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How do you guys feel about guns now?


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#21
Lysistrata

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Master Master Master Samus, you are barking up the wrong tree with this, its a different society as the european (or british if you want to go that way) and they are working with it their way.

 

Yeah, different society, different thought processes I guess

 

This

 

Plus the fact that somehow the weapon lobbyist have found a way to connect the 'American' way of thinking towards freedom with the ownership and legalization of firearms. If those were photos of weed and you'd replace the word 'firearm' or 'gun' with marihuana, the whole discussion would be backwards. 

 

Okay I'm sorry, but this is just about the stupidest thing I have read here on the topic of guns. Firearms have never had to be "legalized" in the USA. It's in the Constitution that the right to bear arms shall not be infringed. It's the "gun control lobbyists" that have been trying to get around that right for over a hundred years. Progressives cannot turn the country into a massive Federal Government as long as the American people are armed... and to trivialize the Bill of Rights with your insignificant need to smoke weed is insulting.


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#22
Shahenshah

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Why is this unfortunate incident not being labelled terrorism by mainstream media?



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#23
Lysistrata

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Why is this unfortunate incident not being labelled terrorism by mainstream media?

I think that's a good question Shah. A terrorist act is pretty much killing innocent people for the purpose of changing government policy.

I believe an arguement can be made that this was for that purpose. Is it a stronger arguement than this guy was just a criminal that wanted to murder a couple of cops? To give it some "higher purpose" would encourage more people to view it as some kind of noble act. There is no evidence that he was acting on behalf of anyone but himself, and his own hatred. Still your question is a valid one.


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#24
ihateaaron

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This is going to be a heated and controversial conversation no matter how it is brought up.  The current round being started by the murder of two police officers is only going to give the issue a little extra fire.

 

To the point made earlier.  Gun ownership has never had to be legalized in the Unites States of America.  It has been a right since the foundations of the constitution were laid.  The founders of the country believed that it was important enough to follow only freedom of speech.  That says a lot.

 

Gun ownership in the US is higher than anywhere else I know of.    There are statistics thrown around by a lot of people that are either incorrect, or intentionally skewed to support their sides case.  But taking a look at it myself this is what I can see.

 

The ATF statistics show that in 2007 there were 3,922,613 firearms in the US.  In 2010 there was 5,459,240.  That is an increase of just over 39%.  With those numbers and the rhetoric I see in the news all the time it would suggest a similar increase should be seen in homicides that involve firearms.

 

Heading over to the FBI statistics page I found the following data.  in 2007 there was 10,129 homicides involving firearms of any type.  In 2010 that number dropped to 8,874, which is a decrease of just about 14%.

 

In 2011 the number of homicides involving a firearm continued the downward trend and landed at 8,583.  I do not have the numbers available to me at the moment for gun ownership, but there is multiple reports stating that gun ownership is still on the rise.

 

All of these numbers show that legal gun ownership is not directly linked to the homicide rate with firearms.  If I get the time I will see if I can find the numbers for how many of the homicides were committed with illegal guns, or by people who could not legally own a gun.

 

I put all of this out here as a reminder to not blindly follow the media for either side.  The media is taking sides, pushing agendas, and attempting to sway those who fail to do their own research.  It is no longer an acceptable method of research to turn to the media of any form.

 

To the point of the purpose of a firearm.  Yes they were designed for more efficient killing.  They have been around since about 1000AD when the Chinese first started using what is credited as being the origin of the current firearms.  Firearms have distinct purposes.  Some are designed to hunt, so for self defense, some are made for the joy of just target shooting.  They have as many purposes as there are classifications.

 

The fact that they are efficient at what they are designed for is not the problem in my opinion.  It has more to do with who is using this tool in a manner which violates the laws surrounding the use of them.  No matter what laws you make, or the level of enforcement, the only people that will be affect by the laws are those who willingly follow them.  Meaning that I will be affected because I legally own all of my firearms, but Johnny Gang Banger with his illegal weapons cash will be unaffected because he doesn't give two craps about what laws are out there, or that he is in violation of them.  More restrictive gun laws will not stop the majority of firearm related incidents.

 

Also, when I get the chance I will dig up some of the statistics that I have seen that show a sharp drop in crime, especially violent crime, in areas where concealed carry license issuance has increased.  An armed citizen is harder to rob, and not knowing who is armed means a roulette wheel spin every time.



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#25
onbekende

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Master Master Master Master Samus, you are barking up the wrong tree with this, its a different society as the european (or british if you want to go that way) and they are working with it their way.

 

Yeah, different society, different thought processes I guess

 

This

 

Plus the fact that somehow the weapon lobbyist have found a way to connect the 'American' way of thinking towards freedom with the ownership and legalization of firearms. If those were photos of weed and you'd replace the word 'firearm' or 'gun' with marihuana, the whole discussion would be backwards. 

 

lol good point.

 

Doesn't Switzerland issue every male between 20 & 30 an assault rifle? Granted, they get militia training as well, but you don't exactly hear about a lot of gun violence in Switzerland.

 

Also, the NY shooter was already a felon, who should not have been sold a gun by federal law. Yet he found one, anyway.

 

Military training even, its a kinda-draft system they got going there.

 

Now if this directly relates to their hightend ratio of suicide and gun murders is up for debate. It is related and certainly doesn't aliavate (lovely word >_>) it, but I won't say its the sole reason (aka you don't kill yourself just cause you got a gun, but it does make it easier).

 

As for the "society" difference, americans are ingrained with the idea that the 2nd amendment protects their freedom thruw firearms, how europe is less free then america is another debate thou >_>


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#26
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The statistics are interesting, but I don't think they provide the needed answers or insight into what is undoubtedly a complex problem (I'd still like to see them though, ihateaaron, if you have the time!).

 

I'm not American, and I do have difficulty understanding the gun culture there. Having said that it, it does seem that the problem really isn't about the guns. For example, I have seen statistics that supposedly show increased legal gun ownership in certain areas also shows a decrease in crime. But what areas are these statistics focusing on? Do these include areas predominantly inhabited by those on the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum? Would an increase in gun ownership there lead to falling crime rates?

 

I'm also interested about the whole guns = freedom philosophy. Do some Americans believe that other places are less free (Europe and Australia for example)? Or that if given the chance, your government will enslave you if the public weren't armed? Is freedom being able to defend yourself, or being able to send your kids to school without the fear of them being shot?

 

These are all sincere questions and not criticisms, by the way.


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#27
DarkFox

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Cars kill more people per year than guns in most countries. Why don't we ban cars? Just because someone uses something for evil does not make the tool evil.

 

If you really want to end someone's life you can find a way, why punish those who are responsible with their belongings?

 

 

 

I would also like to point out that most the gun deaths in the USA are suicides. 

 

 

7162014gun-blog480.jpghhhh.jpg

 

The second graph shows a much smaller amount of deaths because it is not all car related deaths but just those from collisions.


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#28
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Again, statistics don't necessarily paint a complete picture. If I were to tell you that the flu is estimated to kill 36,000 people a year in the US (CDC), would we be correct in assuming that the flu is more dangerous than a gun?

 

Vehicle accidents are the only non-disease/illness in the world's top 10 leading causes of death (WHO), and the leading cause of death in the world for people aged between 15-29 (WHO). It would also be pertinent to highlight that a vast majority of these deaths are accidents, whereas the majority of gun deaths are not. The fact that gun related deaths are even close to vehicle deaths, given how much time we spend in vehicles and the sheer amount of vehicles on the road, is alarming on its own.

 

The same sources where those above graphs come from also note that in 14 States gun related deaths outnumber vehicle deaths, and by 2015 it's projected that the overall number of gun deaths in the US will outnumber vehicle related deaths.


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#29
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#30
ihateaaron

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Again, statistics don't necessarily paint a complete picture. If I were to tell you that the flu is estimated to kill 36,000 people a year in the US (CDC), would we be correct in assuming that the flu is more dangerous than a gun?

 

Vehicle accidents are the only non-disease/illness in the world's top 10 leading causes of death (WHO), and the leading cause of death in the world for people aged between 15-29 (WHO). It would also be pertinent to highlight that a vast majority of these deaths are accidents, whereas the majority of gun deaths are not. The fact that gun related deaths are even close to vehicle deaths, given how much time we spend in vehicles and the sheer amount of vehicles on the road, is alarming on its own.

 

The same sources where those above graphs come from also note that in 14 States gun related deaths outnumber vehicle deaths, and by 2015 it's projected that the overall number of gun deaths in the US will outnumber vehicle related deaths.

 

You are correct in that the statistics do not paint the whole picture.  They do help to clarify some things.  I was pointing out that the presentation of the media that gun deaths and gun sales were directly related, and that people are dying in record numbers is false.

 

There are many underlying issues that are not being addressed.  Mental health, poor upbringings, lack of morals, a society that glorifies violence, and a general lack of respect and personal responsibility have created a societal paradigm that has put us where we are.

 

In my opinion the first step is to reinstate a level of responsibility for our own actions and respect for other people.  If a person takes responsibility for their actions and thinks about how their actions will affect others, the world is a different place.  If we, as a whole, could make that the norm...  It's a whole new world.

 

On the topic of the police shootings.  Master Samus.  That is another tragedy.  I have some very strong feelings on this topic, but will keep most of that quiet.

 

For what it is worth, I think there are people, both in the media and public figures, who are not helping this situation by continuing to stir the pot.  There is some things going on that make me think that someone is using this for political gains, and a few who are using it for financial gains.

 

There is no reason in the world to murder a person.  But to do it to someone because of their job...  That makes even less sense.

 

I will leave that there.

 

Back to the wonderful world of statistics.

 

Cars kill more people than guns.  It is just what it is.  A car is a tool that gets me from point A to point B, or in some cases serves some other purpose.  A gun is  a tool just the same.  Non of my guns have ever killed anyone.  But they have ended violent situations without bloodshed, and have served to protect my family.

 

Case in point, and one of the reasons I will always be an advocate for gun ownership in the US, is this: I left for work one morning shortly after I got out of the military.  On most mornings I had to cross the street to get to where I parked my car.  On this particular morning as I was crossing the street I noticed some people in the street about a half block down.  Watching the situation I realized that there were six guys stomping the crap out of someone in the middle of the street.  It appeared to me that they were intent upon doing severe damage to the guy, and possibly could take it to the level of death.

 

I made the decision to approach and see if I could end the situation.  When I was about 30-35 feet away (10 meters - ish) I shouted to get there attention and asked what was going on.  Two guys continued to kick the guy on the ground and four turned towards me.  Two of the four that began to approach me proceeded to pull out pocket knives.

 

I am not a tiny guy, but by no means am I some sort of giant, nor am I incapable of defending myself.  In this situation though, I was severely out matched by the numbers and weaponry.  I opted to draw my pistol and let them know that with no uncertainty I would defend myself.  At this point they turned and ran.

 

As soon as they were going I called for police and medical and assisted the guy on the ground.

 

Looking at that scenario, without my gun I had two options.

 

Option one; call 911 and get the police in route.  The average response time in my neighborhood at that time was just over 9 minutes.  That is an eternity when you are getting stomped on the ground.  I personally believe that this guy would not have been alive if I had waited for the police to arrive.

 

Option two; confront the attackers without a means to defend myself.  Obviously hindsight is 20/20 and I have no doubts how that would have ended.

 

I would most likely not been willing to step in and do something without the ability and sense that I would be able to adequately defend myself.  And I believe that in that scenario this guy would most likely be dead, or at least would have suffered injuries that would have stayed with him forever.

 

Again, I do not have the statistics in front of me, and it looks like I will be doing some statistic diving over the next couple of days, but for every crime committed with a gun, (not just homicides, but every crime) I think the number of crimes prevented is 2.5 in the US.

 

And as cliche as it may sound, the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun (and the ability to properly use it).

 

I am not saying that gun violence is not a problem, I am just of the belief that the gun is not where the problem lies.  My guns have never done anything I have not made them do.  It is a tool, and nothing more.  It is the person who picks up that tool that can either use it for legal and intended purposes, or use it to do things that I would prefer not happen via any tool.



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#31
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Thanks for the real life example. I poke and prod with the gun issue because I'm trying to understand the culture behind it.

 

I have never lived in the US (though that will change in 6 months) and though I have been in a couple of hairy situations, I've still to this day never felt like I ever needed a gun. I hope that continues. Anyway, different cultures, different world etc.


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#32
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Well Mr. ihateaaron, that is an amazing story and I hope the guy bought you a drink. If it was me in your situation, I would not have had the pistol to draw, for I do not carry. So I probably would have got my butt kicked too. In situations like that, I forget I'm not a big man. If it was one of my girls, there would be fatalities... but my girls are pretty smart.

 

I have been torturing myself to come up with a reply to some of these questions, so I'll give it a shot. Yes, I do believe that those in other countries are less free. They may feel free, but is there anything they can really do about it if something crossed the line? Too many put their lives in the hands of their government. We, as Americans, have a big problem trusting the government. That's why we change it up so much. We keep it fresh as much as we can, and stand by the law. Part of the deal was the power always remains with the people... and that power is, we're in charge.

 

The gun issue isn't about these events of violence, accidents, and suicides. The gun control people use these events in an attempt to gain public support to take the guns. It's the only way to take the guns... it would take Constitutional power to take them. It's not about the guns with these people. It's about control, and the American people cannot be controlled, when they are armed.

 

So it's not about the cop that shoots a black boy that attacks him. It's not about a loon that shoots up a school. It's not about the comic book character that guns down a theatre. It's not about the Congresswoman that stages a fundraiser in the parking lot of a Safeway without security... it's about Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness for about 310 million American Citizens. You want to say we can lose the guns and still have that... well we don't trust the government to keep promises.


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#33
ihateaaron

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Well Mr. ihateaaron, that is an amazing story and I hope the guy bought you a drink. If it was me in your situation, I would not have had the pistol to draw, for I do not carry. So I probably would have got my butt kicked too. In situations like that, I forget I'm not a big man. If it was one of my girls, there would be fatalities... but my girls are pretty smart.

 

I have been torturing myself to come up with a reply to some of these questions, so I'll give it a shot. Yes, I do believe that those in other countries are less free. They may feel free, but is there anything they can really do about it if something crossed the line? Too many put their lives in the hands of their government. We, as Americans, have a big problem trusting the government. That's why we change it up so much. We keep it fresh as much as we can, and stand by the law. Part of the deal was the power always remains with the people... and that power is, we're in charge.

 

The gun issue isn't about these events of violence, accidents, and suicides. The gun control people use these events in an attempt to gain public support to take the guns. It's the only way to take the guns... it would take Constitutional power to take them. It's not about the guns with these people. It's about control, and the American people cannot be controlled, when they are armed.

 

So it's not about the cop that shoots a black boy that attacks him. It's not about a loon that shoots up a school. It's not about the comic book character that guns down a theatre. It's not about the Congresswoman that stages a fundraiser in the parking lot of a Safeway without security... it's about Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness for about 310 million American Citizens. You want to say we can lose the guns and still have that... well we don't trust the government to keep promises.

 

Agreed.  There is a general, and well earned, distrust for government in the US.  And control is a central theme, but it is hard to address without getting into conspiracy theories or getting labeled.

 

And for the record, if it was my wife or kids, it would not matter what I have with me.  You will have to kill me to get to them.

 

I do not expect every person to carry.  The great thing is that it is a right, you have it, but you also have the choice to exercise that right. Or not.

 

As for the guy, he wound up in the hospital with some bruising and a few fractures, and I moved out of that neighborhood before he came back.  It was shortly after that incident when two low level Russian mafia members exacted revenge on a neighbor behind us, and I decided the neighborhood sucked more than the rent was good.

 

TheWanderer: I enjoy good conversation about issues like this.  Rather than people screaming rhetoric at the top of their lungs, lets sit down and have a civil conversation.  It doesn't mean we will agree on the issue, nor does it mean there is nothing to gain.  Perhaps with rational talks we can at least reach an understanding.  (that is not necessarily directed at you, but more of a general statement).

 

As a "well traveled" person, I have been to other free countries, and some not so free.  There is a difference that is hard to explain between what some people define as free, and what is defined as freedom in America.  Yes it borderlines and occasionally crosses into the realm of arrogance, but there is also a profound sense that all people deserve freedom.  Even those born into countries under strict dictatorship deserve the right to live and die free.

 

My hope is that you never have the need for a gun as well.  I have never had to fire mine in anger, and I am both proud and profoundly happy about that.  Even the lowest form of human is a life.  It is not my place to be their judge or executioner.  However, I will not allow for, or stand by for, a person who willfully harms another for their own gains.  That is one of those things that will always make me willing to fight.



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#34
Malekith

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Perhaps Im biased as an American but Im a strong supporter of our bill of rights, the first and second amendments in particular.  I believe that the populace (of any nation) has the right and in my mind the duty to arm itself.  In my opinion the right to defend your home family and yourself is inviolate.  Whether this is on the scale of a personal level such as defending your home and family from an intruder or on a more national level such as the resistance of an illegal or injust government it is an important right to protect.

 

Police being "executed", school shootings, gun violence in general are all bad things.  I dont think there is really anyone who would argue that they are a good thing or there shouldnt be steps taken to try and rectify.  The real issue is the disconnect between supporters of gun ownership rights and the supporters of gun restrictions.  The internet, a 24 hour news cycle, and facebook have all armed both sides with all sorts of statistics.  Its a trivial thing to find "silver bullet" statistics for either side because each argument has merits.  It is important to remember however that statistics rarely "prove" anything.   A very important scientific principle to remember when looking at statistics is that "correlation does not equal causation".

 

While I do find the great urge to throw a number of statistics at you, I will refrain and simply posit that gun violence is a large and complicated problem.  There are many, many variables.   A weapons ban as evidenced by both current and former laws would be hard pressed to solve much of anything.


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#35
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Statistics are just another tool in the box.  They should not be the center of any conversation.  Except in Statistics class.



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#36
Samus

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00:48 Fernando[IRON] � I will refer to you as Supreme Overlord Guru Samus

Only I have the baptismal power.

Samus because of your dedicated service to IRON; your high casualty count and aid given your fellow IRONers. I hear by baptize ye in Fire and blood. You rise as IRON!

You may now wear proudly in your Sig "I have been Baptized in Fire and Blood and emerged as IRON."

18:28 %FinsterBaby[IRON] • I'm only afraid of Master Samus.
18:28 %FinsterBaby[IRON] • All powerful root admin
18:29 @onbekende • wussie
18:29 %FinsterBaby[IRON] • he can make you disappear. I've seen it

 

MVP(Mod’s Choice)= Master Samus; I think Master Samus played amazingly for a guy who claims it was his second only mafia game. He never led the town on him and that’s why he deserves this award. He was impressive in manipulating the town that led to the ultimate mafia victory.
 
Player of Mafia; Master Samus/emudevelopment (shared); I think both were instrumental in the town’s defeat. Both were manipulative and deceptive. They clearly came out as pro-town and looked like de-facto town leaders. They led the lynch wagon w/o anyone uncovering their true motives.

Samus, you should be proud that you've helped make an environment where people feel safe enough to share their experiences.


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#37
Lysistrata

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I guess I'm not getting it Master S... are you against cops in the USA? Against cops in the USA because they carry weapons?

Are you a member of a covert shadow clan dedicated to disarming the global population? What's your point? What's the end game?

Most of us here in the USA live our lives in peace and only hear about these events on the news.

Though tragic... we will not give up our right to own guns because there are bad people. That is more reason for us to keep them.


Woke (adj.)

A state of awareness only achieved by those dumb enough

to find injustice in everything except their own behavior.


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#38
Samus

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I guess I'm not getting it Master S... are you against cops in the USA? Against cops in the USA because they carry weapons?

Are you a member of a covert shadow clan dedicated to disarming the global population? What's your point? What's the end game?

Most of us here in the USA live our lives in peace and only hear about these events on the news.

Though tragic... we will not give up our right to own guns because there are bad people. That is more reason for us to keep them.

 

Nahh in general i'm against the use of guns by anyone who doesn't serve in any protective role for a society.

 

But i've learnt to accept that we live in different societies and what may be the absolute norm in one society can be the complete opposite in another, so the ownership of guns in this case isn't my problem.

 

My problem is more against police brutality and these police officers not being appropriately punished for their actions.

 

It seems to me that police officers aren't taught the importance of their badge and what it means to defend a society and its citizens, from what I see day after day is police officers just abusing their positions entirely and I probably wouldn't even notice it or care much if it was something you hear every month or something, but you see evidence of it every day.

 

Also its the fact that police lives weigh more in value than any other individuals lives.



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00:48 Fernando[IRON] � I will refer to you as Supreme Overlord Guru Samus

Only I have the baptismal power.

Samus because of your dedicated service to IRON; your high casualty count and aid given your fellow IRONers. I hear by baptize ye in Fire and blood. You rise as IRON!

You may now wear proudly in your Sig "I have been Baptized in Fire and Blood and emerged as IRON."

18:28 %FinsterBaby[IRON] • I'm only afraid of Master Samus.
18:28 %FinsterBaby[IRON] • All powerful root admin
18:29 @onbekende • wussie
18:29 %FinsterBaby[IRON] • he can make you disappear. I've seen it

 

MVP(Mod’s Choice)= Master Samus; I think Master Samus played amazingly for a guy who claims it was his second only mafia game. He never led the town on him and that’s why he deserves this award. He was impressive in manipulating the town that led to the ultimate mafia victory.
 
Player of Mafia; Master Samus/emudevelopment (shared); I think both were instrumental in the town’s defeat. Both were manipulative and deceptive. They clearly came out as pro-town and looked like de-facto town leaders. They led the lynch wagon w/o anyone uncovering their true motives.

Samus, you should be proud that you've helped make an environment where people feel safe enough to share their experiences.


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#39
Lysistrata

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You have to keep things into perspective when looking at the USA. It's a big country. Ferguson-Missouri, New York City, and Albuquerque-New Mexico have a lot of miles between them... and even more people and police. The internet brings everything that happens on the planet to a mouse click. 50 years ago this stuff was happening all over, and no one ever heard about it unless it happened in your town. There was no absolute solution for it then, and there is not one now. There are some things everyone has to accept that there is no correct way... just the best way. We found it in the law. Whatever the ruling is, take it and learn.


Woke (adj.)

A state of awareness only achieved by those dumb enough

to find injustice in everything except their own behavior.


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#40
TheWanderer

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Thanks for the answers. I think in regards to the distrust of government, cultures aren't as different as we might think. It may manifest in different ways, but I understand where you guys are coming from.

 

@Lysistrata - I knew when I asked those questions you would put a lot of thought into giving an honest answer!

 

@ihateaaron - I enjoy discussions like this too, and couldn't agree with you more about using these conversations in reaching a better understanding of both sides of the fence.


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