53 replies to this topic

[Shahenshah]

Crimea river! Brother comrade Putin standing up to western duplicity, hypocracy and calling the bluff!

[Robert2424]

Horrible Situation. From my point of view its the Ukrainain citizens are getting the worst of it. Russia want its former Soviet states back under control again. Just like the Georgian. Notice how they no longer have a country. Russia will continue to do this as long as they can get away with it. Ukraine has one of the most corrupt economy's in the world and they don't treat there citizens with respect. So really, what is the best outcome for this situation. The citizens don't want Russia to rule them, nor there own government. Unfortionitly the United States was asked to intervene (Witch is an awkward situation as you can imagine and even if the US dove into this situation, idk how we could Fix the problem). Frankly, I don't know what is needed to be done can be done. What needs to be done is this. Russia Leaves. (witch they don't want to). Ukraine gets a whole new government. (Witch isn't going to happen unless somebody forces them out). The situation isn't going to resolve itself over night. If the true Ukrainain citizens are to get what they want, that means no Russia and the government in place is no longer in place. < Witch I don't foresee happening. I've never been to Ukraine Before, But I know people who have been there before (last year and the year before, and they are scheduled to go again this year witch has me worried). Not greatest place to say the least.

[Owney]

Supposedly their objective was to protect ethnic Russians and the Russian speaking peoples of the Ukraine?

However, whatever the reason, I don't see how it's the USA's problem. We've got to stop playing world police and getting involved in other countries affairs unless it poses a direct threat to us or our allies.

Furthermore, Obama's brief announcement threatening Russia and saying "It will be costly" and such only added fuel to the fire. We've got to get over this ancient rivalry with Russia, this isn't this isn't the space race, nor the arms race, and have you heard? The cold war is OVER!...tensions between our two countries have been unnecessarily high for as long as I can remember. Time for our government and many of our citizens to get over it.

If anything, ally Russia. Putin's a fucking hardliner and Russia is bad ass.


 

[GoneVolsDeep]

In response to the "I don't see why this is the US's issue" statement.  We signed a treaty with Ukraine after the dissolvement of the USSR.  Ukraine disarms their (For a small nation) massive nuclear stockpile and we agree to protect them from invasion and occupancy.

[Robert2424]

Yeah, unfortionitly, they are an ally. Not our best ally, but an ally none the less.

[Commander Shepard]

In response to the "I don't see why this is the US's issue" statement.  We signed a treaty with Ukraine after the dissolvement of the USSR.  Ukraine disarms their (For a small nation) massive nuclear stockpile and we agree to protect them from invasion and occupancy.

 

Ukraine's government has being overthrown by radicals, the situation is a little more complicated than that.

 

And given it was the US who backed the ousting of the government, they clearly don't care about what is best for Ukraine and they were clearly never an ally

More what is best for them and a country taken over by radicals must have being deemed good. 

Technically the US has been already at war with Ukraine since the riots started and undermining of the country. 

[WilhelmSturm]

the goverment couldnt even from properly its still in progress, also radicals? dont believe the russian propaganda, the nationalist are staying out of the goverment, for now. however russias invasion only gives those nationalists more power since war gets people together, in a radical way because of an shared enemy, and this is exactly why russias behavior wont contribute anything constructive to the govermental situation, regarding crimea its not theirs, its ukrainian . what would they say if germans rised a german flag in kaliningrad and we would make an intervention? to "protect the german citizens" (kaliningrad used to be königsberg for the guys not knowing it) nor is alsac  loraine ours anymore. they signed a treaty and ensured that they hold it. however now they break it ontop of that they are invading without insignias on their uniforms (which is against the hague convention) the only time i would agree in handing over the russians crimea is if its the realy last thing to prevent a war, because landmass isnt worth the lifes of thousands,millions maybe billions. atm i think the right way is through diplomacy sanctions only as a tool of pressure(if the usa does sanctions idc, but if the eu does it could backfire so not for us) also it wouldnt contribute good either because it signalizes that you are not open for negotiations 


also: 

i wonder if she still exists

[Lorikz Kain]

the goverment couldnt even from properly its still in progress, also radicals? dont believe the russian propaganda, the nationalist are staying out of the goverment, for now. however russias invasion only gives those nationalists more power since war gets people together, in a radical way because of an shared enemy, and this is exactly why russias behavior wont contribute anything constructive to the govermental situation, regarding crimea its not theirs, its ukrainian . what would they say if germans rised a german flag in kaliningrad and we would make an intervention? to "protect the german citizens" (kaliningrad used to be königsberg for the guys not knowing it) nor is alsac  loraine ours anymore. they signed a treaty and ensured that they hold it. however now they break it ontop of that they are invading without insignias on their uniforms (which is against the hague convention) the only time i would agree in handing over the russians crimea is if its the realy last thing to prevent a war, because landmass isnt worth the lifes of thousands,millions maybe billions. atm i think the right way is through diplomacy sanctions only as a tool of pressure(if the usa does sanctions idc, but if the eu does it could backfire so not for us) also it wouldnt contribute good either because it signalizes that you are not open for negotiations 


also: 

i wonder if she still exists

 

Gotta love those rare moments when reporters talk truth rather than report what is "safe" props to her for having the courage to stand for something regardless of the likely ramifications for doing such.

[DeathMerchant]

I have a lot of material I can present, but it would take a few hours for me to gather/write it all down. So I'll summarize everything and keep it short.

 

Whole thing is a very touchy situation. Russia has people and assets it wants to protect in southern Ukraine/Crimea. The rest of Ukraine wants nothing to do with the former Soviet Union and would like to build a relationship with the EU. Russia has conducted a 'limited' police action but has not carried this out how one would expect. Its rather interesting how the Russians are handling this since they went in, and now aren't really doing anything. It seems Russia wants to extort Ukraine into signing trade agreements and to bring them closer to the Russian sphere of influence. But is trying to do all of this as low key as possible and avoid war.

 

As for the U.S. (and NATO), military action at this time would be very bad. As of yet, Russia has yet to actually hurt anyone or fire any shots. So a military move against Russia would likely have some international condemnation. However if war broke out between NATO (with supporting EU members) and Russia, Russia would get curbstomped. One only has to observe Russia's shortcomings and numerous failures in the 1st Chechen War, 2nd Chechen War, and the 2008 invasion of Georgia, to get a good picture of how things would play out. They lack training focused on terrain specific to environments they deploy in, majority of military hardware is aging and based off 70s-80s technology (even their newer BMDs and T-90s are just very expensive rehashes of old tech), and Russia can't allocate much money to buy advanced planes (I believe only 16 Tu-160 Strategic Bombers are in service with Russia's Air Force). U.S. Forces would also have some issues as well. Recent budget cuts would have some impact on combat readiness and strategic effectiveness. The EU also doesn't have tons of money to launch a large military operation on their own either. So where does this all lead us...

 

The west will likely attempt to impose sanctions on Russia and further degrade their struggling economy. The Ruble has been declining and Russia needs to do something if they want to stabilize their currency value. This is why I believe Putin wanted go into Ukraine quietly without much fanfare. He wants to improve Russia's economic position and influence by bullying neighbors into giving up territory, or accept Russian agreements. It happened with Chechnya, Georgia, and Putin wants to pull a repeat with Ukraine. He feels he can probably get away with it because:

 

A: No one wants war, nor can anyone really afford it with bad economies/cut backs.

B: Its worked before and Russia was never condemned for it.

 

Russia has something to gain from all this but doesn't have that much to lose. War likely won't happen and Russia knows if they keep at it long enough, they will only get slapped with a couple sanctions. Russia can also choose to enter the negotiating table and still find a way to come out on top. Putin is an excellent manipulator and the longer that the world sits back and debates what should be done, Russia keeps on gaining the upper hand.

 

Kinda ironic that Russia invaded Georgia during the 2008 Olympics, and right after the 2014 Olympics they 'occupy' Ukraine.

[Zipflash]

Both the United States and Russia are to blame.  These countries are positioning over power in the Ukraine and the biggest casualty of this whole conflict, as already has been mentioned, is the Ukrainian people. Both of these countries have been actively paying protestors for either side (United States1 and 2)(Russia), and the whole fiasco is a prime example of how foreign interventionalism doesn't work. 

 

The sad thing to me is that the Ukrainian people are basically fighting over whether they want to be ruled by the EU, where the cost of corruption in the EU this past year was the same size as the Ukraine's entire economy, or the Russians who are for the most part a corrupt dictatorship that has a long history of horribly treating the Ukrainian people and is reacting to NATO's attempts of isolation by attempting to regain control of Ukraine. 

 

I hope that one day the Ukrainian people will not feel the need to be ruled by outside governments, but instead realize they can be self-governing.  Outside countries would be wise to not interfere and let the country have their revolution the way they'd like it to be.  Russia and the US have no right to interfere.

[Owney]

Anyone see the video of Sarah Palin essentially calling this back in '08 after the Georgia invasion? Look it up. Took 6 years. but it was a pretty good prediction which she was ridiculed for at the time, which is of course interesting now that it came to light.


As to the agreement the US has/had with the Ukraine, isn't it very old? I want to say it was from the early/mid-90's but I can't remember off hand. Personally, as a US citizen, I don't think we should get too involved and continue to step on Russia's toes, and I don't particularly care about the Ukraine anyway. To my knowledge the Russian military hasn't harmed anyone anyway.


I find it so ironic we worry and intervene in so many places in the world when we have issues on the home front that need to be addressed. It makes me think of the old George Washington quote where he implied we'd be better off as an isolated country and weren't dragged into other people's problems.

[anthotcool]

Anyone see the video of Sarah Palin essentially calling this back in '08 after the Georgia invasion? Look it up. Took 6 years. but it was a pretty good prediction which she was ridiculed for at the time, which is of course interesting now that it came to light.


As to the agreement the US has/had with the Ukraine, isn't it very old? I want to say it was from the early/mid-90's but I can't remember off hand. Personally, as a US citizen, I don't think we should get too involved and continue to step on Russia's toes, and I don't particularly care about the Ukraine anyway. To my knowledge the Russian military hasn't harmed anyone anyway.


I find it so ironic we worry and intervene in so many places in the world when we have issues on the home front that need to be addressed. It makes me think of the old George Washington quote where he implied we'd be better off as an isolated country and weren't dragged into other people's problems.

If I read it right, soon after the USSR fell, the West and Russia agreed to let Ukraine be sovereign. I don't think we're allies in any way though. So far our only (on the surface)  possible involvements would be as directed by the UN, or by NATO (since Poland has asked for possible intervention).

 

I agree with Owney though, I'd rather just sit back and watch. For quite awhile Russia and China have been marginalized in the UN Security Council and its only a matter of time before they just up and leave and do their own thing.  China has been straddling the fence so far on this situation , but their Parliament is convening very soon to set the upcoming agenda, so it'll be interesting if anything comes out of there FA-wise, between the lines if not implicitly.

[Athermonuke]

Supposedly their objective was to protect ethnic Russians and the Russian speaking peoples of the Ukraine?

However, whatever the reason, I don't see how it's the USA's problem. We've got to stop playing world police and getting involved in other countries affairs unless it poses a direct threat to us or our allies.

Furthermore, Obama's brief announcement threatening Russia and saying "It will be costly" and such only added fuel to the fire. We've got to get over this ancient rivalry with Russia, this isn't this isn't the space race, nor the arms race, and have you heard? The cold war is OVER!...tensions between our two countries have been unnecessarily high for as long as I can remember. Time for our government and many of our citizens to get over it.

If anything, ally Russia. Putin's a fucking hardliner and Russia is bad ass.


 

 

It would be best to see how things develope.  

 

If Russia invades the Ukraine further it could cause a serious energy problem for the EU (due to the pipelines in the Ukraine leading into Europe.  The energy problems in Europe will cause a greater demand world wide and that will lead to countries that are already in an economic bind (Greece and Spain for example) to possibly collapse.  That could very easily lead to a domino effect, of which more economically stable nations like Germany and France would suffer a depression and/or collapse themselves (due to them taking on the national debt of the economically unstable countries).  Go further and it is possible that stronger and stronger economies could fail as well (due to all of the western economies being so closely tied to each other).

 

At best there would be economic strain world wide, at worst some countries could fall economically.  Similar situation if NATO and/or the US get involved militarily.  The only ideal situation would be for Russia to withdraw from Crimea and some sort of coalition conducts peacekeeping efforts and helps get Ukraine back on it's feet.

Edited by Athermonuke, 05 March 2014 - 08:15 AM.

[Shahenshah]

the goverment couldnt even from properly its still in progress, also radicals? dont believe the russian propaganda, the nationalist are staying out of the goverment, for now. however russias invasion only gives those nationalists more power since war gets people together, in a radical way because of an shared enemy, and this is exactly why russias behavior wont contribute anything constructive to the govermental situation, regarding crimea its not theirs, its ukrainian . what would they say if germans rised a german flag in kaliningrad and we would make an intervention? to "protect the german citizens" (kaliningrad used to be königsberg for the guys not knowing it) nor is alsac  loraine ours anymore. they signed a treaty and ensured that they hold it. however now they break it ontop of that they are invading without insignias on their uniforms (which is against the hague convention) the only time i would agree in handing over the russians crimea is if its the realy last thing to prevent a war, because landmass isnt worth the lifes of thousands,millions maybe billions. atm i think the right way is through diplomacy sanctions only as a tool of pressure(if the usa does sanctions idc, but if the eu does it could backfire so not for us) also it wouldnt contribute good either because it signalizes that you are not open for negotiations 
also: 
i wonder if she still exists

 
Gotta love those rare moments when reporters talk truth rather than report what is "safe" props to her for having the courage to stand for something regardless of the likely ramifications for doing such.

More truth from same source:http://youtu.be/Xh_YkdGbWqk

Google paet Ashton leak

[Shahenshah]

I have a lot of material I can present, but it would take a few hours for me to gather/write it all down. So I'll summarize everything and keep it short.

Whole thing is a very touchy situation. Russia has people and assets it wants to protect in southern Ukraine/Crimea. The rest of Ukraine wants nothing to do with the former Soviet Union and would like to build a relationship with the EU. Russia has conducted a 'limited' police action but has not carried this out how one would expect. Its rather interesting how the Russians are handling this since they went in, and now aren't really doing anything. It seems Russia wants to extort Ukraine into signing trade agreements and to bring them closer to the Russian sphere of influence. But is trying to do all of this as low key as possible and avoid war.

As for the U.S. (and NATO), military action at this time would be very bad. As of yet, Russia has yet to actually hurt anyone or fire any shots. So a military move against Russia would likely have some international condemnation. However if war broke out between NATO (with supporting EU members) and Russia, Russia would get curbstomped. One only has to observe Russia's shortcomings and numerous failures in the 1st Chechen War, 2nd Chechen War, and the 2008 invasion of Georgia, to get a good picture of how things would play out. They lack training focused on terrain specific to environments they deploy in, majority of military hardware is aging and based off 70s-80s technology (even their newer BMDs and T-90s are just very expensive rehashes of old tech), and Russia can't allocate much money to buy advanced planes (I believe only 16 Tu-160 Strategic Bombers are in service with Russia's Air Force). U.S. Forces would also have some issues as well. Recent budget cuts would have some impact on combat readiness and strategic effectiveness. The EU also doesn't have tons of money to launch a large military operation on their own either. So where does this all lead us...

The west will likely attempt to impose sanctions on Russia and further degrade their struggling economy. The Ruble has been declining and Russia needs to do something if they want to stabilize their currency value. This is why I believe Putin wanted go into Ukraine quietly without much fanfare. He wants to improve Russia's economic position and influence by bullying neighbors into giving up territory, or accept Russian agreements. It happened with Chechnya, Georgia, and Putin wants to pull a repeat with Ukraine. He feels he can probably get away with it because:

A: No one wants war, nor can anyone really afford it with bad economies/cut backs.
B: Its worked before and Russia was never condemned for it.

Russia has something to gain from all this but doesn't have that much to lose. War likely won't happen and Russia knows if they keep at it long enough, they will only get slapped with a couple sanctions. Russia can also choose to enter the negotiating table and still find a way to come out on top. Putin is an excellent manipulator and the longer that the world sits back and debates what should be done, Russia keeps on gaining the upper hand.

Kinda ironic that Russia invaded Georgia during the 2008 Olympics, and right after the 2014 Olympics they 'occupy' Ukraine.

According to EU report, it was Georgia that started the war, firing first shot and invading an autonomous region.http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/65469/charles-king/clarity-in-the-caucasus

Its pretty hypocritical that some countries that have flouted international law repeatedly complaining about it. Russia isn't Iraq or any third world country, else you'd be seeing the freedom coalition on the roll by now.

You practically have Estonian FM telling EU rep Ashton that it was one of the maidan leader who hired the snipers that shot on both sides. No wonder Russia is pissed, hell they even agreed to give up pretty much all in political process and agreement agreed by all sides, by agreeing to opposition demands earlier, but no, west wanted all of the cake.

They've been knocking down pro Russian regimes one way or another, even going to extreme by arming extremists in middle east and propping up civil wars and chaos. Russia put its foot down this time. Sanctions practically will mean giving up Crimea and eastern Ukraine, which is visibly pro Russia.

I think the solution lies in a Ukrainian govt that represents all of Ukrainians, not just the western half and neo Nazis, ( really, that's not a talking point, google some of these guys)

Edited by Shahenshah, 05 March 2014 - 04:19 PM.

[DeathMerchant]

 

According to EU report, it was Georgia that started the war, firing first shot and invading an autonomous region.http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/65469/charles-king/clarity-in-the-caucasus

Its pretty hypocritical that some countries that have flouted international law repeatedly complaining about it. Russia isn't Iraq or any third world country, else you'd be seeing the freedom coalition on the roll by now.

You practically have Estonian FM telling EU rep Ashton that it was one of the maidan leader who hired the snipers that shot on both sides. No wonder Russia is pissed, hell they even agreed to give up pretty much all in political process and agreement agreed by all sides, by agreeing to opposition demands earlier, but no, west wanted all of the cake.

They've been knocking down pro Russian regimes one way or another, even going to extreme by arming extremists in middle east and propping up civil wars and chaos. Russia put its foot down this time. Sanctions practically will mean giving up Crimea and eastern Ukraine, which is visibly pro Russia.

I think the solution lies in a Ukrainian govt that represents all of Ukrainians, not just the western half and neo Nazis, ( really, that's not a talking point, google some of these guys)

 

You are correct in that Georgia started the war. However Russia may have gone slightly overboard with how the situation was handled. I could be wrong, but as far as I know, Russia didn't try much diplomacy before invading.

 

To regards about the sniper's alleged identity is news to me. I'm quite interested in seeing what else will be revealed, and how it will effect the current situation.

 

I think we can all agree that Ukraine should be allowed to sort this out on their own. Intervening foreign powers will only going complicate the situation. Their newly elected government will need time to organize and negotiate with both sides of the table. Unless the country becomes very unstable and is on the verge of civil war, then both the West and Russia should respect that Ukraine is a sovereign state, and to not do anything drastic.

[onbekende]

As with any civil uprising, it gets hijacked by people putting personal beliefs before society

[Rhizoctonia]

[anthotcool]

 

 

According to EU report, it was Georgia that started the war, firing first shot and invading an autonomous region.http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/65469/charles-king/clarity-in-the-caucasus

Its pretty hypocritical that some countries that have flouted international law repeatedly complaining about it. Russia isn't Iraq or any third world country, else you'd be seeing the freedom coalition on the roll by now.

You practically have Estonian FM telling EU rep Ashton that it was one of the maidan leader who hired the snipers that shot on both sides. No wonder Russia is pissed, hell they even agreed to give up pretty much all in political process and agreement agreed by all sides, by agreeing to opposition demands earlier, but no, west wanted all of the cake.

They've been knocking down pro Russian regimes one way or another, even going to extreme by arming extremists in middle east and propping up civil wars and chaos. Russia put its foot down this time. Sanctions practically will mean giving up Crimea and eastern Ukraine, which is visibly pro Russia.

I think the solution lies in a Ukrainian govt that represents all of Ukrainians, not just the western half and neo Nazis, ( really, that's not a talking point, google some of these guys)

 

You are correct in that Georgia started the war. However Russia may have gone slightly overboard with how the situation was handled. I could be wrong, but as far as I know, Russia didn't try much diplomacy before invading.

 

To regards about the sniper's alleged identity is news to me. I'm quite interested in seeing what else will be revealed, and how it will effect the current situation.

 

I think we can all agree that Ukraine should be allowed to sort this out on their own. Intervening foreign powers will only going complicate the situation. Their newly elected government will need time to organize and negotiate with both sides of the table. Unless the country becomes very unstable and is on the verge of civil war, then both the West and Russia should respect that Ukraine is a sovereign state, and to not do anything drastic.

 

The problem is also that Russia sees the new gov't as illegitimate. I can't imagine though that Russia thinks putting Yanukovych back in power would be a reality. Factor in that Crimea voted in a new gov't that's supported by Russia, and it gets dicier

[James Richards]

Crimea has voted to join Russia though. Even though the US wont ever recognize it i think its up to the Crimean people to choose who should rule them