Preston

A lot of the time it was just Imran and I talking; at several points we kinda poked Lyner and/or Robert to be more active, or to bring them up to speed on what was going on. On D4 at one point we were contemplating a vote blitz, and we were repeating over and over "this means we need everyone ONLINE and ACTIVE". lol. Sometimes I thought they were reading our discord more than the actual thread. Daytalk can definitely help, but it only does so much.

As Roleblocker, Robert was prepping to claim Jailer if he had to - the idea being that he was both protecting and blocking someone at the same time. His claimed anger was much for the same reason that Brewers had assumed you'd be blocking LWW, that Robert-as-Jailer was protecting Velocity's stone because he thought you'd be on someone else. Jailer isnt a great claim, especially with how blocking Velocity lined up with LWW's death, but it was all Robert really had to work with if he was tracked by DF on N3.

Good game all - you have no idea how stressful this was from our end! I'll throw out some extra data for you since TW hasnt revealed the game setup yet. 1. Mafia had daytalk. LWW speculated about this on D1 even 2. Mafia did NOT have safeclaims! In a lore-heavy themed game this was a MASSIVE source of stress for us. 3. Mafia setup was as follows: * Imran was Ascetic 1-shot Ninja - i.e. all night actions except kills would return "No Effect" and he had a 1-shot ninja kill * Lyner was 1-shot bulletproof, 1-shot strongman * Preston was 1-shot bulletproof Flavor Cop * Robert was Roleblocker 4. NONE of us were Thanos. We were not given any information about the stones or what they would do. Our role PM included the line "You will win when the Black Order is the only faction remaining or when nothing can prevent the same." As a result we waffled back and forth between whether the stones would be helpful or harmful for us, whether there was another faction, and whether Thanos was actually in the game or not as a SK. 5. Mafia night actions as follows: N1: Lyner kill iSoc (normal kill), Preston investigates KevinH, Robert blocks Velocity, Imran no action N2: Lyner kills TM (normal kill), Preston investigates MK, Robert blocks LWW, Imran no action N3: Lyner kills LWW (strongman kill), Preston investigates iSoc2, Robert blocks Velocity, Imran no action N4: Imran kills Zacch (ninja kill), Robert blocks MK, Preston investigates Brewers, Lyner no action 6. Our investigation results were as follows: * Found a baton and a blonde hair (KevinH, Black Widow) * Found a switchblade (MK, we believe Gamora) * Detected a slight Gamma signature (iSoc2, Bruce Banner) * Detected psionic energy (Brewers, Wanda) 7. After N3 Lyner lost his 1-shot bulletproof as a "Balancing decision" by TW, which REALLY freaked us out because we speculated there was a vigilante and/or a SK in the game - thus we needed to figure out a way to get through N4 without one of us dying. 8. As of D4/N4 we were pretty solidly convinced that Brewers had to be Thanos as a SK who stood to win if he collected all the stones. This came out in our D4 posting, and our N4 planning involved gaming out how to neutralize both Brewers as Thanos and MK as a potential vigilante. We went kinda nuts debating how best to proceed, trying for a night where we both got a kill and none of us died, or that failing if one of us died we were in the best possible position to go into D5 to attack Brewers as Thanos. 9. TW reported our N4 actions on 9/10, but since the game hadn't started we spent a LONG time thinking that we were going to only later find out who of us had died and that D5 would be about to happen. 10. If D5 had happened it would have been a struggle to make Brewers-as-Thanos stick. We relied on the idea that MK would confirm that my flavor results were real and that if one of us had died to make D5 happen at ALL it would have confirmed a SK was in the game because there would have been a mafia death. Our nightmare scenario was that BOTH Brewers was Thanos-as-SK and MK was vigilante (2 killing roles), and that if Robert had died we would not have a roleblock to stop MK on N5. Lyner losing his 1-shot bulletproof made us speculate that TW was giving the town more of a chance to night kill us and balance the game, which supported this possibility. We started the game working from a strong fear of our claims being instant scum tells because our names would be either duplicates (instant fail) or weak (because we'd have to pick side characters to avoid main names), but by the end of the game we knew/suspected who most everyone was before we had to claim for ourselves. The fact of people treating stone names as instantly proven town was a serious wildcard that we griped about pretty hard - the complete reversal after Velocity's Vision claim showed how powerful that was. Because we thought Thanos was in the game, that actually kept us away from a lot of otherwise obvious targets. We speculated Thanos would have bulletproof, thus we wanted to investigate any Thanos candidates first and then use strongman on him if found. This caused us a lot of problems overall in terms of who we let ourselves target, and was part of the reason we targeted less-obvious people. We generally tried to keep Imran inactive at night so that he could claim Commuter if challenged - a weak claim, but the only way to justify the involuntary 'no result' he would give. We figured he'd claim Falcon or something that thematically fit. I can confirm that killing Tony on N2 was NOT a personal thing at all. We had ended up with ALL of us off of the Kevin wagon, which left us in an awkward position. MK would have been perfect (he voted for Brewers) but we suspected MK as a possible Thanos target so we investigated first. We didnt kill iSoc2 due to him having JUST been replaced and possibly being able to use his very awkward day-end vote as potential lynch material later. We ultimately picked Tony because it was Kevin's chosen wagon, which made it look like scum were trying to throw doubt on those who had jumped in to save Kevin. We also had the logic that since TM was Kevin's pick, if Lyner was observed he could claim vigilante carrying out Kevin's guess. The chained claims at the end of D3 really narrowed the playing field, but also made our N3 actions kinda obvious - we HAD to kill the actual cop, and we didnt want to risk him surviving so we used Lyner's strongman to prevent Zacch's bodyguard from working - another doctor being in play wasnt even on our radar. We figured LWW would be watched so we HAD to roleblock Velocity. Investigating iSoc2 was because we thought he might be The Collector and have a stone, which would have massively affected our D4 plans if he was able to claim a stone name and be instantly considered proven town. We seriously were not expecting LWW to have the reality stone! With the field narrowed so much on D4 that's when we REALLY started thinking that with so few people left Brewers had to be Thanos by process of elimination, and when he claimed universal backup that totally felt like a Thanos fakeclaim - the sequence of no action on N1, followed by getting a doctor power when the time stone was lost. As the 'flavor guy' I was the only one that could safely start speculating about Thanos at that point and seeding the attack on Brewers for the next day, wherein I would claim my investigation results had confirmed it if D5 occurred at all. But even so it was a VERY close call and somewhat tipped my hand. For myself, what you saw of my posting style is pretty much how I am when I'm town as well. I tend to parse and give reactions/opinions to what has happened since my last post, then get into my own theories and speculation about suspects. This means my posts are pretty uniformly long but also show i'm giving opinions on everything that's happening instead of hiding my thoughts for the most part - Imran referenced this when he made fun of my walls of text, which is a thing I did way back when I played mafia here before. This game the town gave me a LOT of viable material to scum hunt with - the odd posts by Velocity and iSoc2 at the end of D2, Zacch being all over the place, and then Brewers' role oddity that we had to coax out of DF all made for viable 'something wrong here' fodder. If anything I felt I'd been a bit aggressive going after Velocity on D3 and then iSoc2 on D4 - that's gotten me into trouble sometimes as town too. I was also trying to seed from early on that I was very much paying attention to flavor in this game, to support my eventual claim if I had to make it. But in all seriousness TW has commented in the past that if we'd guessed more about the flavor setup for his games it could have led us to figuring things out, so I had that basis to work from. The flavor results we got were a little confounding because some of them had mixed interpretations - 'blonde' hair for black widow when she was redhead in Infinity War, switchblade could be Gamora OR Thanos, the slight gamma signature and psionic energy both could also have been references to Thanos since both of those apply to the stones/him. It felt like TW was denying us solid confirmation of if someone was/wasn't Thanos by the end. Overall there's no question we got REALLY lucky this game, both in our kill results and with town giving us plenty of red herrings to hide among. So yeah, good game to everyone! Brewers, you really had us worried all at several major points with how closely you were working out who was who - if we hadn't thought you might be a bulletproof Thanos you might have been our N4 kill target

Lyner piles on with the fourth vote - possible scum sacrifice given the way things are going, trying to claim town credit for being part of the wagon? Previously he was so dismissive of the idea. Despite the inevitable feeling that Zacch commented on, no hammer came - no scum moving to lock in the day's lynch. With this many votes and Zacch/myself as town, that boosts my confidence that iSoc2 is scum. Imran continues to push for a Brewers wagon today - no change there, just with the added focus of Brewers potentially being Thanos. And then iSoc2 comes back with less than a day left, claiming VT in a role madness game. First off his timing is certainly convenient - it tracks with the idea that he could have been watching and hoping that the wagon would tip another direction instead before he broke his silence, especially if he was observed with an online profile earlier and has not posted until now. Vanilla Townie - as in a town role with no power at all - is another unverifiable role claim, but unlike Brewers there's no prospect of our watcher or tracker being able to solidly confirm it tonight. DF could track iSoc2 and at most get that nothing happened, but even then it could be false because iSoc2-as-scum could choose to take no action for the night and just let another scum perform the kill. Even a negative result would not prove iSoc2 is legit. Looking at the role from a flavor/theme standpoint - Bruce Banner/Hulk I would have considered for some kind of a Strongman power or similar. In the movie he also makes use of Hulkbuster armor, so that is another way to have possibly fit a role to the name - but I am more skeptical of a VT at this point than I am of Brewers' Universal Backup claim. There is no stone associated with this name so it could be a safe claim per earlier discussion, which would fit if TW wanted a scum that got caught by any of our tracker/watcher variants to be able to instead claim Vigilante or something: i.e. "I'm the Hulk, that was my kill power" iSoc2 speaks more here about his LWW pressure. I will agree that iSoc2 likely did not know LWW was cop at the end of D2 or on D3 when he doubled down on it being a "Gut feeling", but his choice to attack LWW at the end of D2 was also a decision to stay off the Kevin wagon right after replacing Bryan, and then nothing else for the rest of the day. This still to me feels like scum not wanting to be associated anything else as that day ended by spreading out votes to a wagon with no argument or logic behind it. He also explicitly tries to put some distance between himself and Lyner, right after Lyner voted for him. I'm also not sure from his text that he understood what's been put forward as a theory, so I'll be clear about this in case anyone else missed it. I've previously called out how Lyner (and Brewers and even Imran today) have been dismissive of iSoc2... acting like there was nothing there to pay attention to when reworking suspect lists today, basically leaving him out of consideration. The idea here is that if someone downplayed iSoc2 as even an option, that's a way of protecting him. Therefore if iSoc2 subsequently flips scum, anyone that tacitly ignored him will look more scummy as a result. If Lyner was trying to protect iSoc2 by dismissing his absence as "inactive lol" but then swapped stances and now jumped on the wagon for credit, and now iSoc2 is trying to say "I'm not with Lyner", that has the appareance of two scum trying to make as much distance as possible before iSoc2 flips. Thus the concept remains that if iSoc2 flips scum, Lyner/Brewers and maybe Imran per today will have been trying to keep that from happening. This is basically just too convenient of a return and untestable claim for me to change my position. I think this remains the most likely scum of those who remain, and has the potential to chain to other scum based on actions that were taken to not pursue him. And at the risk of being a bit cruel/heartless here - if somehow iSoc2 really IS town and his claim is legit, then losing him is not losing a power role that could turn the tide tomorrow, similar to Kevin on D2 accepting his lynch by saying that he was "only a Voyeur" - i.e. not the most useful role, less of an impact to lose him. To briefly address Brewers' question about gameplanning tonight's actions - I don't know what we can say in thread that won't just telegraph to scum what is being done tonight so they can plan around it. The main things we have going is that with a (TBD) Doctor and Bodyguard there's two potential means to block or redirect a kill, and we have both a Tracker and Watcher alive. Based on Velocity being blocked last night in tandem with LWW's kill I'd agree with the assessment that scum has a roleblocker, but they cannot block both protection methods AND both detection methods. Fingers crossed we have good odds of catching someone red-handed tonight. There is also the potential of a second kill tonight if the theoretical SK Thanos - be it Brewers or not - makes an appearance. Of course, none of this is exactly NEWS - but going into tonight it will be good to keep all of this in mind.

Yay for having Saturday time to respond pity I cant be this available during the week. Given that I have become more concerned about Brewers since his claim and have openly speculated that he is Thanos, I am not surprised to see him turn a FOS on me in response. Speaking to what he says about my style: A lot of what I do is look for inconsistencies/oddities or unanswered questions and then see where the answers go. What is possible, what is proven or provable, etc. Being complete in that is part of why my posts tend to be pretty long, and repeating/restating what brought me to a given point is part of keeping my analysis consistent. Brewers was pretty solidly in my likely Town list until today when we had to reexamine our suspect list and the question of what was going on with DF came up. The oddity of your N1 lack-of-action and then the coincidence of your claimed getting a doctor power at the same time Thanos got the Doctor's Time stone is something I can't ignore, and I don't think anyone else should either. There are very valid reasons to be skeptical about an unproven/unprovable claim at this stage in the game, much as MK is/was skeptical of Velocity's unhelpful results and how Kevin's claim drew such attention. This new information has indeed adjusted my suspect list, as it should. That you are not currently the TOP of my suspect list is because I acknowledge how your claim /could/ be accurate, I am hoping for something more definitive to work with tomorrow that will settle your case. For the time being iSoc2 remains my #1 suspect for today, and I am sticking with that unless something else changes. As for the idea that I avoid committing to anything though... kindly refer to how hard I pushed for Velocity on D3 prior to his roleclaim, based on his end-of-D2 actions and inconsistency he showed between D2 and D3 stances. Also how hard I am pushing for iSoc2 now, based on his D2 avoidance tactic and D2/D3 attacks on LWW, combined with sporadic presence that's kept him under the radar. I restate these positions in most of my posts, so I should hope they are not easily missed. Saying that I have avoided committing to anything is very much not accurate. I am not going to imitate your/Imran's back-and-forth attacks in the vein of "you misrepresent me, you must be lying, lynch all liars!" because you can see me however you want. I think I have been pretty clear in my facts about why I am concerned about you based on today's claim, so it is not like I suddenly swapped to attack you out of nowhere. As for your hypothetical about me being scum and then trying to claim it wasn't me on the wagon - If you are a lynch that happens today or tomorrow and you flip town, then I don't think anyone would believe I was not involved with that, nor would I claim it. My reasons are an open book - a long series of books even, as people have joked multiple times this game. I don't see any posts from him today either. See my earlier post for a suspicion that he will somehow conveniently pop up again with hours to go, having watched the thread in the meantime. If he really IS town and is just genuinely being inactive, then you're right that he probably shouldn't have accepted being Bryan's replacement. It doesnt make a lot of sense though, because he WAS abruptly active around Velocity's near-lynch yesterday... so he was able to be here when he WANTED to be, but then he went silent again. This is a large part of the reason that I am convinced he's really scum. With ~1.5 days left in the deadline, any action TW takes will be last minute. Obviously it's up to him as mod, but I don't think we as players can say something like "Only replace him if he is town, otherwise let him die as scum" because that would be asking the mod to basically tell us iSoc2's alignment before the day ends. As much as I'd love a no-risk scenario like that, it would be utterly gamebreaking and feel like cheating.

Everyone's having a busy weekend it seems, but I'll respond to what there is to stay current. First bit: yes, I point out in my post that Brewers' claim is unverifiable. This does not mean it MUST be false, but as a scum fakeclaim it would be a good one because we have no solid information to dispute it at this time. Second bit: I mentioned Absorber in my post It's part of what got me thinking/brainstorming about Thanos and roles again. Absorber on mafiascum is defined by getting powers when someone targets them, so a stone-based absorber would be a custom variant for this game - however given the degree to which TW has been calling out in big bold letters whenever Thanos gets a stone, that would fit with the setup. Last bit: Part of the reason I am thinking a SK is that if Thanos is slated to acquire Cop as a stone role then it suggests Thanos may need to find the scum. Elaborating on that theory a little more here: We obviously haven't seen a second kill yet that would boost the probability of a SK being in play, but that also does not rule one out. When I was a SK in the past, TW gave me an even-night modifier. I skipped my N2 kill and didnt start until N4 to lay low. MK has also referenced this possibility as a smart SK move.If Thanos is due to acquire stone roles, then TW may have done the same here for the supposed SK's kill power - forcing them to trade off between kills to get stones and using stone powers to find more stone holders or scumhunt/prove himself townIf this is the case then on N2 Brewers-As-Thanos-SK could have used the doctor role on DF as claimed to try and block a kill and prove himself for the rest of the game, both to lay low so that nobody would start talking about the potential of a SK too early and to cement his own town status if challengedAnother interpretation is that Thanos doesn't get his own kill at all until/unless the rest of the scum die, in which case he takes over for the nightly kill. This would make Thanos more of a solo-winner/survivor sort of role - if he stays alive while all 6 stones are collected, possibly via proving himself town with his powers, then when the 6th stone is collected he just wins. Given that we're down to 2 stones left alive without a second visible kill on N1-N3, this appears quite feasible. If SK-Thanos has been saving their kill til N4 like I did when I had mine, then we could very possibly see two kills tonight. And as I said before, I am worried about he potential for a two-stone night that just ends everything. If Zacch is guarding Velocity then it might prevent a single night steamroll, but it's risky all the same. Zacch, at a glance no votes have been cast or changed since TW's last count, so I'll quote it here for ease of reference. I do not have a POST count handy to work from, but the key bits are that iSoc2 is still silent, Velocity hasn't returned but claimed would do so on Sunday, and Brewers claimed he was going to be busy as well. Ideally we will see more talking tomorrow. As things stand, iSoc2 would be the day's lynch if nothing changes. I am guessing that he is laying low and hoping that people decide he's just inactive. If he suddenly pops up near the end of the day with an abrupt vote blitz on whatever wagon saves him, that could be a sign he's been watching. DF and Velocity still need to take a position on the day's wagons. Both are considered town at this point, so their perspective won't be marred by people second guessing whether they are secretly scum or something. iSoc2 remains my #1 due to his end-of-D2 showing against LWW and avoiding all other wagons (scum vote spreading), doubling down on that on D3 without justification, and several of my other potential scum targets seeming to actively sidestep/disregard him as though inactivity means he shouldn't be considered, instead of viewing it as laying low. My worry about Brewers-as-Thanos may be moving him up to my #2 or #3 at this point, depending on how iSoc2 flips. As stated we MIGHT get more information on him tonight to make talking about him tomorrow a better prospect, but we cannot count on that. He also semi-skipped iSoc2 during his rebuilt suspect list analysis - something to the effect of "I dont remember who he replaced, someone else dive into this one." However if he IS Thanos, he would potentially be much more critical/dangerous to remove from play than any other scum. Lyner is probably #3 at this point, based on his activity level, seeming lack of attention prior to today, and seeming to sidestep iSoc2 with an "inactive lol" Robert and Imran are sortof contingent on Brewers and iSoc2 for me, given the way the three of them have been slinging attacks today. If Brewers really is Thanos, it could paint the pair of them in a different light. Zacch, Velocity, DF, and MK are considered town to me at this point unless something MAJOR changes.

Happy Friday all! Not a lot of posts, so thankfully this will also get to be a shorter post tonight. First I went back and read Imran's two posts I couldn't parse this morning. The first is rebuffing Brewers, and the second lays out a theory for why Brewers would sit still on N1 and why it would not be prohibitively risky for Brewers-as-scum to leave a known tracker alive. He also points out a townie would not otherwise keep harping on about DF being proven. What Imran describes is certainly /possible/ and fits the known facts, but is unproven. It's worth keeping in mind as a scenario for what could be going on with Brewers, but it is far from a smoking gun deduction. During the day Brewers snapped back HARD at Imran, to the point that TW had to throw a warning flag in thread. But after that he responded to my morning post and dropped a claim that is VERY interesting indeed! Okay, First Pass is to take this at face value: Brewers claims Wanda (not Wanda Maximoff?), Avenger Universal BackupBrewers gained iSoc1's Doctor role after N1, which explains why he did nothing on N1Brewers claims he used his doctor on N2 and N3 to protect DF and Velocity, respectivelyBrewers explains the D2+ harping on about DF's towniness was to try and bait a scum kill that he would block on N2Brewers explains his N3 choice of Velocity was for the stone, expecting Zacch would protect LWWAlso a less solid theory about "secret lovers", i.e. he dies if Vision dies due to Wanda-Vision lore connection?If this all true is as presented, then we have another doctor to boost our chances of blocking scum on any given night. The combination of Doctor and Bodyguard opens up a LOT of interesting potential combinations; Mafiascum even notes how broken it can be for a Doctor and a bodyguard to protect each other! Okay - now time to look at this more critically: There is no objective verification of Brewers' claim, as he is not able to point to a night of 0 killsIn this same vein I must note it is POSSIBLE he blocked a kill on N2 or N3, and the kill we saw came from another source - SK, vigilante, etc.This opens up all SORTS of possibilities!! If Brewers is town then Tony's death on N2 could actually not have been the scum's target at all but instead someone else's while scum tried to kill DF after Brewers baited them. Same on N3, though that looks to be far more likely scum action.Unverifiable "backup" roles with no proven results are scum fakeclaim fodderClaiming here on D4, you can list past night survivors and say that they just weren't targetedWith the voyeur dead N1, Role Cop lynched D3, Cop dead N3, and watcher and tracker having claimed their full actions, this claim can be made without fear of anyone else contradicting it based on information gathered thus far.DF could track Brewers again to see what/where he goes, but that wouldnt help us TODAYGiven the Role Madness of this game, Universal Backup strikes me as oddWe have seen no duplication so far by design, keeping all of our roles varied, but Universal Backup is geared to producing exactly that - feels like it doesnt QUITE fit?It feels odd that TW would give someone a role that /by design/ could do nothing on N1 unless a D1 lynch happened. It's basically robbing someone of their N1 action instead of just GIVING them a different role they can use from the startName claiming "Wanda" (Not Wanda Maximoff, just Wanda - maybe a nitpick?) avoids the main 6 Avengers and suspected stone holdersSee the entire earlier discussion about Scum having safe claims, the theory that stone holders seem to be consistently town at least so far, etc. I'm not 100% sure that 'universal backup' fits Wanda by theme? Maybe you can handwave and say "magic can be anything", and TW could have had to stretch to make SOME things fit, but I don't knowPerhaps most importantly: The sequence of this claim *exactly* matches my second Thanos scenario from this morning's post! i.e. Thanos gaining the Time Stone doctor's power after N1. This is both REALLY interesting/exciting and really frustrating for me, because of the position this puts us in.After this morning's brainstorm I was going to be on guard against any duplicate/backup roleclaims, but was NOT expecting it to happen from Brewers or this fast.If this follows the rest of my theory, that would mean Brewers-as-Thanos is either a SK/solo victor or unattached scum who needs a cop to find and rule out their own partners while hunting stones. He would only JUST have gotten LWW's cop power though, and make first use of it on N4.This would also mean that Brewers-as-Thanos is 2 stones away from either flat-out winning or whatever condition is triggered by getting all the stones. Velocity we know (except for MK) has the Mind stone, the other Stone is elsewhere. If two stones fall in a single night or Lynch+Night, this could be an IMMEDIATE Game Over.Obviously none of this is proven, but there is enough here that I am now a bit concerned about Brewers and it is leaving me a bit conflicted. SO! Options: Brewers is town, claim is legit, and his Doctor is a VERY useful role to try and keep us/stones alive and buy more time to scumhunt Brewers is scum (but not Thanos), fakeclaiming as Universal Backup with unverifiable actions and knowing there's nothing currently known/claimed to counter it Brewers is Thanos (!!), as an unaligned SK/solo victor. He has the Doctor and now Cop, but we don't know what else he has just from being Thanos - bulletproof, etc?. Literally everything else Brewers has claimed about trying to protect DF, trying to hunt scum to prove himself, etc, would all still be true. He would also be 2 stones or one bad night away from victory. Brewers is Thanos (!!), as a detached scum traitor who would need the Cop/etc roles to find other scumScenario 2 where Brewers is just scum and scrambling for a claim that matches the now-public facts is least interesting, but would mean he could/should be tested. Scenario 3 where Brewers is Thanos but NOT scum is a pickle. We couldn't count on him to keep Velocity alive for real because he'd want the stone, but he'd otherwise want to work with us to find a scum to try and "prove" himself. He could also be trying to push for non-scum lynches to get himself more stones, though at this point he wouldn't have had a Cop yet to have tested anyone. Scenario 4 where Brewers is Thanos AND scum, means that he is isolated away from the rest of the scum and wins with them. He might throw a scum under the bus to prove himself, but at this stage in the game with no scum deaths yet I'd be more inclined to look at whoever he ISNT attacking - he might be trying to secure a group win. All of the above scream that Brewers should actually be a lynch candidate for today - but it is counterbalanced by Scenario 1, wherein he could ACTUALLY be a claimed doctor. This is why him matching my Thanos theory so well is frustrating - I can see VERY REAL reasons to want to vote him now, possibly a bigger win than iSoc2 being scum if Thanos can only be killed by lynch or something, but it's unproven and we risk losing a second chance Doctor if he really IS legit. I am leaning toward Thanos being the SK/solo option as well. However to both you and DF I'll caution that at THIS point with a potential Thanos candidate on the field, keeping that last stone hidden/unclaimed is probably our best defense. Something something keep Gamora hidden, keep her safe, etc. Protecting that last stone outweighs the value of trying to trip someone up with name claims, especially per prior discussion where we think safe claims are provided anyway. So where does this leave me? The coincidence is too much for me to NOT suspect Brewers more now, but I am for the moment going to tie him to iSoc2 per scenarios 2 & 4 above - if he is trying to ignore iSoc2, then that may mean he is scum trying to preserve scum, possibly for the win. If iSoc2 is today's lynch and he flips scum, then I will probably push for Brewers and Lyner as two key remaining scum. Perhaps we will gain more information overnight as well - a night of no deaths might help prove him, as could whatever investigation/tracking abilities remain alive. But if another stone dies and Brewers remains unproven, we may have to make a very hard choice between him-as-doctor or him-as-Thanos. Or we could just lose tonight under scenario 3 where both Scum and Thanos make a kill on the same night and both stones die at once. No pressure, right? I'll really be curious to hear from TW about the game's setup when this is all over.

Dont have a lot of time this morning before work, I'll more fully parse what Imran posted when I get back. However your post at a glance looks like more of the same so I'll reiterate that at the end of my last post I'm asking a question about what TOWN role would square with Brewers' current set of facts: Makes sense for him to have taken no action on N1, per DF's claimAble to take action on both N2 and N3, per his own statementBeyond Brewers, a few thoughts about the game setup bounced through my head overnight, so want to get them out here. Basically it's speculation about Thanos, which may be increasingly relevant as we try to figure out his power set to either recognize him or figure out how we are supposed to counter him. I keep coming back to one of my earlier theories that the stones aren't just tracking Thanos' progress toward a win, it's also telling us that Thanos is getting a new power with each stone. This line of thought came from me skimming mafiascum last night while thinking about the Brewers' question, but literally the first alphabetical role is something called an Absorber. It pinged my memory of speculating about Thanos, so I want to get that out here as a theory. There's at least two possibilities for Thanos like that: TW has some hidden association of Stone-To-Power - i.e. Thanos gets stone X, this gives him power YTW is saying Thanos directly gets the powers of the dead stone holdersIn scenario 1, no idea what powerset he'd have. So I speculated briefly what the stones could do: Power - Killing role? (havent seen this used yet though)Space - maybe this lets him bus people around? Would be nuts in a role madness game...Time - maybe this gave him a stack of bulletproof or something?Mind - Some kind of investigation role to help him find more stone holders?Reality - Maybe some kind of tailor or framer power, i.e. alter realitySoul - Not sure about this one - I remember a game where someone could bring a player back to life briefly, maybe that fits?In scenario 2 though, Thanos would have started with Power and Space (whatever those are, if anything - scum faction kill and something else?) and then gotten Time (Doctor) on N1 and Reality (Cop) on N3. Mind (watcher) he wouldn't have yet because Velocity is alive, and we don't know what power goes with the last stone (Soul). In this theory, Doctor could protect fellow scum from like Tony's JoaT if it had a vig kill, and Watcher could be helpful to find doctors/bodyguards, but why would that make sense at ALL for Thanos to get a COP role? Unless MK was onto something when he said TW loves a SK. What if Thanos is either a scum traitor (thus detached from the main group) or a standalone winner like a SK, and he actually needs/wants to find the scum? Either to make himself look town, or to rule them out as stone holders? This all felt really neat to me to theorycraft up, so I wanted to throw this out there to talk about in addition to the question of whatever Brewers could be that is not scum. So if your answer would otherwise be "I can't think of anything" people will at least have something else to talk about. Anyway, i'll be back this afternoon.

Today looks like we are starting to spin with intertia and not a lot of movement, waiting for something to break the gridlock. Velocity didn't post before surgery, so probably gone until Saturday/Sunday. iSoc2 still AWOL. Might as well. I am the tracker. N1 I selected brewers, did not see anything N2 lilweirdward, did not see anything N3 lilweirdward again, he selected MK I selected LWW the second time because he RC'd cop but I didn't see him anything the second night. I appreciate your elaboration here, as now we can actually examine this for ourselves. Tracker would indeed follow the model of all the various observation variants being in game - Kevin's Voyeur (see what but not who on someone), Velocity's Watcher (see who but not what on someone), and now DF's Tracker (See target but not action for someone). Speaking objectively, this is the kind of claim results that someone could fake - your N2 and N3 are both related to an already-dead townie who claimed their results already and cannot dispute your final entry, so basically an excuse for seeing nothing the whole game. As an example of this, MK still suspects Velocity - despite their claim as Vision with the mind stone - because his results are basically nil. With that said, neither Kevin's D2 claim nor Velocity's D3 claim have produced actionable results either. Kevin was Lynched for his weak claim, and Velocity survived because of his stone role name getting him a second chance. For completeness I will point out that this does not, strictly speaking, eliminate the possibility that you are a scum JoaT who followed on N1 and did something else on N2 and N3, specifically because your N2 and N3 results are untestable. Brewers is the main one who confirms your role - both by having observed it initially, and later in today's postings confirming that on N1 he did nothing but claiming he took action on other nights. So despite the awkwardness of your situation, I think you can be looked at as 90% town - with the remaining 10% being that you and Brewers are somehow in this together; possible but less likely. This does explain quite a bit of your caginess, if TW pushed you to not talk about it. Dropping the 99.9% town clue was enough to eventually bring this all out. It's dangerous to speculate overly much on scum intentions because you'll end up in logical circles, but I'll game this out since you've proposed a scenario. Your "If I was scum DF would be dead N1 because I knew he was tracker" could be matched by "I knew DF was tracker on N1 but will vet me as town if needed due to my helping him, especially if he doesn't see ME do anything tonight - so we can try for a better target tonight and kill him tomorrow if nothing better claims." That would have indeed been a risky scum play however, as DF could have changed his follow target after his mistake. I actually stated in my post that this was the thing that conviced me he was scum. He was on my scum list but I may not have voted for him early until I saw if there were any useful results from night. But the sudden attack out of nowhere right after I posted that I suspect that town is being led to mislynches just confirmed it. He knew I was going to come after him so he jumped in first so that my vote on him looks like a OMGUS. I am not fully conviced regarding iSoc. It is possible he is one of brewers'scum partners but he did call out lww a couple of times if I remember correctly. The lww/brewers duo looked strange to me on Day 2. It pointed to close coordination to lynch. However scum would not work so openly together also, but maybe they may have thought they will never suspect scum to be working together. Now however, lww has been confirmed town. My theory here is that brewers latched on to a very townie looking player so that he looks townie by association also. A common smart scum tactic. lww may have been role blocked on N2, he said he got not action on Day 2. That explaing why you didnt see lww do anything. Not sure if it was townie roleblocker or scum. Brewers not doing anything on N1 is interesting also. All scum may not have power roles. We have seen every avenger who has died has a power role. This may be my first mafia game in a while, but sometimes when someone abruptly changes their stance on someone it meant they have new information that they don't want to claim openly but are hoping that their shift will tip others to follow them. After he started attacking you so strongly Imran, I thought that he was about to claim a result that might explain the 'why' - however since then his justifications have primarily appeared to be reading into professional scum tells. A shift can also happen after mafia get a chance to discuss at night their strategy for the next day, based on whatever information they may have. So either way, it was notable and worth watching for cues or clues. I really dont get what sort of reaction is making everyone ignore iSoc2's still-unexplained attacks on our cop and long periods of inactivity that match with laying low while wagons build on everyone else. You, Lyner, and Brewers are all seeming to give him a pass here. Given how much Brewers is attacking you I'd hesitate to say you're on the same team - unless this is one HELL of a distancing tactic - but this really doesnt feel like a coincidence to me that people who seem like they would normally attack inactivity as scummy are instead letting it slide. Probably the only objectively new/useful bit of information out of your post is this final observation that DF claims Brewers did nothing on N1. In a role madness game that's odd. Rattling off some possibilities: Per Imran's line of attack later in today's posts, Brewers is scum and had someone else take faction actions for the night so he would seem to be doing nothingBrewers is town (or SK) and waited so DF would report him doing nothing. Beyond getting DF to say so, not sure if this makes sense.Brewers is town but either couldnt or didnt use his power on N1. Conserving an X-shot skill, limited by even-night modifier, biding his time, etc. What skills make sense to either have such modifiers or NOT using them every possible night?Brewers DID take action on N1 but was unobservable for some reason. Scum ninja, a role that doesnt GO anywhere so Tracker can't respond to it, etc?Any other ideas?In order to figure out what's going on between Brewers and Imran/Robert that he has voted between today, this might be how we figure out what is going on. Or you didnt kill him to get DF on your side, which would explain the message you sent him, showing him you did a townie thing. That possibility did not escape me, but there is no way for me to confirm one or the other without sacrificing a night. It is indeed important to acknowledge things that are not confirmed. It not being confirmed does not make it true or false, just that you have to consider both cases. I clarified by saying I have a "feeling". There is no way to have proof regarding this role. The couple of indications is (i) Cop is present in game -> Mod has to give Scum team some protection for balance and (ii) Brewers did no action on N1 -> fits with Godfather (iii) The game flavor states that Thanos is sending his lieutenants out to kill, in movie also he does this first and only when his lietenants start getting killed off he takes a direct hand in things. There may be some town-themed roles also which are passive so I cannot be 100% sure, but all Avengers that have died so far had power roles. Imran had an interesting concept that Brewers could be a 'Godfather' scum. Per mafiascum that is a scum role which investigates as innocent if a normal cop targets him, but other types of cop could get their usual results. However Imran appears to be using the term to instead just mean a scum that is sitting back and not being active while the others in their team are using roles/doing kills/etc. This is very clearly speculation on Imran's part to try and square the "Brewers did nothing on N1 as claimed by DF." It WOULD explain why someone in a role madness game would do nothing on a given night, but per my list above it is also not the only answer to that question. As MK notes here, there is no existing proof that this is the case. It would be an interesting flavor/theme concept though, to have Thanos be a Godfather that the rest of his team would try and preserve - despite Brewers himself very much NOT playing it safe or quiet in the slightest, lol. Speculation is good to come up with theories that might make sense or hold water to explain other known facts, but like everything else it's unproven until we start linking them to something or have something more solid to hold them up. Brewers states here that he did actions on following nights. If this is accurate it suggests Brewers has a role that for some reason doesn't make sense to use every night, and not just an even-night modifier. With DF not dead, if Brewers is scum he did so knowing DF /could/ be tracking him again, though maybe less likely for a repeat of the same target.My first thought was some sort of SK or Vigilante, but we have not seen a 2-kill night... so unless one of these nights was actually a scum kill blocked and Brewers' kill getting through (or Brewers' kill blocked and scum kill continuing as normal), I'm not sure Brewers can be a vigilante. I'm not sure how the blocking would happen either; our Doctor died on N1 and while Zacch protected Imran and Velocity on N2/N3 respectively, if Brewers-as-Vig-or-SK tried to kill them at that time it would have resulted in Zacch dying. ... I cant think of any other roles that would make sense to not use every night if you have them.Brewers does not need to claim unless he wants to, but pulling this thread of "not active on N1 but active on other nights" it is difficult to think of what town-aligned roles he COULD be. This doesnt really make much sense. My thoughts on D3 had my scum list as Robert, Velocity and Jazzy. And then Velocity RCd and I said I would have to change my scum list and you said the same thing...(u miught have said it first). Then Jazzy flipped town... So obviously the scum suspects needed to change since Robert wasnt going to be the only scum in the game haha. Not sure how going back through the game to try to figure out who is actually scum would be considered scummy lol If anything, thats your number one responsibility as a townie I never once thought Imran was town. Its not like I went from Imran is Town to Imran is scum. My thoughts on Imran were i wasnt sure and he could go either way. It wasnt until today (D4) that imran said something that jumped off the page as super scummy to me. I then did a deep dive and went back through his posts and put everything he said to a test - "If Imran was scum why would he say this" versus 'If Imran was town why would he say this" and a ton of stuff jumped off the page to me as scummy. So thats why I changed from "not sure" on imran to thinking he is scum. If youre wondering, Robert is still on my list, so I havent changed on him You indeed never said Imran was town, but went more from neutral to attack. I somewhat covered this above earlier in this post - TLDR for the repeat I was thinking your change in stance could either be sign of new investigation information you were trying to convey without a claim or a scum strategy change - either one merited more possible attention. For clarity, paying attention to you does not mean I am calling the behavior scummy - I've been mostly open about my theories where I have them. I am obviously with you on having had to rewrite my suspect list for D4, after the multi-claim end to D3 upended it. Per earlier iSoc2 remains my main focus, perhaps with more emphasis now than before, and the rest of my list is public as well. Okay... now I'm current again. DF's claim has answered one question between him and Brewers, and raised another that will be up for Brewers to answer if he wants to. I'm not sure if it will help us at all, but right now i'm looking for any new information that may alter this limbo state. What strikes me the most is wondering exactly what kind of role Brewers could have that both fits the known facts and isnt some form of scum. I do NOT want to immediately start accusing Brewers because there could very easily be a role I'm not aware of/not thinking of that would explain everything, so I'm putting the question out to everyone, especially the mafia veterans here - what TOWN role could explain the facts as presented? If we can think of a hypothetical town role for Brewers that explains everything (without him needing to claim), we go back to status quo. If we CANNOT think of one, then that will make him start to appear more scummy by elimination. So... thoughts?

A lot less to parse tonight as opposed to yesterday. This is a lot to unpack, for what by your description may have just been a simple mistake. I'm going to break this down into parts, and am going to be a little critical/nitpicky based on what is actually proven versus just just implied/suspected, because lack of specificity can set off warning flags for me You wrote a role action publiclyPossibility 1: Your posting was accurate and implies your only rolePossibility 2: Your posting was accurate but your role or faction has multiple different abilities, and so a single night's posting could be misleadingPossibility 3: Your posting was inaccurate. This is technically possible, albeit unlikely. Since this was not in the ACTUAL thread anything is fair game there and that knowledge SHOULDNT affect the game here, but here we areTW deleted what you wrote but Brewers saw it and you know that Brewers saw itThe act of it being deleted denied this general knowledge to the thread, and turned it into almost a private roleclaim that nobody else got to see or question at the timeBrewers started acting like you were proven town and has had your back since then, tying himself to you as an ally for reasons that nobody else in the threat were privvy toYour statement "The action I did, to my knowledge does not have a scum variant"This is effectively asking us to accept your mistake as town proof confirmable only by Brewers, sight unseen for the rest of us, without letting us evaluate what action was done or compare it against anything else that may be known or have occurred that could confirm youYour role action post, even if it accurately identifies your role, is not a normal cop investigation result that confirms Not GuiltyOn the one hand, this could all be exactly as presented - an honest mistake that you tried to not discuss because it was outside of the thread On the other hand, there are a LOT of unanswered questions in this partial claim that we cannot simply take for granted I am NOT going to explicitly ask you to roleclaim, however at this point the partial information is already out here and affecting our conversation. Here are examples of the scenarios that worry me based on your explanation of all this: Without having seen the actual message, this kind of "oops wrong chat" could be a result of intending to post in a Mafia night chat insteadAnother Jack-of-all-Trades would not be unreasonable in a role madness game, especially if this is a scum JoaT used to balance out everything else in the game. A single night's role action post have portrayed you having only one power when that might not be accurate. You have not been tested by a normal cop or role cop, just what you posted that one person saw. In this scenario Brewers would be mistakenly defending you for OOC reasons and not realize why it could be wrongNothing about your post actually confirms Brewers in return, other than the fact that he has been treating you as Town for private reasons and not outed your mistake. Potential scenario where Brewers-as-scum is using this private, shared experience to buddy up and tie himself to you as a form of proving himself. If the basis for this was done openly in thread people might have remarked on it, but it's been kept hidden until now beyond his repeated 99.99% town references.The "it was there but deleted and nobody else saw it" aspect leaves open the potential that you two are a scum pair self-reinforcing each otherNone of these may be correct, but all of these are left possible due to what is unconfirmed at this point, the fact it has been kept quiet, and the fact that mentioning it was enough for Brewers to attack Lyner - i.e. trying to keep it quiet. Similar to how we could have saved Jazzy or Velocity if they had been forthright earlier with their claims, this could have affected earlier analysis and night actions for everyone. I'll leave it up to you how to proceed. For the moment I will consider you as less solidly proven than Brewers has been implying, until there is something more solid underneath it. Overall this is a more detailed day-by-day analysis. It does sound a bit defensive, but given how you and Brewers are going back-and-forth trying to out prove each other I'm going to chalk that up as just being your hitting back. The meat of it is your theory at the end - for brevity, the idea that TM was killed so Brewers could push Robert as scum for OOC reasons. While I do remember Brewers pushing Robert on D3, I went back to look at how the beginning of the day played out. Brewers had immediate outrage over Tony's death that Zacch felt was fake, but LWW was the first to float the "Robert did it for personal reasons" theory, then Brewers joined him on that wagon and adopted that line of attack. I can see how it is easy to miss where it was first stated, so I won't fully count this as a lie - similar to your "Pushing Two Townies" statement that appears rooted in Brewers' forceful attacks getting people like Zacch to vote with him so he appears to be a leader/driver. However my takeaway is that it doesnt fully help your case against Brewers either. Maybe ironic given that it's not presented as your theory, but I put more weight on your saying that Brewers' mindset has changed today over how he thought of you on previous days, as that is a more visible change in stance. Like a broken record. I've never known my style revolved around if I can't Lynch him I'll kill him. By that logic i should be killing you and Brewers right everytime I have a killing role. Your like a horse with blinders on. When scum my kills are calculated, not this fantasy of just killing the person I've put at the top of my scum list. If I was a vig, hey that makes sense. A vig kill from me to Tony made sense at the time. But no. I'm not a vig. So try again MK. Otherwise your just being unproductive to the town. @preston. I vote and comment on who I want when I want. If it's worth mentioning, I mention it. Don't like it too bad. It's very possible Isoc is scum, but my vote is mainly to get him to start posting. Especially with other prime players either forgetting or pretending to forget about him. I'm sure I did the same as Darkfox at one time. Shit happens in a pm where it's the last message that you got. Imran: gets around to posting actual reasoning to lynch Brewers after I said something about it. Probably should of been done that to begin with. Scum is likely within the following. Brewers, Lyner, Isoc, Imran, MK, Preston. Zacch is confirmed if not a lost puppy. Volcity has the last timestone, even though MK still thinks he's lying. Darkwolf had his mishap, and not all evidence was destroyed. I don't think his last post was necessary, but he felt it was necessary. (Huh.....that reminds me of another player this game. Not that it's been a MAJOR thing in this game. At least Brewers isn't jumping on it like the last one) Robert and MK keep going at it. I still do not think MK is scum, but "But I know he did it" REALLY doesnt move the needle for me when he admits upfront that he has no proof and that this is all based on knowing him personally. Also not really necessary for you to take my complaint about your post seriously, I know I was editing/composing for a long time. I'd rather see people actually voting and posting than not. We need more people to start taking sides in this mess. Even if you are only voting iSoc2 because he is inactive, in a sense that is exactly what I am worried about - that he is trying to wait out todays' wagons from the sidelines. If iSoc2 is the day's lynch and he flips scum, it will boost your standing for me. Robert definitely seems to be lashing out all over the place today. Your theory that he's trying to curry favor with Imran is interesting though, doubly so if you think it implies a SK in the mix. I was the SK in TW's Chamber of Secrets mafia with an even-night modifier, skipped Night 2 to lay low, and then won the game - so yes, this is a thing that happened. Nice to hear from you! I haven't seen your post yet at this point but I've also had the editor up for a while. I hope my walls are at least semi legible and helpful, lol! Let me know if any of it doesnt parse for you. We need to get more people out of the "not voting" category, and you are one of the only proven town at this point - or at least a big-name-stone-claim nobody else is disputing, which after this much time I think amounts to the same thing? The severity of these misrepresentations vary, and more seem a matter of degree/exaggeration than fully inventing something out of nothing. I can see the origin of #2 and #3 more readily per my earlier post - you led on Kevin then your forcefulness could have been seen as 'leading' on D3, and you adopted LWW's OOC reasoning against robert but were not the one to start it. The first one I am less sure what to say about it - an early vote is an early vote but it's not day ending. Given how divided we are I don't know that we'll get ANY wagon to 5 votes let alone 6. Much like Imran's theory against you that fails to land, I dont think you are breaking any NEW ground with this consolidation. That clears up things. Still scummy point on brewers for hinting it and misdirected the town. An investigative role could have wasted a shot investigating either you or brewers for this meta stuff I would vote him, but a mislynch today could make town lose. Gambling it all on one inactive player that doesn't respond to inquiries is just silly unless we can get an active replacement. Anyway I changed my mind I think MK might be the likeliest scum out of all three. This brewers/Imran banter just feels like things getting personal and finding things to confirm their own bias. Are you bragging that you are a smart SK Vote: MK Per earlier in this post I had quite a lot to say about DF's explanation, and there's a lot MORE that needs to be cleared up. Okay... you keep giving iSoc2 more and more of a pass here and that concerns me. I dont think this is "gambling" at all, I think he is our strongest candidate. The fact you raise mislynch as a potential makes me think you are trying to stave off iSoc2 as even being an option, which makes me want to pay even more attention to him - and by association, you. And then you vote MK, seemingly for his 2 scum and a SK theory. At least it's a vote SOMEWHERE so you're no longer in the "not voting" category, but this isn't helping your case. PGO kills someone if targeted but that’s usually a town roleSee the start of this post for all the implications of DF's claim and potential vagueness/inaccuracies that have not been confirmed. I do agree however that it would have prevented an investigation from being used on him - IF the circumstances of his claim were in the thread. Instead we just got you saying out of nowhere that he was 99.99% town, which if anything could have MOTIVATED investigations being used on him as a way of testing you, because nobody knew where you got that from. Similar to Jazzy and Velocity, partial data isnt sufficient. I also had to look up "PGO" - it resolved to Paranoid Gun Owner, a role that involuntarily kills everyone that visits them at night for ANY reason - cop, doctor, etc. This is also not usually a scum role, more of a land mine for both scum and town - it can kill mafia that try to kill them. This roughly tracks some of my thought process. iSoc2 needs to start posting and explain his attacking LWW on D2 and D3, staying off Kevin's wagon in favor of LWW, etc. He is my strongest suspect, and I suspect he will chain to more scum - most notably confirming him as scum would remove whatever doubts I'd have about Lyner, given how much Lyner is practically defending him at this point. Followup - No posts at all during my composition tonight. Hopefully we'll get to hear Velocity's perspective before his surgery. And on an out of game note, I hope your surgery goes well, whatever form it is!

Oh goddammit someone posted in the middle of my last posting x.x at least it's only one this time. Here I thought I was the only insane one awake at this hour. as far as I know. No. Yes I posted a lot, a WHOLE lot, and you posted while I was posting x.x Why are you commenting on Zacch? I guess because he's following Brewers' lead, voting for Brewers and then with him again - didnt we see that on D3? But he's basically proven town at this point. Lyner and iSoc trying to avoid notice I called out in my post, they're on my list. DF I'm not sure what's going on, his last question has me curious where that line of logic is leading but at least he is posting. There's the whole unresolved link to Brewers to unwind too. I"m going to guess that "MK and Brewers now being themselves" is just a further dig into whatever OOC beef you three have between each other, so skipping that. Imran trying to [goad] you into voting for Brewers makes sense if Brewers is labeling you two as scum together and he wants to build a Brewers wagon to counter the Imran wagon. And you both COULD be scum together if Brewers turns out to be right in his analysis, so saying that you two are trying to get on a wagon together doesnt really move the needle at all. Aaaaand now you're voting for iSoc2 and I dont know how to feel about that after just writing my last massive post. On the one hand it doesn't change my prior analysis - iSoc2 feels the greatest threat and likelihood of flipping scum, but now Robert jumping on this wagon - or I guess STARTING it, he wrote while I was writing - feels like a chance to test Robert by testing iSoc2. If iSoc2 flips scum, that will boost Robert's case and make me think Brewers' language analysis/etc was overreaching. If iSoc2 flips town then Robert will move up quite a lot. Okay for REAL now this time, going to bed til tomorrow x.x

Even at this hour after doing CN update attacks, people are posting! Let's handle these few and get current... This is an interesting concept. I ended up googling "congratulating the doctor" and it took me to JEEP's Tells for Finding Mafia. I can see the logic behind some of it, but it also appears sorta thin and based on the assumption that people generally know what they're doing but also forget themselves?Where is the line between "posting it to act like town by stating the obvious" and "actual town acting like town stating the obvious"? After all my time spent reading and posting today I dont want to go back and review the beginning of every day looking for these tells, so I'll take this category of content with a grain of salt for now and try to focus on more concrete in game actions like votes, activity, and contradictions. One last thing- this feels weird too. Saying he’s going to respond but can’t and just is trying to prevent me from saying he’s ducking… blames RL… look I get it, rl can make things hard for mafia but at the same time, I get vibes of stalling here/ an attempt to buy some time so imran can come up with a lie/story of why I’m scum and he’s town. Much of this second post appears to be doubling down on the same kind of behavioral cues. Maybe this is just next-level play and par for veterans, but I have difficulty putting TOO much stock into it. I also have trouble understanding why someone defending Kevin was inherently such a scum tell on Day 2. Obviously scum would /know/ he is town and thus be free to proclaim Kevin's innocence to make themselves look good, but beyond the sheer awkwardness of Kevin's claim was also the idea that it made very little sense for him to have preemptively thrown himself out there for no benefit if he were scum. The only rationale - which both he and Brewers acknowledged - was explaining himself /just in case/ he was tracked/watched/etc. But there were no claims forcing him, and no attack line he was pursuing with his claim. While I seem to have been the only one to react to his role name of Black Widow, I don't inherently find it odd that at least SOME people would have erred on the side of "There is no reason for kevin-as-scum to have done this." I'm also going to net-neutral Imran's last post since I myself have had to post in broken parts today, and Imran has posted enough times today that I don't think he's trying to be inactive or avoid notice. If he has something to say then I'll parse it when he says it, but he only hurts himself by delaying so if you've got some logic to argue your position then get it out here. Granted I probably won't get to read it til tomorrow afternoon again, but such is life. It's a tough situation, it's easier to dig more by engaging with active players. Which is why I always advocate for lynching the inactives early in the game. I'm all for pressuring him to be more active. Mafia side could be given safe name claims need more time to think of Imran Lyner - I'll cover iSoc2 here more presently, but SERIOUSLY??? "engaging with active players" reads the same to me as "ignoring scum pretending to be inactive"!! One of the main reasons you drew notice was seeming inactivity and trying to avoid attention. The same logic was applied to Jazzy and Velocity in turn when their wagons were being considered. Seem it would be a scum dream to just sit out the discussion entirely with everyone fighting over the ACTIVE players while you coast by unchallenged. Responding to Lyner's response to Zacch - the concept of a safe name claim is that TW gave the scum a name that nobody else has, so that they don't instantly give themselves away when claiming a role. This is a point Brewers and LWW made to me very strongly on D2, that just having a main character name like Black Widow shouldn't be taken as proof. I was skeptical about this at the time, and then on D3 the general consensus shifted to instead say "name claims done mean anything UNLESS it's a stone role which shouldn't be able to be faked." We have yet to see a fake stone name claim (or fake ANY name claim), but just because there is no counter name claim doesn't mean the name is real. It is possible that TW split things up so that scum would have a few choice safe name claims, but there is no way of knowing if "stone names are safe" has exceptions. At THIS point I don't want Velocity to die just to test that theory, despite his lackluster Watcher results that would otherwise be VERY easy for scum to fake - i.e. "I have a role but I never actually saw anything." After a brief search I found references to Weak modifier roles, but that is less something where it's a scum power and more a modifier on the town role that investigates them. If a 'weak' town acts on a scum player, it kills the town. I also saw reference to (ironically) an Avenger bodyguard role that kills the one who kills their target, but I think that would only apply if scum had their own bodyguard and were using it to ward off a vigilante kill - where vigilante is a town role that gets a night kill of their own. I'll ask the obvious question of being curious why you would ask about this, since you've opened the topic? At this point just about all theories and arguments need to come out. Okay - now down to the actual list of those who remain, that are not otherwise proven. 1. Lord MK - likely town, despite continued aggression against Velocity/vision and changing his "robert killed/orchestrated killing of Tony" storyVoted Velocity early, still maintains doesnt believe Velocity's claim, but despite this he voted for Robert instead of Velocity todayBrewers saying leaving his 'vote' there is just what Town MK does - I guess that's history, though I dont like considering itIncluded in a post that Robert 'killed Tony' then walked it back by saying it was his buddies after Robert challenged it - story changing inconsistency2. Brewers - overall neutral, could see as leaderly town or very experienced scum manipulating newer playersAggressive/forceful leader that pushes for his target but also clearly experienced. Up til today I didnt even consider him as potential scum, but with about half the game proven I now need to reconsider that he could be scum leading us aroundStarted Kevin's wagon on D2, part of wagons on D3 but less a driverPushed for claims on D3 - this is both a pro and a con as it got Velocity to speak up and defend himself, was a bit late to save Jazzy, and it outed LWW/Zacch's rolesD4 seems more based on behavioral cues than actual content, waffling between Imran and Robert and back again. Unanswered question from clue that Brewers dropped about DF - Lyner has called this out and Brewers attacked Lyner for even asking the question. Brewers is using this as seeming proof that DF is town.DF and Brewers were on the Kevin wagon. If both are town then the entire wagon had no scum on it, but per sheer numbers it feels strange that there wouldn't even be ONE scum on there at all. That could actually be the case, but 3. Robert - neutral, aggressive today, seems to have OOC issues with MK and Brewers that is being used to supplement his 'early on Kevin' status Early/earliest defender of Kevin on D2 - this was taken as a scum tell, though I don't fully see itOOC attacks on Tony prior to Tony's death - I don't like considering this as a factor because it would mean he could be throwing the game for the scum based on something personal.Voted for Tony with Kevin prior to Tony's death; when Tony was killed this gave appearance of Robert being framed because everything lined up and felt TOO obviousAntagonism with Brewers and MK, which broke out into Robert being a LOT more aggressive todayRobert attacked/challenged MK for having said Robert "killed Tony", and then MK revised his statementBrewers calling out behavioral posts by Robert today that per the "congratulating the doctor" theory indicate he was scum trying to show fake sympathy/shock/outrage4. Lyner - leaning scum due to trying to avoid notice and giving iSoc2 a passOn Tony wagon with Robert and Kevin on D2No vote at end of D3Generally inactive until today, flying below radar and seeming distracted/not paying attention or scumhunting. voted iSoc1.0 who had just died, for example.Gives iSoc2 a very vague pass as 'inactive lol' - despite that being the definition of someone trying to avoid attentionProvoking Brewers with an unanswered question that Brewers apparently "dropped a clue" about DF, to the point that Brewers attacked him back. Pending how that question/situation resolves it may affect whether Lyner was actually being observant about something.5. Imran - neutral, seemed even-tempered and analytical on earlier days but now squabbling with BrewersSimilar to Brewers I wouldn't have been considering Imran possible scum until I've had to rebuild my suspect list today. It's possible that means he's scum and playing a good game to keep himself from tripping flagsGot more into an argument with Brewers today, including what is effectively an OMGUS vote right after Brewers voted for himNot on Kevin's wagon on D2, on argument Kevin wouldn't be that stupid as scumVoted Jazzy on D2 instead of Kevin's Tony wagon based on 'gut feeling' - could be vote spreadingKevin admitted his own Tony wagon was thin at the time, so this is not completely a scum move Jazzy was doing a "reluctant voting" thing that drew attention and FoS from others as wellMuch of the argument for him today looks based on the same "congratulating the doctor" reading into posts, which I do not fully put stock in.Pending when we find an actual scum to start mapping between them this may change, but for the moment I think he isnt the strongest lynch target 6. Preston - This is me. Town, as every townie will say is the basis of their analysisTrying to focus on what people have actually done in terms of voting/choices made/inconsistencyDon't have the history/beef with some players in this game so attempting to disregard OOC influences that others are fixated onApparently my post lengths are practically a memeVoted/started Zacch on D2 in an attempt to shift wagon to something more solid than Tony (the wagons didnt move/consolidate), and then emergency shift to Jazzy on D3 to save Velocity/Vision7. darkfox - Questionable, linked to Brewers?Overall seems interested in scum hunting but less frequently posting - not that I'm a huge poster eitherSeveral newer-player questions but actually seems engaged in the gameOn Kevin's D2 wagon with BrewersIf Brewers and Df are town, no scum at all on Kevin's wagon - but if by sheer numbers there were SOME scum on the wagon, they could be a self-reinforcing pair togetherNot voting at end of D3Biggest unanswered question is whatever is going on between him and Brewers. I missed when this first showed up in the thread, but apparently Lyner caught it and it got a reaction from Brewers. Brewers has been saying DF is 99.9% town, unknown the basis or if it's reciprocated or what. Because it's been repeated so much I think it needs to be explained.8. Isoc(2) - strong scum feel due to inactivity, isolated D2 wagon, twice singling out LWW for no reason, staying on Velocity after vision claimReplaced Bryan who had gone inactiveAppeared at end of D2 and voted LWW out of nowhere on gut feeling - vote spreading away from all other wagons, no rationale givenSemi inactive/hiding throughout D3. When I pressed about his D2 LWW vote he repeated that he suspected LWW but it was still gut feeling. Kept vote on Velocity through end of D3 - stayed off Jazzy wagon and/or hoped Velocity/Vision would get lynched anyway? Also questioned in an odd way if Velocity actually had the stone, which drew attentionWith LWW flipping town cop and stone role, this puts iSoc2's earlier no-reason attacks in a different lightSomehow his inactivity and actions keep getting ignored by EVERYONE it feels like. I am starting to wonder if this is a sign of collaborationLyner gave him a pass as "inactive lol", which seems farcical in a game like this. Brewers all but skipped him in his suspect list, acting like he didnt care about iSoc2 and left it to someone else to get into why - despite my prior day posts going into some detail about why :-/ (feels great for my analysis efforts to be noticed/remembered I swear -.-) UPDATED SCUM THEORY LIST iSoc2.0 - Per above he is my first choice. Too much he has done has seemed deliberate to avoid notice, he has been given a pass by Lyner and Brewers both, but I dont think it would be limited to those two if I did a re-read of the rest of the thread. Lyner - similarly inactive and seeming to cover for iSoc2, but with the added unresolved aspect of the question he is posing to Brewers about DF. Something like that needs to shake out, but that failing if iSoc2.0 flips scum then I would be 75% convinced Lyner is as well Brewers/DF - For the moment I am treating these two as a unit, because of whatever is going on between them that has had Brewers confidently selling DF as town since D2. Looking for scum options I am considering the potential that they are a self-reinforcing pair, each vouching for the other but nobody independently vetting either. It's also possible Brewers-as-scum is latching onto DF-as-town to prove himself. Imran - While I am mostly neutral about this due to his seeming helpfulness, if the Brewers/DF situation resolves to where both appear town then Imran will be next on the list due to how forcefully Brewers is pushing for him. I cannot ignore the potential that Imran is a skillful scum player who has managed to avoid notice by seeming to be helpful throughout Robert - The other wagon today, and the "Too obvious" wagon of D3 before Velocity was nearly lynched. My disinclination to believe all the OOC beef about Tony and between Robert/Brewers/MK has reduced much of his culpability down to being early on Kevin's Tony wagon, but similar to Imran if the Brewers/DF situation resolves then he will move up in the ranking. I'll go back and comb his posts for giving iSoc2 a pass later, but for now it's nearly 4 AM and I'm about to pass out. So with this in mind: Vote: iSoc2.0 I think the actual events surrounding iSoc2 are more compelling than the behavioral/OOC beef that are tied up in the Brewers/Robert/Imran wagons, that his selective hiding and caginess about having attacked LWW is an issue, and that testing him will potentially chain/confirm Lyner as scum. It is not hard to imagine iSoc2 got replaced instead of modkilled as Bryan because he is an important scum role that TW could not let just die, and that since then he has been laying low to preserve himself - boosted by the fact that since he is a replacement his early game history/etc got disrupted. I'll check in with the thread tomorrow afternoon when I get home to see where this has led us!

Doing this in steps, but for now have an unofficial vote count Brewersalliance (0): Imran EhsanDarkfox (0):Imran Ehsan (0): iSocialism2.0 (0): Brewersalliance, ZacchLord MK (0):Lyner (0):Preston (0):Robert2424 (0): Lord MKVelocity (0):Zacch (0): Votes In Order MK -> RobertBrewers -> ImranBrewers -> RobertImran -> BrewersBrewers -> ImranZacch -> BrewersZacch -> Imran Correct me if I missed anything.

Also TW, can we get an updated vote count? Otherwise I'll be re-skimming this prior to my next post.

Okay apparently the active time for this group is in the middle of the day, and you people have been going at it like crazy since my last post @.@ I'm going to limit the sheer number of multiquotes I pick and respond to some others for brevity trying to track all the back and forth you lot have had. And I say "back and forth" because it feels like there's some personal grudges at play here beyond just game analysis. We now know Zacch's protection targets (Brewers, Imran, Velocity) and that Velocity watched LWW and saw nothing, which supports theory of a scum roleblocker. With the actual cop dead and velocity known/blockable, I can only assume they'll keep him blind the rest of the game. However if they want to finish getting stones then Zacch will actually give them a problem - they'd have to spend a night kill on Zacch to remove his Bodyguard unless they block him in order to get Velocity. Which leads me to MK's post that I'll trim for brevity - mingled kill/role information is great, amused you're calling LWW "Lily", but then we have this: I don't believe his claim at all. Look at his results N1, no result N2, Didn't see anything N3, No result A bit too convenient for me. As for vision not countering, well that's one thing. Thus why I'm not voting for him currently. There it is, folks. He got really defensive as predicted. So you didn't make the kill, your buddy did? Well regardless you orchested it I won't disagree that Velocity's watcher has provided us relatively little in terms of scumhunting, but if it's confirmed a roleblocker that's at least SOMETHING? ... except as I write this, I have to say that he hasnt CONFIRMED a roleblocker, just stated he's getting No result. Devils' advocate to satisfy my OCD: If I assume that per MK Velocity is actually scum and has Vision as a safeclaim - Vision isnt ACTUALLY one of the original 'avengers' - but neither was Dr. Strange. We also didn't expect Star-Lord to have the Reality stone vs The Collector, so TW could be taking some creative liberties here - maybe to prevent the idea that someone claiming a stone role would instantly prove them town? That is also EXACTLY what happened on D3, we all rapidly pivoted from Velocity onto Jazzy as soon as 'Vision' was mentioned. Giving one such role to scum MIGHT make sense, but it still feels a stretch. And then we have the beginning of MK and Robert going back and forth. MK did say that Robert killed Tony as if it's been proven, which is a big statement - though Robert's reaction is basically a challenge to back it up and delivered not exactly calmly. And then your response is instead saying someone else made the kill? Literally speaking that IS changing your story, but moreover it reinforces that this whole mess between you two feels to be personality/history based instead of game content related. Somewhat out of order, but next we have Brewers - who overall thus far in the day seems to be going back and forth between Robert and Imran in a similar manner as MK. Before things get personal, you have some good analysis of your town/scum list to help us narrow down who remains. I kindof blinked a bit at your statement that refusing to take a vote off Velocity is just something Town MK does... I'll just chalk that up to history, since I don't see MK as scum. Feels like this could be fishing to get dark fox to give out some info to know if he is a good target for scum or not Isoc 2... yeah someone else needs to jump into him for me, idk who he even replaced... Imran An extremely common scum move is commenting on how much a night kill hurt the town, or if a kill is blocked how good that is. And im thinking that might be the case here Vote imran In order: At this point in the day Robert is just a continuation of yesterday, which seems predicated on him being early to jump on Kevin and then his OOC dislike of Tony being treated as a reason the scum killed him.Lyner merits a listing here for calling out something Brewers said earlier, aside from just his inactivity that had been suspicious enough in itself, though today he is posting. iSoc2... I had him as my #2 suspect yesterday before Velocity claimed; none of that sank in? Not even the part where on D2 and D3 both he picked out LWW as his target? I guess I"ll be the 'someone else' at the end of this post and bring all that up again. Imran - this surprised me a lot when I got to this point. So far Imran's posts have read as fairly even-mannered, and I am failing to see the logical contradiction in what Brewers quoted here - just "This is no good" as the basis for a vote, not taking into account anything else like voting at this point in time? Maybe I"m not up on Scum Tells 101 but this felt like a D1 or D2 rationale.And of course Imran calls that out immediately: wow..thats very thin. I am actually very leery of any assumptions you make, because you have led and organized the lynch of tow townies so far. You were also about to lynch Velocity before Velocity claimed stone. I am at the this point wondering your outrage at the death of TM was not all a show or not. If you are scum you have led the town on a merry chase. And here again a quick jump on the Robert wagon. Lets remember we may be at a LYLO situation as Lyner had commented earlier. But you seem to want to end the day early basing your votes on one line of what I had said. Vote: brewers On one level this is an OMGUS vote. On the other, this does indeed feel 'thin' from Brewers - it matched my reaction when I read these posts. However from here things took a dive off the deep end because Imran said that Brewers has "led and organized the lynch of [two] townies so far". My first thought was that Imran wasnt FULLY wrong - Brewers owns that he STARTED the Kevin wagon, and he remained a forceful voice on D3 if not 'THE' driving voice on his own. Before that though Imran addressed DF and myself, and that merits a look. I am confused with this comment. lww claimed cop and then said he found zacch to be "not guilty". Are you trying to say you didnt think he was the real cop? Dont get this also. lww admitted to being cop and said he found Zacch to be not guilty. He was killed and was confirmed as real cop. What am I missing? Why do you still think he is "likely" town? Per later posts DF seemed confused about cop results - but the most basic cop (which LWW was) returns guilty or not guilty. I think what's going on at this point is losing track of the sequence of events at the end of D3, which is crazy enough to read back on: Jazzy claimed as Role Cop, which gets results of who has what role. Said that Zacch is Bodyguard and LWW is Cop (normal cop)Jazzy gets lynched and flips town, which means his results can be treated as accurate - so at THAT point we knew LWW was a normal copThere is no use for scum to have a normal cop unless they are hunting another faction or SK or something, so this means that everybody would have treated LWW as proven town today, and so he would not have been a prime suspectImran also nitpicks my post. Per the same rationale as above, we had proof that Zacch is a Bodyguard, but it's not as definitive as a normal cop's Guilty/NotGuilty result. I didn't give the Zacch-as-scum theory much weight because I think it'd be a stretch, but it IS possible. I believe in that same post I openly questioned whether it made sense for scum to have a Bodyguard - given that we've already seen a JoaT, that is at least one killing role to have prospectively defended against. In the midst here we now have so many quotes from Brewers, and I can't quote those in their entirety because otherwise I might find the limit to how long a post is able to BE. The overarching emphasis looks to be pointing out that he was not first on Jazzy on D3, and thus not the leader against TWO town, just Kevin - and using that as a reason to double down on Imran. In the midst of this though Brewers brings up the idea that Kevin's wagon was 100% town, listing everyone that has since been revealed - with himself and DF on the list and unproven. Obviously everyone assumes their own towniness and per what Lyner is bringing up, Brewers apparently has some proof about DF so he is not questioning there. If we assume Brewers is town and his proof on DF is legit, then the Kevin wagon really WAS all town - however by sheer numbers a part of me calls out the oddity that not a single scum would have gotten in on the wagon early to make sure it happened, especially since it was D2 and Kevin gave such a perfectly awkward claim to rally around. Brewers was very proud of having started the Kevin wagon. If Brewers is scum, he started the wagon early and then let everyone else bandwagon and then feel contrite about it on D3. Devil's advocate for my OCD, Brewers was very strong to dismiss my returning reaction that Kevin's Black Widow claim should have carried weight, wondering aloud why we were talking about this at all. This ironically came back with Velocity's claim on D3. However it's also true that LWW supported Brewers' statement that TW has given main character safeclaims before. I probably wouldnt even be considering Brewers as potential scum without his own logic of claiming the wagon was all town, and without him being one of the last few unproven so we have to start sifting the remaining players. So I could see this going either way, but he's at/near the bottom of my list - or will be once I condense all these thoughts. May require a followup post, this is getting insanely long. Robert comes back to attack Zacch's choice for protecting Velocity's Stone over LWW's Cop. Both could have been scum targets last night, but the stones could be an instant game over so I can't fault Zacch's choice here. It feels odd Robert wants to be THIS critical however. Robert doubles down on attacking/challenging MK - basically not letting go of MK's initial claim that Robert killed Tony and then changing story - and then calls out Brewers for going back and forth. And then Robert calls me out for my style. Feels a little like he's covering all the bases here. You're not wrong that I haven't posted since last night, and now I've spent way too long reading and composing THIS mess since you all posted multiple pages during the day This kind of analysis is kindof my thing, and as for not pushing peoples' buttons - Given how much of this game so far seems to be driven by personality and grudges and history, I'm wondering if just not being part of that makes me look like I'm avoiding buttons. I think this is the most Lyner's had in a single post thus far, and actually lays out a list of people. Good to see more activity, as lurking made him seem more scummy - this also applies to iSoc2 as I'll get to it later. He could still be scum and just putting in a showing today. So shortlist Brewers/Imran/MK for scum as the scum 'lead', and calls out Brewers knowing something about DF againiSoc2 gets a blithe pass with "Inactive lol"... why is he just being allowed to skate by unchallenged by seemingly everyone?Robert is just 'grumpy' - seems a lot more attack mode today with MK and Brewers, and lashing out at nearly everyone - not playing it quiet at ALL nowVelocity gets suspicion, which is funny because that MK's thoughts and seemingly nobody else's, and MK is on Lyner's mastermind shortlist. Also some interesting theories about whether the stones are as unquestionable as they appear. Snipped this bit from Robert out of the back and forth between him and Brewers because he calls out the potential for Brewers and I to be a team. Again it may just be that I'm not bringing in history and grudges into this game. He also lashes out some more at Lyner and - surprisingly - iSoc2. If he is just in attack-everyone mode today, I'm not sure if that makes him more town or more scum. As scum he could be trying to land /any/ hit that he can. As town he could just be unafraid to speak his mind and snap back against everyone. I was under the impression that there was only one type of cop. Also I was pretty suspicious of Zacch Not sure why I multiquoted this anymore, been writing too long. This gets clarified by Brewers too but for completeness - we have had multiple investigative and tracking roles in this game, but every one has been slightly different in what it returns. Normal cops return guilty/not guilty; role cops tell you the role but not guiltiness, which makes you guess scum affiliation based on roles. Watchers like Velocity can watch a person to see who visited them but not what they did. Kevin's voyeur says what happened, but not who did it. Etc. In a Role Madness game like this one, TW appears to have dropped a bunch of potentially conflicting roles and hoped that we would start cross-accusing each other. A JoaT like Tony had is usually a scum role, as is Jazzy's role cop - ways for scum to find people for their kills. It's also critical to have multiple kinds of cops because it's not uncommon for scum to be immune to one kind of investigation or another - immune to normal cop but not to being watched, immune to being watched but normal cop can ID them, etc. Zacch comes back and posts/votes critical of Brewers for pushing claims yesterday. Condensing several posts of conversation for brevity, Brewers explains himself that full claiming would have helped more people previously, and Zacch swaps to join Brewers instead. This underscores both Brewers' persuasive nature that would make this an utter terror if he's really been scum all this time, since he gets Zacch with him so easily. I'm not sure if name claiming Star-Lord would have relayed that LWW had a stone though, without seeing it as part of the role itself - consensus appeared to be that we were thinking The Collector was in the game. It might not have changed Zacch's protection choice though - even if recognized and there were two stones known, it would have been 50/50 to guard the right one. And this is where I started posting You've got this much from me for now. I'm going to get dinner, then will do the second half to post my own list presently. I don't believe his claim at all. Look at his results N1, no result N2, Didn't see anything N3, No result A bit too convenient for me. As for vision not countering, well that's one thing. Thus why I'm not voting for him currently. There it is, folks. He got really defensive as predicted. So you didn't make the kill, your buddy did? Well regardless you orchested it Also there's one duplicate multiquote at the end, but when I hit 'preview' it emptied the editing window so I couldnt cut it out x.x I think I was reading/editing for too long, lol. But yeah, back after dinner.