seems to be the Jemen AQ branch.

18 years....the guy hasn't even lived part of his life and has already ruined it. That's sad.

The fact that this discussing turned into a discussion about religion bothers me. The people responsible are using their religion as a 'justification', I'm under the impression that they use it as an excuse. To the absolute core, all monotheistic religion are the same: they tell the story of the creation of man and the way man should behave and live. Nothing more, nothing less. Go to a mosque, a church or a synagogue and ask any random person there what is the meaning of religion and basically all answers will consist of that 1 little line. In every religion killing is a sin, but for some reason over time people, and in the earlier times in history very powerful people (the Popes), have (mis-)used religion as a justification for violence. Believe me that the crusades in Medieval times to Palestina/Israel are not such a different thing from what is happening nowadays: people are using their believe, their interpretation of their religion as an excuse to wage war. I can guarantee you that in no religious book the act of violence is condoned. I hear people say that the Quran does have, but I dear you to actually learn the Arabic language and translate, in absolute wording and in context, what it is actually saying. It is all about interpretation. Because the Torah, the Bible, the Quran and any other religious book are books that have been written years thousands of years ago, their wording can't be explained by those who have written it down. It may be the word of God in the eyes of many, but in absolute reality it is still man that has written it down, and who says that man didn't alter the wordings of 'God' in the process? Who even says that your interpretation of the words of God aren't the opposite of what he means/meant?

 

As I see it these people, IS, Al Qaida, whoever is involved, are waging war using religion as an excuse. They could believe in the easter bunny and use that as the reason why they are doing what they are doing. I can absolutely guarantee you that none of these actions are justified in any religious book and should be justified by anything. They think they are doing to 'right' thing, yet are so blind that they can't see that they are being used by those who twist the words of their religion for their own benefit. It's no surprise that most of the people that are committing these acts are illiterate, as they can't read the words that following for themselves. The same was the case when the protestants split off from the Catholic Church. People need to be able to read the texts for themselves and make a decision of their own on what the interpretation should be. Only then are people free in their own decisions. And as long as that isn't the case, people are easily manipulated. 

The fact that this discussing turned into a discussion about religion bothers me. The people responsible are using their religion as a 'justification', I'm under the impression that they use it as an excuse. To the absolute core, all monotheistic religion are the same: they tell the story of the creation of man and the way man should behave and live. Nothing more, nothing less. Go to a mosque, a church or a synagogue and ask any random person there what is the meaning of religion and basically all answers will consist of that 1 little line. In every religion killing is a sin, but for some reason over time people, and in the earlier times in history very powerful people (the Popes), have (mis-)used religion as a justification for violence. Believe me that the crusades in Medieval times to Palestina/Israel are not such a different thing from what is happening nowadays: people are using their believe, their interpretation of their religion as an excuse to wage war. I can guarantee you that in no religious book the act of violence is condoned. I hear people say that the Quran does have, but I dear you to actually learn the Arabic language and translate, in absolute wording and in context, what it is actually saying. It is all about interpretation. Because the Torah, the Bible, the Quran and any other religious book are books that have been written years thousands of years ago, their wording can't be explained by those who have written it down. It may be the word of God in the eyes of many, but in absolute reality it is still man that has written it down, and who says that man didn't alter the wordings of 'God' in the process? Who even says that your interpretation of the words of God aren't the opposite of what he means/meant?

 

As I see it these people, IS, Al Qaida, whoever is involved, are waging war using religion as an excuse. They could believe in the easter bunny and use that as the reason why they are doing what they are doing. I can absolutely guarantee you that none of these actions are justified in any religious book and should be justified by anything. They think they are doing to 'right' thing, yet are so blind that they can't see that they are being used by those who twist the words of their religion for their own benefit. It's no surprise that most of the people that are committing these acts are illiterate, as they can't read the words that following for themselves. The same was the case when the protestants split off from the Catholic Church. People need to be able to read the texts for themselves and make a decision of their own on what the interpretation should be. Only then are people free in their own decisions. And as long as that isn't the case, people are easily manipulated. 

It all come down to how you interpret your religion.

Some Taoists consider Lao Tzu divine and praise him as a god. Some worship all sorts of gods and believe in Chinese folklore. Others are more spiritual and agnostic.

Some Muslims believe women must cover their heads. Some believe men must do the same. Others believe neither must cover their head. Some Muslims believe tattoos are haram. Others don't.

Some Jews are Zionists. Others aren't.

Some Christians believe in Purgatory, the Spirit World, or the Trinity. Others don't.

 

And overall, morality is subjective. It's only right or wrong if you make it so. Millions of Jews were murdered because a bunch of Germans believed they were doing the right thing for their country, people and culture.

 

 

18 years....the guy hasn't even lived part of his life and has already ruined it. That's sad.

I'm going to make a guess here and say that the 18 yr old was one of the brothers.

Turns out the policeman whom they have brutally executed on the ground was also a Muslim

 

 

 

After seeing what the Prophet Mohammad 's  followers do to people , I have come to the conclusion that he is not the kind of god that I want . I will stick to the GOD that I have.

 

It used to be that those that died for freedom, died on the battlefield. It seems the battlefield has been brought to them. These French victims are no different. God rest their souls. Let us honor them in the name of freedom. 

 

3T

Let's not demonize Islam in comparison to other religions. Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody and ridiculous. The only difference is the times and cultural evolution. Christians can't go around burning witches, stoning homosexuals and launching crusades anymore because religion is dying in the west and things are becoming more liberal.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Salafi/Wahhabi movement is a pretty new thing that popped up in opposition to this global liberalization.  Even most Salafists are opposed to this type of crap. Islam should not be defined by the actions of a few dick heads. That's like defining Christianity based on the actions of the KKK or Westburo Baptist Church or one of the other countless Christian sects that are insane.

 

 

I don't follow your point thatf Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody as modern Islamist extremism.  Did Christianity and Judaism retain its membership by threatening to execute anyone who left their religion? Remember, this is according to the example set by Muhammad.  Does Christianity and Judaism teach that those who were not Jewish or Christian are less than fully human? Muhammad said that Muslims can be put to death for murder, but that a Muslim could never be put to death for killing a non-Muslim. 

 

I am not speaking about all Muslims, but this extremist ideology of hatred towards other religions and killing those that do not believe in "Allah". These extremists continue their Jihad against other religions for hundreds of years, checked by the ability of non-Muslims to defend themselves. To this day, not a week goes by that Islamic fundamentalists do not attempt to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists explicity in the name of Allah. 

 

3T

 

You should read the bible. Both the Torah and Bible specifically state that non-believers should all be killed on numerous occasions. Hell, the bible even tells you to kill your kids if they curse at you, stone your daughter if shes not a virgin on her wedding day, and even exterminate entire towns if even one person among them is a non-believer.

The difference is that while the world has become more liberal, the Muslim culture has stayed relatively the same, because unlike Christianity, Islam cannot be edited or changed. The Quran and Sharia remain the way they were written, unlike the bible.

The west inevitably created this problem when we dissolved the Ottoman Empire. We should have never done that.

This extremist ideology is entirely based on that particular event in history.

 

Show me these verses please, i'm dying to prove you wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

After seeing what the Prophet Mohammad 's  followers do to people , I have come to the conclusion that he is not the kind of god that I want . I will stick to the GOD that I have.

 

It used to be that those that died for freedom, died on the battlefield. It seems the battlefield has been brought to them. These French victims are no different. God rest their souls. Let us honor them in the name of freedom. 

 

3T

Let's not demonize Islam in comparison to other religions. Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody and ridiculous. The only difference is the times and cultural evolution. Christians can't go around burning witches, stoning homosexuals and launching crusades anymore because religion is dying in the west and things are becoming more liberal.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Salafi/Wahhabi movement is a pretty new thing that popped up in opposition to this global liberalization.  Even most Salafists are opposed to this type of crap. Islam should not be defined by the actions of a few dick heads. That's like defining Christianity based on the actions of the KKK or Westburo Baptist Church or one of the other countless Christian sects that are insane.

 

 

I don't follow your point thatf Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody as modern Islamist extremism.  Did Christianity and Judaism retain its membership by threatening to execute anyone who left their religion? Remember, this is according to the example set by Muhammad.  Does Christianity and Judaism teach that those who were not Jewish or Christian are less than fully human? Muhammad said that Muslims can be put to death for murder, but that a Muslim could never be put to death for killing a non-Muslim. 

 

I am not speaking about all Muslims, but this extremist ideology of hatred towards other religions and killing those that do not believe in "Allah". These extremists continue their Jihad against other religions for hundreds of years, checked by the ability of non-Muslims to defend themselves. To this day, not a week goes by that Islamic fundamentalists do not attempt to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists explicity in the name of Allah. 

 

3T

 

You should read the bible. Both the Torah and Bible specifically state that non-believers should all be killed on numerous occasions. Hell, the bible even tells you to kill your kids if they curse at you, stone your daughter if shes not a virgin on her wedding day, and even exterminate entire towns if even one person among them is a non-believer.

The difference is that while the world has become more liberal, the Muslim culture has stayed relatively the same, because unlike Christianity, Islam cannot be edited or changed. The Quran and Sharia remain the way they were written, unlike the bible.

The west inevitably created this problem when we dissolved the Ottoman Empire. We should have never done that.

This extremist ideology is entirely based on that particular event in history.

 

Whoa, I have to comment on this one. the Torah says that. I've have never seen that anywhere within the Bible. Anywhere. That would be a direct contradiction to what it says. I have never seen any verses in the bible like the ones you describe here Fox Fire. 

 

 

 

 

So, let me point something out about the middle east. Its a completely different culture there then in the United States. Religion is very important to these people and compared to Religion in the United States or in Europe, we are very laid back. There are really 2 type of islamic beliefs. There are those who believe but think they should be nice. There are good islamic people. Then you have the extremists. Like al qaeda. They are different, and the more outspoken or more active people will heard and remembered more than the less quiet ones. That being said, both types thinks the other is despicable and hypocritical. Religion is more important than life in the middle east. Over here, its a laid back thing that doesn't compare. 

 

There is no solution in the Middle East. At least none that "The Western World" could come up with. Because ideals are completely different. But turning our head and letting them work out their problems isn't a solution either. The basic principles that forge who we are, don't hold up to these peoples standards. If we decide just to pull completely out of the Middle East, It would look like some parts of Africa. Absolute Chaos and Genocide. Which could last 100 years or longer there. Our Involvement merely delays the chaos that the middle east is. This area is going to remain like this unless a Group emerges that isn't Extremists from there, and can gain just as much power and support as the extremist groups out there. I highly doubt such a group can emerge. America is merely peacekeepers, who install these Democracies with no backbone or foundation like we have here. I can't think of scenario that we could install any government anywhere with backbone and foundation that can hold up. 

 

War is second hand human nature. Fueled by money, motive, land, and ambition. Nobody goes to war without these things. Go in half heartedly into war, and it can and probably will eat you alive. 

 

I really dont want to turn this into a Christian bashing thread. But I've read the bible, and that's exactly why I stopped being a Christian. I could post a wall of quotes from the bible, but I already did this on the OWF to the displeasure of many Christians and Jews. Equally, I can post a wall of identical quotes from the Quran.

 

As for the middle east and different types of Muslims.... Here's the thing:

Islam is not like Judaism and Christianity in the sense that Islam is a much broader belief. It's not just a religion, it's a way of life complete with a political ideology and law. America would be pretty simaler to a Muslim state if the Church were in charge.

The study of the Quran and it's interpretation is an ongoing debate. Always has been. This is where you get most of the disagreements you see among Muslims about the religion. 

 

@Fox Fire. All I'm saying the bible doesn't say that. The Quran does though. (It also says to beat women and where to beat them). If the Bible did, it be hypocritical of itself. I'll leave it at that. 

 

@Samus, I'd say quote the verses, but Fox Fire is my friend. I think this is just a misunderstanding. 

http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/InspireWinter2013.pdf

His name was apparently on a magazine by AQ as an execution target...I would hope that anyone else on there takes the necessary precautions to protect themselves. Although, looking at the gun control laws in EU, what way is there to protect yourself from these people?

There are radicals in every group or sect of society, religion, and politics.  However, the Radical Islamic individuals tend to be the worst.  Any who use violence to accomplish their own goals are not necessarily seen in a very bright light.  Personally what we saw in France today was a terrorist attack by the same individuals who continue to use violence to spread their message of hate and Jihad.  They are not defending or spreading their religion, they are carrying out mass murders, inhumane and deplorable acts, and any sort of talk to them is cheap.  I concur with the others in this forum, that in dealing with Islamic Radicals the only means they understand is violence.  They must be obtained, and if they were in America, I would hope they would receive the death penalty.  However, they do want to die for their religion? so that they can go and receive their virgins for spilling the blood of the infidels so they believe.  Which brings me to the conclusion that, I do indeed hope the black-ops carried out by the CIA, MI6, and French Intelligence continue to brutalize and bring suffering to those who wish to do harm to innocent civilians, there is no justification for the murder of innocents.

http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/InspireWinter2013.pdf

His name was apparently on a magazine by AQ as an execution target...I would hope that anyone else on there takes the necessary precautions to protect themselves. Although, looking at the gun control laws in EU, what way is there to protect yourself from these people?

He hade Police Bodyguards that were there when the attackers showed up, they they were killed also. 

 

 

 

 

After seeing what the Prophet Mohammad 's  followers do to people , I have come to the conclusion that he is not the kind of god that I want . I will stick to the GOD that I have.

 

It used to be that those that died for freedom, died on the battlefield. It seems the battlefield has been brought to them. These French victims are no different. God rest their souls. Let us honor them in the name of freedom. 

 

3T

Let's not demonize Islam in comparison to other religions. Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody and ridiculous. The only difference is the times and cultural evolution. Christians can't go around burning witches, stoning homosexuals and launching crusades anymore because religion is dying in the west and things are becoming more liberal.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Salafi/Wahhabi movement is a pretty new thing that popped up in opposition to this global liberalization.  Even most Salafists are opposed to this type of crap. Islam should not be defined by the actions of a few dick heads. That's like defining Christianity based on the actions of the KKK or Westburo Baptist Church or one of the other countless Christian sects that are insane.

 

 

I don't follow your point thatf Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody as modern Islamist extremism.  Did Christianity and Judaism retain its membership by threatening to execute anyone who left their religion? Remember, this is according to the example set by Muhammad.  Does Christianity and Judaism teach that those who were not Jewish or Christian are less than fully human? Muhammad said that Muslims can be put to death for murder, but that a Muslim could never be put to death for killing a non-Muslim. 

 

I am not speaking about all Muslims, but this extremist ideology of hatred towards other religions and killing those that do not believe in "Allah". These extremists continue their Jihad against other religions for hundreds of years, checked by the ability of non-Muslims to defend themselves. To this day, not a week goes by that Islamic fundamentalists do not attempt to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists explicity in the name of Allah. 

 

3T

 

You should read the bible. Both the Torah and Bible specifically state that non-believers should all be killed on numerous occasions. Hell, the bible even tells you to kill your kids if they curse at you, stone your daughter if shes not a virgin on her wedding day, and even exterminate entire towns if even one person among them is a non-believer.

The difference is that while the world has become more liberal, the Muslim culture has stayed relatively the same, because unlike Christianity, Islam cannot be edited or changed. The Quran and Sharia remain the way they were written, unlike the bible.

The west inevitably created this problem when we dissolved the Ottoman Empire. We should have never done that.

This extremist ideology is entirely based on that particular event in history.

 

Show me these verses please, i'm dying to prove you wrong.

 

I don't want this to become a thread about me demonizing Christianity. If you want, there are several sites that point out all the shit wrong with Abrahamic religion. I'll give you this one. (Read at your own risk)

And I'll leave it at that. I'm not too fond of demonizing belief systems. I try to make an attempt to understand and respect them all.

Edit: Just to be fair, heres a list of similar stuff in the Quran.

I don't think religions are evil. Even Satanism has reasonable morals. But assuming I ever had kids, I wouldn't want them raised believing things like that are justified in any way shape or form. God or no God.

 

 

Turns out the policeman whom they have brutally executed on the ground was also a Muslim

Wow. That's sad.

 

 

 

http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/InspireWinter2013.pdf

His name was apparently on a magazine by AQ as an execution target...I would hope that anyone else on there takes the necessary precautions to protect themselves. Although, looking at the gun control laws in EU, what way is there to protect yourself from these people?

He hade Police Bodyguards that were there when the attackers showed up, they they were killed also. 

 

Standard police in France dont carry firearms.

I'm afraid people are getting numb to this. This is an outrage, and it has to end. It's getting to where everyone just expects it to happen and shrugs it off as "well it was only 12"... "at least no one lost their head"... "it was them, and not us".

 

Muslims are migrating. More into Europe than anywhere else, and they intend to take over. My position became clear on 9/11 when I saw my city of Las Vegas in a single day... vacated. Empty. As in ghost town. The largest tourist city in the world changed over night.

 

There are two kinds of Muslims. The ones that hate you, and the ones that want to kill you.

Declare worldwide, Islam is a form of government and treat it as such. Until we take this dead serious, we will have more deaths.

 

 

Yea that statement is completely messed up. Islam is a religion not a terrorist organization.

In their own words:

 

But when it comes to this disaster, who started it? In his literature, writer
al-Rafee says, "If the woman is in her boudoir, in her house and if she's
wearing the veil and if she shows modesty, disasters don't happen."

—Sheik Taj Din Al Hilaly

I will not blame Norwegian women for the rapes. But Norwegian women must
understand that we live in a multi-cultural society and adapt themselves to it.

—Professor Unni Wikan, Oslo, Norway,

6 September 2001

It is permissible to set fire to the lands of the enemy, his stores of grain,
his beasts of burden—if it is not possible for the Muslims to take possession
of them—as well as to cut down his trees, to raze his cities, in a word, to do
everything that might ruin and discourage him, provided that the imam (i.e. the
religious "guide" of the community of believers) deems these measures
appropriate, suited to hastening the Islamization of that enemy or to weakening
him. Indeed, all this contributes to a military triumph over him or to forcing
him to capitulate.

—Ibn Hudayl,

fourteenth-century Granadan theorist on the subject of jihad

 

 

c

We have the right to kill four million Americans—two million of them
children — and to exile twice as many and wound and cripple hundreds of
thousands.

—Suleiman Abu Gheith

Al Qaeda Spokesmen, June 2002.

Islam is a revolutionary ideology and program which seeks to alter the social
order of the whole world and rebuild it in conformity with its own tenets and
ideals. Islam wishes to destroy all States and Governments anywhere on the face
of the Earth which are opposed to the ideology and program of Islam, regardless
of the country or the Nation which rules it.

—Sayyed Abul Ala Maududi,

founder of Pakistan's Jamaat-e-Islami, April, 1939

The Europeans were once our slaves; today it is the Muslims. This must
change. We must drive the unbelievers into deepest hell. We must stick together
and hold our peace until the time comes. You can't see anything yet, but
everything is being prepared in secret. You must hold yourself in readiness for
the right moment. We must exploit democracy for our cause. We must cover Europe
with mosques and schools.

—Sermon recorded in a Bavarian mosque, Early 21st Century

"These Germans, these atheists, these Europeans don't shave under their
arms and their sweat collects under their hair with a revolting smell and they
stink. Hell lives for the infidels! Down with all democracies and all
democrats!"

—Imam Sheikh Mohammed Abdullah Al-Amari,

Preaching the Friday sermon in a Berlin Mosque, 2006

"They [those who claim Islam is against slavery] are
merely writers. They are ignorant, not scholars . . . Whoever
says such things is an infidel. Slavery is a part of Islam. Slavery is part of
jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam."

— Sheik Saleh Al-Fawzan, Saudi cleric, author of the bestselling textbook, al
Tawheed (Monotheism) and imam of the Prince Mataeb Mosque, Riyadh, 2003
(circa 1423 AH)

  A moderate Muslim will not come to your aid when doing so threaatens his livelihood,life or family.Just like moderate voices in the South could not change "Jim Crow laws" without risking his liveihood,life or family.A small minority with terror tactics kept it going.It ended with a whimper when the US government showed a seriosness in ending it.

 

I'm afraid people are getting numb to this. This is an outrage, and it has to end. It's getting to where everyone just expects it to happen and shrugs it off as "well it was only 12"... "at least no one lost their head"... "it was them, and not us".

 

Muslims are migrating. More into Europe than anywhere else, and they intend to take over. My position became clear on 9/11 when I saw my city of Las Vegas in a single day... vacated. Empty. As in ghost town. The largest tourist city in the world changed over night.

 

There are two kinds of Muslims. The ones that hate you, and the ones that want to kill you.

Declare worldwide, Islam is a form of government and treat it as such. Until we take this dead serious, we will have more deaths.

 

 

Yea that statement is completely messed up. Islam is a religion not a terrorist organization.

 

Please prove that to me. Every day I hear about terrorist attacks in the name of who?  Oh yes... Islam. Why? Because the victims would not live the way their killers decided they should live. It's too much of a risk to not call it like it is, any longer.

 

 

I'm afraid people are getting numb to this. This is an outrage, and it has to end. It's getting to where everyone just expects it to happen and shrugs it off as "well it was only 12"... "at least no one lost their head"... "it was them, and not us".

 

Muslims are migrating. More into Europe than anywhere else, and they intend to take over. My position became clear on 9/11 when I saw my city of Las Vegas in a single day... vacated. Empty. As in ghost town. The largest tourist city in the world changed over night.

 

There are two kinds of Muslims. The ones that hate you, and the ones that want to kill you.

Declare worldwide, Islam is a form of government and treat it as such. Until we take this dead serious, we will have more deaths.

 

 

Yea that statement is completely messed up. Islam is a religion not a terrorist organization.

 

Please prove that to me. Every day I hear about terrorist attacks in the name of who?  Oh yes... Islam. Why? Because the victims would not live the way their killers decided they should live. It's too much of a risk to not call it like it is, any longer.

 

But you still fail to realize that even the majority of Salafists disagree with groups like AQ and IS. Especially IS. Salafists. Do you know what that is? It's what Islamic State and AQ are....

But you fail to realize that their internal disagreements are not my problem.

I'm sure those French families are fully understanding that the "Salafists" had nothing to do with it.

I live and work amongst Muslims. In fact, half my staff are practicing Muslims. Not one of them think that violent extremism is anything less than barbaric. Not one of them think that other religions should convert to Islam. They are all good people, have families like you and I, and want to live a good life.

 

When we start looking at entire groups with suspicion, for the acts of what are essentially a minority, then we are fucked. We are playing right into the hands of these people who seek to create chaos and drive divides that will swell their ranks.

 

Please stop quoting the Quran, Bible, Torah etc. All of these texts have some element of outdated nonsense in them, and their proponents have selectively chosen what to follow and believe for a very long time.

 

 

I'm afraid people are getting numb to this. This is an outrage, and it has to end. It's getting to where everyone just expects it to happen and shrugs it off as "well it was only 12"... "at least no one lost their head"... "it was them, and not us".

 

Muslims are migrating. More into Europe than anywhere else, and they intend to take over. My position became clear on 9/11 when I saw my city of Las Vegas in a single day... vacated. Empty. As in ghost town. The largest tourist city in the world changed over night.

 

There are two kinds of Muslims. The ones that hate you, and the ones that want to kill you.

Declare worldwide, Islam is a form of government and treat it as such. Until we take this dead serious, we will have more deaths.

 

 

Yea that statement is completely messed up. Islam is a religion not a terrorist organization.

 

Please prove that to me. Every day I hear about terrorist attacks in the name of who?  Oh yes... Islam. Why? Because the victims would not live the way their killers decided they should live. It's too much of a risk to not call it like it is, any longer.

 

 

 

You know if you lived during the Spanish Inquisition you would probably think Catholicism was a terrorist organization as well.

 

 

 

After seeing what the Prophet Mohammad 's  followers do to people , I have come to the conclusion that he is not the kind of god that I want . I will stick to the GOD that I have.

 

It used to be that those that died for freedom, died on the battlefield. It seems the battlefield has been brought to them. These French victims are no different. God rest their souls. Let us honor them in the name of freedom. 

 

3T

 

Prophet wasnt a god nor claimed to be one, you need a lesson in history boy.

 

Since you are all here generalising.

 

Bush waged war on Iraq on false premise, then claimed it was a crusade and then said he was guided by God..entire country ruined, thousands upon thousands, that destruction has no equivalent to any violent act in modern history. There you go, religious war, let's talk about Ideologies, you waged war on Vietnam on ideological basis, again it based on a fabricated CB, entire country burned, maimed, thousands if not millions dead. You have audacity to preach freedom to rest of the world? Want to talk about countless ruthless dictators you installed in middle east and South America? How many killed? Do you want to know? Why don't you Google and share the links with us. A nation living under apartheid is sanctioned because it applies to International Criminal court, what justice do you speak of? Each and every netizen spied upon, where is the so called personal liberty you impose through B-52s?  Ousting a democratically elected Iranian government so you can leech cheap oil, where is the democracy you preach from ivory tower? Shell paid over billion in oil spills in gulf of mexico...they paid what..85 million for spills in Africa...what justice? Do you want to talk about colonialism? The greatest instrument of mass exploitation in modern history? Then you come here and claim you're winged angels descended from heavens who have done no wrong? LOL. Oh, the icing on the cake is all these jihadists were propped up by CIA to fight Soviet Union, did you forget that already..it's just 20-30 year old history. 

 

What do you know about terrorism that you and Lys dare bundle me with the lunatics and mass murderers in AQ and IS? You see it on TV and light some candles? I fucking had 3 near misses with my life with 3 terrorist attacks, we've lost over 50,000 people in war against terror, I've seen the destruction first hand and I am lucky to be alive, dont lecture me boy with your selective copy paste context-less pseudo-history. Do you even know what's the system on Hadith, of the link you shared? Do you know how the system of chain verification works? I mean you dont even know the Prophet never claimed to be god, I doubt you know how that system even works, you and I arent even qualified to verify it's authenticity, you'd have to have full knowledge of chains of narration, over 20,000, memorised, with mastry of ancient Arabic and decades of learning and qualification, those are the requirements to preach. Tho, I'll give you that every unedecuated tom dick and harry on every corner is now preaching and spreading anarchy in our society and all kinds of stuff gets online and people take it for granted, there is a system in place, but due to poor governance in much of the developing  countries, that is not enforced, every tom dick and harry Mullah issues a fatwa now, I would'nt pee on these guys and they're the reason why there is this situation, so yes, that is entirely the internal weakness and poor governance on part of Muslim regimes, which are more often than not, corrupt, undemocratic, here for just minting money. 

 

 

You are beginning to bore me with your rhetorical questions. Muhammad said in many places that he has been "ordered by Allah to fight men until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is his messenger."  The way people followed Muhammad and his teachings made Muslims nearly treat him like a god since he was the messenger of God. Muhammad inspired his followers to wage war with the basest of motives. He beheaded captives, enslaved children and raped women captured in battle. If you want defend this malarkey, go ahead. You will be no different from the average confused Muslim who praises Muhammed for "peacefully spreading Allah's message" Go read the Quran and learn something first before you defend evil...boy.

 

Let me first school you on some things [boy] so that you don't spread your ideology, or lack thereof, to the newer generations. Beginning with Roosevelt's "Lend Lease" program, the U.S.A. became a superpower by becoming the world's number one purveyor or arms and military weaponry. We backed every evil but wealthy murderous despot and backed every coup in order to maintain a steady 3 shift manufacturing schedule at General Dynamics, Martin Marietta, Texas Intruments. Lockheed Skunkworks, Honeywell, Rockwell, Pantex, and a thousand other U.S. Corporations thriving on death and misery. The end of the cold war drastically reduced justification and Irangate opened awareness to our secret governments 'under the radar', 'backdoor' weapons dealing. We NEED war. We THRIVE on war. Our strength comes from supplying wars without direct involvement. This is the true purpose and mission of the CIA and other less well know US Intelligence communuity contributors. Now that we are buckling from debt... a massive war is in the making. This is nothing new, ALL nations have done this. 

 

All nations have had religious conflicts since the dawn of time, and it is nothing new today. Take a look at China, one of the oldest establishments of time -- China boasts of a rich cultural history, but religion was a huge factor as with all great nations. Depriving its people of religion isn't just a personal loss for them, nations without religion have no moral base and are doomed to mediocrity. Again, learn your history! 

 

Evil deeds done in hooded darkness, will come to the laser guided light.  If you are a supporter of the ISIS group you should die along with them. Not to mention that I've heard smarter things from a schizophrenic with Tourette's. 

 

3T

 

 

Yes, every ISIS supporter needs to die, the part I'll agree with. Rest of your post is more about my evil > your evil. 

 

 

Nope, the rest of my post was countering your fallacious tableau of the U.S. government and its role in the Middle East. If we are to compare whose evil is the worst, I'd have to hand it to you along with your anti-West rants.

 

3T

For the defiant Orianna Fallaci,

for the brave Bat Yeor,

and for the insightful Claire Berlinski.

 

Most of our best men are women.

 

 

 

 

After seeing what the Prophet Mohammad 's  followers do to people , I have come to the conclusion that he is not the kind of god that I want . I will stick to the GOD that I have.

 

It used to be that those that died for freedom, died on the battlefield. It seems the battlefield has been brought to them. These French victims are no different. God rest their souls. Let us honor them in the name of freedom. 

 

3T

Let's not demonize Islam in comparison to other religions. Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody and ridiculous. The only difference is the times and cultural evolution. Christians can't go around burning witches, stoning homosexuals and launching crusades anymore because religion is dying in the west and things are becoming more liberal.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Salafi/Wahhabi movement is a pretty new thing that popped up in opposition to this global liberalization.  Even most Salafists are opposed to this type of crap. Islam should not be defined by the actions of a few dick heads. That's like defining Christianity based on the actions of the KKK or Westburo Baptist Church or one of the other countless Christian sects that are insane.

 

 

I don't follow your point thatf Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody as modern Islamist extremism.  Did Christianity and Judaism retain its membership by threatening to execute anyone who left their religion? Remember, this is according to the example set by Muhammad.  Does Christianity and Judaism teach that those who were not Jewish or Christian are less than fully human? Muhammad said that Muslims can be put to death for murder, but that a Muslim could never be put to death for killing a non-Muslim. 

 

I am not speaking about all Muslims, but this extremist ideology of hatred towards other religions and killing those that do not believe in "Allah". These extremists continue their Jihad against other religions for hundreds of years, checked by the ability of non-Muslims to defend themselves. To this day, not a week goes by that Islamic fundamentalists do not attempt to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists explicity in the name of Allah. 

 

3T

 

You should read the bible. Both the Torah and Bible specifically state that non-believers should all be killed on numerous occasions. Hell, the bible even tells you to kill your kids if they curse at you, stone your daughter if shes not a virgin on her wedding day, and even exterminate entire towns if even one person among them is a non-believer.

The difference is that while the world has become more liberal, the Muslim culture has stayed relatively the same, because unlike Christianity, Islam cannot be edited or changed. The Quran and Sharia remain the way they were written, unlike the bible.

The west inevitably created this problem when we dissolved the Ottoman Empire. We should have never done that.

This extremist ideology is entirely based on that particular event in history.

 

Whoa, I have to comment on this one. the Torah says that. I've have never seen that anywhere within the Bible. Anywhere. That would be a direct contradiction to what it says. I have never seen any verses in the bible like the ones you describe here Fox Fire. 

 

 

 

 

So, let me point something out about the middle east. Its a completely different culture there then in the United States. Religion is very important to these people and compared to Religion in the United States or in Europe, we are very laid back. There are really 2 type of islamic beliefs. There are those who believe but think they should be nice. There are good islamic people. Then you have the extremists. Like al qaeda. They are different, and the more outspoken or more active people will heard and remembered more than the less quiet ones. That being said, both types thinks the other is despicable and hypocritical. Religion is more important than life in the middle east. Over here, its a laid back thing that doesn't compare. 

 

There is no solution in the Middle East. At least none that "The Western World" could come up with. Because ideals are completely different. But turning our head and letting them work out their problems isn't a solution either. The basic principles that forge who we are, don't hold up to these peoples standards. If we decide just to pull completely out of the Middle East, It would look like some parts of Africa. Absolute Chaos and Genocide. Which could last 100 years or longer there. Our Involvement merely delays the chaos that the middle east is. This area is going to remain like this unless a Group emerges that isn't Extremists from there, and can gain just as much power and support as the extremist groups out there. I highly doubt such a group can emerge. America is merely peacekeepers, who install these Democracies with no backbone or foundation like we have here. I can't think of scenario that we could install any government anywhere with backbone and foundation that can hold up. 

 

War is second hand human nature. Fueled by money, motive, land, and ambition. Nobody goes to war without these things. Go in half heartedly into war, and it can and probably will eat you alive. 

 

 

@Robert, don't worry, Fox Fire really doesn't know. He/She is just talking out the side of their neck -- an easy thing for most folks to do when they have no basis for their argument.   

 

I have come to the conclusion that you are a true defender of Islam if

you keep condemning the Bible, Christianity and every other religion

other than Islam. You are beginning to sound like the Prophet Muhammad

himself.

LOL! Yeah. Ignore my condemnations of Islam.

I really hate how people like you accuse me of being anti-semetic or a terrorist lover just because I point out their hypocrisy.

Listen, IDGAF what religion anyone is. I'm a Taoist. I find all Abrahamic religion to be disturbing in their historical texts. That doesn't mean I find the followers of these religions to be disturbing. My family is Christian. I make a valid attempt to understand all ideals and beliefs. Everything from most adored, to the most hated, like IS or Nazism. I have a respect for people in general and I reject the idea that anyone anywhere at any time is completely good, or completely evil.

The vast majority of muslims I've met or spoken to denounce groups like Islamic State and radical war mongering beliefs. And when I do run into those few who want to rant about how their religion will take over the world, I'll definitely call them out on it. Same way I'll call out any stupid argument, like the one you're making now.

 

 

Wait a minute... at what point did I say that Christianity or any other religion for that nature will take over the world? All I said was that I would prefer to worship Christianity as opposed to Islam, and you chimed in thinking I was making generalizations demonizing Islam as a whole. YOU were the one making generalizations saying that Christianity and Judaism are bloody and ridiculous. Not once did I make a statement like that.

 

Maybe you just need to take a valium to ensure your sobriety and reduce your blasphemy.

 

3T

this thread blew up

this thread blew up

Yes it did... BOOM!... and I would have stood with my English ancestors as a Protestant against the Vatican. Just sayin...

But you fail to realize that their internal disagreements are not my problem.

I'm sure those French families are fully understanding that the "Salafists" had nothing to do with it.

You really just don't understand Islam......

See this is the problem I have when engaging in any intellectual discussion about religion. Those people, like you (no offense), have formed an opinion and refuse to try to understand anything otherwise. I imagine you have a very firm belief in regards to religion/spirituality/morals?

I don't. Sometimes I find it hard to believe that everyone else does. I've questioned my beliefs for as long as I can remember and still do to this day.

 

I often find myself oblivious to my surroundings. Trying to fathom in my own mind how the universe works.

-Steven Hawking

 

I understand that quote. More than I think anyone here could ever appreciate. Although I disagree with Steven on a few things, I think he is a brilliant man. One of the smartest to ever live. I really cant say that I remember a day where I didn't ask myself "why am I here?"

 

So far, in my quest for this answer... I've come to the conclusion that nobody is right about anything. Sure, I'm a Taoist, but the Tao is a super simple book that sums up existence with a few poems, and I often find myself questioning things that Lao Tzu has said. It just seems to be in my nature to constantly question everything around me. And I seriously feel alienated when everyone around me doesn't. It's just second nature to me.

 

I'm sure all the Iraqi families are fully understanding that the American bombs had nothing to do with their children being blown apart....

 

That's how I look at these things. There is no right or wrong. Killing people is killing people, regardless of how you label or justify it.