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Ironic #MeToo hypocrisy


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#41
Rand0m her0

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Well either it's another example of a  well known, long record behaviour of such firms using or manufacturing flimsy excuses to fire "out" employees, or it's a moral panic you say you have no first hand experience of, and most of your information  about seems to come from media sources that have a vested political interest in convincing you there's a moral panic. 

 

Take your pick there. 


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#42
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For people moaning, thusfar the amount of attention this got in our press is about the same as the first story got. Perhaps you folks really need to think again with sensation drive news instead of actual news.

 

 

Clearly Lys demands sex from his wife. Cause that is what marriage is, a license to shackle someone to your whims.

Your opinions are fair, but this crossed a line my friend. If hurting me personally was your intention... congratulations.

 

It was a complete hyperbole from your "they should have expected it, and thus deserved it" line of reasoning. If you take personal hurt with this, expect that your lines did the same to many victims (both female as male) of such acts you just callously downplayed or victimblamed them for.

 

No sorry... my opinions in this thread are based on knowledge of the legal process here in the U.S.A., personal experience working in Hollywood, and working with actors and musicians. How many of these people do you know? Have you ever lived and worked in Hollywood? Didn't think so.

 

I don't really care what you think of me, but when you say this kind of thing about my wife, who I have known since 1975, and is the hardest working, most thoughtful person I have ever known... well, this just makes you an ass.

 

I live by a pretty simple code, and another example of that happened this morning when we were spending a couple thousand dollars to see Aerosmith when they come to the MGM Grand next year. Steven Tyler and his attorney sent a cease a desist letter demanding the President to stop using his music at his rallies. Well, we canceled those plans. Being an ass has consequences.


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#43
onbekende

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Lets try another analogy then: altar/choir boys shouldn't only expect to be fiddled with, they are actually all gay cause there are only male priests and them chosing said line of work/volunteering clearly shows they know whats comming. See, I can generalize to!

 

Being an ass to your POTUS is a badge of honour, something that happens to any POTUS you guys had in the last century. I see no loss :D Also this is the third letter they send, clearly who's the ass here?


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#44
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Well either it's another example of a  well known, long record behaviour of such firms using or manufacturing flimsy excuses to fire "out" employees, or it's a moral panic you say you have no first hand experience of, and most of your information  about seems to come from media sources that have a vested political interest in convincing you there's a moral panic. 

 

Take your pick there. 

 

So now, you're saying there can be no moral panic, because I have no first hand experience, and the mediums reporting on it are politically biased.

 

Well, if you want to have it like that, then you have to discard anything Buzzfeed and the HuffPo are reporting on this matter, because they too have a vested political interest in convincing you that it is NOT a moral panic.

 

Either way, I did not bring up this case to support the argument for the existence of a moral panic, but because Dark Fox asked whether I know of any case when someone was fired based on an accusation alone. I provided one.

 

But even if this particular story isn't true, the general pattern is that A accuses B of sexual harassment, and B is immediately suspended/fired/placed on paid leave pending an investigation. What I'm not seeing, are employers saying: "Well, there may be truth to this, but we will believe in the principle of innocent until proven guilty. We will conduct an investigation, and if the accusation proves true, we will immediately fire B." If you know of any such case when an employer acted this way, please share.


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#45
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Well either it's another example of a  well known, long record behaviour of such firms using or manufacturing flimsy excuses to fire "out" employees, or it's a moral panic you say you have no first hand experience of, and most of your information  about seems to come from media sources that have a vested political interest in convincing you there's a moral panic. 

 

Take your pick there. 

 

So now, you're saying there can be no moral panic, because I have no first hand experience, and the mediums reporting on it are politically biased.

 

Well, if you want to have it like that, then you have to discard anything Buzzfeed and the HuffPo are reporting on this matter, because they too have a vested political interest in convincing you that it is NOT a moral panic.

 

Either way, I did not bring up this case to support the argument for the existence of a moral panic, but because Dark Fox asked whether I know of any case when someone was fired based on an accusation alone. I provided one.

 

But even if this particular story isn't true, the general pattern is that A accuses B of sexual harassment, and B is immediately suspended/fired/placed on paid leave pending an investigation. What I'm not seeing, are employers saying: "Well, there may be truth to this, but we will believe in the principle of innocent until proven guilty. We will conduct an investigation, and if the accusation proves true, we will immediately fire B." If you know of any such case when an employer acted this way, please share.

 

 

It's almost like the later case isn't going to make national media. It's almost like many of the prominent cases are ones where the person's behaviour has been a known issue for decades. It's almost like companies tend to announce that people are being removed *after* concluding the investigation, not before. It's almost like an inveistgation where HR goes "uh yea, we've got like 3 decades worth of reports on this guy, but the CEO told us under no uncertain terms to drop the matter" doesn't take very long. 

 

A moral panic looks like crank physicists on the TV floating theories about repressed memories of ritual satanic abuse. A witch hunt looks like senator mccarthy percedingin over a commission in part with the FBI to ferret out suspected communists. It looks like the FBI demanding that it's employees sit in it's homosexual detection device in order to determine if they will continue to be employed there.

 

This? This is a couple dozen semi prominent assholes, quite a few of whom have outright admitted to it being removed after their company decides that the accusation is sufficiently credible  to be worth removing them. If you think a company is going to pay out a massive golden parachute in order to remove someone who's making them money on a "moral panic" you're kinda off your tit. And as said, I guarantee either your buddy is making up shit, whoever told them that story was making up shit, or your buddy is in no way party to all the details. I will bet money that person either had a longer history or was one of a long line of people in the legal industry fired for bullshit reasons because their employers didn't want to keep them around any more. You can find people fired in the 80s for jumped up sexual harassment claims in those industries simply because it one of the reasons where EI doesn't pay out, and that was an era when molesting the secretaries was considered just another job perk. 

 

 

Also no, no we do not need to treat every source as equal. Sexual harassment in these industries are so prevlevant there are literally hundreds of studies that attempt to quantify exactly how bad it is. Something like one person in five will experience it at some point. No one is inventing sexual harassment. So you know, pretending that buzzfeed is the only source is just a wee bit disingenuous. 

 

Of course that's utterly irrelevant. You seem to think there's some big moral panic. It's not on me or anyone else to disprove your claim, it's on you to prove it. Your moral panic does not get to exist by default until disproved, and you shouldn't expect people to prove the negative. The null hypothesis is true until you demonstrate otherwise. 


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#46
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This is a recent case that went too far because of a one sided accusation from a bad relationship. The very popular host of The Walking Dead after-show talk show, Talking Dead... Chris Hardwick, was absolutely crushed, slandered, humiliated, fired, and virtually kicked out of anything and everything he created... because an ex-girlfriend wrote a letter accusing him of sexual and emotional abuse. After months of hell, being replaced, and investigated, it was determined to be untrue, and he was reinstated.

 

This whole way of doing things is just all wrong.


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#47
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If by put through hell you mean Hardwick decided the letter which never mentioned him was about him, turned the entire thing into a public shitfit and embarrassment to AMC, which means they put the  premier of the second season of his show on hold for three weeks while they sorted out said shitfit.

 

Also yea, it took a couple weeks, not "months of hell", and said "weeks" was almost entirely a product of him deciding to A release his own statement  that was bascily a hit piece on Dykstra turning the thing ot a mess and then B  release a bunch of shit to TMZ  for them to publish. When you go out of your way to turn the thing into a public shitfit....yea your gonna end up mildly inconvenienced. If your a network personality and turn anything into public shitfit with international notoriety and the networks gonna put your shit on hold for a while.  That ain't new, the network wants to make sure none of that will get on them. 

 

 

Also it's hardly like there was a police investigation and he was cleared of charged or something. Even assuming it was about Hardwick (and Dykstra still hasn't said so, the closest is that she in no way wants his career disrupted as a result of said letter), the letter at worst presents a picture of a shitty jealous and demanding boyfriend, and it's hardly like AMC has published  a detailed report on if Hardwick was shit boyfriend or not.

 

And since even Hardwick has gone on record about how his relationship is Dysktra was a mutually dysfunctional mess, he probably was a bit of a shitty boyfriend. 


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#48
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If by put through hell you mean Hardwick decided the letter which never mentioned him was about him

She talked about when, and supplied dates. Their relationship was well known, and everyone knew who she was talking about. There was no way for him to stay silent, and it would just go away. I don't watch his show very often, and I don't watch "Fear" at all. I do know he's very popular within that world, and it effected many people. If anyone has a bad relationship... just get out of it, and move on. He's actually married to Patti Hearst's daughter now... yeah, that Patti Hearst. There was absolutely no reason to do this to him. No one cares except that stupid mob that jump on every opportunity to destroy someone's life. It's a bunch of online babies that never grew up.


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#49
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If by put through hell you mean Hardwick decided the letter which never mentioned him was about him

She talked about when, and supplied dates. Their relationship was well known, and everyone knew who she was talking about. There was no way for him to stay silent, and it would just go away. I don't watch his show very often, and I don't watch "Fear" at all. I do know he's very popular within that world, and it effected many people. If anyone has a bad relationship... just get out of it, and move on. He's actually married to Patti Hearst's daughter now... yeah, that Patti Hearst. There was absolutely no reason to do this to him. No one cares except that stupid mob that jump on every opportunity to destroy someone's life. It's a bunch of online babies that never grew up.

 

 

Given that after about two weeks, it went away...yea it probably would have gone away. Chloe Dykstra is bascily a semi amatuer model, and wasn't exactly hitting up all the media looking to sell the story. She posted a rant, unlisted [ie, you had to go out of your way to find it] about an ex being a shitty boyfriend. Hardwick is the who turned around and published a retaliatory hit piece via a god damn press release, and then proceeded to sell a bunch of their text messages to TMZ.

 

That's the point it became a Big Thing. And that's about the time AMC wanted to make sure they weren't going to get any of this shit one them. It's also about the time Hardwick shut up, probably because AMC told him to stop  selling shit to TMZ and go sit in the corner while mommy and daddy talk. And hey, know what happened when AMC started "investigating him?"  Dykstra's response was to tell them to go away and bother someone else. . 

 

 

It wasn't some epic hit piece, Dykstra had no interest in making it into some dog and pony show, and it didn't turn into one until Hardwick decided to make it one. And when you're in a prominent media job highly tied into the face of a major television network and quite a few of its major products, any personal drama that involves *you* selling shit to TMZ will result in said network making sure their own ass is covered. I guarantee AMC would have vastly prefered to handle it quietly, they will have lost money of their own by pushing back the new season.  Instead, and I can't state this enough, he wrote a drama laden press release and *sold shit to TMZ*. 

 

You've said "well what do you expect of hollywood/the media " quite a few times like it's an explanation for sexual harassment and abuse, but apparently it's waaaay to unreasonable to expect a major TV network to cover it's own ass at the expense of others?  


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#50
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If by put through hell you mean Hardwick decided the letter which never mentioned him was about him

She talked about when, and supplied dates. Their relationship was well known, and everyone knew who she was talking about. There was no way for him to stay silent, and it would just go away. I don't watch his show very often, and I don't watch "Fear" at all. I do know he's very popular within that world, and it effected many people. If anyone has a bad relationship... just get out of it, and move on. He's actually married to Patti Hearst's daughter now... yeah, that Patti Hearst. There was absolutely no reason to do this to him. No one cares except that stupid mob that jump on every opportunity to destroy someone's life. It's a bunch of online babies that never grew up.

 

 

All this that you took entirely too much time to type...

 

I don't care... and all the more reason to ignore these people.


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#51
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Then why are you posting here when you could be watching fox news talking about it, nodding along and telling your wife that if she'd stuck with that industry she'd have deserved it too. 


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#52
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Then why are you posting here when you could be watching fox news talking about it, nodding along and telling your wife that if she'd stuck with that industry she'd have deserved it too. 

I am watching Fox News right now... John McCain just died, and it's ruining my shows. Now Ducey can appoint a non-Rino to his seat that will actually go to work and vote for Bret Kavanaugh. Maybe Ducey will just plant Kelli Ward in the Senate, and just let Martha McSally crush Kyrsten Sinema… or the other way around, doesn't matter to me. I have a lot of awesome pictures of my wife from that time, but we have never regretted turning away from Hollywood. I worked there until 1997... we just hated what it turned into, and left.


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#53
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It's almost like the later case isn't going to make national media. It's almost like many of the prominent cases are ones where the person's behaviour has been a known issue for decades. It's almost like companies tend to announce that people are being removed *after* concluding the investigation, not before. It's almost like an inveistgation where HR goes "uh yea, we've got like 3 decades worth of reports on this guy, but the CEO told us under no uncertain terms to drop the matter" doesn't take very long.

Gee, you sure know how each of these companies are dealing with these cases! Because to me it's almost like these companies are doing everything they can do distance themselves from their accused employees. It's almost like the truthfulness of the accusation is secondary to keeping their customer-base. Understandable, corporations work rationally, it's the mob that is stupid.
 

A moral panic looks like crank physicists on the TV floating theories about repressed memories of ritual satanic abuse. A witch hunt looks like senator mccarthy percedingin over a commission in part with the FBI to ferret out suspected communists. It looks like the FBI demanding that it's employees sit in it's homosexual detection device in order to determine if they will continue to be employed there.

Those aren't moral panic, they're just gigantic hyperboles. A moral panic looks like this:

- https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11343380/Sexually-assault-1-in-3-UK-female-students-victim-on-campus.html - 33%
- https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/us/a-third-of-college-women-experience-unwanted-sexual-contact-study-finds.html - 25%

Yeah right. Those are numbers that simply can't be true. This would mean that going to college is more dangerous to women than prison (4% officially, though some estimates put assault at 20% -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_rape_in_the_United_States) You either have a serious problem with your methodology (possibly how you frame what sexual abuse means), or you have a moral panic, where the public and even a part of the scientific community goes off the rails. I think it's the latter.

Also no, no we do not need to treat every source as equal. Sexual harassment in these industries are so prevlevant there are literally hundreds of studies that attempt to quantify exactly how bad it is. Something like one person in five will experience it at some point. No one is inventing sexual harassment. So you know, pretending that buzzfeed is the only source is just a wee bit disingenuous.

I'm not pretending it's a non issue, but MAYBE we could go about this in a cool headed way, instead of further fanning the flames of mass hysteria, no? The activist-types really should know this better, after all, you'd think they want to win people over for their cause. Well evidently, that isn't the case, exhibit A: this thread where multiple former supporter have stated they no longer think this movement is being honest/heading in the right direction. I gather it's what's happening generally, not just on our humble forums.

Of course that's utterly irrelevant. You seem to think there's some big moral panic. It's not on me or anyone else to disprove your claim, it's on you to prove it. Your moral panic does not get to exist by default until disproved, and you shouldn't expect people to prove the negative. The null hypothesis is true until you demonstrate otherwise.

I have provided plenty of support for why I think there is a moral panic, while all you did to counter them is to blame corporations, dismiss sources as biased (even though I used Buzzfeed, and now the NYT to make my point), make hyperboles, and accuse my friend of lying, without ever occuring to you that MAYBE parts of this #metoo thing have gone too far. Again, you have shown your tendency to disregard obvious facts that run contrary to your political ideology. It's to be expected from the far-left, unfortunately.


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#54
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 No one cares except that stupid mob that jump on every opportunity to destroy someone's life. It's a bunch of online babies that never grew up.

 

 

Something something sensation. Something something revenue. Something something adds. Something something PR. :(

 

I am not really saddened by the media storm on usual mondane relationship breakups or wrongfull accusation when "celebrity" is mentioned. I am saddened that such, and worse, acts are done in "normal" people's lives and most probably don't even get the attention they deserve.

 

Keep the tabloids to the tabloids I say, let the real people concern themselfes with real issues. Keep the schadenfreude out of the news!


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#55
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I live by a pretty simple code, and another example of that happened this morning when we were spending a couple thousand dollars to see Aerosmith when they come to the MGM Grand next year. Steven Tyler and his attorney sent a cease a desist letter demanding the President to stop using his music at his rallies. Well, we canceled those plans. Being an ass has consequences.

My Aerosmith protest didn't last very long. My very Republican daughter from Denver just called me, and told me "To make sure we have the 4th of July clear next year... we're going to Aerosmith" I told her "Steven Tyler sent a letter to Trump demanding him to stop using his music"... she said, "Get over it Dad, It's just music... I already bought the tickets" So, I guess my protest has ended.


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#56
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Yielding to the forces that truely matter! ;)


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