Jump to content

Welcome to IRON Forums Website
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

What are your thoughts on Obama-care?


  • Please log in to reply
48 replies to this topic

#21
Lysistrata

Lysistrata

    IRONclad

  • BR|Member
  • 7,133 posts
  • Resources:
  • CN Nation ID:391465
  • Souls Baptized:1,724,782
  • Squadron:Kilo

Red state Democrats will all be crushed.

 

Alaska

Arkansas

Louisiana

Montana

North Carolina

South Dakota

West Virginia

 

That alone will flip the Senate... there will be no saving these. They all voted for this law and their states are solidly opposed.

Others are seriously in danger as well. Like Colorado, New Hampshire, and Minnesota where that moron Franken stole the seat.

 

The Christie thing was him doing his job for New Jersey. That storm ravaged the coast and he needed all the help he could get.

Romney and McCain were butchered by the far right and still got the nomination... as will Chris Christie.

The difference will be in Chris himself... he doesn't allow anyone to define him the way they did with John and Mitt.

McCain was labeled the old guy and Romney was labeled the rich guy you love to hate.

Christie will be liked for his individualism, personality, and "don't fuck with me... or my country" attitude.


Woke (adj.)

A state of awareness only achieved by those dumb enough

to find injustice in everything except their own behavior.


Awards Bar:

Users Awards

#22
Montosh

Montosh

    Head of the Loser Party

  • NM⎪Inactive
  • 4,628 posts
  • Resources:
  • CN Nation ID:510117
  • Souls Baptized:Not enough
  • Squadron:Foreign Diplomat

 

Hope none of you gets any disease that is expensive to treat.

 

That is the express purpose of health insurance.  

 

 

Trust me, when you need some medical work done, you can get it, almost entirely free. Sure, you might have to wait a while longer than in the US, but you also don't need to pay thousands of dollars.

 

Is it really free?  Is it not being paid for in taxes?  According to this, the amount spent on Canadian Health Care is equivalent to two thirds of all Canadian income tax.  It may be free for you if you're not paying taxes, but otherwise, I can't see how it can be claimed to be free.  

 

 

Of course it's not "free". Roads and Bridges aren't "free". The military isn't "free". Every goverment service is paid through taxes, but at least we're not being screwed over by corporations(as much anyway).

 

That article seems kinda BS to me. We've had this system since the 80s, and our country hasn't collapsed due to "socialism".


Posted Image


Former --->Posted Image


[img]http://s3-media1.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/UfkQRi_NE-ZEDIqcsG9c4A/ms.jpg[/img] Join the Lobster Party Today! [img]http://s3-media1.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/UfkQRi_NE-ZEDIqcsG9c4A/ms.jpg[/img]


Posted Image


Posted Image


Spoiler

Awards Bar:

Users Awards

#23
Iron Helix

Iron Helix

    Baptized

  • NM⎪Inactive
  • 956 posts
  • Resources:
  • CN Nation ID:039810
  • Souls Baptized:5,683,682
  • Squadron:Kilo
 

 

Well tbh, US spends most on its HC system yet it is below average (comparatively speaking). And it is "free" in terms of actual contribution versus cost of treatment, with the cost of contribution lower to that in the US on top of it.

 

Yes the US does spend more.  Canadian healthcare still isn't free.  By the standard of contribution vs cost of treatment, insurance can likewise be claimed to be "free" to the individual who needs it.  
 

 

 

 

Hope none of you gets any disease that is expensive to treat.

 

That is the express purpose of health insurance.  

 

 

Trust me, when you need some medical work done, you can get it, almost entirely free. Sure, you might have to wait a while longer than in the US, but you also don't need to pay thousands of dollars.

 

Is it really free?  Is it not being paid for in taxes?  According to this, the amount spent on Canadian Health Care is equivalent to two thirds of all Canadian income tax.  It may be free for you if you're not paying taxes, but otherwise, I can't see how it can be claimed to be free.  

 

 

Of course it's not "free". Roads and Bridges aren't "free". The military isn't "free". Every goverment service is paid through taxes, but at least we're not being screwed over by corporations(as much anyway).

 

That article seems kinda BS to me. We've had this system since the 80s, and our country hasn't collapsed due to "socialism".

 

 

I just provided that link as a source, not that I necessarily agree with it.  So the question is do you think that the claim that the amount spent on healthcare is equivalent to 2/3rds of income tax is incorrect?  

 

I know the rest of what I say is going to ruffle some feathers.

 

So healthcare is not free.  

Road and bridges aren't free.

The military isn't free.

How are these being paid?

Through force.

Through the aggressive coercion of taxation and violence of the state.

 

BTW, I detest the use of the moniker "government services".  A waiter at a restaurant serves me.  My internet provider serves me.  My interaction with them is voluntary and solicited by me.  The government is quite the opposite.  The government violates the non-aggression principle.  My internet provider does not.

 

The dichotomy of government or corporations is a false one for a couple of reasons.  Corporations are legal entities granted protection by the state.  The actions of corporations within a state system exist because a state allows it.  Without the state, and the legal framework surrounding its corporate laws, the liability of the corporation cannot be limited, and the influence of corporate power over the state is nonexistent.  Almost always when people complain about corporations "screwing people", it's when they are abusing some aspect of the state. So when "corporations screw you over", I would argue it is because the state is complicit in the act.

 

More to the topic on hand, could a state-controlled system be more effective than what currently exists in the United States? Quite possibly.  First we should ask why is it that American medical costs are increasing so dramatically, beyond normal inflation?  Why is it that medical care has become expensive, whereas other aspects of the economy have generally become cheaper (such as electronics)? I would argue a few reasons, most of which relates to government intervention through subsidies and protectionism.  With both state funded medicare/medicaid as well as employer funded insurance (which is heavily subsidized by the government), the consumer/patient is far less likely to discriminate with healthcare based on cost.  When someone else is paying for a person's care, there's every incentive for that person to spend a lot of money on treatments or drugs that, while much more expensive, may only be marginally more effective, and there's every incentive for healthcare institutions to charge for them.  Employers have trouble fighting this largely due to privacy regarding one's medical care/history.  The state run institutions (medicare/medicaid) are largely designed to cater to specific voting blocks (the elderly and poor respectively) and as such are explicitly designed to pay for such care.  They do not have the same economic requirements of a business, but rather need to use these premium medical benefits and lower deductibles as incentives for voting a certain way (as it is neither party wishes to challenge the situation, so it happens regardless of who gets into office).  Not to leave out the corporations, they too get in on the action through lobbying efforts (of Big Pharma) to have state funded medical care to purchase name brand products over generics (link).  In that same note, they have lobbied to restrict imports of cheaper generics, forcing people to buy them online illegally or pay exorbitant prices.  The IP/patent monopolies enjoyed by Big Pharma further contribute in this way. Past lobbying efforts on the part of trade and professional associations, like the AMA also contribute to rising costs, who have worked to limit the amount of professional medical practitioners through licensing under the guise of patient safety.  Another consideration is that Americans in general make poorer lifestyle choices than other first world nations, obesity being the most obvious.  This drives up the need for medical care, and subsequently the cost as well.  The result is that the United States has a mixture of corporate dominated health care along with state funded healthcare (medicare/medicaid).  It leaves much to be desired, and I certainly would not defend it.   

 

From this perspective a state-controlled system could potentially be seen to be an improvement if it adequately dealt with some of the abuse that takes place.  But I wouldn't count on it considering how embedded government subsidized cronyism is.  It's just more likely to be perpetuated. With that being said, I should add I'm sympathetic towards healthcare.  For example, I think healthcare would be a much better expenditure of tax money than the military.  However, that does not mean that I would support it.

 

If the government were not using tax income (force/violence) to provide the service, and the service was paid for through voluntary payment of customers, I may support it, but then that wouldn't be the action of a government, but of a business.  So I just simply ask "If such a system is so good, why should it need to be forced upon its customers?"  Because, if a service is good and desired by people, it needn't be implemented by force.

 

On top of this, when you have state healthcare, the reason for health laws becomes more transparent.  Taxing the obese, taxing smokers, taxing lifestyle choices all become necessary unless the burden is transferred to those who do not make poor life choices.  Further to that point, you get the young paying more than they would otherwise to subsidize the elderly.  You get men subsidizing services they would never have a requirement for (e.g. maternity care).  All through force.

 

So when you dismissively say "Of course it's not  'free'."  To me, you're just arguing my point. 

 

Beyond this, I'm not really interested in further consequentialist arguments if it the arguments being made are violating my ethical principles.


Edited by Iron Helix, 02 December 2013 - 08:53 AM.


Awards Bar:

Users Awards

#24
Lysistrata

Lysistrata

    IRONclad

  • BR|Member
  • 7,133 posts
  • Resources:
  • CN Nation ID:391465
  • Souls Baptized:1,724,782
  • Squadron:Kilo

 

I know the rest of what I say is going to ruffle some feathers.

No feathers ruffled here. This post was one wall of text I didn't mind reading at all.

I'll buy you a drink anytime my friend.


Woke (adj.)

A state of awareness only achieved by those dumb enough

to find injustice in everything except their own behavior.


Awards Bar:

Users Awards

#25
Lysistrata

Lysistrata

    IRONclad

  • BR|Member
  • 7,133 posts
  • Resources:
  • CN Nation ID:391465
  • Souls Baptized:1,724,782
  • Squadron:Kilo

If any of you watch Bill O'Reilly on Fox News... there is a segment called "Watter's World" with Jesse Watters.

 

Tonight's show Jesse was in Canada interviewing people about the healthcare system there.

It was telling and quite entertaining for anyone that wants to tune in for the rerun at 8PT/11ET.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx0KERW_Ks0


Edited by Lysistrata, 03 December 2013 - 02:36 AM.

Woke (adj.)

A state of awareness only achieved by those dumb enough

to find injustice in everything except their own behavior.


Awards Bar:

Users Awards

#26
Lysistrata

Lysistrata

    IRONclad

  • BR|Member
  • 7,133 posts
  • Resources:
  • CN Nation ID:391465
  • Souls Baptized:1,724,782
  • Squadron:Kilo

Hey Montosh... I found the YouTube clip up there.

I would like to hear your response to the report of Canadian Healthcare.

At the very end Jesse says if you need chemo for cancer... you wait in line.

Not true? If he's lying you need to demand a retraction from Fox because they are fanatical about honest reporting.


Woke (adj.)

A state of awareness only achieved by those dumb enough

to find injustice in everything except their own behavior.


Awards Bar:

Users Awards

#27
Montosh

Montosh

    Head of the Loser Party

  • NM⎪Inactive
  • 4,628 posts
  • Resources:
  • CN Nation ID:510117
  • Souls Baptized:Not enough
  • Squadron:Foreign Diplomat

Hey Montosh... I found the YouTube clip up there.

I would like to hear your response to the report of Canadian Healthcare.

At the very end Jesse says if you need chemo for cancer... you wait in line.

Not true? If he's lying you need to demand a retraction from Fox because they are fanatical about honest reporting.

 

You linked Bill O'Reilly.... Of course you wait in line for chemo, you don't wait weeks or months. I've known a few people who have had cancer, they were treated almost immediately. 


Posted Image


Former --->Posted Image


[img]http://s3-media1.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/UfkQRi_NE-ZEDIqcsG9c4A/ms.jpg[/img] Join the Lobster Party Today! [img]http://s3-media1.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/UfkQRi_NE-ZEDIqcsG9c4A/ms.jpg[/img]


Posted Image


Posted Image


Spoiler

Awards Bar:

Users Awards

#28
Elendil

Elendil

    Tempered IRON

  • NM⎪Inactive
  • 1,001 posts
  • Resources:
  • CN Nation ID:468584
  • Souls Baptized:593,208
  • Squadron:Foxtrot

As a Canadian, I remain dumbfounded that you Yanks don't join the rest of the civilized world and get universal single-payer health care. Obama care looks like a half-hearted step in the right direction but it still keeps the useless insurance companies in the loop.

 

And for those silly idealogues who parrot the line that "socialism never works" how do you explain that Canadian health-care, government run, costs less as a percentage of GDP than the private American system? Much less. And everyone is covered, no exception.

 

Sure, our system is not perfect but the people would never change to an American style system. Even to hint at privatization of health-care is suicide for a politician here. Just ask former Conservative leader Stockwell Day.


I promise you nothing but blood, sweat, tears and maybe a nice hot cuppa.

Awards Bar:

Users Awards

#29
DeathMerchant

DeathMerchant

    IRONclad

  • Military - Radar Leadership
  • 6,498 posts
  • Resources:
  • CN Nation ID:156811
  • Squadron:Kilo

Obama care is probably the worst thing that has happened to this country in recent times. All the dumb people thought they were getting free healthcare when they voted for it, and now they realize the have to pay 200%, 300%, some even 400% more than what they were paying before. On top of that they have deductibles reaching several thousand, less coverage, higher premiums, and numerous other problems.

 

Thankfully this year, my healthcare coverage wasn't dropped, it only increased a few dollars. However, next year might be when my coverage gets dropped due more aspects of the law taking effect.

 

This is what I don't get about progressive liberals. Things have worked out pretty good for the past 200+ years since our Countries' founding, why start changing all this stuff that doesn't need to be fixed. Sure our healthcare system wasn't perfect, but it actually worked and costs were relatively manageable.

 

I get along just fine with the average Democrat or Liberal. But the second some extremist starts telling me how we need to revert to a Communist/Socialist system so a small % of the population can get free stuff and have Big Brother take of you. Then I tell them the needs of the few don't outway the needs of the many. The majority of Americans are middle class, employed, reasonable human beings. Why should the majority of us go broke just so a couple individuals can have their 'ideal' socialist paradise?

 

Some may call me harsh but I work for a living and will do whatever it takes to support my family and those I care about. Even if it means fighting and dying for the American dream of free enterprise and Capitalism.


The idea of war is not to die for your country, it's to make the enemy die for his.

 

Former Member of the VOC

 

IRON STATS Wars Fought: 13 POWs Taken: 2 Nations ZIed: 2 Aid Given: $341 Million

Recruits: 7 Alliances Fought: LSF, Sparta, VE, Umbrella, DBDC, STA

Alliance Seniority: 2,595 Days Soldier Casualties: 867,426 Att + 2,123,326 Def = 2,990,752


Awards Bar:

Users Awards

#30
president hardin

president hardin

    Freshly IRONed

  • Foreign Diplomat
  • 21 posts
  • Resources:
  • CN Nation ID:333948
  • Squadron:Foreign Diplomat

well im definitely for obamacare. i work really hard and pay taxes, but my company does not offer health care. before obamacare even came around, i searched for independent health care and it was way overpriced and even if it wasnt the co pay was enormous. now i did enroll in obamacare this month and i have found that i CAN have healthcare/dental care for a decent price. im very very excited to have insurance now. i went to the hospital a few years ago and it cost me $120,000. It is a debt that i am still paying off today..just imagine if i had insurance back then :P

 

so while it might not be for everyone, if you DON'T have insurance there is NO reason not to get it :) thanks for lettin me participate!


newodn_zpsca4e8de8.jpg

 

hardin_zps918e4b97.png


#31
onbekende

onbekende

    IRON King/Queen of Spam!!!

  • Special Betsy Mask
  • 26,898 posts
  • Resources:
  • CN Nation ID:012501
  • Squadron:Foreign Diplomat

MAH MONAY

 

 

- american person, interviewed by Fox

 

 

It isn't cause YOUR mentallity is "against" this deal, that +50% of americans is against it. Then again, "american dream" YAH!


Emperor of the Benelux
Founder of the Commonwealth of Planets
Founder and CEO of JF

2021-03-21-sig.jpg


Awards Bar:

Users Awards

#32
Lysistrata

Lysistrata

    IRONclad

  • BR|Member
  • 7,133 posts
  • Resources:
  • CN Nation ID:391465
  • Souls Baptized:1,724,782
  • Squadron:Kilo

 

Some may call me harsh but I work for a living and will do whatever it takes to support my family and those I care about. Even if it means fighting and dying for the American dream of free enterprise and Capitalism.

I don't call you harsh... I call you someone I would vote for. Let me know if you ever come to Las Vegas Sir.


Woke (adj.)

A state of awareness only achieved by those dumb enough

to find injustice in everything except their own behavior.


Awards Bar:

Users Awards

#33
Lysistrata

Lysistrata

    IRONclad

  • BR|Member
  • 7,133 posts
  • Resources:
  • CN Nation ID:391465
  • Souls Baptized:1,724,782
  • Squadron:Kilo

well im definitely for obamacare. i work really hard and pay taxes, but my company does not offer health care. before obamacare even came around, i searched for independent health care and it was way overpriced and even if it wasnt the co pay was enormous. now i did enroll in obamacare this month and i have found that i CAN have healthcare/dental care for a decent price. im very very excited to have insurance now. i went to the hospital a few years ago and it cost me $120,000. It is a debt that i am still paying off today..just imagine if i had insurance back then :P

 

so while it might not be for everyone, if you DON'T have insurance there is NO reason not to get it :) thanks for lettin me participate!

Oh God... Kathleen Sebelius has invaded the IRON forum to post bogus propaganda... can you stoop any lower woman?


Woke (adj.)

A state of awareness only achieved by those dumb enough

to find injustice in everything except their own behavior.


Awards Bar:

Users Awards

#34
DeathMerchant

DeathMerchant

    IRONclad

  • Military - Radar Leadership
  • 6,498 posts
  • Resources:
  • CN Nation ID:156811
  • Squadron:Kilo

 

 

Some may call me harsh but I work for a living and will do whatever it takes to support my family and those I care about. Even if it means fighting and dying for the American dream of free enterprise and Capitalism.

I don't call you harsh... I call you someone I would vote for. Let me know if you ever come to Las Vegas Sir.

 

Well thank you. Not sure about coming to Vegas. Gotta hold down the fort in the People's Socialist Republic of New York. I could move to another more freedom loving state, but I feel that would be giving up. I've lived in this state my entire life so I'll keep voting, hoping that my State Legislature will one day change.


The idea of war is not to die for your country, it's to make the enemy die for his.

 

Former Member of the VOC

 

IRON STATS Wars Fought: 13 POWs Taken: 2 Nations ZIed: 2 Aid Given: $341 Million

Recruits: 7 Alliances Fought: LSF, Sparta, VE, Umbrella, DBDC, STA

Alliance Seniority: 2,595 Days Soldier Casualties: 867,426 Att + 2,123,326 Def = 2,990,752


Awards Bar:

Users Awards

#35
Lysistrata

Lysistrata

    IRONclad

  • BR|Member
  • 7,133 posts
  • Resources:
  • CN Nation ID:391465
  • Souls Baptized:1,724,782
  • Squadron:Kilo

It's not the state that is so messed up... it's the city. There are many New Yorkers that remember what it took to build the USA.

I'm a history buff and it's a shame the morons running Education don't realize how important that is.


Woke (adj.)

A state of awareness only achieved by those dumb enough

to find injustice in everything except their own behavior.


Awards Bar:

Users Awards

#36
DeathMerchant

DeathMerchant

    IRONclad

  • Military - Radar Leadership
  • 6,498 posts
  • Resources:
  • CN Nation ID:156811
  • Squadron:Kilo
The southern part of the state definitely dictates what happens regarding laws, since it boasts a huge population. However the entire rest of the state is relatively conservative, but not nearly enough people make up western or northern NY to have much say in politics.

The idea of war is not to die for your country, it's to make the enemy die for his.

 

Former Member of the VOC

 

IRON STATS Wars Fought: 13 POWs Taken: 2 Nations ZIed: 2 Aid Given: $341 Million

Recruits: 7 Alliances Fought: LSF, Sparta, VE, Umbrella, DBDC, STA

Alliance Seniority: 2,595 Days Soldier Casualties: 867,426 Att + 2,123,326 Def = 2,990,752


Awards Bar:

Users Awards

#37
Rhizoctonia

Rhizoctonia

    Retired

  • NM|Former Member
  • 7,698 posts
  • Resources:
  • CN Nation ID:314185
  • Souls Baptized:7,436,130
  • Squadron:Foreign Diplomat

The southern part of the state definitely dictates what happens regarding laws, since it boasts a huge population. However the entire rest of the state is relatively conservative, but not nearly enough people make up western or northern NY to have much say in politics.

 

 

1.  That sucks you live in NY...couldn't stand living there with all the gun laws and ridiculous laws being put into place from bloomdouche.  I live in MD and can't stand our liberal views...they're bad enough...but I keep fighting

 

2.  That's MD as well (Like i stated).  17 of 24 counties in MD vote conservative...only 7 vote liberal...yet MD is always Liberal.  It's all from the inner city counties with larger population that really are the only ones that matter...like around Baltimore MD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Maryland,_2012


Posted Image

Former Government Of The East India Company(VOC)
Posted Image


Awards Bar:

Users Awards

#38
Montosh

Montosh

    Head of the Loser Party

  • NM⎪Inactive
  • 4,628 posts
  • Resources:
  • CN Nation ID:510117
  • Souls Baptized:Not enough
  • Squadron:Foreign Diplomat

Obama care is probably the worst thing that has happened to this country in recent times. All the dumb people thought they were getting free healthcare when they voted for it, and now they realize the have to pay 200%, 300%, some even 400% more than what they were paying before. On top of that they have deductibles reaching several thousand, less coverage, higher premiums, and numerous other problems.

 

Thankfully this year, my healthcare coverage wasn't dropped, it only increased a few dollars. However, next year might be when my coverage gets dropped due more aspects of the law taking effect.

 

This is what I don't get about progressive liberals. Things have worked out pretty good for the past 200+ years since our Countries' founding, why start changing all this stuff that doesn't need to be fixed. Sure our healthcare system wasn't perfect, but it actually worked and costs were relatively manageable.

 

I get along just fine with the average Democrat or Liberal. But the second some extremist starts telling me how we need to revert to a Communist/Socialist system so a small % of the population can get free stuff and have Big Brother take of you. Then I tell them the needs of the few don't outway the needs of the many. The majority of Americans are middle class, employed, reasonable human beings. Why should the majority of us go broke just so a couple individuals can have their 'ideal' socialist paradise?

 

Some may call me harsh but I work for a living and will do whatever it takes to support my family and those I care about. Even if it means fighting and dying for the American dream of free enterprise and Capitalism.

 

I think you're mixing up socialism with something else. Because socialism advocates economic equality, it's capitalism that advocates a small percentage of the population having most of the stuff.

 

Capitalism in it's current form needs to be reevaluated. There is no chance of a "Utopian socialist system" right now, simply due to the fact that human nature won't allow, but we can strive to allow for a more equal capitalist system(I know, equality and capitalism in the same sentence, the horror :P)

 

Things have not worked out that well for you, things have been on the decline since a private corporation took control of your currency, and was worsened by Reagan. Capitalism has worsened your county, my country, and all countries. Because all countries on this planet are capitalist, even those that claim to be "communist".

 

These Democrats that are in office are not Liberals(they're not even american liberals), they are conservatives. Conservatives that run for private corporations. In terms of this issue, it would have been better to vote for Romney(a sentence I never thought I'd say), because he wouldn't have been able to pass this plan off as "liberal" like Obama did.


Posted Image


Former --->Posted Image


[img]http://s3-media1.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/UfkQRi_NE-ZEDIqcsG9c4A/ms.jpg[/img] Join the Lobster Party Today! [img]http://s3-media1.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/UfkQRi_NE-ZEDIqcsG9c4A/ms.jpg[/img]


Posted Image


Posted Image


Spoiler

Awards Bar:

Users Awards

#39
Lysistrata

Lysistrata

    IRONclad

  • BR|Member
  • 7,133 posts
  • Resources:
  • CN Nation ID:391465
  • Souls Baptized:1,724,782
  • Squadron:Kilo

 

I think you're mixing up socialism with something else. Because socialism advocates economic equality, it's capitalism that advocates a small percentage of the population having most of the stuff.

 

Socialism advocates income redistribution. Socialists such as yourself, you guys keep changing what you call yourselves because people catch on sooner or later, believe in "spreading the wealth", which we call it... theft. It's actually spreading the misery. You can keep it.

Capitalism advocates prosperity. The population you refer to, keeps growing even though Socialists like yourself want to put abortion clinics on every corner... and everyone sick of the misery tries to get into the USA. We'll keep it.

 

Capitalism in it's current form needs to be reevaluated. Reevaluate your own government, we can take care of ours. There is no chance of a "Utopian socialist system" right now, thank god simply due to the fact that human nature won't allow, damn straight but we can strive to allow for a more equal capitalist system(I know, equality and capitalism in the same sentence, the horror :P) Good luck with that in Canada

 

Things have not worked out that well for you, I was doing great until Obama killed 4 out 5 auto dealerships I worked for things have been on the decline since a private corporation took control of your currency, The Federal Reserve? Richard Nixon took us off the gold standard years ago. Our problems are all on Obama... 85 billion dollars printed every month that keeps the stock market from correcting and they can never raise the interest rates where they need to be because our debt has ballooned to 17 trillion and we can't balance a budget to pay the bills if they did and was worsened by Reagan. Ronnie was the last great President, all the rest pale in comparison Capitalism has worsened your county, my country, and all countries. Because all countries on this planet are capitalist, even those that claim to be "communist". That makes no sense and impossible to determine... as in... there is not and never will be a "Socialist USA".

 

These Democrats that are in office are not Liberals(they're not even american liberals), they are conservatives. Conservatives that run for private corporations. In terms of this issue, it would have been better to vote for Romney(a sentence I never thought I'd say), because he wouldn't have been able to pass this plan off as "liberal" like Obama did. What??? That whole paragraph is... I don't know how to explain it without offending you. Romney ran for President a year ago. Obamacare was illegally passed and signed into law 2010. Obamacare is doomed. The whole thing is unconstitutional. You know how it went to the Supreme Court? Well many Conservatives believe John Roberts betrayed them when he ruled that the penalty is a "tax". In reality John Roberts sealed Obamacare's DOOM when it was ruled a tax. When Scott Brown was elected Senator of Mass. in late 2009, Obamacare was set to die. The only way to get it done was to pass the Senate bill. Obamacare is full of "Taxes". According to the U.S. Constitution... all taxes must originate in the House of Representatives. Obamacare was the sole creation of the U.S. Senate. Since no one can challenge an illegal tax until a tax has been levied... as soon as someone is hit with an Obamacare Tax... it's done. It's only a matter of time until all the taxes are deemed... UNCONSTITUTIONAL!

 

John Roberts will become an instant national hero. Done.

 


Woke (adj.)

A state of awareness only achieved by those dumb enough

to find injustice in everything except their own behavior.


Awards Bar:

Users Awards

#40
Iron Helix

Iron Helix

    Baptized

  • NM⎪Inactive
  • 956 posts
  • Resources:
  • CN Nation ID:039810
  • Souls Baptized:5,683,682
  • Squadron:Kilo

well im definitely for obamacare. i work really hard and pay taxes, but my company does not offer health care. before obamacare even came around, i searched for independent health care and it was way overpriced and even if it wasnt the co pay was enormous. now i did enroll in obamacare this month and i have found that i CAN have healthcare/dental care for a decent price. im very very excited to have insurance now. i went to the hospital a few years ago and it cost me $120,000. It is a debt that i am still paying off today..just imagine if i had insurance back then :P

 

so while it might not be for everyone, if you DON'T have insurance there is NO reason not to get it :) thanks for lettin me participate!

 

Sure there are reasons not to get it.  Since (I believe) there are no longer pre-existing conditions, I can simply pay the tax penalty and sign up for insurance when I expect to need healthcare.  Right now I'm paying $65 every two months ($32.5/mo) with Anthem Blue cross for their Basic 1000w/life (In California).  Now that the ACA is happening, new rates for someone like me are $200+ per month.  If it comes to that, I just won't pay it, since apparently I don't need to.

 

 

 

...

I think you're mixing up socialism with something else. Because socialism advocates economic equality, it's capitalism that advocates a small percentage of the population having most of the stuff.

 

Capitalism in it's current form needs to be reevaluated. There is no chance of a "Utopian socialist system" right now, simply due to the fact that human nature won't allow, but we can strive to allow for a more equal capitalist system(I know, equality and capitalism in the same sentence, the horror :P)

 

Things have not worked out that well for you, things have been on the decline since a private corporation took control of your currency, and was worsened by Reagan. Capitalism has worsened your county, my country, and all countries. Because all countries on this planet are capitalist, even those that claim to be "communist".

 

These Democrats that are in office are not Liberals(they're not even american liberals), they are conservatives. Conservatives that run for private corporations. In terms of this issue, it would have been better to vote for Romney(a sentence I never thought I'd say), because he wouldn't have been able to pass this plan off as "liberal" like Obama did.

 

 

The thing I advocate is voluntarism.  To me, that's the only thing that matters here.  That the interactions between all parties be voluntary.   Capitalism is an exellent form of voluntarism.  You can have voluntary socialism too, and I would have no problem with that whatsoever.  But the moment someone wants to force others into socialism through violence (i.e. government), I have a problem with it.
 
The most important element that is missing in what you said is government.  You can have socialism without government (a family is a good example of socialism without government).  You can have capitalism without government. But government itself can never be capitalist (read: voluntary), by its very nature.  
 
I don't think I've ever heard of Capitalism being described as "advocating a small percentage of the population having most of the stuff".  That makes it sound like capitalism is government forcing people to give money to the rich (like a bank bailout... which is not capitalism).  
 
Whatever the "current form" is, it's not what I would call capitalism.  It certainly does not have the attributes of voluntarism.  

Edited by Iron Helix, 04 December 2013 - 12:31 PM.


Awards Bar:

Users Awards




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users