BeeBs

I'll take this as an opportunity to move on. As I said, I'm still interested in looking at those who killed Tracker. @KevinH: On a different note, could you explain why you still think there is a cop out there? Maybe that can move us towards finding out who it is. Can we get some discussion going on if there is a cop out there that they should role claim? At this point if we mis lynch we loose, so if they have something confirmed wouldn't it be the best case that they reveal that information? Or maybe wait and see if we're about to lynch someone they know to be townie to reveal themselves at that point? Just a little guidance or discussion so we can help use the Cop tool to our most advantageous position. If it doesn't benefit us, we should discuss that to. I'm not so much taking a position here as advocating that we should discuss if we can use this tool, or if we think there is even a cop out there at all. Now then, these are some collected posts from Day 1. Fighting Okra's post is a little less interesting but, looking back Kaziocore and D3mon, regardless of who said what first, have had there eye on killing our two dead townies since day one. While for my own sake I would like to be able to use longevity of conviction as a defense if I would have been wrong about KevinH earlier, at this point if I'm wrong we loose anyway. My point here is that we have had constant suspicion from these two and they have been wrong twice, yet they led our lynching party. Even more to Nerau's point, D3mon even "agreed" with Kaziocore about it. Now they are bickering about who fault it is. Kaziocore, being more aggressive about it, seems more suspicious to me at this point. I still really don't have a read on D3mon, Kaziocore is particularly interested in shining the spotlight on him though. I think if Fighting Okra is scum he's just sort of being told where to go. He's certainly been out there and had votes in place to kill townies, but hasn't lead a charge really. Makes me think if he's mafia he's being pretty directed.

EDIT: Lesson learned, don't be so lazy not to use the quote button.

I agree that when someone twists someone else's posts in a malicious manner it indeed is a small possible indicator that someone might be scum, a.k.a the sort of scum tell you mentioned. It seems this is why you've FOS'd me. While I did not 100% accurately quote your post, I did to the best ability I had from memory and did attempt to direct people to the place where they could find the proper quotation of your post in the parenthetical of my previous post. I agree we should cast a FOS on those who twist peoples posts, but that honestly wasn't my intention. I'm just trying to clear the air, I was paraphrasing you and didn't mean to lie or mislead your own words in the slightest. I did my best to direct people where they could find the post verbatim if they so chose and I do not believe that my paraphrasing was so far off that it was malicious.

@KevinH: You're welcome to call that a scum tell if you believe that to be an indicator. Although I disagree that it is a scum tell and that therefore I am scum, you're welcome to pursue that as such as long as you are in this game. I'll try and explain my reasoning a bit more there, it might help clear up my reasoning for others or if I'm lucky even you. My earlier post in which I regarded KevinH's justification on me as "garbage" was because his reasoning was quite shallow. It went something like this, "I am a townie and you are voting for me, so I at least know you are scum." ( I should have quoted it, but I started a quick reply and am lazy right now. He quoted it himself in his previous post.) For the first part, "I am a townie" is a claim we are all making consistently. This is not evidence nor proof, it is simply a statement that everyone in this game is currently making. There is no way for anyone else to certify this, unless by way of some other confirmed power role that absolves you, therefore, in my eyes, it is shallow and should not stand as a proper premise to a vote. "You are voting for me", true. However, no more than a retaliatory vote demonstrates scuminess does a considered reasoned and defended vote over multiple days demonstrate scuminess. We don't hold people accountable simply for voting, there has to be something beyond the mere fact that they voted, i.e. who the voted for, why they voted etc. In my case neither of those options, nor do I believe any others, have been satisfied. Lastly, "you are scum". With the premises to your claim unsatisfying, I can not see how you maintain that this makes me scum.I certainly have had a vote on you for multiple days now, however I believe it to be a thoughtful, careful and reasonable vote. If I am wrong, I will admit that I have made a mistake, but we know that even townies vote for other townies from time to time. We had four votes on Angel yesterday and probably don't have four scum. I'd have to check, but we wouldn't be having a day three if we had four scum? If we don't have four scum at least one townie voted for Angel. MIstakes don't make us scum either. The full spectrum of my comment at that time was not that retaliatory votes should be considered scummy, but that the vote KevinH made on me fit with your pattern of shallow votes that were not backed up by a cop claim or other evidence. This wouldn't be as harmful to your case had it not been for your call wait for the cop or further proof on the first two days. @Kaziocore: I believe I did that near the bottom of page 11. If you're interested, check there.

I like the back and forth with Kaziocore and D3mon. Its the firmest I've seen either of them. I guess the jury's still out on that discussion though. D3mon might be right about the time line, but they both had the votes down no matter who did it first. Can you explain why the post you quoted leads you to believe this. I don't see how your claim follows from that post. However, I suspect there are probably townie power roles of some kind and we're not fighting barehanded. Is this conclusion based on the same assumption that we probably have a relatively strong power role somewhere and Tracker/Nerau/CD aren't it?

I'd really like to here from those who voted for Angel. We got word from a couple already. D3mon, posted today but didn't have any real substance. Looks like his vote was purely retaliatory. Fighting Okra maintained suspicion all day yesterday, but never founded a real solid basis. Seemed like Angel's inactivity tipped the scales. Kaziocore's vote seemed to be based on inactivity. KevinH voted because he thought someone should get lynched and Angel was the easy target at that point. If you're on this list and you want to take issue with the reasoning I found from my skimming please do. That's why I made this list.

I'm leaning towards targeting someone who voted for Angel. We have been waiting all game to lynch someone with "solid" evidence. Today is really our first chance to make that happen. However, I am also quite interested, of course, in watching what people do with that information. I think it will be just as telling to make a list of where people's votes land after we discuss this as it will to take a look at the voters. Seeing as that hasn't happened yet I think our best place to start is with those who voted for our second newest dead body. D3mon seems to me to be pretty quiet, with positive but brief contributions. Unfortunately, I don't have many thoughts on him either way. I don't think he's done anything else particularity scummy, but I'd like to see if I am forgetting something or cutting him too much slack. At this point, not my number one candidate. Kaziocore, though taking issue to my brief roleplaying stint which I would like to try again at some point, seems relatively harmless. My biggest worry here is that he is playing too nice and hasn't been all that aggressive. Granted, he placed a vote that lead to the death of a townie, but without multiple scum on this vote it doesn't seem like he tried to orchestrate anything. Right now it seems like Angel's death was rather unfortunate not only because he was a townie, but because none of the discussion surrounding his death, to my memory (and I'll search past posts to confirm this), was very enlightening about who might be scum. Fighting Okra seems, like Kaziocore, to be relatively harmless. Again, they both seem to me to have big doughy eyes that I want to believe are townie, but I'm not so sure. I feel like I'm being lulled into a false sense of safety or township by them. KevinH I remain suspicious of. With dwindling numbers I think it is unwise to punch a vote at this point, but he is topping my list. I'd rather not regurgitate what I've already said on the matter but, he seems to be playing without much adherence to his own rules for voting or any general consistency. I don't think his votes on myself or Angel were made with much subsistence and in Angel's case was a fatal mistake. I don't think its much of a coincidence that a player who claims that we need hard evidence for a vote and then doesn't follow that rule ends up placing the last vote on a dead townie. Those are my thoughts for now. I'm going to check in on voter rationale i.e. there posts containing or surrounding their votes, admittedly I didn't do much research prior to this post and much of it was gut feeling. I'll look into things more before making my next post.

Please, share. If you're going to only make reference to some possible insight you are doing much more harm than good. If you don't share now, the mafia might just as well night kill you, knowing that at worst they killed a townie and at best they prevented some sort of information, power role or not, from being disseminated to the town. While I don't necessarily agree with your decision to ought yourself, you might as well go all the way at this point. The vote standing on Nerau from Tracker is concerning. I think it is at least prudent to hear him out before a vote on possible suspicions. I agree that at this point these posts seem to be vague enough to stir up more paranoia than insight, but I do think it is wise to hear the full breadth of that vagary. Maybe the information Nerau has is vague in itself, hence his unclarity, but if it is helpful we can use it somehow and if we lynch him anyway, or if we decide it is a lie, certainly we can glean something from that lie. To restate my position, If Nerau does have something it is probably best to share it in as much detail as possible without a modkill. While I would not have advocated he done so in the first place, what is done is done and if he is night killed or lynched without us getting to the bottom of that information we might loose something very valuable. Especially since our cop is playing rather close to the chest. Probably not a bad decision. ______________ As for KevinH's vote on me, it think it just keeps with his current pattern of inconsistency. No cop has indicated any scummyness on my part. In fact, I don't think it has even been alleged. However, I find myself voted on without any merit from KevinH. His justification, for obvious reasons I think, is garbage. It is nothing more than a shallow retaliatory vote. It does little more than bolster my previous claims on his inability to follow his own directions concerning on what grounds we make a vote. Seeing as no one else has said much on the subject I'll leave it at that. My vote on him will stand for the time being.

An amendment, it would take six votes, not five to get a lynch. This makes a second vote a bit less weighty, though the subsequent points still stand.

While I am disappointed you find it difficult to bring your self to read three paragraphs (if you can call it that) in a game where the fundamental requirement is that you read posts, I will stick to my earlier disclaimer. While I do agree that my post was verbose (it is after all rp ) I certainly do not agree that only 10% of my post was important, in fact I find that a little offensive, but I'm not really upset, just sayin'. I do not plan to include a tl;dr, I believe that you absolutely should read my earlier posts and would suggest that you do if you haven't. I can however, attempt to sum up some main points, as to not belabor you into any extra reading. I did agree from the beginning of my rp endeavor in this forum, that if my rp posts were unwelcome I would find another way to convey my thoughts. I do think that there will be certain subtleties that I won't be able to include in a sum up, but at least I can get my straightforward thinking out. I appreciate the defense Tracker, and I agree with you, but I did convey that if it wasn't something that people enjoyed I would find some other way to post. Ironically, this post won't contain any rp. Important things ahead! _________________ That is certainly not consistent. You absolutely did not wait to hear from any townie power roles before casting your vote. Your entire justification was based on inactivity, criteria not good enough on day one. That criteria, if anything is ever more harmful to base a vote on day 2. If anything, according to this post, that would be exactly counter intuitive to your strategy of waiting for power roles as that justification requires no use of townie power roles at all. This is not consistency in the least. ^_________^________^ I agree with a post I forgot to quote from Nerau, it could be quite detrimental for the power role to come out and be obvious now. It is quite plausible that we could follow a cop for no longer than a day. I don't see much merit in a cop claiming at this point. Lead sure, but if I were the cop, I really don't think I would feel comfortable making that known, given the climate of this game. It is certainly not, in KevinH's words, ideal. As for D3mon and Angel...seriously? A guess and a retaliatory vote? Neither of these helps the town in the least. D3mon, you have been, as KevinH pointed out, pretty silent. I get why you might want to do that, you're new, blah blah blah, but coming out with a wild guess is not helping your case at all. Angel, that is our second vote on D3mon, if we have three mafia (I think that was the earlier working number?), they could all vote for him right now and take him out of the game. We need to be careful. We could very quickly have a dead townie if we put too much vote pressure down.

Overhearing a bit of conversation in the back of the coffee shop, BeeBs starred back into his empty cup. It was time to make some commitments. He mulled over his options and caught himself biting his lip a few times, nervous that a new guy in town looking too aggressive could be bad, really bad. However, it was time to make a stand. 'If someone wanted CanucksDynasty dead, it would be someone with less of a connection, Kaziocore might be on to something. Why make things so obvious when the first day of this mess was such a wash?' he thought from the comfort of his seat, still on the opposite side of the coffee shop from the commotion. BeeBs looked him over from the counter, what made this guy so scummy? He hadn't said a whole lot, B33Bs agreed with that, but he is just a quiet guy. A rookie, like him, hopefully with nothing to hide. Now B33Bs had already decided to keep CanucksDynsaty in mind and not vote without some good evidence, but B33Bs hadn't seen anyone else with a badge in this town since he pulled up a week or so ago. Where is our evidence going to come from without some guts? In a sick sort of way that should be a metaphorical conclusion, but B33Bs was getting antsy and if voting, action and evidence in this town meant blood, so be it. With a more confident stride and a new resolve B33Bs approached the patrons in the back of the shop. No one looked up, intent on what they were doing and not interested in the opinions of the new guy. With a deep breath he said as matter of factly as he could: Vote: KevinH As all the heads in the shop turned around to face him now, he lost a little bit of the wind that had carried him across the room. Trying not to look too intimidated, he held as many stares as he could. With a shrug, "Challange accepted?" he said with chuckle. It wasn't funny. Adjusting his stance he began to ramble nervously and quickly, "Alright, look, if you want evidence I don't have it. However, I think that's the real rub. We don't have anything more to go on than we did yesterday. We could stand around and guess, but when was that ever good enough? It sure wasn't on day one. It wasn't enough to preemptively search for a future killer, maybe to have saved a life. Voting without evidence wasn't good enough for CanucksDynasty, it wasn't good enough for KevinH and it wasn't good enough for many more of you. So I ask you, KevinH why vote now? Why consider inactivity a valid set of evidence now as our numbers dwindle? It wasn't good enough before, why is it now? Who was that good enough for on day one? Nobody. None of you would have risked your lives to make such an accusation and a dead body doesn't change that in the slightest. So, no I don't have finger prints or a murder weapon. What I do have is consistency and its been lost on KevinH. Getting the voting started? Bah! We can't throw away our own because of their lack of contribution, that's what we decided on day one. No one was inactive 'enough'. Well who are you to set that scale KevinH? I don't know much about D3mon, and I certainly hope I'm not throwing myself under the bus for him now, but I don't see why a vote on a fellow towns person based on activity is any more plausible now. Unless you want to cause paranoia, fear and chaos. I, for one, don't. I won't tolerate it. Consistency is all we've got, and you sir, haven't got it.

Tracker, I very much enjoy your RP posts, I think I'll give it a go. I've had some RP experience myself. Maybe it will catch on, or maybe it will just be fun for us. Either way, i think it will add something over and above game mechanics in this game of ours. I'll try and convey my opinions and thoughts clearly, if it seems like people aren't actually reading my posts because of the flavor elements, I'll try and be more clear in additional non rp posts or skip them all together, as I wouldn't want my fun to write me out of the game. His faced turned hot as he looked through the crowd of his fellow townspeople. It wasn't because of the dead body laying crushed and mangled under the few remaining wooden planks; he had seen death before, even deaths more gruesome than this one, nor was it because a friend had met his fate, for that had befallen his friends before. Instead, this sudden rush of blood to the head came in freight. Though the death was surely tragic, it didn't take more than a second for thoughts to turn in his mind. 'The killer is surely amongst us', he thought, covering his face and turning away BeeBs' mind began to reel. 'Could I be next' he shuddered to think, 'Will I be implicated" his mind dragged on full of questions. Though he knew that this was selfish considering the circumstances, this town was suspicious enough to warrant some selfishness. With a deep breath he tried to act casually. 'Alright', he thought as he tried to psyche himself up, 'the authorities can get to the bottom of this, we'll need to follow their lead. Certainly, we can trust them, though they might not break their cover so willingly if they suspect these deaths to continue...' He began force himself to think of other things, remembering to act natural. By this time he had made his way to the counter, obviously trying too hard to remain calm, he jumped a bit when the barista asked him for his order. Just as he was about to console himself in a cafe mocha, he heard it. His ears were left ringing from the sound of a deep yell resonating from the back of the coffee shop. His head snapped back with urgency to find its source, this anomaly in the otherwise quiet coffee house was enough to upset his already less than convincing facade. Though it was not a cry of pain that broke the quiet remorse in the coffee house that morning, it was surely one of heartfelt remorse and sorrow. Perhaps, someone he could trust, at least he hoped. 'Certainly someone feeling this much loss could be trusted. Right? Right.', he convinced himself. With a bit of confidence and the comfort that he might have found someone to console in within this new town, he began to approach Tracker. He noticed something though, his eyes seemed lost, almost drowning in his coffee. Either he had failed at overcoming his caffeine addiction or something else had struck him. It was not tears the lingered in his eyes, but a puzzled curiosity that made BeeBs think a little more about this other patron. He wondered if there was something more there, something beyond a mere wail for loss. Though not typically superstitious, maybe he was just shaken enough to fall victim to its comforts this morning, or maybe it was simply because he had missed his chance to order his mocha. Either way, he looked into Tracker's eyes, 'could there be something more to the pensive stare, something beyond the daydream he had clearly been lost in, something like... a vision of CanucksDynasty's death' he wondered. Finally regrouped enough to order and enjoy his mocha, he tried to dismiss his superstitious intuitions, but something he resolved to keep in the back of his mind. Tracker might know something, a valuable ally or a dangerous enemy. It was time to get down to business. What had CanucksDynasty been working on? Why would he be killed? What did he know? Why him? All these questions and more needed answers. Thankfully, he overheard others in the shop already searching for the same answers. Though he couldn't place the time CanucksDynsaty has actually said it, he remembered some whispers about a plan to dissolve hasty lynches of fellow townsmembers. Was he on to something? Maybe, just maybe, the mafia didn't want this to happen. He reasoned that not lynching ourselves would significantly hamper the reign of terror the mafia hoped to instantiate. Maybe that bit of altruism was exactly what the mafia wanted to squash. BeeBs finished his last drips of coffee hoping to find if others had come to the same conclusion. However, in the end, BeeBs was left with little. CanucksDynasty was a respected member of the town, or so he had heard. It might all just be about chaos. However, if CanucksDynasty's spirit should live on, it would seem to push us towards finding some good reason to lynch a fellow townsman and not let the hysteria get the better of us. If that is why CanucksDynsaty died, all the members of the town should be glad to meet such a fate, or so he hoped...

Well, are we waiting the day out or voting the no-lynch in. I'd rather just vote the no lynch route if that's the plan anyway. Mafia could just keep their mouths shut and stay safe pretty easy at this point. I'd vote for it now, but if there is more relevant info to be had I don't want to give the mafia and easy way of shutting the day down early.

1) It's a shame. Its okay though, I hadn't really done anything worthwhile. 2) I am a huge RP fan, but it doesn't seem the way this forum runs things. I'd totally be down for an all RP game or something, the mechanics of mafia can get pretty shallow to discuss sometimes. 3) I guess I can't be to sure either. I think a drastic shift could be compelling, but I would have to go on what you all have to say on it. If it is a 180 enough that it seems really strange, its better than nothing if we vote. Otherwise, its pretty thin. 4) Yourself, Nerau and Angel seem to be the most inactive. I think you've all spoken a bit. Angel, being the least active, could potentially be considered an inactive player. I'm pretty sure he is the most inactive anyway and has, if I'm not mistaken, a vote on CanucksDynasty. So, as far as I can tell he showed up and voted and we haven't heard from him since. Although, I could have missed a post somewhere.

Alright, well if no one else responds that CanuncksDynasty's change in attitude should rouse suspicion than I suppose I don't have much of a case. I can't push myself since all my knowledge of his playstyle is second hand and could very well be a mafia ploy. On the other hand, I am not much interested in a no lynch. I don't see how it puts us in any better position to make votes on the second day. At what point do we stop waiting around? What makes a vote on the second day any less random than on the first? It sounds like you guys are pretty keen on this lurking bit. I don't necessarily agree, but if that has been the past interpretation and it has turned up to be accurate, I suppose induction is a better proof than nothing on Day 1. I think I'll place a vote at the end of the day, even if it doesn't mean my candidate (or any) gets killed, at least it might help to vindicate me in the future. At worst I throw a vote on someone without to much reason and it doesn't actually cause their death. I would be much less willing to vote at this point if it actually meant they would be lynched. Can we just take a poll? Maybe everyone can make an unofficial vote if they are in favor or against a no lynch on day one in this game (not as a general principle) and explain why? If the town is organized and believes that to be the best way to move forward, maybe we can just get on to the next day with a no vote that is impending anyway since so many of us refuse to vote without more evidence. To answer my own question, in this game I suppose I would bend to the will of the town if they thought it was in the best interest and it would move the day along. I mean, if no one thinks they're actually going to vote for someone seriously anyway, then what is the use in dragging it out? I don't at all mean to be hasty, it just seems unnecessary. The other option, which I would be in favor of, is to lynch an inactive. Did Nerau get replaced? Is he inactive? Am I forgetting any other inactive players?

Greetings gentlemen, I have certainly not deleted my account. Unfortunately, CyberNations support is under the impression I had two accounts. Why this is the case I am uncertain, but I'll just need to start up again. It isn't too much hassle, my account was only a couple days old at the time. I just moved into a new apartment and haven't had time to set up my nation again. Oh, and thanks for withdrawing your votes on me after I signed in. Anyway, enough with the disclaimer, just didn't want you to count me out. I'm inclined to agree with Tracker. I suppose not posting is not the same as being inactive, but it sure doesn't do any of us much good if we can't hear your thoughts or reactions. From what I can gather the mafia are trying to maintain a no lynch strategy. It seems like they could all hog pile (in a sort of subtle hog pileish way...) on a candidate, which they most certainly aren't doing. I mean, it would seem like they have a plethora of defenses on day one to justify a bad lynch. They could simply say they just want to get a vote record or that they had nothing to go on and a vote was better than no vote. There are a few other flimsy excuses as well, but enough that there wouldn't be enough to immediately turn around on them. What I am thinking is that the mafia are trying to spread things around a bit, trying to keep the town from voting at all. They get a free kill at night, and no one can go on anything on the second day. I am weary about dropping a vote on someone in my first post, I think that would be a little hasty. However, if I were voting I suppose I would lean towards CanucksDynasty. While I don't personally know his playstyle, if some of you do and consider it suspicious that he has changed it dramatically that might warrant some suspicion. I mean it isn't proof, but it seems like something to go on. Drawing mafia isn't very frequent, and neither is dropping ones commitments to a strategy that seems pretty in favor of the town. I mean, its only a correlation and I have no personal experience with his play style, but it seems to me like the most relevant vote cast so far. Can anyone else verify this or comment on it. I guess I should also suspect those that had a vote on me as well. In addition, to be consistent, I would also consider those currently voting for a no lynch. From what I gather that is typical for KevinH, so it is hard to gauge suspicion based on that. A clever strategy for those times that he is mafia perhaps? Tracker as well, maybe you could demonstrate your activity with a vote or explain what kind of Day 1 evidence could ever justify you lynching on the first day. Kaziocore: Seeing as Tracker has made a good faith effort to justify his activity, would you consider switching to CanucksDynasty? Why or why not? With a little discussion and foundation I would be willing to put my vote there, but I'm not comfortable jumping in and placing on a second vote, the first legitimate second vote (as the two on me weren't) of the game.

/in as replacement