48 replies to this topic

[DeathMerchant]

 

Obama care is probably the worst thing that has happened to this country in recent times. All the dumb people thought they were getting free healthcare when they voted for it, and now they realize the have to pay 200%, 300%, some even 400% more than what they were paying before. On top of that they have deductibles reaching several thousand, less coverage, higher premiums, and numerous other problems.

 

Thankfully this year, my healthcare coverage wasn't dropped, it only increased a few dollars. However, next year might be when my coverage gets dropped due more aspects of the law taking effect.

 

This is what I don't get about progressive liberals. Things have worked out pretty good for the past 200+ years since our Countries' founding, why start changing all this stuff that doesn't need to be fixed. Sure our healthcare system wasn't perfect, but it actually worked and costs were relatively manageable.

 

I get along just fine with the average Democrat or Liberal. But the second some extremist starts telling me how we need to revert to a Communist/Socialist system so a small % of the population can get free stuff and have Big Brother take of you. Then I tell them the needs of the few don't outway the needs of the many. The majority of Americans are middle class, employed, reasonable human beings. Why should the majority of us go broke just so a couple individuals can have their 'ideal' socialist paradise?

 

Some may call me harsh but I work for a living and will do whatever it takes to support my family and those I care about. Even if it means fighting and dying for the American dream of free enterprise and Capitalism.

 

I think you're mixing up socialism with something else. Because socialism advocates economic equality, it's capitalism that advocates a small percentage of the population having most of the stuff.

 

Capitalism in it's current form needs to be reevaluated. There is no chance of a "Utopian socialist system" right now, simply due to the fact that human nature won't allow, but we can strive to allow for a more equal capitalist system(I know, equality and capitalism in the same sentence, the horror )

 

Things have not worked out that well for you, things have been on the decline since a private corporation took control of your currency, and was worsened by Reagan. Capitalism has worsened your county, my country, and all countries. Because all countries on this planet are capitalist, even those that claim to be "communist".

 

These Democrats that are in office are not Liberals(they're not even american liberals), they are conservatives. Conservatives that run for private corporations. In terms of this issue, it would have been better to vote for Romney(a sentence I never thought I'd say), because he wouldn't have been able to pass this plan off as "liberal" like Obama did.

 

I don't know how to even respond to half of this... Perhaps that way of thought works in Canada. But here in America, Capitalism makes everyone money, not just a specific elite few. You have the chance to succeed, if you give it your all and almost everyone prospers from it. True Socialism just makes everyone poor and forces them to rely on the Government for their needs.

 

Plan 1 (Capitalism)

Get up in the morning

Go to work

Make a good living for myself

Buy things with said $ and pay bills

Put extra $ into savings

Enjoy my day and repeat process

 

Plan 2 (Socialism)

Get up in the morning

Go to work at State operated facility

Work long hours for minimal pay

Buy a couple necessities and pay bills

Put mere pennies away into savings, if I can even afford to do that

Hate my life because I will never be able to better myself and repeat process next morning

 

For me, and probably anyone else with sanity, I would choose Plan 1. Living in a free country where we have any option avliable to us regarding employment, freedom and liberty, equal rights, success based on performance, control over our finances, low taxes, etc...

 

I can understand having a balance between socialist and conservative ideals, thats what makes up America. But having a socialist economy and government would be bad for everyone. Extremist policies are never good and would only harm this country. The majority of America enjoys having a mixed system and wants to keep it that way. Most of us we're happy with the way things were before Obama showed up and turned this country upside down. So if anything, our country needs to take a step or two back over towards the conservative side. Because we are heading way to far off the middle ground of the political spectrum, and into the socialism side of things.

 

America isn't broken and never has been broken. So why alter things which are going to kill the very ideals of this country?

[Elendil]

Your Plan 2 describes every American fast-food worker and other minimum wage worker except for the line "state run" should be "corporate monopoly run"

[Fox Fire]

My opinion....

Our government sucks. Despite the program or law, they'll always piss you off.

[Montosh]

Your Plan 2 describes every American fast-food worker and other minimum wage worker except for the line "state run" should be "corporate monopoly run"

This

[Lysistrata]

Okay you guys in Canada... listen up.

 

The minimum wage jobs you are talking about are not long term employment for anyone.

You work your way out, or work your way up. I have not had a minimum wage gig since I was 19. How about you?

The "protests" you hear about are not protested by the people working the jobs.

It's the SEIU that are paying their members to show up with signs and rant.

The unions are getting killed and need a new source of dues to stuff their pockets with.

So they exploit the weakest among us to further their own exsistance.

 

They are the lowest scum you can scrape off the dumpster floor... true parasites.

[president hardin]

 

well im definitely for obamacare. i work really hard and pay taxes, but my company does not offer health care. before obamacare even came around, i searched for independent health care and it was way overpriced and even if it wasnt the co pay was enormous. now i did enroll in obamacare this month and i have found that i CAN have healthcare/dental care for a decent price. im very very excited to have insurance now. i went to the hospital a few years ago and it cost me $120,000. It is a debt that i am still paying off today..just imagine if i had insurance back then

 

so while it might not be for everyone, if you DON'T have insurance there is NO reason not to get it thanks for lettin me participate!

Oh God... Kathleen Sebelius has invaded the IRON forum to post bogus propaganda... can you stoop any lower woman?

 

 

i'm back..and kathleen would like you to know that you too can join obama care by acting now also ma doctor visits are $10 instead of $100 without insurance. WOOHOOO!

[Zipflash]

No the Aforddable Care Act will not work and it is a complete disaster.  The person in this thread that seems the most knowledgeable about the free market and voluntarism is Iron Helix.  The first post he made is by far the nail in the coffin as he goes into the philosphical reasoning for why it is immoral, and a defunct ideology whose premise is based upon force.

 

With nearly every single person I talk to they tell me that they are "socially liberal and fiscally conservative."  So I ask them, "currently the United States has a GDP of $15 trillion dollars and we currently have anywhere from $60-130 trillion of unfunded libabilities in only Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, depending on how you calculate it, what should be cut?"

 

You see people want everyone to be taken care of, but they don't personally want to make the decision to do something for their neighbor.  They want the government to steal money from people and take care of those that stuggle so they don't have to think about them.    

 

For all you guys that suggest the United States should cut military and place the money into social programs; the 2013 US military budget was $673 billion.  That doesn't even come close to the amount of money that is needed.  The only reason why the United States hasn't completely collapsed is because the US has a printing press, borrows money from China, and keeps interest rates at %0 (a discussion certainly for another thread).  The rest of these so called "civilized" countries with Universal Health Care are in the same boat; they all run huge defecits.  Now these other countries did not at one time have the status of world reserve currency so their boat happens to not have as many wholes in it, but none of the western countries are in good shape economically.  So again what do you want to have cut?  People want nothing to be cut.  People want to be given free stuff; that is what these social programs end up boiling down to, and that is why these are the only type of politicians that get elected. 

 

"When the public discovers they can vote themselves money from the public treasury, the [American] experiment will be over"-Tocqueville 1838

 

For the arguements that are being made that healthcare is so much more effective in Canada or Great Britain.  How do you know they are more effective?  How do you know that you are paying the marekt cost for the services that are being rendered to you?  How do you know that you are recieveing the best quality care?  You don't know.  The costs are subsidized equally across those that participate in the tax system so the actual cost for examinations and radiology is unknown because they are not being bought by single consumers.  Some prices might be too high, and some prices might be too low, but you don't know if you have a price effective system because the items that are too expensive become covered by those that are too low.  This might sound ideal, but as a result of a loss of importance on price you have also loss of importance on quality.  The stories about people leaving Canada and coming to the United States is not propaganda.  I live in Southeastern Michigan and work in Detroit and we have people coming over from Canada often due to the huge problems of government bearaucracy in the Canadian healthcare system.   

 

You see people do not want only want cheap stuff.  There is a reason why people choose to save their money and invest in higher quality services.  This is no different in healthcare.  The subsidized healthcare system does provide services to everyone, but at what cost?  At a cost to quality.  So who cares if everyone gets covered if the services rendered are terrible.

 

Yes the United States Health Care system is defunct.  A good analysis of it's current state can already be found in Iron Helix's post, but the United States at one time was the pinnacle of success for countries.  The U.S. manufactured nearly all of the products for the world, paid the highest prices, and had the largest middle-class in the history of the world.  There is a reason why so many immigrants use to choose the US even when we had NO social programs; it's because they had the opportunity for success based on their own merit.  The US provided the best chance for people to mobilize socially because we kept taxes low, had a currency tied to gold, and the people prospered.  Take a look at the United States Health Care system before 1960.  It didn't exist.  People weren't dying on the streets.  Most people didn't even have to have insurance, and those that did had catastrophic insurance that cost them $20 a year! 

[DeathMerchant]

Excellent explanation Zipflash. I can tell you've done some sound research.

[Lysistrata]

Push the quote button on the Zipflash post and then type "This ^^^" under it.

There is not enough money to steal that can take care of everyone's everything.

When the world gets tired of our indulgence and we lose our world reserve statis... we'll crash overnight.

Wake up and save your future.