661 replies to this topic

[Ali bin Turban]

I had pretty much chalked this up to the loss column after the failed attempt to lynch Mandarijn happened, and Kevin was lynched. All 4 of the scum were on the Mandarijn wagon

 

This. After that vote it was obvious who's who. If there was a scum voting along with Mandarijn all he needed to do was to switch his vote to end game. I can't believe you guys have lost it . 

[Ali bin Turban]

I'd say this game actually leaned pro-mafia a bit.

- Town didn't felt more powerful. Sure they got one more role than usually but combined powers of those roles wasn't better: insane cop is inferior to standard cop and Bodyguard is poor mans Doctor. Mafia at the same time got 2 more roles than usually, albeit having a drawback of one of their own being hidden in the town-crowd

- Secondly with insane cop, godfather and framer on board there was so much misinformation that town was guaranteed to make a misslynch. I need to be honest - it's much more fun than standard thoughtless PR "fire and forget" action and big props for TW for trying it out. However this game has limited depth of play (measured by amount of possible misslynches) and by the time town realizes that cops results are almost "random" (there are to many unknown factors to create a pattern) it's over.

 

This is however skewed by one more factor - which is terrible activity. We've lost days with so many people not playing and it was to easy for the scum to vanish and not participate.

 

All in all it was a very fun setup and it's really a shame we didn't got the most of it due to activity.

[Ali bin Turban]

However I was not aware a Framer could make scum appear not-scum; per the mafiascum wiki it just makes anyone return a "mafia" result. They note there's a variant to make scum appear non-scum, the Tailor - but what we had was just a Framer. Obviously interpretation was up to TW, but being able to 'protect' themselves in that way is interesting. http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Framer

 

Also this. Framer can only make people guilty, therefore he does nothing when targeting other scums. Sure TW can do whatever he want's with his roles but he shouldn't call those custom roles the same, since Framer here is not a Framer we can read about on mafia wiki.

[The Warrior]

I'm glad you enjoyed it despite the activity from some. It is unfortunate when everyone who signs up cannot afford to dedicate the appropriate amount of time to the game and in larger games it is more difficult to find replacements because most of the active mafia players are already involved.

 

In my opinion there are really only a couple things we can do to rectify low activity/lurking issues as a community:

 

1) If you cannot afford to actively participate in a game at a certain time, sit it out. Don't hurt the game by going inactive for a week.

2) Make a concerted effort as a mafia community to eliminate lurkers and severely inactive players by choosing to get rid of them during the early game days if replacements are not found for them. I want to stress this point in particular: it is obviously easier to eliminate someone who has said or done something relatively suspect early on, but just remember that every player in the game has the exact same odds of being scum. Roles are assigned completely randomly so an inactive player could be scum just as easily as an active player. If we make a real effort as a group to get rid of lurkers/inactives early in games it will either force them to actively participate or stop them from signing up and affecting other future games.

 

However I was not aware a Framer could make scum appear not-scum; per the mafiascum wiki it just makes anyone return a "mafia" result. They note there's a variant to make scum appear non-scum, the Tailor - but what we had was just a Framer. Obviously interpretation was up to TW, but being able to 'protect' themselves in that way is interesting. http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Framer

Also this. Framer can only make people guilty, therefore he does nothing when targeting other scums. Sure TW can do whatever he want's with his roles but he shouldn't call those custom roles the same, since Framer here is not a Framer we can read about on mafia wiki.

 

I will admit that I should have probably labeled Rhizo's role as a Tailor instead of a Framer in this particular game, however, I will also note that if that question had been asked of me during the game, I would have responded and confirmed this as a possibility. Questions can always be asked of the mod in-game or in a PM. Whether or not an answer is given to a particular question is up to the mod's discretion of course but you won't know if you don't ask.

[Ali bin Turban]

2) Make a concerted effort as a mafia community to eliminate lurkers and severely inactive players by choosing to get rid of them during the early game days if replacements are not found for them. I want to stress this point in particular: it is obviously easier to eliminate someone who has said or done something relatively suspect early on, but just remember that every player in the game has the exact same odds of being scum. Roles are assigned completely randomly so an inactive player could be scum just as easily as an active player. If we make a real effort as a group to get rid of lurkers/inactives early in games it will either force them to actively participate or stop them from signing up and affecting other future games.

 

This really won't solve problems. It's KevinH's way (of killing low posters) and it always leads to town loosing the game. I think it would be better for a Mod to prepare a contingency plan: For example when there's a game with 15 people, mod could also had a setup for 13 players (reducing/increasing powers, adding/removing roles, etc) so that if needed game can drop inactives and transit into new mode.

[The Warrior]

Changing a game's mechanics mid-game would not be a very easy thing to do. There are a lot of balance issues that need to be figured out. It would essentially require each game mod to prepare two entirely different setups for the same game. That's a lot of work.

[KevinH]

It's KevinH's way (of killing low posters) and it always leads to town loosing the game.

 

I can't leave that unchallenged.

Of the last 10 games, the town has won 5 of them. Of those 5 town wins, I was part of 4 of them.

I might not have always been successful in my lobby to kill low posters, but to say that it always leads to the town losing the game is patently false.

[Rhizoctonia]

I'd say this game actually leaned pro-mafia a bit.

- Town didn't felt more powerful. Sure they got one more role than usually but combined powers of those roles wasn't better: insane cop is inferior to standard cop and Bodyguard is poor mans Doctor. Mafia at the same time got 2 more roles than usually, albeit having a drawback of one of their own being hidden in the town-crowd

- Secondly with insane cop, godfather and framer on board there was so much misinformation that town was guaranteed to make a misslynch. I need to be honest - it's much more fun than standard thoughtless PR "fire and forget" action and big props for TW for trying it out. However this game has limited depth of play (measured by amount of possible misslynches) and by the time town realizes that cops results are almost "random" (there are to many unknown factors to create a pattern) it's over.

 

This is however skewed by one more factor - which is terrible activity. We've lost days with so many people not playing and it was to easy for the scum to vanish and not participate.

 

All in all it was a very fun setup and it's really a shame we didn't got the most of it due to activity.

 

 

I wouldn't really say it was pro-mafia really in my opinion.

 

 As you already mentioned, scum was unknown that they had a 4th, only I knew there was 4.  That alone comes as quite a disadvantage, as not only could we not discuss my night actions, but more importantly, I could just as easily been killed off at night, not only wasting their one night kill but killing one of their own unknown to them.  I tried as best to look town to the rest of town, but also have scum not take me out.  Looking to agree with them at certain points, while also calling some of their scumminess out in hopes they would be afraid to lynch me.  But I could very well of been a target, especially when I was apart of a late effort to get Kevin lynched the one day (I purely was hoping the admin would come on and end the day before others jumped ship on Kevin and he actually go lynched).  I felt that scored me some bonus town points, but it also put me as a target to want to kill at night.  Once WP came out with his findings, I was more safe coming up the same as Kevin, and killing me would expose that WP was insane so they had to keep my alive for awhile.  Not only that, because they didn't know my role, and all along thought I was an SK, wasted like 2 night actions roleblocking me when they could of used it elsewhere.  

 

The Godfather didn't actually give any mis-information.  The Godfather role in general was no help.  The Godfather (Yehom) came up helpful, exactly the same as I and Kevin did who didn't have investigation immunity.  The mis-information would still be a result of the Insane Cop, the Godfather role did nothing to change that.  In all honesty, it was pointless role in my opinion, as Yehom would of came up the same if he was a Godfather or if he was simply a mafia Goon, it did nothing to help him.  I was actually surprised when Yehom came up the same as us...knowing WP was insane, it would of been much more helpful to the mafia if the result changed to Non-helpful to resemble what you and other town came up.  So really, Godfather wasn't even a useful role to have.
 

 

I think scum not knowing they had another partner and could possibly kill off their own, along with basically having a useless Godfather role, it wasn't that pro-mafia..along with my role being useful if hit right, but chances being pretty low.  

[Yehom]

I do agree that the Framer role was very circumstantial, but very powerful if used perfectly and to our credit we did exactly that

[Wolfpacks]

Still it was my fault that town lost, i threw away the framer suggestions and just went with my investigations, if i had stayed with the plan, town would have romped it

[iSocialism]

Still it was my fault that town lost, i threw away the framer suggestions and just went with my investigations, if i had stayed with the plan, town would have romped it

You were very lucky/skill gut feeling and able to target every scum player. Without that the town probably didn't even have a chance to begin with.

[Sister Midnight]

Congratulations to the winners!

I had pretty much chalked this up to the loss column after the failed attempt to lynch Mandarijn happened, and Kevin was lynched. All 4 of the scum were on the Mandarijn wagon

 
This. After that vote it was obvious who's who. If there was a scum voting along with Mandarijn all he needed to do was to switch his vote to end game. I can't believe you guys have lost it . 

Yep. I was quite shocked. Had I not been murdered I would have fought for everyone who voted for Mandy to be lynched.

Btw, why did you guys kill me, I was the weakest looking player? Granted I was able to pull myself together after Ali's death, but I played very badly and I figured everyone had written me off. Just curious.

[Chaplain of death]

I'm glad you enjoyed it despite the activity from some. It is unfortunate when everyone who signs up cannot afford to dedicate the appropriate amount of time to the game and in larger games it is more difficult to find replacements because most of the active mafia players are already involved.

 

In my opinion there are really only a couple things we can do to rectify low activity/lurking issues as a community:

 

1) If you cannot afford to actively participate in a game at a certain time, sit it out. Don't hurt the game by going inactive for a week.

2) Make a concerted effort as a mafia community to eliminate lurkers and severely inactive players by choosing to get rid of them during the early game days if replacements are not found for them. I want to stress this point in particular: it is obviously easier to eliminate someone who has said or done something relatively suspect early on, but just remember that every player in the game has the exact same odds of being scum. Roles are assigned completely randomly so an inactive player could be scum just as easily as an active player. If we make a real effort as a group to get rid of lurkers/inactives early in games it will either force them to actively participate or stop them from signing up and affecting other future games.

 

However I was not aware a Framer could make scum appear not-scum; per the mafiascum wiki it just makes anyone return a "mafia" result. They note there's a variant to make scum appear non-scum, the Tailor - but what we had was just a Framer. Obviously interpretation was up to TW, but being able to 'protect' themselves in that way is interesting. http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Framer

Also this. Framer can only make people guilty, therefore he does nothing when targeting other scums. Sure TW can do whatever he want's with his roles but he shouldn't call those custom roles the same, since Framer here is not a Framer we can read about on mafia wiki.

 

I will admit that I should have probably labeled Rhizo's role as a Tailor instead of a Framer in this particular game, however, I will also note that if that question had been asked of me during the game, I would have responded and confirmed this as a possibility. Questions can always be asked of the mod in-game or in a PM. Whether or not an answer is given to a particular question is up to the mod's discretion of course but you won't know if you don't ask.

 

Take this criticism with a grain of salt as you've done quite well thus far modding and I have no desire to discourage you from continuing to mod.

 

We can't be second guessing the information you've already given us. We don't need to ask the mod what the Framer role can do if that framer role's rules are readily available. Its on you as the mod to make sure that any and all information provided to the players is accurate. If you departed from the norm, and realized that there could be a mix-up, you could have corrected us when the issue was discussed in game. Many of us fall back on the wiki, if your rules are different in some way from those on the wiki, you should inform the town ASAP after you notice this (like if we are saying the it works in a way different from how you are having it work and are linking to a wiki page saying the same). It would obviously be better to double check before hand as you are essentially confirming the existence of a role if you have to correct the rules regarding a specific role.

 

Otherwise nice game. Found it a bit like pulling teeth to get the town to even make an attempt at winning..... so it goes. Well played on the insane cop role scum.

[Wolfpacks]

Being a newish player to the Mafia game i tend to ask questions, TW has always been helpful when i have to ask him something, keep up the great work mate.

[KevinH]

Btw, why did you guys kill me, I was the weakest looking player? Granted I was able to pull myself together after Ali's death, but I played very badly and I figured everyone had written me off. Just curious.

 

You were the least likely to get votes from other townies and most likely would have voted for a scum.

[Sister Midnight]

Btw, why did you guys kill me, I was the weakest looking player? Granted I was able to pull myself together after Ali's death, but I played very badly and I figured everyone had written me off. Just curious.

 
You were the least likely to get votes from other townies and most likely would have voted for a scum.

So I redeemed myself? Yay!!! *fist pump*

[Ali bin Turban]

I can't leave that unchallenged. Of the last 10 games, the town has won 5 of them. Of those 5 town wins, I was part of 4 of them. I might not have always been successful in my lobby to kill low posters, but to say that it always leads to the town losing the game is patently false.

 

You should try checking how many players you pushed for low post count were actually scum. That's true testament of the effectiveness of this approach...and the problem is, it's bellow a random vote chance. If town followed that direction they would loose every time. The fact they didn't lose is because they didn't follow your pushes in wrong direction. You may defend "kill the lowest poster" strategy as something awesome but it does not change the fact that in a game as complicated as mafia, such simple methods are crap (want some other statistic, check how many times town wanted to lynch you for enforcing that strat ).

[Ali bin Turban]

@TW I must agree with CoD. It's mods duty to inform players about the roles (otherwise they'll spend entire D1 asking for the rules of each role). These are the game rules, they should be set in stone and should be known. Of course we don't have to know everything (like we never know what exact roles are in game) but putting tailor in play while it's not listed as a possible role, or for instance returning "innocent" for godfather when investigated by insane cop are mistakes.

 

That being said, everyone makes mistakes and it's not the end of the world. All it matters in the end is enjoyment and (despite those terrible inactivity issues) it definitely was here.

[Sister Midnight]

@TW I must agree with CoD. It's mods duty to inform players about the roles (otherwise they'll spend entire D1 asking for the rules of each role). These are the game rules, they should be set in stone and should be known. Of course we don't have to know everything (like we never know what exact roles are in game) but putting tailor in play while it's not listed as a possible role, or for instance returning "innocent" for godfather when investigated by insane cop are mistakes.
 
That being said, everyone makes mistakes and it's not the end of the world. All it matters in the end is enjoyment and (despite those terrible inactivity issues) it definitely was here.

I think it bears saying that despite having a lot of issues interfering with my early game play, I really enjoyed the game once my head was in it. On a personal note, I am seriously impressed with you, ALI! You got all assertive, and convincing in there and came so close to saving the town! Very freaking sexy, ALI, very sexy indeed!

[Ali bin Turban]

Thanks SM .

 

Personally I really like how Yehom and Rhizo have played. Especially Rhizo who's outplayed me with his pushing for KevinH (even though the moment he voted on me I knew he was a scum).