I think the difference is we control our religion... our religion does not control us. I'm Agnostic, so I don't even rate on the meter. After 9/11, George W. Bush had a mandate from the American people to go to war against Islamic threat. He had a 90% approval rating going into Afghanistan, and a 70% approval rating going into Iraq. When political winds started to wane, suddenly those that supported it all along started to change their position with talk of "exit strategy". If it were me... my answer would have been "we do have an exit strategy... east on both fronts". Pakistan was hiding Bin Laden. For that I would have crushed Pakistan... instead we still give them billions of dollars for "helping us against terrorism". Bush came closest to dealing with the problem, but fell victim to time, opposition, and lack of will to finish what we started. He was too nice and wanted to build a friendly nation instead of finishing the job. Every other President is content with biding their time and managing the problem. It will happen again, and it will start all over again, because Islam will not allow us to be us on this small planet.

 

You are correct Blade, my apologies, I should not have said it that way.

There are two kinds of Muslims, those that hate me, and those that want to kill me. I should not include everyone.

 

 

You see, leaving the middle east is not a solution. You are folly to believe that western involvement in the Middle East is the cause of the jihadist movements. Bin Laden and the likes do not/did not engage in terrorism to achieve specific and well defined goals, like driving peacekeepsrs out of a specific country. No. They're fighting against ideologies defferent than their own, a fight that they would only see over with the full extermination of the other groups. They hate everyone that is defferent than them, and they will not stop with the killings.

 

Why else would the Islamic State execute fellow muslims of a slightly different religious practice by the thousands? It's not because of western involvement.

OK OK. First off, AQ and IS have the same goals with 2 major differences:

1. Their belief in who is the rightful Caliph.

2. IS believes "purifying" Islamic society should be the first priority. This is why they kill Muslims.

 

In the end, the Salafi/Wahhabi movement is entirely about western interventionism. The entire idea is to recreate the Caliphate which the west conquered, divided and then exploited for decades. It wouldn't exist if we didn't dismantle the Ottoman Empire to fuel our industrialization.

 

 

Minute difference. The end-goal for both organizations is to end everyone else who thinks differently. Leaving the Middle East wouldn't solve a damn thing, when the minimum the IS wants is this:

 

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--wo3TlGAY--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/792638422386215497.jpg

 

I agree with you on why Islam has is the most problems out of all the AWFUL Abrahamic religions (personal aspect: I belive Atheists are considered to be lowlier than murderers, rapists, or even animals by even moderate Islam - so that is where we start by default), except for the caliphate part. There never was a caliphate throughout history (maybe except for the very first centuries of the religion) that was even acknowledged by the majority of Muslims. By the time the Ottoman Empire was dissolved, the situation was already FUBAR.

 

IS aint getting shit. For that to happen, they'd have to kill and maim 1.2 bn (1.3bn?) muslims. They've killed more Muslims than anyone else so far.  As for your opinions regarding Atheists, you'll find all sorts of opinions on the internet, you can pick the most controversial ones like IS or the less ones, like the rest. If you want to discuss it, i'd be happy to do it over the PM, because here it will likely result in a discourse with no end and 200 other new tangents, if you want meaningful chat and discourse, feel free.

 

 

 

After seeing what the Prophet Mohammad 's  followers do to people , I have come to the conclusion that he is not the kind of god that I want . I will stick to the GOD that I have.

 

It used to be that those that died for freedom, died on the battlefield. It seems the battlefield has been brought to them. These French victims are no different. God rest their souls. Let us honor them in the name of freedom. 

 

3T

Let's not demonize Islam in comparison to other religions. Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody and ridiculous. The only difference is the times and cultural evolution. Christians can't go around burning witches, stoning homosexuals and launching crusades anymore because religion is dying in the west and things are becoming more liberal.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Salafi/Wahhabi movement is a pretty new thing that popped up in opposition to this global liberalization.  Even most Salafists are opposed to this type of crap. Islam should not be defined by the actions of a few dick heads. That's like defining Christianity based on the actions of the KKK or Westburo Baptist Church or one of the other countless Christian sects that are insane.

 

 

I don't follow your point thatf Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody as modern Islamist extremism.  Did Christianity and Judaism retain its membership by threatening to execute anyone who left their religion? Remember, this is according to the example set by Muhammad.  Does Christianity and Judaism teach that those who were not Jewish or Christian are less than fully human? Muhammad said that Muslims can be put to death for murder, but that a Muslim could never be put to death for killing a non-Muslim. 

 

I am not speaking about all Muslims, but this extremist ideology of hatred towards other religions and killing those that do not believe in "Allah". These extremists continue their Jihad against other religions for hundreds of years, checked by the ability of non-Muslims to defend themselves. To this day, not a week goes by that Islamic fundamentalists do not attempt to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists explicity in the name of Allah. 

 

3T

 

You should read the bible. Both the Torah and Bible specifically state that non-believers should all be killed on numerous occasions. Hell, the bible even tells you to kill your kids if they curse at you, stone your daughter if shes not a virgin on her wedding day, and even exterminate entire towns if even one person among them is a non-believer.

The difference is that while the world has become more liberal, the Muslim culture has stayed relatively the same, because unlike Christianity, Islam cannot be edited or changed. The Quran and Sharia remain the way they were written, unlike the bible.

The west inevitably created this problem when we dissolved the Ottoman Empire. We should have never done that.

This extremist ideology is entirely based on that particular event in history.

 

 

You are only proving my point more as to why Islam is not a religion of peace - simply because of how it is interpreted in modern times. All religions at some point have done some heinous activities to impose religious beliefs on people, but they have changed for the embetterment of society and so that it could apply to modern day life. Hell, homosexuals were considered sinners of God, but in modern times, for all we know, God loves all people. The fact that Christianity did change its extremist period, makes it more peaceful than it ever has been. I cannot say the same for Islam.

 

For Islam to not change its calling to kill non-believers is exactly why we are having these issues today.   If you actually read the Quaran, Muhammad was very specific on his views of society and disbelievers, and it leaves no room for change. So again, your point is not well taken when you say that Christianity and Judaism is just as bloody today. You are beginning to sound  anti-semitic, and pro-agnostic in your views on religion as a whole. Not surprising based on your comments.  You also blame the West for inciting this violence, but you have no factual evidence in proving that. You blame the West at a time the Ottoman Empire was already in decline. They made many more internal mistakes than there was external interviention by the Europeans. They attempted to make reforms to centrally control all people within the Empire. Because they did not want people to practice religious freedom, the old practices were no longer effective in a modern world. So don't blame the West for problems the Ottomans created themselves.

 

Muhammad directed Muslims to wage war on other religions and bring them under submission to Islam. After he died, his Arabian comparisons waged wars and invaded and conquered Christians, Jews, Hindus, and many other relgions (aka disbelievers in his view). This is called "radicalism" - the same thing that is going on today. Read your history on why thousands of Muslim armies had captured acres of land and people within the borders of several modern countries outside of Saudi Arabia. Muslims are told to emulate Muhammad - who just so happened to kill those who insulted him and his religion, which included women. Nothing different from today.

 

3T

I can't answer that question. Do you hate us? or do you want to kill us?

Probably in the same category as the two muslims that live around me.

Do they ever talk to me?... No

Do they look at me like I'm a piece of shit in my own country?... Yes

 

My wife got to know one of the girlfriends. He wanted this girlfriend to convert and she was just in it for the money. Having drinks was a crime and no way was it to be known that she was drinking with my wife. None the less, she is no longer the girlfriend and she moved on to a much happier relationship. But Mr. Muslim is still there, and we are infidels. End of story, but I do have a loaded Beretta should he ever want to visit us with a big knife.

 

So you're basing your opinion on the experience you've had with 2 Muslims and whatever the media reports to you? I don't care about religious groups at all but it infuriates me to see someone think this way. Your way of thinking is illogical and it's quite sad to see that people actually think the way you do. There's 1.6 BILLION Muslims of the world, some of them engage in horrible acts in the name of their religion which is disgusting - but I still cannot understand how you're assuming that all of them think the same way. 

You're contradicting everything democracy stands for which is: liberty, equality and justice for everyone. We've had and still have people losing their lives defending that.

 

Treating another group of people different because of the actions of a minority goes against all of that.

IS aint getting shit. For that to happen, they'd have to kill and maim 1.2 bn (1.3bn?) muslims. They've killed more Muslims than anyone else so far.  As for your opinions regarding Atheists, you'll find all sorts of opinions on the internet, you can pick the most controversial ones like IS or the less ones, like the rest. If you want to discuss it, i'd be happy to do it over the PM, because here it will likely result in a discourse with no end and 200 other new tangents, if you want meaningful chat and discourse, feel free.

Didn't say it was a realistic goal, but a goal nonetheless. Either way terrorists are hostis humani generis and we should return to the good old days when those sort of people were beyond any legal protection.

 

As far as Islam and Atheism goes, there really is little to discuss. This article is quite telling: http://www.economist.com/news/international/21567059-ex-muslim-atheists-are-becoming-more-outspoken-tolerance-still-rare-no-god-not

 

Highlight from the article:

Ibn Warraq says that the nub of the problem is that sharia makes atheism the number one sin, ahead of murder.

What else is there to discuss?

I think the difference is we control our religion... our religion does not control us. I'm Agnostic, so I don't even rate on the meter. After 9/11, George W. Bush had a mandate from the American people to go to war against Islamic threat. He had a 90% approval rating going into Afghanistan, and a 70% approval rating going into Iraq. When political winds started to wane, suddenly those that supported it all along started to change their position with talk of "exit strategy". If it were me... my answer would have been "we do have an exit strategy... east on both fronts". Pakistan was hiding Bin Laden. For that I would have crushed Pakistan... instead we still give them billions of dollars for "helping us against terrorism". Bush came closest to dealing with the problem, but fell victim to time, opposition, and lack of will to finish what we started. He was too nice and wanted to build a friendly nation instead of finishing the job. Every other President is content with biding their time and managing the problem. It will happen again, and it will start all over again, because Islam will not allow us to be us on this small planet.

 

You are correct Blade, my apologies, I should not have said it that way.

There are two kinds of Muslims, those that hate me, and those that want to kill me. I should not include everyone.

 

Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11, Bush waged war on pretext of WMDs, not 9/11 or what you say to be 'Islamic threat', it turned out to be lie, you destroyed a country and killed thousands. Iraq wasnt a islamic threat, it was ruled by a secular dictator, who you armed once upon a time, there was little or no religious extremism, it all popped up after you went in. But the fact you believe US pursued Iraq for 9/11/Islamic threat and not WMDs just tells how far disconnected you are from the reality. 

 

Also nice work with the xenophobia. 

Edited January 7, 201511 yr by Shahenshah

 

IS aint getting shit. For that to happen, they'd have to kill and maim 1.2 bn (1.3bn?) muslims. They've killed more Muslims than anyone else so far.  As for your opinions regarding Atheists, you'll find all sorts of opinions on the internet, you can pick the most controversial ones like IS or the less ones, like the rest. If you want to discuss it, i'd be happy to do it over the PM, because here it will likely result in a discourse with no end and 200 other new tangents, if you want meaningful chat and discourse, feel free.

Didn't say it was a realistic goal, but a goal nonetheless. Either way terrorists are hostis humani generis and we should return to the good old days when those sort of people were beyond any legal protection

 

Could'nt agree more. 

 

After seeing what the Prophet Mohammad 's  followers do to people , I have come to the conclusion that he is not the kind of god that I want . I will stick to the GOD that I have.

 

It used to be that those that died for freedom, died on the battlefield. It seems the battlefield has been brought to them. These French victims are no different. God rest their souls. Let us honor them in the name of freedom. 

 

3T

 

Prophet wasnt a god nor claimed to be one, you need a lesson in history boy.

 

Since you are all here generalising.

 

Bush waged war on Iraq on false premise, then claimed it was a crusade and then said he was guided by God..entire country ruined, thousands upon thousands, that destruction has no equivalent to any violent act in modern history. There you go, religious war, let's talk about Ideologies, you waged war on Vietnam on ideological basis, again it based on a fabricated CB, entire country burned, maimed, thousands if not millions dead. You have audacity to preach freedom to rest of the world? Want to talk about countless ruthless dictators you installed in middle east and South America? How many killed? Do you want to know? Why don't you Google and share the links with us. A nation living under apartheid is sanctioned because it applies to International Criminal court, what justice do you speak of? Each and every netizen spied upon, where is the so called personal liberty you impose through B-52s?  Ousting a democratically elected Iranian government so you can leech cheap oil, where is the democracy you preach from ivory tower? Shell paid over billion in oil spills in gulf of mexico...they paid what..85 million for spills in Africa...what justice? Do you want to talk about colonialism? The greatest instrument of mass exploitation in modern history? Then you come here and claim you're winged angels descended from heavens who have done no wrong? LOL. Oh, the icing on the cake is all these jihadists were propped up by CIA to fight Soviet Union, did you forget that already..it's just 20-30 year old history. 

 

What do you know about terrorism that you and Lys dare bundle me with the lunatics and mass murderers in AQ and IS? You see it on TV and light some candles? I fucking had 3 near misses with my life with 3 terrorist attacks, we've lost over 50,000 people in war against terror, I've seen the destruction first hand and I am lucky to be alive, dont lecture me boy with your selective copy paste context-less pseudo-history. Do you even know what's the system on Hadith, of the link you shared? Do you know how the system of chain verification works? I mean you dont even know the Prophet never claimed to be god, I doubt you know how that system even works, you and I arent even qualified to verify it's authenticity, you'd have to have full knowledge of chains of narration, over 20,000, memorised, with mastry of ancient Arabic and decades of learning and qualification, those are the requirements to preach. Tho, I'll give you that every unedecuated tom dick and harry on every corner is now preaching and spreading anarchy in our society and all kinds of stuff gets online and people take it for granted, there is a system in place, but due to poor governance in much of the developing  countries, that is not enforced, every tom dick and harry Mullah issues a fatwa now, I would'nt pee on these guys and they're the reason why there is this situation, so yes, that is entirely the internal weakness and poor governance on part of Muslim regimes, which are more often than not, corrupt, undemocratic, here for just minting money. 

 

I can't answer that question. Do you hate us? or do you want to kill us?

Probably in the same category as the two muslims that live around me.

Do they ever talk to me?... No

Do they look at me like I'm a piece of shit in my own country?... Yes

 

My wife got to know one of the girlfriends. He wanted this girlfriend to convert and she was just in it for the money. Having drinks was a crime and no way was it to be known that she was drinking with my wife. None the less, she is no longer the girlfriend and she moved on to a much happier relationship. But Mr. Muslim is still there, and we are infidels. End of story, but I do have a loaded Beretta should he ever want to visit us with a big knife.

Lys, I honestly expected you to be more reasonable. I dont want to kill you lol, nor I hate you or  your culture or the people. But if you're going to bundle me with rest of the freaks just because you want to with no basis whatsoever, then I'll be sure to remind you of the very peaceful  history and message of love, liberty and freedom that has been spread around the world via B-52s and covert overthrow of governments.

 

I've seen destruction caused by these freaks first hand, I am vehemently against them, so if you're going to bundle me with them, I'm gonna rant back. Your singular example is just your singular example. I can give you countless examples very opposite of your experience. There are countless muslims paying tax and are law abiding citizens. If you have problem with illegal immigrants, that is a fair point, but illigal immigrants involved in unlawful activities arent just muslims. There should definitely be a more stringent process on who gets in and out of any nation's borders and how the melt with rest of the society and as you gave example of one guy not melting in and being a dick, sure, IMO this kind of behavior needs to be screened before they get in. Most of the western education system is filled with non-natives, they're paying 2x+ the fee to fund the whole system, goto any of the top tier uni, you'll find plenty of non-natives, from MBAs to R&D. 

 

 

Ofc you have right to use the baretta if anyone intends to harm you. 

 

Whenever you visit Dubai, do let me know, I'll take you out for booze and boobs, if that's ok with your wife (second part)  . You'll pay for your own drinks and entertainment tho , However I'll make some nice spicy tandoori chicken for you and your better other and I'll taste it first myself so you know it isnt poisoned, lol. Dont be ridiculous man, my invitation is open and serious, to any IRONer or CNer :-). One PM away, you know, in our culture, guests are protected and taken care to the hilt. 

 

These barbarians are made of the same elements that butchered 130+ kids in Peshawar few days ago, I hope they're all caught and hanged, their supporters punished to the letter of the law and their apologists singled out, highlighted, ridiculed and put behind bars, I'm right there with you bro on this, you should have no doubt on that.

 

World's a shit place unfortunately, there are flaws you can point about me and I can do the same, but those flaws do not apply to everyone, nor does one narrative tell the entire truth.

 

Out of curiosity, are you Sunni, Shia, or perhaps something else?

 

 

 

 

You see, leaving the middle east is not a solution. You are folly to believe that western involvement in the Middle East is the cause of the jihadist movements. Bin Laden and the likes do not/did not engage in terrorism to achieve specific and well defined goals, like driving peacekeepsrs out of a specific country. No. They're fighting against ideologies defferent than their own, a fight that they would only see over with the full extermination of the other groups. They hate everyone that is defferent than them, and they will not stop with the killings.

 

Why else would the Islamic State execute fellow muslims of a slightly different religious practice by the thousands? It's not because of western involvement.

OK OK. First off, AQ and IS have the same goals with 2 major differences:

1. Their belief in who is the rightful Caliph.

2. IS believes "purifying" Islamic society should be the first priority. This is why they kill Muslims.

 

In the end, the Salafi/Wahhabi movement is entirely about western interventionism. The entire idea is to recreate the Caliphate which the west conquered, divided and then exploited for decades. It wouldn't exist if we didn't dismantle the Ottoman Empire to fuel our industrialization.

 

 

Minute difference. The end-goal for both organizations is to end everyone else who thinks differently. Leaving the Middle East wouldn't solve a damn thing, when the minimum the IS wants is this:

 

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--wo3TlGAY--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/792638422386215497.jpg

 

I agree with you on why Islam has is the most problems out of all the AWFUL Abrahamic religions (personal aspect: I belive Atheists are considered to be lowlier than murderers, rapists, or even animals by even moderate Islam - so that is where we start by default), except for the caliphate part. There never was a caliphate throughout history (maybe except for the very first centuries of the religion) that was even acknowledged by the majority of Muslims. By the time the Ottoman Empire was dissolved, the situation was already FUBAR.

 

But we still should have left them to decide their own shit rather than draw lines in the sand and promote false nationalism in borders that weren't even well thought up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

After seeing what the Prophet Mohammad 's  followers do to people , I have come to the conclusion that he is not the kind of god that I want . I will stick to the GOD that I have.

 

It used to be that those that died for freedom, died on the battlefield. It seems the battlefield has been brought to them. These French victims are no different. God rest their souls. Let us honor them in the name of freedom. 

 

3T

Let's not demonize Islam in comparison to other religions. Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody and ridiculous. The only difference is the times and cultural evolution. Christians can't go around burning witches, stoning homosexuals and launching crusades anymore because religion is dying in the west and things are becoming more liberal.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Salafi/Wahhabi movement is a pretty new thing that popped up in opposition to this global liberalization.  Even most Salafists are opposed to this type of crap. Islam should not be defined by the actions of a few dick heads. That's like defining Christianity based on the actions of the KKK or Westburo Baptist Church or one of the other countless Christian sects that are insane.

 

 

I don't follow your point thatf Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody as modern Islamist extremism.  Did Christianity and Judaism retain its membership by threatening to execute anyone who left their religion? Remember, this is according to the example set by Muhammad.  Does Christianity and Judaism teach that those who were not Jewish or Christian are less than fully human? Muhammad said that Muslims can be put to death for murder, but that a Muslim could never be put to death for killing a non-Muslim. 

 

I am not speaking about all Muslims, but this extremist ideology of hatred towards other religions and killing those that do not believe in "Allah". These extremists continue their Jihad against other religions for hundreds of years, checked by the ability of non-Muslims to defend themselves. To this day, not a week goes by that Islamic fundamentalists do not attempt to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists explicity in the name of Allah. 

 

3T

 

You should read the bible. Both the Torah and Bible specifically state that non-believers should all be killed on numerous occasions. Hell, the bible even tells you to kill your kids if they curse at you, stone your daughter if shes not a virgin on her wedding day, and even exterminate entire towns if even one person among them is a non-believer.

The difference is that while the world has become more liberal, the Muslim culture has stayed relatively the same, because unlike Christianity, Islam cannot be edited or changed. The Quran and Sharia remain the way they were written, unlike the bible.

The west inevitably created this problem when we dissolved the Ottoman Empire. We should have never done that.

This extremist ideology is entirely based on that particular event in history.

 

 

You are only proving my point more as to why Islam is not a religion of peace - simply because of how it is interpreted in modern times. All religions at some point have done some heinous activities to impose religious beliefs on people, but they have changed for the embetterment of society and so that it could apply to modern day life. Hell, homosexuals were considered sinners of God, but in modern times, for all we know, God loves all people. The fact that Christianity did change its extremist period, makes it more peaceful than it ever has been. I cannot say the same for Islam.

 

For Islam to not change its calling to kill non-believers is exactly why we are having these issues today.   If you actually read the Quaran, Muhammad was very specific on his views of society and disbelievers, and it leaves no room for change. So again, your point is not well taken when you say that Christianity and Judaism is just as bloody today. You are beginning to sound  anti-semitic, and pro-agnostic in your views on religion as a whole. Not surprising based on your comments.  You also blame the West for inciting this violence, but you have no factual evidence in proving that. You blame the West at a time the Ottoman Empire was already in decline. They made many more internal mistakes than there was external interviention by the Europeans. They attempted to make reforms to centrally control all people within the Empire. Because they did not want people to practice religious freedom, the old practices were no longer effective in a modern world. So don't blame the West for problems the Ottomans created themselves.

 

Muhammad directed Muslims to wage war on other religions and bring them under submission to Islam. After he died, his Arabian comparisons waged wars and invaded and conquered Christians, Jews, Hindus, and many other relgions (aka disbelievers in his view). This is called "radicalism" - the same thing that is going on today. Read your history on why thousands of Muslim armies had captured acres of land and people within the borders of several modern countries outside of Saudi Arabia. Muslims are told to emulate Muhammad - who just so happened to kill those who insulted him and his religion, which included women. Nothing different from today.

 

3T

 

1. Islam is interpreted many different ways. There's a reason that it's study is an ongoing profession.

2. Christianity and Judaism didn't change. The cultures just became more liberal as their societies advanced. More people started become non-religious, and western societies started seeing the benefits of not being judgmental pricks to their people. Both the bible and Torah still openly promote violence against countless people for ridiculous reasons. However Christianity has been changed throughout history. Nowadays Christianity is basically a giant herassy due to the council of Nicea adding a bunch of non-existent crap.

3. I do blame the west. And I don't need evidence. Just look up "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant." Or maybe look up "Wahhabi." Then you can see for yourself what these ideals are and why they exist.

4. You still seem to forget the genocides and crimes committed by Christians and Jews throughout history. It's all in the Bible if you ever want to read it. You can't really call the Quran Evil and then call the bible good. Both books are pretty equally disgusting if you ask me.

5. Don't throw the anti-semite card at me. I'm not defending Islam or calling Judaism evil. I'm simply making the point that it's entirely hypocritical to demonize Islamic belief and then praise Judao/Christian belief.

 

IS aint getting shit. For that to happen, they'd have to kill and maim 1.2 bn (1.3bn?) muslims. They've killed more Muslims than anyone else so far.  As for your opinions regarding Atheists, you'll find all sorts of opinions on the internet, you can pick the most controversial ones like IS or the less ones, like the rest. If you want to discuss it, i'd be happy to do it over the PM, because here it will likely result in a discourse with no end and 200 other new tangents, if you want meaningful chat and discourse, feel free.

Didn't say it was a realistic goal, but a goal nonetheless. Either way terrorists are hostis humani generis and we should return to the good old days when those sort of people were beyond any legal protection.

 

As far as Islam and Atheism goes, there really is little to discuss. This article is quite telling: http://www.economist.com/news/international/21567059-ex-muslim-atheists-are-becoming-more-outspoken-tolerance-still-rare-no-god-not

 

Highlight from the article:

Ibn Warraq says that the nub of the problem is that sharia makes atheism the number one sin, ahead of murder.

What else is there to discuss?

 

 

There is to discuss if I disagree

 

http://ammanmessage.com/media/openLetter/english.pdf

 

 

There is no Compulsion in Religion

You mention that “according to the experts” the verse which begins, There is no compulsion in religion (al-Baqarah

:) is from the early period when the Prophet “was still powerless and under threat,” but this is incorrect. In fact

this verse is acknowledged to belong to the period of Quranic revelation corresponding to the political and military

ascendance of the young Muslim community. There is no compulsion in religion was not a command to Muslims to

remain steadfast in the face of the desire of their oppressors to force them to renounce their faith, but was a reminder

to Muslims themselves, once they had attained power, that they could not force another’s heart to believe. There is

no compulsion in religion addresses those in a position of strength, not weakness. The earliest commentaries on the

Qur’an (such as that ofAl-Tabari) make it clear that some Muslims of Medina wanted to force their children to convert

from Judaism or Christianity to Islam, and this verse was precisely an answer to them not to try to force their

children to convert to Islam. Moroever, Muslims are also guided by such verses as Say: The truth is from your Lord;

so whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. (al-Kahf :); and Say: O disbelievers! I

worship not that which ye worship; Nor worship ye that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which ye worship.

Nor will ye worship that which I worship. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion (al-Kafirun: :-).

Assad recently used chemical weapons on his own people. Did anyone bother to check where those weapons came from? Of course not. Satellite photos confirmed a convoy of trucks into Syria before the invasion of Iraq, and it's believed those weapons were moved. Obama refused ground forces into Syria after his "red line" was crossed. He wouldn't want anyone to find out where those weapons came from, or what weapons are still there. Check out all the Senators, Congressmen, and other world leaders that all said the same thing about Iraq... yeah right... it was all George W. Bush. I personally don't care. Saddam Hussein was a bad dude, and his evil sons too, so mission accomplished. I have no sympathy for terrorists, and not doing something about it is condoning it.

 

After seeing what the Prophet Mohammad 's  followers do to people , I have come to the conclusion that he is not the kind of god that I want . I will stick to the GOD that I have.

 

It used to be that those that died for freedom, died on the battlefield. It seems the battlefield has been brought to them. These French victims are no different. God rest their souls. Let us honor them in the name of freedom. 

 

3T

 

Prophet wasnt a god nor claimed to be one, you need a lesson in history boy.

 

Since you are all here generalising.

 

Bush waged war on Iraq on false premise, then claimed it was a crusade and then said he was guided by God..entire country ruined, thousands upon thousands, that destruction has no equivalent to any violent act in modern history. There you go, religious war, let's talk about Ideologies, you waged war on Vietnam on ideological basis, again it based on a fabricated CB, entire country burned, maimed, thousands if not millions dead. You have audacity to preach freedom to rest of the world? Want to talk about countless ruthless dictators you installed in middle east and South America? How many killed? Do you want to know? Why don't you Google and share the links with us. A nation living under apartheid is sanctioned because it applies to International Criminal court, what justice do you speak of? Each and every netizen spied upon, where is the so called personal liberty you impose through B-52s?  Ousting a democratically elected Iranian government so you can leech cheap oil, where is the democracy you preach from ivory tower? Shell paid over billion in oil spills in gulf of mexico...they paid what..85 million for spills in Africa...what justice? Do you want to talk about colonialism? The greatest instrument of mass exploitation in modern history? Then you come here and claim you're winged angels descended from heavens who have done no wrong? LOL. Oh, the icing on the cake is all these jihadists were propped up by CIA to fight Soviet Union, did you forget that already..it's just 20-30 year old history. 

 

What do you know about terrorism that you and Lys dare bundle me with the lunatics and mass murderers in AQ and IS? You see it on TV and light some candles? I fucking had 3 near misses with my life with 3 terrorist attacks, we've lost over 50,000 people in war against terror, I've seen the destruction first hand and I am lucky to be alive, dont lecture me boy with your selective copy paste context-less pseudo-history. Do you even know what's the system on Hadith, of the link you shared? Do you know how the system of chain verification works? I mean you dont even know the Prophet never claimed to be god, I doubt you know how that system even works, you and I arent even qualified to verify it's authenticity, you'd have to have full knowledge of chains of narration, over 20,000, memorised, with mastry of ancient Arabic and decades of learning and qualification, those are the requirements to preach. Tho, I'll give you that every unedecuated tom dick and harry on every corner is now preaching and spreading anarchy in our society and all kinds of stuff gets online and people take it for granted, there is a system in place, but due to poor governance in much of the developing  countries, that is not enforced, every tom dick and harry Mullah issues a fatwa now, I would'nt pee on these guys and they're the reason why there is this situation, so yes, that is entirely the internal weakness and poor governance on part of Muslim regimes, which are more often than not, corrupt, undemocratic, here for just minting money. 

 

 

You are beginning to bore me with your rhetorical questions. Muhammad said in many places that he has been "ordered by Allah to fight men until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is his messenger."  The way people followed Muhammad and his teachings made Muslims nearly treat him like a god since he was the messenger of God. Muhammad inspired his followers to wage war with the basest of motives. He beheaded captives, enslaved children and raped women captured in battle. If you want defend this malarkey, go ahead. You will be no different from the average confused Muslim who praises Muhammed for "peacefully spreading Allah's message" Go read the Quran and learn something first before you defend evil...boy.

 

Let me first school you on some things [boy] so that you don't spread your ideology, or lack thereof, to the newer generations. Beginning with Roosevelt's "Lend Lease" program, the U.S.A. became a superpower by becoming the world's number one purveyor or arms and military weaponry. We backed every evil but wealthy murderous despot and backed every coup in order to maintain a steady 3 shift manufacturing schedule at General Dynamics, Martin Marietta, Texas Intruments. Lockheed Skunkworks, Honeywell, Rockwell, Pantex, and a thousand other U.S. Corporations thriving on death and misery. The end of the cold war drastically reduced justification and Irangate opened awareness to our secret governments 'under the radar', 'backdoor' weapons dealing. We NEED war. We THRIVE on war. Our strength comes from supplying wars without direct involvement. This is the true purpose and mission of the CIA and other less well know US Intelligence communuity contributors. Now that we are buckling from debt... a massive war is in the making. This is nothing new, ALL nations have done this. 

 

All nations have had religious conflicts since the dawn of time, and it is nothing new today. Take a look at China, one of the oldest establishments of time -- China boasts of a rich cultural history, but religion was a huge factor as with all great nations. Depriving its people of religion isn't just a personal loss for them, nations without religion have no moral base and are doomed to mediocrity. Again, learn your history! 

 

Evil deeds done in hooded darkness, will come to the laser guided light.  If you are a supporter of the ISIS group you should die along with them. Not to mention that I've heard smarter things from a schizophrenic with Tourette's. 

 

3T

 

 

 

 

 

After seeing what the Prophet Mohammad 's  followers do to people , I have come to the conclusion that he is not the kind of god that I want . I will stick to the GOD that I have.

 

It used to be that those that died for freedom, died on the battlefield. It seems the battlefield has been brought to them. These French victims are no different. God rest their souls. Let us honor them in the name of freedom. 

 

3T

Let's not demonize Islam in comparison to other religions. Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody and ridiculous. The only difference is the times and cultural evolution. Christians can't go around burning witches, stoning homosexuals and launching crusades anymore because religion is dying in the west and things are becoming more liberal.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Salafi/Wahhabi movement is a pretty new thing that popped up in opposition to this global liberalization.  Even most Salafists are opposed to this type of crap. Islam should not be defined by the actions of a few dick heads. That's like defining Christianity based on the actions of the KKK or Westburo Baptist Church or one of the other countless Christian sects that are insane.

 

 

I don't follow your point thatf Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody as modern Islamist extremism.  Did Christianity and Judaism retain its membership by threatening to execute anyone who left their religion? Remember, this is according to the example set by Muhammad.  Does Christianity and Judaism teach that those who were not Jewish or Christian are less than fully human? Muhammad said that Muslims can be put to death for murder, but that a Muslim could never be put to death for killing a non-Muslim. 

 

I am not speaking about all Muslims, but this extremist ideology of hatred towards other religions and killing those that do not believe in "Allah". These extremists continue their Jihad against other religions for hundreds of years, checked by the ability of non-Muslims to defend themselves. To this day, not a week goes by that Islamic fundamentalists do not attempt to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists explicity in the name of Allah. 

 

3T

 

You should read the bible. Both the Torah and Bible specifically state that non-believers should all be killed on numerous occasions. Hell, the bible even tells you to kill your kids if they curse at you, stone your daughter if shes not a virgin on her wedding day, and even exterminate entire towns if even one person among them is a non-believer.

The difference is that while the world has become more liberal, the Muslim culture has stayed relatively the same, because unlike Christianity, Islam cannot be edited or changed. The Quran and Sharia remain the way they were written, unlike the bible.

The west inevitably created this problem when we dissolved the Ottoman Empire. We should have never done that.

This extremist ideology is entirely based on that particular event in history.

 

 

You are only proving my point more as to why Islam is not a religion of peace - simply because of how it is interpreted in modern times. All religions at some point have done some heinous activities to impose religious beliefs on people, but they have changed for the embetterment of society and so that it could apply to modern day life. Hell, homosexuals were considered sinners of God, but in modern times, for all we know, God loves all people. The fact that Christianity did change its extremist period, makes it more peaceful than it ever has been. I cannot say the same for Islam.

 

For Islam to not change its calling to kill non-believers is exactly why we are having these issues today.   If you actually read the Quaran, Muhammad was very specific on his views of society and disbelievers, and it leaves no room for change. So again, your point is not well taken when you say that Christianity and Judaism is just as bloody today. You are beginning to sound  anti-semitic, and pro-agnostic in your views on religion as a whole. Not surprising based on your comments.  You also blame the West for inciting this violence, but you have no factual evidence in proving that. You blame the West at a time the Ottoman Empire was already in decline. They made many more internal mistakes than there was external interviention by the Europeans. They attempted to make reforms to centrally control all people within the Empire. Because they did not want people to practice religious freedom, the old practices were no longer effective in a modern world. So don't blame the West for problems the Ottomans created themselves.

Muhammad directed Muslims to wage war on other religions and bring them under submission to Islam. After he died, his Arabian comparisons waged wars and invaded and conquered Christians, Jews, Hindus, and many other relgions (aka disbelievers in his view). This is called "radicalism" - the same thing that is going on today. Read your history on why thousands of Muslim armies had captured acres of land and people within the borders of several modern countries outside of Saudi Arabia. Muslims are told to emulate Muhammad - who just so happened to kill those who insulted him and his religion, which included women. Nothing different from today.

 

3T

 

1. Islam is interpreted many different ways. There's a reason that it's study is an ongoing profession.

2. Christianity and Judaism didn't change. The cultures just became more liberal as their societies advanced. More people started become non-religious, and western societies started seeing the benefits of not being judgmental pricks to their people. Both the bible and Torah still openly promote violence against countless people for ridiculous reasons. However Christianity has been changed throughout history. Nowadays Christianity is basically a giant herassy due to the council of Nicea adding a bunch of non-existent crap.

3. I do blame the west. And I don't need evidence. Just look up "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant." Or maybe look up "Wahhabi." Then you can see for yourself what these ideals are and why they exist.

4. You still seem to forget the genocides and crimes committed by Christians and Jews throughout history. It's all in the Bible if you ever want to read it. You can't really call the Quran Evil and then call the bible good. Both books are pretty equally disgusting if you ask me.

5. Don't throw the anti-semite card at me. I'm not defending Islam or calling Judaism evil. I'm simply making the point that it's entirely hypocritical to demonize Islamic belief and then praise Judao/Christian belief.

 

-----

 

I have come to the conclusion that you are a true defender of Islam if you keep condemning the Bible, Christianity and every other religion other than Islam. You are beginning to sound like the Prophet Muhammad himself. 

 

3T

Assad recently used chemical weapons on his own people. Did anyone bother to check where those weapons came from? Of course not. Satellite photos confirmed a convoy of trucks into Syria before the invasion of Iraq, and it's believed those weapons were moved. Obama refused ground forces into Syria after his "red line" was crossed. He wouldn't want anyone to find out where those weapons came from, or what weapons are still there. Check out all the Senators, Congressmen, and other world leaders that all said the same thing about Iraq... yeah right... it was all George W. Bush. I personally don't care. Saddam Hussein was a bad dude, and his evil sons too, so mission accomplished. I have no sympathy for terrorists, and not doing something about it is condoning it.

 

Syria's had chemical weapons program since 70s  according to defense dept assessment, supplied by Soviet Union and Egypt.. 

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/R42848.pdf

. 

As far as Saddam being a bad dude etc, I agree, but I'll just share this for lols and irony.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-153210/Rumsfeld-helped-Iraq-chemical-weapons.html

 

Regarding 'Mission accomplished', I think we had a whole year of that meme :|.

 

I'm not sure if you're just saying stuff to mess with me or are srs bsnss. 

Edited January 7, 201511 yr by Shahenshah

 

 

After seeing what the Prophet Mohammad 's  followers do to people , I have come to the conclusion that he is not the kind of god that I want . I will stick to the GOD that I have.

 

It used to be that those that died for freedom, died on the battlefield. It seems the battlefield has been brought to them. These French victims are no different. God rest their souls. Let us honor them in the name of freedom. 

 

3T

 

Prophet wasnt a god nor claimed to be one, you need a lesson in history boy.

 

Since you are all here generalising.

 

Bush waged war on Iraq on false premise, then claimed it was a crusade and then said he was guided by God..entire country ruined, thousands upon thousands, that destruction has no equivalent to any violent act in modern history. There you go, religious war, let's talk about Ideologies, you waged war on Vietnam on ideological basis, again it based on a fabricated CB, entire country burned, maimed, thousands if not millions dead. You have audacity to preach freedom to rest of the world? Want to talk about countless ruthless dictators you installed in middle east and South America? How many killed? Do you want to know? Why don't you Google and share the links with us. A nation living under apartheid is sanctioned because it applies to International Criminal court, what justice do you speak of? Each and every netizen spied upon, where is the so called personal liberty you impose through B-52s?  Ousting a democratically elected Iranian government so you can leech cheap oil, where is the democracy you preach from ivory tower? Shell paid over billion in oil spills in gulf of mexico...they paid what..85 million for spills in Africa...what justice? Do you want to talk about colonialism? The greatest instrument of mass exploitation in modern history? Then you come here and claim you're winged angels descended from heavens who have done no wrong? LOL. Oh, the icing on the cake is all these jihadists were propped up by CIA to fight Soviet Union, did you forget that already..it's just 20-30 year old history. 

 

What do you know about terrorism that you and Lys dare bundle me with the lunatics and mass murderers in AQ and IS? You see it on TV and light some candles? I fucking had 3 near misses with my life with 3 terrorist attacks, we've lost over 50,000 people in war against terror, I've seen the destruction first hand and I am lucky to be alive, dont lecture me boy with your selective copy paste context-less pseudo-history. Do you even know what's the system on Hadith, of the link you shared? Do you know how the system of chain verification works? I mean you dont even know the Prophet never claimed to be god, I doubt you know how that system even works, you and I arent even qualified to verify it's authenticity, you'd have to have full knowledge of chains of narration, over 20,000, memorised, with mastry of ancient Arabic and decades of learning and qualification, those are the requirements to preach. Tho, I'll give you that every unedecuated tom dick and harry on every corner is now preaching and spreading anarchy in our society and all kinds of stuff gets online and people take it for granted, there is a system in place, but due to poor governance in much of the developing  countries, that is not enforced, every tom dick and harry Mullah issues a fatwa now, I would'nt pee on these guys and they're the reason why there is this situation, so yes, that is entirely the internal weakness and poor governance on part of Muslim regimes, which are more often than not, corrupt, undemocratic, here for just minting money. 

 

 

You are beginning to bore me with your rhetorical questions. Muhammad said in many places that he has been "ordered by Allah to fight men until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is his messenger."  The way people followed Muhammad and his teachings made Muslims nearly treat him like a god since he was the messenger of God. Muhammad inspired his followers to wage war with the basest of motives. He beheaded captives, enslaved children and raped women captured in battle. If you want defend this malarkey, go ahead. You will be no different from the average confused Muslim who praises Muhammed for "peacefully spreading Allah's message" Go read the Quran and learn something first before you defend evil...boy.

 

Let me first school you on some things [boy] so that you don't spread your ideology, or lack thereof, to the newer generations. Beginning with Roosevelt's "Lend Lease" program, the U.S.A. became a superpower by becoming the world's number one purveyor or arms and military weaponry. We backed every evil but wealthy murderous despot and backed every coup in order to maintain a steady 3 shift manufacturing schedule at General Dynamics, Martin Marietta, Texas Intruments. Lockheed Skunkworks, Honeywell, Rockwell, Pantex, and a thousand other U.S. Corporations thriving on death and misery. The end of the cold war drastically reduced justification and Irangate opened awareness to our secret governments 'under the radar', 'backdoor' weapons dealing. We NEED war. We THRIVE on war. Our strength comes from supplying wars without direct involvement. This is the true purpose and mission of the CIA and other less well know US Intelligence communuity contributors. Now that we are buckling from debt... a massive war is in the making. This is nothing new, ALL nations have done this. 

 

All nations have had religious conflicts since the dawn of time, and it is nothing new today. Take a look at China, one of the oldest establishments of time -- China boasts of a rich cultural history, but religion was a huge factor as with all great nations. Depriving its people of religion isn't just a personal loss for them, nations without religion have no moral base and are doomed to mediocrity. Again, learn your history! 

 

Evil deeds done in hooded darkness, will come to the laser guided light.  If you are a supporter of the ISIS group you should die along with them. Not to mention that I've heard smarter things from a schizophrenic with Tourette's. 

 

3T

 

 

Yes, every ISIS supporter needs to die, the part I'll agree with. Rest of your post is more about my evil > your evil. 

Edited January 7, 201511 yr by Shahenshah

I have come to the conclusion that you are a true defender of Islam if

you keep condemning the Bible, Christianity and every other religion

other than Islam. You are beginning to sound like the Prophet Muhammad

himself.

LOL! Yeah. Ignore my condemnations of Islam.

I really hate how people like you accuse me of being anti-semetic or a terrorist lover just because I point out their hypocrisy.

Listen, IDGAF what religion anyone is. I'm a Taoist. I find all Abrahamic religion to be disturbing in their historical texts. That doesn't mean I find the followers of these religions to be disturbing. My family is Christian. I make a valid attempt to understand all ideals and beliefs. Everything from most adored, to the most hated, like IS or Nazism. I have a respect for people in general and I reject the idea that anyone anywhere at any time is completely good, or completely evil.

The vast majority of muslims I've met or spoken to denounce groups like Islamic State and radical war mongering beliefs. And when I do run into those few who want to rant about how their religion will take over the world, I'll definitely call them out on it. Same way I'll call out any stupid argument, like the one you're making now.

But we still should have left them to decide their own shit rather than draw lines in the sand and promote false nationalism in borders that weren't even well thought up.

Nationalism was never an issue in the Middle East, sectarianism was and is. The roots of that far preceeds any "western" meddling

There is to discuss if I disagree

 

http://ammanmessage.com/media/openLetter/english.pdf

 

 

 

There is no Compulsion in Religion

You mention that “according to the experts” the verse which begins, There is no compulsion in religion (al-Baqarah

:) is from the early period when the Prophet “was still powerless and under threat,” but this is incorrect. In fact

this verse is acknowledged to belong to the period of Quranic revelation corresponding to the political and military

ascendance of the young Muslim community. There is no compulsion in religion was not a command to Muslims to

remain steadfast in the face of the desire of their oppressors to force them to renounce their faith, but was a reminder

to Muslims themselves, once they had attained power, that they could not force another’s heart to believe. There is

no compulsion in religion addresses those in a position of strength, not weakness. The earliest commentaries on the

Qur’an (such as that ofAl-Tabari) make it clear that some Muslims of Medina wanted to force their children to convert

from Judaism or Christianity to Islam, and this verse was precisely an answer to them not to try to force their

children to convert to Islam. Moroever, Muslims are also guided by such verses as Say: The truth is from your Lord;

so whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. (al-Kahf :); and Say: O disbelievers! I

worship not that which ye worship; Nor worship ye that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which ye worship.

Nor will ye worship that which I worship. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion (al-Kafirun: :-).

 

That quote is not about Atheism. Bolded for emphasis

O disbelievers! I worship not that which ye worship; Nor worship ye that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which ye worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

It clearly applies to theists only. But I'm not debating that early Islam was generally tolerant of other religions (mostly monotheistic ones, as it saw Jews and Christians somewhat misguided followers of Allah, but were less lenient with politheistic and tribal religions). What I'm saying is that Atheism is not a construct that Islam even comprehends. But if we start from the premise that "Muslims believe that the creation of everything in the universe was brought into being by God's sheer command, "'Be' and so it is," and that the purpose of existence is to worship God." then we can conclude that Atheism is not something that is looked upon favorably.

 

The closest is Apostasy, and to put it mildly, it's not very recommended: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

Also see the article I previously linked

Also, Salman Rushdie

Nationalism was never an issue in the Middle East, sectarianism was and

is. The roots of that far preceeds any "western" meddling

True, but I still think the Sykes-Pikot agreement and and Balfour Declaration are single biggest things wrong with the middle east and the whole reason theres a hate for the west. Hence why we should just leave and let them sort it out themselves. Will people die? Of course, but people are going to die no matter what way we go about this. Surely the cradle of civilization can sort out its own problems.

 

 

 

After seeing what the Prophet Mohammad 's  followers do to people , I have come to the conclusion that he is not the kind of god that I want . I will stick to the GOD that I have.

 

It used to be that those that died for freedom, died on the battlefield. It seems the battlefield has been brought to them. These French victims are no different. God rest their souls. Let us honor them in the name of freedom. 

 

3T

Let's not demonize Islam in comparison to other religions. Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody and ridiculous. The only difference is the times and cultural evolution. Christians can't go around burning witches, stoning homosexuals and launching crusades anymore because religion is dying in the west and things are becoming more liberal.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Salafi/Wahhabi movement is a pretty new thing that popped up in opposition to this global liberalization.  Even most Salafists are opposed to this type of crap. Islam should not be defined by the actions of a few dick heads. That's like defining Christianity based on the actions of the KKK or Westburo Baptist Church or one of the other countless Christian sects that are insane.

 

 

I don't follow your point thatf Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody as modern Islamist extremism.  Did Christianity and Judaism retain its membership by threatening to execute anyone who left their religion? Remember, this is according to the example set by Muhammad.  Does Christianity and Judaism teach that those who were not Jewish or Christian are less than fully human? Muhammad said that Muslims can be put to death for murder, but that a Muslim could never be put to death for killing a non-Muslim. 

 

I am not speaking about all Muslims, but this extremist ideology of hatred towards other religions and killing those that do not believe in "Allah". These extremists continue their Jihad against other religions for hundreds of years, checked by the ability of non-Muslims to defend themselves. To this day, not a week goes by that Islamic fundamentalists do not attempt to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists explicity in the name of Allah. 

 

3T

 

You should read the bible. Both the Torah and Bible specifically state that non-believers should all be killed on numerous occasions. Hell, the bible even tells you to kill your kids if they curse at you, stone your daughter if shes not a virgin on her wedding day, and even exterminate entire towns if even one person among them is a non-believer.

The difference is that while the world has become more liberal, the Muslim culture has stayed relatively the same, because unlike Christianity, Islam cannot be edited or changed. The Quran and Sharia remain the way they were written, unlike the bible.

The west inevitably created this problem when we dissolved the Ottoman Empire. We should have never done that.

This extremist ideology is entirely based on that particular event in history.

 

Whoa, I have to comment on this one. the Torah says that. I've have never seen that anywhere within the Bible. Anywhere. That would be a direct contradiction to what it says. I have never seen any verses in the bible like the ones you describe here Fox Fire. 

 

 

 

 

So, let me point something out about the middle east. Its a completely different culture there then in the United States. Religion is very important to these people and compared to Religion in the United States or in Europe, we are very laid back. There are really 2 type of islamic beliefs. There are those who believe but think they should be nice. There are good islamic people. Then you have the extremists. Like al qaeda. They are different, and the more outspoken or more active people will heard and remembered more than the less quiet ones. That being said, both types thinks the other is despicable and hypocritical. Religion is more important than life in the middle east. Over here, its a laid back thing that doesn't compare. 

 

There is no solution in the Middle East. At least none that "The Western World" could come up with. Because ideals are completely different. But turning our head and letting them work out their problems isn't a solution either. The basic principles that forge who we are, don't hold up to these peoples standards. If we decide just to pull completely out of the Middle East, It would look like some parts of Africa. Absolute Chaos and Genocide. Which could last 100 years or longer there. Our Involvement merely delays the chaos that the middle east is. This area is going to remain like this unless a Group emerges that isn't Extremists from there, and can gain just as much power and support as the extremist groups out there. I highly doubt such a group can emerge. America is merely peacekeepers, who install these Democracies with no backbone or foundation like we have here. I can't think of scenario that we could install any government anywhere with backbone and foundation that can hold up. 

 

War is second hand human nature. Fueled by money, motive, land, and ambition. Nobody goes to war without these things. Go in half heartedly into war, and it can and probably will eat you alive. 

 

 

 

 

After seeing what the Prophet Mohammad 's  followers do to people , I have come to the conclusion that he is not the kind of god that I want . I will stick to the GOD that I have.

 

It used to be that those that died for freedom, died on the battlefield. It seems the battlefield has been brought to them. These French victims are no different. God rest their souls. Let us honor them in the name of freedom. 

 

3T

Let's not demonize Islam in comparison to other religions. Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody and ridiculous. The only difference is the times and cultural evolution. Christians can't go around burning witches, stoning homosexuals and launching crusades anymore because religion is dying in the west and things are becoming more liberal.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Salafi/Wahhabi movement is a pretty new thing that popped up in opposition to this global liberalization.  Even most Salafists are opposed to this type of crap. Islam should not be defined by the actions of a few dick heads. That's like defining Christianity based on the actions of the KKK or Westburo Baptist Church or one of the other countless Christian sects that are insane.

 

 

I don't follow your point thatf Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody as modern Islamist extremism.  Did Christianity and Judaism retain its membership by threatening to execute anyone who left their religion? Remember, this is according to the example set by Muhammad.  Does Christianity and Judaism teach that those who were not Jewish or Christian are less than fully human? Muhammad said that Muslims can be put to death for murder, but that a Muslim could never be put to death for killing a non-Muslim. 

 

I am not speaking about all Muslims, but this extremist ideology of hatred towards other religions and killing those that do not believe in "Allah". These extremists continue their Jihad against other religions for hundreds of years, checked by the ability of non-Muslims to defend themselves. To this day, not a week goes by that Islamic fundamentalists do not attempt to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists explicity in the name of Allah. 

 

3T

 

You should read the bible. Both the Torah and Bible specifically state that non-believers should all be killed on numerous occasions. Hell, the bible even tells you to kill your kids if they curse at you, stone your daughter if shes not a virgin on her wedding day, and even exterminate entire towns if even one person among them is a non-believer.

The difference is that while the world has become more liberal, the Muslim culture has stayed relatively the same, because unlike Christianity, Islam cannot be edited or changed. The Quran and Sharia remain the way they were written, unlike the bible.

The west inevitably created this problem when we dissolved the Ottoman Empire. We should have never done that.

This extremist ideology is entirely based on that particular event in history.

 

Whoa, I have to comment on this one. the Torah says that. I've have never seen that anywhere within the Bible. Anywhere. That would be a direct contradiction to what it says. I have never seen any verses in the bible like the ones you describe here Fox Fire. 

 

 

 

 

So, let me point something out about the middle east. Its a completely different culture there then in the United States. Religion is very important to these people and compared to Religion in the United States or in Europe, we are very laid back. There are really 2 type of islamic beliefs. There are those who believe but think they should be nice. There are good islamic people. Then you have the extremists. Like al qaeda. They are different, and the more outspoken or more active people will heard and remembered more than the less quiet ones. That being said, both types thinks the other is despicable and hypocritical. Religion is more important than life in the middle east. Over here, its a laid back thing that doesn't compare. 

 

There is no solution in the Middle East. At least none that "The Western World" could come up with. Because ideals are completely different. But turning our head and letting them work out their problems isn't a solution either. The basic principles that forge who we are, don't hold up to these peoples standards. If we decide just to pull completely out of the Middle East, It would look like some parts of Africa. Absolute Chaos and Genocide. Which could last 100 years or longer there. Our Involvement merely delays the chaos that the middle east is. This area is going to remain like this unless a Group emerges that isn't Extremists from there, and can gain just as much power and support as the extremist groups out there. I highly doubt such a group can emerge. America is merely peacekeepers, who install these Democracies with no backbone or foundation like we have here. I can't think of scenario that we could install any government anywhere with backbone and foundation that can hold up. 

 

War is second hand human nature. Fueled by money, motive, land, and ambition. Nobody goes to war without these things. Go in half heartedly into war, and it can and probably will eat you alive. 

 

I really dont want to turn this into a Christian bashing thread. But I've read the bible, and that's exactly why I stopped being a Christian. I could post a wall of quotes from the bible, but I already did this on the OWF to the displeasure of many Christians and Jews. Equally, I can post a wall of identical quotes from the Quran.

 

As for the middle east and different types of Muslims.... Here's the thing:

Islam is not like Judaism and Christianity in the sense that Islam is a much broader belief. It's not just a religion, it's a way of life complete with a political ideology and law. America would be pretty simaler to a Muslim state if the Church were in charge.

The study of the Quran and it's interpretation is an ongoing debate. Always has been. This is where you get most of the disagreements you see among Muslims about the religion. 

Okay I'm out of this one... I'm really cut and dry about my views, and debating religion is not my thing.

I do agree with Shah on the "my evil > than your evil" thing, I understand where he's coming from.

I'm very sad about what happened in France, and I hope us Americans support their resolution.

You know, Marine LePen is right on this one. Time to dust off the guillotines.

small chance its IS, they would have made a video about it already >_>

 

also, no.

 

I'm afraid people are getting numb to this. This is an outrage, and it has to end. It's getting to where everyone just expects it to happen and shrugs it off as "well it was only 12"... "at least no one lost their head"... "it was them, and not us".

 

Muslims are migrating. More into Europe than anywhere else, and they intend to take over. My position became clear on 9/11 when I saw my city of Las Vegas in a single day... vacated. Empty. As in ghost town. The largest tourist city in the world changed over night.

 

There are two kinds of Muslims. The ones that hate you, and the ones that want to kill you.

Declare worldwide, Islam is a form of government and treat it as such. Until we take this dead serious, we will have more deaths.

In which category of Muslim do I fall, do tell.

 

the cudly ones

small chance its IS, they would have made a video about it already >_>

Supposedly it was AQ not IS

 

small chance its IS, they would have made a video about it already >_>

Supposedly it was AQ not IS

 

yeah just saying, not enough mediacircus afterwards. AQ is plausible but no suicide nor bombs used (unlessperhaps some grenades for the bangs) and the perpetrators used bulletresistant jackets aswell.

 

small chance its IS, they would have made a video about it already >_>

Supposedly it was AQ not IS

 

 

 

 

(CNN)Hooded gunmen dressed in black burst into the office of French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo Wednesday, killing 12 people in a coordinated strike and escaping onto the streets of Paris.

The

three suspects behind the attack have been identified, Paris Deputy

Mayor Patrick Klugman told CNN. Two of them are brothers.

French authorities vowed to step up security and apprehend those responsible.

"Everything

will be done to arrest (the attackers)," French President Francois

Hollande said in a speech Wednesday night. "... We also have to protect

all public places. Security forces will be deployed everywhere there can

be the beginning" of a threat.

It's too soon to say whether the suspects were operating alone, CNN terrorism analyst Paul Cruickshank said.

Some

experts warned that how well the gunmen wielded their weapons, hid

their identities and apparently planned their escape showed a marked

difference form other "lone wolf" attacks -- and could be a game

changer.

Latest update at 5:10 p.m. ET

• Klugman did not name the suspects, but said they were 34, 32 and 18 and from a suburb outside Paris.

 

IDK. Seems lone wolf-ish to me.