyond well spent. It currently accounts for about 5% of all government expenses on education. Almost all of that small fraction of spending is dedicated towards providing funding for poor areas of the USA that wouldn't be able to adequately funding schooling. Think places like bug fuck nowhere kentucky.

 

State governments account for something a bit over a quarter, however almost all of that is on tertiary education.The remaining spending is funded and directed at the local level. And yes I'm aware that the US actually spending on 7% of it's GDP, however that extra funding is private money, not public and mostly a product of the shit show that is student loans in the USA. As well, part of the extra spending is because the education system in the US is so very decentralized. While we could get into a debate about that, the decentralization means there's a lot of duplicate spending and other issues that economies of scale would solve.

 

 

The ED has almost no say in educational policy. It rarely has anything to do about setting curriculum, and when it does it's mostly about establishing clear but broad guideline. For example they'll set guidelines to the rough effect of "by grade 5, your students should know how fractions work", and leave how to go about that to the local authorities. Even then it only does that as part of it's administrative role granted by congress, and that happened under bush junior.

 

the EDs job is mostly to collect statistical and other data about education in teh USA for the federal government and make that information for state and local authorities. Prior to it being implemented (and for the record, that was in 1867, it's just been combined and split with/from other parts of the cabinet over the last 150 years), education was something of a blackhole for tax payers. They might know what they were doing locally, but little information about how well they were doing  compared to others was available. The best, or at least most example of it's use in that role occurred during the space race. America found itself playing catchup and wanted to up it's game as far as STEM education went. the ED is why that could happen.

 

Past that, it's role in enforcement has to do with various federal laws around access to education and student privacy. No you can not sell students private data, yes you do need to let black kids attend your school, no you can not  have web cams and mics in school issued laptops and then use them to spy on the kids at home, no you can't cut this schools funding down to 10% of the rest of your school board, no you can't close down this school and  bus all the students there to another one four hours away, etc. America has proven time and again why it needs a federal department in that role.  They're also the organization congress has empowered to do shit like step on Corinthian Colleges.

 

Every single one of those is a real thing that happened in the last couple of years by the way, with the bonus of the web cam one resulting in the school board accidentally making child porn because of course it did.

 

The US has an extremely decentralized education system  (far more so than any other western nation). And whatever the benefits of local control, i'm certain you've seen examples of how spectacularly dumb local governments can get either out of standard stupid or basic corruption. Given the kind of damage that can do when we're talking about someones education , having a structure that can step in and clue bat people has proven invaluable to the USA. And the states have historically been quite happy to have the federal government handle that, since it means they don't need to do that work themselves (minus some of the states getting really pissy about desegregation, but nuts to that lot)
 


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#43
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Everything you said in this wall of text

I'm trying to say there are cheaper and more efficient ways to teach kids in a more secure setting so they don't get killed at school... and you type out all that nonsense about how we spend the same GDP on education since the 30's. This is why nothing gets done.


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#44
Rand0m her0

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no i'm pretty sure what you said was.

 

I don't believe our education system is anywhere near efficient. Since the Department of Education came to be, we continuously throw more and more money at the problem, and receive less and less positive results. What I have seen coming out of our public schools the past 20 years frightens me. Perfect example... 30 year old that has to be evicted from his parents house.
 
the role of the ED is not what you seem to think it is, control is highly local, spending is almost entirely local, the USA does not spend much more in the way of public funds than most other western nations, and spends about as much as it ever did over the last century.
 
% GDP is kinda an important metric for historical comparison. inflation and etc is a thing as i'm sure you know. America spends more total dollars than they did back in the days of 20 cent cheese burgers, but that's cause these are no longer the days of 20 cent cheese burgers.

Edited by Rand0m her0, 25 May 2018 - 01:17 AM.

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#45
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no i'm pretty sure what you said was.

No, I'm pretty sure I said we pay far too much money to have stupid kids that are getting killed in school.


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#46
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Edit: double post cause awful wifi
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#47
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I'm quite certain you implied that the federal government and the ED were the root of that. Imying it's the governments fault, that more local control would be better, that the issue started with the ED being "created" by LBJ, and so on . I felt that was worth addressing in detail.

Also I'm just going to completly ignore the "stupid kids" bit because *honestly*. That's old and trite enough to be a trope when Socrates whined about kids these days.
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#48
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Also I'm just going to completly ignore the "stupid kids" bit

Oh no... don't ignore that part, because it's the whole reason to send kids to school, and if fortunate enough to graduate they still don't know how to spell "work ethic", what country we fought against during the American Revolution, The difference between "Social" and "Socialist", that Abraham Lincoln was a Republican, or that seasonal changes in the weather will not kill us all.

 

I think they should be able to continue to not learn anything without a deranged snowflake coming to school with a gun.


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#49
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Sucks this happened. I live maybe 20 minutes from the area.

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#50
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I know how you feel. I live 5 minutes from the Mandalay Bay, Las Vegas.


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#51
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I haven't read the entire thread, but the gist of the current conversation seems to be protecting schools. My theory has always been better trained SROs. 

One SRO doesn't represent all of them (as one cop doesn't represent all cops), but there seems to be a huge problem wwith both SROs and Police being untrained for these situations. With how commonplace these are becoming, it seems training for these responses is a must. Timing is key, and these kids don't have to wait for a response force, SWAT, or another town/county's department.

A properly trained SRO should not have a problem with an emotionally-unstable, ill-trained, kid or young adult, with mom/dad's gun. The problem is, we don't have properly trained SROs. We have SROs, who are tasked with dealing with school fist fights, disruptions in the classroom, and standard things that prior to this point in history was the main problems an SRO was dealing with. I think it is time to add some sort of counter-response training to their plate. 

Do we need the degree that military gets? No, these SROs MIGHT in an unfortunate circumstance come across a lone, untrained teenager, not a heavily equipped military force. The degree of training should be something to just familiarize themselves with their school, understand how to move around there school to get from Point A to Point B as fast as possible, understanding where Point B is (where is the shooter), and neutralizing the nature Fight-Flight-Freeze aspect in them. As we seen in Florida, SROs are definitely susceptible to flight and freeze. These kids shouldn't have to put their faith in a SRO that doesn't have the proper training, and we shouldn't expect our SROs to respond like a SWAT unit without offering them the right tools to teach them.

That's my opinion, and I believe it could easily be implemented. I even brought it up to our city board and our elected Sheriff and they are really wanting to implement a training program for the local SROs here. Again, just my two cents.


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#52
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I hear you SeaBee, but if a messed up kid that wants to kill a bunch of people gets a gun inside the school, they have already failed.


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#53
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We will not solve the problems on the IRON forum, but I believe we live in a time where kids are growing up in a culture of no responsibility, low discipline, lack of respect for others, brutal social media, glorified violence, and an unfettered desire for instant gratification. We are failing the future, and I'm not saying all of them... it's just the small percentage that will sink the ship.

 

But would you agree that the root fr your given issue is PARENTS (and educators) and not CHILDREN?

 

And would like to add, said "small percentage" was probably always present, the media just makes it easier to hear about an incident happening more then 2 towns over.

 

I hear you SeaBee, but if a messed up kid that wants to kill a bunch of people gets a gun inside the school, they have already failed.

 

You wanna call failure on eac time shots are fired during a bank robbery?


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#54
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But would you agree that the root fr your given issue is PARENTS (and educators) and not CHILDREN? And would like to add, said "small percentage" was probably always present, the media just makes it easier to hear about

Yes... and a very good point.

You wanna call failure on eac time shots are fired during a bank robbery?

People that steal don't want to shoot. They just want something and then they run. Not the same thing at all.


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#55
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See, we can agree on stuff, we should blame parents before children on the childrens actions. (up until a point/age offcourse :D)

 

 

 

People that steal don't want to shoot. They just want something and then they run. Not the same thing at all.

 

People who want their grievances heard don't shoot either, you just can't consider that a 100% guarantee.


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#56
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I haven't read the entire thread, but the gist of the current conversation seems to be protecting schools. My theory has always been better trained SROs. 

One SRO doesn't represent all of them (as one cop doesn't represent all cops), but there seems to be a huge problem wwith both SROs and Police being untrained for these situations. With how commonplace these are becoming, it seems training for these responses is a must. Timing is key, and these kids don't have to wait for a response force, SWAT, or another town/county's department.

A properly trained SRO should not have a problem with an emotionally-unstable, ill-trained, kid or young adult, with mom/dad's gun. The problem is, we don't have properly trained SROs. We have SROs, who are tasked with dealing with school fist fights, disruptions in the classroom, and standard things that prior to this point in history was the main problems an SRO was dealing with. I think it is time to add some sort of counter-response training to their plate. 

Do we need the degree that military gets? No, these SROs MIGHT in an unfortunate circumstance come across a lone, untrained teenager, not a heavily equipped military force. The degree of training should be something to just familiarize themselves with their school, understand how to move around there school to get from Point A to Point B as fast as possible, understanding where Point B is (where is the shooter), and neutralizing the nature Fight-Flight-Freeze aspect in them. As we seen in Florida, SROs are definitely susceptible to flight and freeze. These kids shouldn't have to put their faith in a SRO that doesn't have the proper training, and we shouldn't expect our SROs to respond like a SWAT unit without offering them the right tools to teach them.

That's my opinion, and I believe it could easily be implemented. I even brought it up to our city board and our elected Sheriff and they are really wanting to implement a training program for the local SROs here. Again, just my two cents.

Good thing rest of the planet has figured it out.

 

 

Point being, there is a more fundamental issue, SRO etcs are band-aid on an open wound.


Edited by Shahenshah, 27 May 2018 - 07:03 AM.


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