18 replies to this topic

[SealTeamPi]

For those who follow US Politics, the Commanding Officer of the USS Theodore Roosevelt has just been relieved of command due to releasing a public letter describing how the Navy is not supporting his ship with its Caronavirus outbreak. I just want to know how Captain Crozier has time to run the vault and have the biggest dick in the United States Navy at the same time.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/04/03/coronavirus-capt-brett-crozier-gets-send-off-uss-roosevelt/2939098001/

[Lysistrata]

I saw this too, but I like our Captain much more and I didn't want to razz.

[brewersalliance]

For those who follow US Politics, the Commanding Officer of the USS Theodore Roosevelt has just been relieved of command due to releasing a public letter describing how the Navy is not supporting his ship with its Caronavirus outbreak. I just want to know how Captain Crozier has time to run the vault and have the biggest dick in the United States Navy at the same time.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/04/03/coronavirus-capt-brett-crozier-gets-send-off-uss-roosevelt/2939098001/

I mean he probably should not have let the letter get public.  idk if a dismissal is warranted or not, but i dont think its the fact that he tried to help his crew its he ignored the chain of command and made the letter public.  granted it was probably the only way to get the navy to act and protect his men

[SealTeamPi]

I mean, half of the crew of the TR has to be isolated/quarantined because of the infections onboard. And it seems that 7th fleet was going to just take the sick people off and send the boat back out. Which doesn't account for people who have the virus and aren't showing symptoms yet cause its incubating. This is a classic leadership problem in the US Navy, of raise your hand and tell us if we need to slow down, and then get dick punched when you ask for said slow down. This was his way of trying to hold his chain of command accountable. Was it the best option, I don't know. But the question that needs to be asked is letting a dozen or so sailors die without treatment worth the 'mission' that the TR is executing right now.

 

Also, FWIW, here is the Joint House Armed Service Commitee's response. I think this is a pretty succinct summation of my personal opinion on the matter.

https://armedservices.house.gov/2020/4/hasc-leadership-joint-statement-on-the-dismissal-of-u-s-s-theodore-roosevelt-captain

[Lysistrata]

The reason he lost his command is right here. We're talking about it.

[brewersalliance]

did he go about this the right/offical way?  no.  but the navy didnt go about this the right way either.  so i think everyone is to blame here.  

[onbekende]

Heard he kicked the can multiple times to his direct superiors. When he kept drawing a blank he posted a letter directly to the Pentagon (aka going over the direct line of command). That letter got released, who specifically did so is anyone's guess last I heard.

 

it is obvious, that entire boat needs to be marooned for 2 weeks minimum and everyone on it monitored and tested. If his dismissal of command is what it takes for that to happen, I'd venture a guess any captain would do so willingly.

[Lysistrata]

He sent a letter to the Pentagon, and CC'd it to 20 different people. Who? I don't know the identities.

 

In the military... that will get you fired.

 

This is a virus. There is no cure. There is no vaccine. An Aircraft Carrier is like a floating city. They have everything they need on that ship, and can stay out there for extremely long deployments. The best course of action for them is to stay away until it's gone.

 

Sorry to say this, but they signed up for it and they know what is expected of them.

[SealTeamPi]

He sent a letter to the Pentagon, and CC'd it to 20 different people. Who? I don't know the identities.

 

In the military... that will get you fired.

 

This is a virus. There is no cure. There is no vaccine. An Aircraft Carrier is like a floating city. They have everything they need on that ship, and can stay out there for extremely long deployments. The best course of action for them is to stay away until it's gone.

 

Sorry to say this, but they signed up for it and they know what is expected of them.

 

I can tell you from experience that the aircraft carrier, and all navy ships are not equipped to deal with quarantine or this type of sickness. There isn't a way to really properly isolate people because of the way bearthing works on Naval vessels. Too many people sleep together, and the process of isolation required after you come into contact quickly multiplies to where we are. Cause on a carrier if an enlisted becomes sick, you need to quarantine the entire berthing area, which is about 50 or so people. Then you'd have to quarantine everyone those 50 people interact with. Which is probably close to 400-500 people. And so on and so forth.

 

As for they signed up for this, members of the US navy sign up to go to war and take these types of risk in battle. Saying they signed up to be killed by a virus because the ship 

'has to be deployed' is a hell of a strawman argument. The point being made by Capt. Crozier here is that this isn't a risk worth having a dozen members of ship's company die over. What battle are they fighting, against which nation? Which war memorial will be erected to memorialize these sailors who laid their life down so TR can roam the Southwestern Pacific? There are definitely strategic asset issues at play with the type of vessel you are dealing with. But if TR is in Guam, Sasebo, or Hawaii what difference does it really make. This is the point Capt Crozier had to make.

[Lysistrata]

This is the point Capt Crozier had to make.

And his point worked out well for him. It's an Aircraft Carrier. Them, with a couple thousand miles of ocean away from other human beings, is a pretty damn good quarantine. He should have followed orders.

[ccabal86]

I'm no military expert, but maybe he was also considering the safety of the vessel? I don't know how many people it takes to safely pilot an Aircraft Carrier, but I would think many. The virus could endanger the availability of sufficient staff as well.

[Captain Crozier]

Operational sustainability is a crucial factor as well.  He may have only had a dozen sick and dying at that point, but as we are seeing, many young w/o underlying conditions are being taken.  Aircraft carriers do not have a plethora of ventilators for those in the worst positions, just bury them at sea but worse, as mentioned above, there is no real quarantine.  The bunking is of mixed ratings, meaning your radar personnel sleep with your cooks sleeps with your mechanics sleeps with your yeomen sleeps with your boats man mates and on and on.  The spread of the virus through the whole swath of the operational core of the mission of the vessel is at risk if as little as 15% is taken ill.  They run 24/7 in shifts, take out shifts and start running them thin, that can go on for a while - does in war - add a virus where everyone is stressed and tired ADD more sick and dying till you are dead in the water.  It's a very bad operational risk and as Captain NOT prosecuting a war ordered command (even though always a war command by it's nature), bad for the crew.  

 

He fell on his sword for his crew.  It wasn't a good option.  The only one he felt he open to him after the other channels did not get the results he was tasked with accomplishing.  Good on him.  I wish him well 

[SealTeamPi]

I just feel blessed that we have our own Captain Crozier her to guide us through CN. Ferro Credimus!

[onbekende]

He sent a letter to the Pentagon, and CC'd it to 20 different people. Who? I don't know the identities.

 

In the military... that will get you fired.

 

This is a virus. There is no cure. There is no vaccine. An Aircraft Carrier is like a floating city. They have everything they need on that ship, and can stay out there for extremely long deployments. The best course of action for them is to stay away until it's gone.

 

Sorry to say this, but they signed up for it and they know what is expected of them.

 

Yeah he send a letter to the Pentagon cause his direct superiors were diddling around with his shipmate's lifes! Heck the acting sec nav already came out and stated the letter itself or it being send should have no grounds for dismissing him. Basically he gets the drop for the leak cause his name is on the paper.

 

He also isn't fired, heck they are even trying to keep him.

 

Aircraft carriers have rotations, they have people flying in and out constantly, the virus was already present. Current positives is over 100 on a complement of roughly 5700. And as stated by others you got zero possiblity of quaranteening part of the crew itself.

 

And as for US soldiers dying cause higher command couldn't safeguard them from an ungoing virus outbreak (Crozier was demanding action post-infection), well, I'd guess you are one of the few who thinks that a-ok.

 

 

This is the point Capt Crozier had to make.

And his point worked out well for him. It's an Aircraft Carrier. Them, with a couple thousand miles of ocean away from other human beings, is a pretty damn good quarantine. He should have followed orders.

 

And as stated before, it was already on the boat. Was the entire reason they diverted to Guam! So they were already "off the playground" to begin with, so screw operational readyness and "making the ship seem crippled".

[Lysistrata]

There's a lot to this story that we will never know. Crozier was relieved of his command. That means he disobeyed his orders, and it's obvious that he received orders that he had no desire to follow. I would guess the orders were something like "Hold your position and contain your situation Captain". That would be pretty direct. He should have followed his orders.

[onbekende]

To me it sounds like he got zero orders except a "stand by".

 

And here I thought you as Libertarian would be on his side in fighting possibly unjust, borderline dangerous (non-)orders coming from unresponsive superiors.

[Lysistrata]

To me it sounds like he got zero orders except a "stand by".

 

And here I thought you as Libertarian would be on his side in fighting possibly unjust, borderline dangerous (non-)orders coming from unresponsive superiors.

Stand by is an order too. I don't know what his orders were, but it's obvious he didn't follow them. The military chain of command doesn't recognize personal feelings or political views. It's purely authoritarian, and it needs to be.

 

https://www.foxnews.com/us/capt-crozier-of-uss-roosevelt-facing-disciplinary-action-despite-support-of-crew-and-petition-for-reinstatement

 

I expect not to ever hear about this guy ever again, but there is a chance that it's part of a larger scheme. We could soon see a book written about speaking truth to power, appearances on CNN and MSNBC, a sex change, a Hallmark movie, and a run for Congress.

 

Nothing surprises me anymore.

[HackSlash]

I've been reading this story.  The reason Captain Crozier was relieved of command, was not because he questioned his orders.  It was because he went to the media.  Something we are not really not allowed to do.

 

Lys, you are right to a point when you say the military is authoritarian. I'm a Section 2IC.  The orders I give have to be obeyed, as long as they are lawful.  That's the catch. it doesn't matter what nationality we are, all western soldiers, as part of the oath we take when we join, is unquestioning obedience to all lawful commands.  If an order is unlawful, we are required, by oath, to disobey it.

 

Captain Crozier was looking out for his troops when he did what he did.  That's what a good officer is supposed to do, take care of his/her troops.  I've got a lot of respect of that.

[ccabal86]

Wait, my understanding is that he DIDN’T go to the media, he sent letters to Pentagon officials and someone leaked it. I would understand his relieve if he did that though, that’s a big no-no in the armed forces.

EDIT: I missed this, but turns out that he was the leak.