19 replies to this topic

[ccabal86]

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/14/africa/libya-migrant-auctions/index.html

It good to see old traditions are still well and alive in 2017!

[DeathMerchant]

Sad to see slavery making a comeback in Africa. Hopefully this is just an isolated, regional incident and that it doesn't spread to neighboring countries with barely functional governments.

[ccabal86]

Not very optimistic here. If I said to you in 2007 that 10 years later public slave auctions would be making a comeback, you would have called me an idiot. The sad fact is that large parts of the planet are deteriorating into unlivable hellholes, and no solution in sight. Arguably things will get only worse.

[DeathMerchant]

If I said to you in 2007 that 10 years later public slave auctions would be making a comeback, you would have called me an idiot. The sad fact is that large parts of the planet are deteriorating into unlivable hellholes, and no solution in sight.

Surprisingly, I would have said no such thing. Somewhere between 10-15 years prior, I realized how sex slavery and kidnappings were on the rise in undeveloped countries with poor governments. Couple together horrible economies, rising crime rates, government corruption, and a severely ineffective/underpaid police force, and you end up with a nesting ground for some form of slavery or servitude to gradually arise.

[Samus]

"ancient islamic tradition revived"

 

lol slave trade isn't specific to any religion.

 

don't forget where this all started

[HackSlash]

Here's what the UN has to say about it:

 

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/human-trafficking/global-report-on-trafficking-in-persons.html

 

Modern forms of slavery are everywhere.

 

Samus I have no idea what you are driving at, and I'm not about to put words in your mouth. 

However, you are right.  Slavery predates Islam, Christianity, Judaism, and even yes, the Transatlantic Slave Trade . 

It has been with us for thousands of year, ever since we started living in cities and developed large scale agriculture.   

[onbekende]

 

If I said to you in 2007 that 10 years later public slave auctions would be making a comeback, you would have called me an idiot. The sad fact is that large parts of the planet are deteriorating into unlivable hellholes, and no solution in sight.

Surprisingly, I would have said no such thing. Somewhere between 10-15 years prior, I realized how sex slavery and kidnappings were on the rise in undeveloped countries with poor governments. Couple together horrible economies, rising crime rates, government corruption, and a severely ineffective/underpaid police force, and you end up with a nesting ground for some form of slavery or servitude to gradually arise.

 

^^ truths have been written down.

[ccabal86]

Well then an article for you guys to read: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world

Of particular note is this paragraph:

“The Arab slave trade was most active in West Asia, North Africa, and Southeast Africa. In the early 20th century (post World War I), slavery was gradually outlawed and suppressed in Muslim lands, largely due to pressure exerted by Western nations such as Britain and France.[5] Among the last states to abolish slavery were Saudi Arabia and Yemen, which abolished slavery in 1962 under pressure from Britain; Oman in 1970, and Mauritania in 1905, 1981, and again in August 2007.[16] However, slavery claiming the sanction of Islam is documented presently in the predominantly Islamic countries of Chad, Mauritania, Niger, Mali, and Sudan.”

[brewersalliance]

i mean slavery was considered to be normal and not a human rights violation for thousands of years.  Slavery being bad is more of a new idea, so it doesn't shock me that this happened

[legoboyvdlp]

Good grief. Shame to see that.

[ccabal86]

i mean slavery was considered to be normal and not a human rights violation for thousands of years. Slavery being bad is more of a new idea, so it doesn't shock me that this happened

Yeah, but then again you would think as time goes on, we can leave the bad things behind us. Not the case apparently.

[Fermion]

I hate biased headlines, especially ones such as this one. This has nothing to do with the religion and everything to do with the chaotic economic and security situation in the area. It's sad that instead of focusing on the root cause of the problem as listed in the article itself (bad conditions in their own country, due to which they have to flee their homes) and the unstable conditions in the middle east due to, in part, progressive nations, we are still slinging mud at a religion followed by nearly 1/4th of the world's population.

[ccabal86]

I hate biased headlines, especially ones such as this one. This has nothing to do with the religion and everything to do with the chaotic economic and security situation in the area. It's sad that instead of focusing on the root cause of the problem as listed in the article itself (bad conditions in their own country, due to which they have to flee their homes) and the unstable conditions in the middle east due to, in part, progressive nations, we are still slinging mud at a religion followed by nearly 1/4th of the world's population.

You do realize that unstable contitions in the ME are in a large part caused by sectarianism? It’s not the whole story of course, but a pretty decent part of it.

And frankly I don’t give a damn how many people ascribe to a bad ideology, as long as it’s a bad ideology.

[Shahenshah]

Well then an article for you guys to read: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world

Of particular note is this paragraph:

“The Arab slave trade was most active in West Asia, North Africa, and Southeast Africa. In the early 20th century (post World War I), slavery was gradually outlawed and suppressed in Muslim lands, largely due to pressure exerted by Western nations such as Britain and France.[5] Among the last states to abolish slavery were Saudi Arabia and Yemen, which abolished slavery in 1962 under pressure from Britain; Oman in 1970, and Mauritania in 1905, 1981, and again in August 2007.[16] However, slavery claiming the sanction of Islam is documented presently in the predominantly Islamic countries of Chad, Mauritania, Niger, Mali, and Sudan.”

Wait, so the nations that ran colonial empires for centuries (in effect the biggest and most complex slavery instituitions) pressured others to give up the more crude form of slavery?

Not sure what to make of it.

-

The views of slavery in Islam are more complex. Islam emerged in the region where pagans, Christians and Jews all practiced slavery. The modern/colonial context of a slave is quite different from the one that is in Quran.

Quran mostly pushed for the rights of slaves or freedom of slaves for atonement of sins. While Quran did not completely abolish it at the time, it severely limited it and bought rights and conditions to slavery and encouraged freedom of slaves, this happened while the entire world was moving in opposite direction and continued to do so up untill last 50-60 years.

Context of slavery is quite different in Quran vs the colonial wester view, which was alot more disgraceful and something in line with practices and laws before Quran in that specific part of the world.

Following was some of the stuff that differentiates Quranic view of slaves 1400 years ago vs the colonial/western view of slavery 50/0 years ago:

- Food and clothing to be same as masters, a concept unheard of if you view slavery under context in which West practiced it.

- preserving dignity. Again, a concept unheard of in the concept your limited awareness

- had to be treated fairly and kindly.

- slaves had precedence in some matters over free men.

- slave may buy his own freedom.

- slavery had no concept of "race" as opposed western/colonial instituitions where race was the critical factor and where non whites were essentially considered to be animals and put even in zoos to be displayed.

While Quran did not completely abolish slavery at the time and context, but it blocked almost all ways of enslaving slaves, encouraged their freedom, infact made it a duty to do so (before that, practically there was nil chance you'd be ever free or have respect or dignity if you end up being a slave). Some of the first converts to Islam were slaves, infact one of the reasons they converted were they were getting the most rights as slaves vs any where else during that time. Slaves were practicallyembers of house holds,any served as generals, some even served as Emirs. So the whole concept of it is quite different and nuanced vs the more contemporary view established as pracited by west where slavery was driven by racism and the rights were limited to actually nothing.
--

Biyong or selling of slaves as mentioned in the article is actually prohibited, but obviously I didn't expect you to carry out that research for us. I'm sure you'll now come find, nitpick some random example or something out of context to justify your believe. I'm sure if we were in 1850, you'd be able to tell us how you've read a some random stuff somewhere that justify all blacks are to be treated as slaves and animals.


Obviously, I can link all of the above,, but your entire view on Islam is so nuanced, biased and out of context, that it's pointless. If you were looking to find more contextual views, you would have, I'm sure you're intelligent enough to do, but you chose not to and came up with a headline indicating you were being intentionally obtuse.

The fact your headline mentioned "Ancient Islamic tradition" proves your bias as pointed out by other posters.
Slavery is a practice not limited to a place or religion or one tradition, but you made it with the head line. Every kid who has read history up to highschool can deduce this, as long as your thinking isn't too narrow.

Anyway, there is absolutely no space for slavery today, doesn't matter where you are from or what you believe. If anyone tells you it doesn't exists today in every country or economy, then you're a fool.

[Shahenshah]

I hate biased headlines, especially ones such as this one. This has nothing to do with the religion and everything to do with the chaotic economic and security situation in the area. It's sad that instead of focusing on the root cause of the problem as listed in the article itself (bad conditions in their own country, due to which they have to flee their homes) and the unstable conditions in the middle east due to, in part, progressive nations, we are still slinging mud at a religion followed by nearly 1/4th of the world's population.

You do realize that unstable contitions in the ME are in a large part caused by sectarianism? It’s not the whole story of course, but a pretty decent part of it.

Sectarianism in ME is practically driven by Politics. The original secterian divide was also political in nature in regards to political leadership of the emerging empire and today also it's primarily driven by Politics.

Politics in ME has alot to do with the politics itself and all things that divide politics, religion is merely a tool.


So, you cannot take secterianism in isolation in ME of everything else. Dude, you practically know nothing other skimming stuff that you read on Wikipedia or some tilted blogs.

[Imran Ehsan]

Wait, so the nations that ran colonial empires for centuries (in effect the biggest and most complex slavery instituitions) pressured others to give up the more crude form of slavery?

 

I had a good long laugh about this after reading ccabals claims as well. 

[ccabal86]

 

Well then an article for you guys to read: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world

Of particular note is this paragraph:

“The Arab slave trade was most active in West Asia, North Africa, and Southeast Africa. In the early 20th century (post World War I), slavery was gradually outlawed and suppressed in Muslim lands, largely due to pressure exerted by Western nations such as Britain and France.[5] Among the last states to abolish slavery were Saudi Arabia and Yemen, which abolished slavery in 1962 under pressure from Britain; Oman in 1970, and Mauritania in 1905, 1981, and again in August 2007.[16] However, slavery claiming the sanction of Islam is documented presently in the predominantly Islamic countries of Chad, Mauritania, Niger, Mali, and Sudan.”

Wait, so the nations that ran colonial empires for centuries (in effect the biggest and most complex slavery instituitions) pressured others to give up the more crude form of slavery?

Not sure what to make of it.

-

The views of slavery in Islam are more complex. Islam emerged in the region where pagans, Christians and Jews all practiced slavery. The modern/colonial context of a slave is quite different from the one that is in Quran.

Quran mostly pushed for the rights of slaves or freedom of slaves for atonement of sins. While Quran did not completely abolish it at the time, it severely limited it and bought rights and conditions to slavery and encouraged freedom of slaves, this happened while the entire world was moving in opposite direction and continued to do so up untill last 50-60 years.

Context of slavery is quite different in Quran vs the colonial wester view, which was alot more disgraceful and something in line with practices and laws before Quran in that specific part of the world.

Following was some of the stuff that differentiates Quranic view of slaves 1400 years ago vs the colonial/western view of slavery 50/0 years ago:

- Food and clothing to be same as masters, a concept unheard of if you view slavery under context in which West practiced it.

- preserving dignity. Again, a concept unheard of in the concept your limited awareness

- had to be treated fairly and kindly.

- slaves had precedence in some matters over free men.

- slave may buy his own freedom.

- slavery had no concept of "race" as opposed western/colonial instituitions where race was the critical factor and where non whites were essentially considered to be animals and put even in zoos to be displayed.

While Quran did not completely abolish slavery at the time and context, but it blocked almost all ways of enslaving slaves, encouraged their freedom, infact made it a duty to do so (before that, practically there was nil chance you'd be ever free or have respect or dignity if you end up being a slave). Some of the first converts to Islam were slaves, infact one of the reasons they converted were they were getting the most rights as slaves vs any where else during that time. Slaves were practicallyembers of house holds,any served as generals, some even served as Emirs. So the whole concept of it is quite different and nuanced vs the more contemporary view established as pracited by west where slavery was driven by racism and the rights were limited to actually nothing.
--

Biyong or selling of slaves as mentioned in the article is actually prohibited, but obviously I didn't expect you to carry out that research for us. I'm sure you'll now come find, nitpick some random example or something out of context to justify your believe. I'm sure if we were in 1850, you'd be able to tell us how you've read a some random stuff somewhere that justify all blacks are to be treated as slaves and animals.


Obviously, I can link all of the above,, but your entire view on Islam is so nuanced, biased and out of context, that it's pointless. If you were looking to find more contextual views, you would have, I'm sure you're intelligent enough to do, but you chose not to and came up with a headline indicating you were being intentionally obtuse.

The fact your headline mentioned "Ancient Islamic tradition" proves your bias as pointed out by other posters.
Slavery is a practice not limited to a place or religion or one tradition, but you made it with the head line. Every kid who has read history up to highschool can deduce this, as long as your thinking isn't too narrow.

Anyway, there is absolutely no space for slavery today, doesn't matter where you are from or what you believe. If anyone tells you it doesn't exists today in every country or economy, then you're a fool.

 

 

Whenever we come to this topic, your main arguments boil down to:

 

1. How progressive Islam was at its inception compared to other Abrahamic religions
2. Evil colonialism

But the core problem with these arguments is this:

 

1: Whatever was 1400 years ago, is of absolutely no concern when measuring the merit of ideas in the context of TODAY. The problem with Islam is that it is based on a book which is claimed to be: A) the FINAL and EXACT dictate of God, B ) The entire Islamic jurisprudence is based on it.

 

The bottom line is that no matter how progressive an idea is, after 1400 years, it will be hopelessly reactionary. Of course, since you need to stick with the "Final Word" story, you will have to do impossible semantics gymnastics if you ever wish to justify a legal system that's not for a 6th century tribe. But whatever you do will always have your terrorists and your slavers finding easy justification for their actions from your untouchable holy text, and you can't even refute their arguments properly, as it would imply that maybe said text is not the word of God, but rather man made.

 

2: A fair share of horrible things happened in relation to Colonialism. However it has to be conceded that the Conquests and subsequent Colonialism served as vectors for some ideas that eventually led to:

 

1. The international system we know today
2. The basics of a political system that is prevalent in most countries
3. Basics of a legal system that is prevalent in most principles
4. The modern financial system
5. Global trade
6. The prevalence of scientific thought and method

It came at a heavy cost, but it undeniably ushered in a new age. The world became more unified as a result

[ccabal86]

 

 

I hate biased headlines, especially ones such as this one. This has nothing to do with the religion and everything to do with the chaotic economic and security situation in the area. It's sad that instead of focusing on the root cause of the problem as listed in the article itself (bad conditions in their own country, due to which they have to flee their homes) and the unstable conditions in the middle east due to, in part, progressive nations, we are still slinging mud at a religion followed by nearly 1/4th of the world's population.

You do realize that unstable contitions in the ME are in a large part caused by sectarianism? It’s not the whole story of course, but a pretty decent part of it.

Sectarianism in ME is practically driven by Politics. The original secterian divide was also political in nature in regards to political leadership of the emerging empire and today also it's primarily driven by Politics.

Politics in ME has alot to do with the politics itself and all things that divide politics, religion is merely a tool.


So, you cannot take secterianism in isolation in ME of everything else. Dude, you practically know nothing other skimming stuff that you read on Wikipedia or some tilted blogs.

 

 

Oh I read plenty books on various topics, I just like to reference Wikipedia as an easy source to support a statement here and there. But since you want something more, I highly recommend reading Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari for some very interesting perspectives on the development of humans, empires, ideologies and other things.

 

If you can even by it in Pakistan, not sure what's the official policy is on books by Jewish authors.

[Shahenshah]

I hate biased headlines, especially ones such as this one. This has nothing to do with the religion and everything to do with the chaotic economic and security situation in the area. It's sad that instead of focusing on the root cause of the problem as listed in the article itself (bad conditions in their own country, due to which they have to flee their homes) and the unstable conditions in the middle east due to, in part, progressive nations, we are still slinging mud at a religion followed by nearly 1/4th of the world's population.

You do realize that unstable contitions in the ME are in a large part caused by sectarianism? It’s not the whole story of course, but a pretty decent part of it.

Sectarianism in ME is practically driven by Politics. The original secterian divide was also political in nature in regards to political leadership of the emerging empire and today also it's primarily driven by Politics.

Politics in ME has alot to do with the politics itself and all things that divide politics, religion is merely a tool.


So, you cannot take secterianism in isolation in ME of everything else. Dude, you practically know nothing other skimming stuff that you read on Wikipedia or some tilted blogs.

Oh I read plenty books on various topics, I just like to reference Wikipedia as an easy source to support a statement here and there. But since you want something more, I highly recommend reading Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari for some very interesting perspectives on the development of humans, empires, ideologies and other things.

If you can even by it in Pakistan, not sure what's the official policy is on books by Jewish authors.

https://urdubazaronline.pk/Sapiens:%20A%20Brief%20History%20of%20Humankind

Once more, your preconceived notions betray your biasness.

I'll answer the rest later, in a wedding(not mine) and you may not know this, bit in Pakistan that's a whole week of affairs, ceremonies, events, dancing, eating etc that I get confused and loose track of what's going on o/. That's the week of actual events, excluding months leading up to plans for each of the events. The absolute minimum you can go is 3 days, that's like the most basic. Funny thing, Islam encourages you to keep it simple, have 1 event and be done etc, but local traditions and cultures play a role, and you my friend, often tend to confuse them with religion.

[ccabal86]

https://urdubazaronline.pk/Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind

Once more, your preconceived notions betray your biasness.

I'll answer the rest later, in a wedding(not mine) and you may not know this, bit in Pakistan that's a whole week of affairs, ceremonies, events, dancing, eating etc that I get confused and loose track of what's going on o/. That's the week of actual events, excluding months leading up to plans for each of the events. The absolute minimum you can go is 3 days, that's like the most basic. Funny thing, Islam encourages you to keep it simple, have 1 event and be done etc, but local traditions and cultures play a role, and you my friend, often tend to confuse them with religion.

Didn't say you CAN'T buy it in Pakistan, I said I had my DOUBTS. Glad that I was proven wrong in this case, because it's a fact that not all opinions are allowed to see the light of day there:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-40580196