53 replies to this topic

[ccabal86]

I'm already discussing this issue on the NG boards and I have no energy to do it here as well

I'd just like to point out the fact that the relevant UNSC vote was only "blocked" by Russia (even China abstained) is very telling for a number of resons.

[Bull of Doom22]

I think I found the solution:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territory

[ccabal86]

Not really, since the Crimean people's problem is not with the system of government which they have, but rather that they do not belong to the state they wish to.

[Lysistrata]

I think it's all happening all over again. Soon the stories will come out about people getting shot trying to leave... or poisoned.

The UN are nothing but a bunch of self-serving leeches living off the American tax-payers... protecting their own interests.

Putin will do whatever he wants and he'll bite off more than he can chew because Russia plays the big kahuna but doesn't have the economy to support the empire he wants back. The US has no taste for war right now, and no faith in the current President to wage it.

 

This is only the beginning.

[Theophilos]

I'm already discussing this issue on the NG boards and I have no energy to do it here as well

I'd just like to point out the fact that the relevant UNSC vote was only "blocked" by Russia (even China abstained) is very telling for a number of resons.

 

Well you can hardly expect China to support any sort of interference in the sovereign territory of a nation state

 

I think it's all happening all over again. Soon the stories will come out about people getting shot trying to leave... or poisoned.

The UN are nothing but a bunch of self-serving leeches living off the American tax-payers... protecting their own interests.

Putin will do whatever he wants and he'll bite off more than he can chew because Russia plays the big kahuna but doesn't have the economy to support the empire he wants back. The US has no taste for war right now, and no faith in the current President to wage it.

 

This is only the beginning.

 

Well now, shall we look at the US foreign policy ... Military Coup in Iraq was deemed to be acceptable, unconstitutional change of power in Ukraine was deemed acceptable, etc etc

 

That remark about the UN is unfounded and untrue. In reality US still owes about 2 billion $ for UN programs and the like it took a commitment to fund - same as every other member state. True US agreed to contribute some 22% to the UN budget, but Japan and Germany contribute almost the same amount, with actually making regular payments (unlike US) ... so no, there are no self-serving leeches living off American tax-payers.

 

To be clear the US hasn't the finances to support its own "empire" either, I'll exaggerate (to a point) and say that US is actually leaching on other countries that are buying its debt (i.e. highest non-resident debt in the world).

 

The fact is that the amount of hypocrisy displayed by all sides involved is utterly shameful.

[ccabal86]

Well you can hardly expect China to support any sort of interference in the sovereign territory of a nation state

Think Tibet

[Theophilos]

 

Well you can hardly expect China to support any sort of interference in the sovereign territory of a nation state

Think Tibet

 

 

I was, amongst other things

 

But you will recall that China claims Tibet as own territory and their actions merely as helping the return of a lost province to the fold of the motherland (i.e. like Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan).

[ccabal86]

That remark about the UN is unfounded and untrue. In reality US still owes about 2 billion $ for UN programs and the like it took a commitment to fund - same as every other member state. True US agreed to contribute some 22% to the UN budget, but Japan and Germany contribute almost the same amount, with actually making regular payments (unlike US) ... so no, there are no self-serving leeches living off American tax-payers.

Very true. I just wish people would take the time to research things instead of just believing propaganda. World would truly be a better place.

PS: I just brought up Tibet, because it's the province that would probably like to secede the most, but yes, there are many territories that wouldn't mind being "further" away from China.

[Lysistrata]

If you think so then take the UN and move it to Tokyo or Berlin and get the hell off our real estate. The UN is nothing but self-serving bloodsuckers that want to drain the wealth from the US to enrich themselves. I'm Republican remember? I don't believe in debt or aid to anyone, for any reason, without clear benefit, and only to those that deserve it. Stupid and weak leaders have driven the value of American power into the dirt by giving away protection so cheaply.

 

I wonder what the price would be for guaranteed independence of the free world?

 

Back to the issue of the Ukraine... The UN will not do jack-squat to Putin... they are self-serving leeches.

[Theophilos]

If you think so then take the UN and move it to Tokyo or Berlin and get the hell off our real estate. The UN is nothing but self-serving bloodsuckers that want to drain the wealth from the US to enrich themselves. I'm Republican remember? I don't believe in debt or aid to anyone, for any reason, without clear benefit, and only to those that deserve it. Stupid and weak leaders have driven the value of American power into the dirt by giving away protection so cheaply.

 

I wonder what the price would be for guaranteed independence of the free world?

 

Back to the issue of the Ukraine... The UN will not do jack-squat to Putin... they are self-serving leeches.

 

It is not a matter of what I think (or not for that matter), but what facts tell us. The facts tell us taht the only leaching done in the UN is done by the US (quite disproportionaly to any other bloodsuckers there may be). Even worse, the US does so even while small, poor, developing, more or less undeveloped, etc countries meanwhile contribute per what they agree to contribute.

 

In addition US is one of the top users of instruments available via the UN, be it for sanctions, vetos, etc etc

 

Yes, and I'm an ultra conservative (i.e. includes what may be refered to as fiscal conservative as well) ... either way nor you nor I are excused from ignorance by simply saying that I would also remind you that it was a democrat that enabled a sufficit to the US in the last 25 years or so and not a republican.

 

The US does not in fact guarantee independence of the free world, it does however guarantee its own interests which it absolutely should. Thus in terms of self-servedness ... every state in the world is self-serving

[Rhizoctonia]

UN has always seemed to me like putting your car in neutral and stepping on the gas, sure you can make a lot of noise, but you don't get anywhere.  And I would agree that the US probably uses the UN more then most....especially when it comes to sanctions and investigations.  Look at all the times we have had UN investigators go into countries looking for WMD's, and all the sanctions we put on other countries.  Now I am probably ignorant to what sanctions other countries put on others via the UN mainly because I live in the US so I only really hear about US sanctions on the news...but still it seems we use it a lot.  

[Bull of Doom22]

Well your first problem is that you believe in the state

[ccabal86]

Well your first problem is that you believe in the state

 

I knew we were going to have this discussion one day

 

Counter: What's the alternative?

[Bull of Doom22]

Counter to your counter: Voluntaryism and a Stateless society. Anarcho-Capatalism

[ccabal86]

Define what you mean by anarcho-capitalism, and we can start

 

Is your understanding the same as the Wikipedia article's?

[Blade 619]

Would have been interesting to see if they'd have chosen to be their own country. Probably turn into a Russian puppet, but might have made more sense in the long run to simply say they wanted to be masters of their own future.

[Blaskowicz]

Ah, the United Nations is not useless. It's stopped a few wars during it's history, promoted universal human rights, and has been more successful at that than any other international organization before. That doesn't mean it's perfect and we all need to be happy about it, but I'd rather have it than not have it.

 

Also, as a supranational organization, it's rather powerless. The only binding resolutions of the United Nations are those made by the Security Council, which means they can be blocked by any of the big five (US, UK, France, Russia, PRC) from ever getting approved. Any other resolution (By the General Assembly, for example) is optional, and merely involving the countries that adhere to it. So what's happening in Crimea will most likely be solved outside of the UN.

 

Also, what's stopping an anarcho-capitalist society to quickly become a plutocracy?

[Theophilos]

Ah, the United Nations is not useless. It's stopped a few wars during it's history, promoted universal human rights, and has been more successful at that than any other international organization before. That doesn't mean it's perfect and we all need to be happy about it, but I'd rather have it than not have it.

 

Also, as a supranational organization, it's rather powerless. The only binding resolutions of the United Nations are those made by the Security Council, which means they can be blocked by any of the big five (US, UK, France, Russia, PRC) from ever getting approved. Any other resolution (By the General Assembly, for example) is optional, and merely involving the countries that adhere to it. So what's happening in Crimea will most likely be solved outside of the UN.

 

Also, what's stopping an anarcho-capitalist society to quickly become a plutocracy?

 

Well it isn't really a supranational organization, but rather one of its institutional bodies has supranational aspects with a caveat of plausible enforceability.

 

A very good point on the issue of plutocracy too.

[ccabal86]

 
Also, what's stopping an anarcho-capitalist society to quickly become a plutocracy?

That is why I'd love to debate the question, bui it seems no one will take me up on it.

[Bull of Doom22]

 

 

Also, what's stopping an anarcho-capitalist society to quickly become a plutocracy?

Nothing. If the people will submit to the wealthy, then the wealthy could run the show. Simple as that.

 

Define what you mean by anarcho-capitalism, and we can start

 

Is your understanding the same as the Wikipedia article's?

Basically the same idea. I doubt that courts or police would be privately operated, as I doubt they will exist at all. Maybe more like professional body guards for escort? I wouldn't see a profit in someone providing essentially a private army to keep the peace.  But if that's what they want to do, that's up to them. Basically a "do whatever you want" society, driven by the desire to make money through business.