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[RF-01] Endgame- Iron City Mafia- Mafia Win

GENERAL RULES

  • Votes must be bolded. Unvotes are not required, but can help with clarity. To lynch, 50%+1 votes are required before deadline—no exceptions.
  • You may also vote No Lynch; if the 50%+1 people do so, day will end early without a lynch.
  • In case of a tie, first come first served.
  • Deadlines will be number of players alive-2. Each night will be two-three days.
  • Prods go out after 48 hours of inactivity. If you do not respond to a prod within 24 hours or I have to prod you a third time, I will replace you.
  • If something needs my attention, PM me or bold the word "Mod" followed by what you want to tell me.

DON'TS

  • Do not use the collor yellow. This will be the mod's color.
  • Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes threats, bribes, wagers, promises, "trust tells", alliances, etc. Using knowledge from previous games is perfectly acceptable, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another.
  • Do not talk outside the game thread about an ongoing game except where explicitly allowed to do so by your role/moderator. Likewise, do not use bbcode to hide secret messages - this equates to discussion outside the thread.
  • Do not quote communications with the moderator (in particular, your role PM). Paraphrasing is usually ok.
  • Do not post in the game after you are dead or replaced except for "Bah" posts—no exceptions.
  • Do not edit/delete posts as this is cheating.
  • Do not claim as scum with others, regardless of the truth of the claim. Claiming scum by yourself is fine.
  • Do not pretend to break the rules or encourage others to break the rules.

GAME SPECIFIC RULES

  • Certain roles like the mafia can only talk during the night.
  • Role-alignment changing roles will appear in this game.
  • The moderator has the right to change/modify above rules pending game needs......
  • Have fun and go easy on me!!!

 

 

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I must say that is the scummiest voting/unvoting back pedaling and revoting I have seen in any game i have played.

 

 

I just dont think they would have made mario scum again.

Unvote

Imran had a good defense.

 

 

 

Bold your votes and unvotes emu.

I know that. Was on my phone... Meanie.

 

Back peddling..

Mhm.

Vote Imran

 

 

 

 

So, first the unvote was because I had a good defense. And then the vote comes on again..because..? So either:

 

a. You think my defense was not actually good and you think I am still scum. In that case your first post was a lie and you unvoted because I pointed out one of 3,4,5 is scum.

 

b. You think my defense was good and I am not scum so you unvoted. But then you put it on again because you got accused of back-pedalling. In which case you actually dont think my defense was good so your second post is a lie.

 

Which is it?

Unvote

 

You were quick to jump on my bandwagon. What changed your mind now?

 

Imran I re-voted for you because the bandwagon I was considering joining but waiting for more info. I said your defense was good which it was untill I had the revelation that the shift was scummy and re-evaluated TBR's point. I changed my mind and changed it back I was indescive about who was scum but I now am almost certain that it is you.

 

 

Which shift are you talking about specifically?

 

 

Didnt say the word shift :)

 

 

Bolded and underlined for you. Can you see it now. That was your basis for voting for me. Now again what shift are you talking about? I am not gonna let you claim something and dont run off and ignore it without explaining.

TBR's claims are without basis and his noobness in Mafia is showing through. Again explain the reasons why you are claiming I am in a scum team while you blatantly ignore the scummy moves of the others.

FOS: TBR

 

I was thinking he was townie trying to scum hunt. But the more I read his posts the more it looks like he is a man with a purpose of lynching a townie. I wont be surprised he is a mafia role cop of one of the scum teams. He has found out my role in the night and is now attempting a lynch.

 

I must say that is the scummiest voting/unvoting back pedaling and revoting I have seen in any game i have played.

 

 

I just dont think they would have made mario scum again.

Unvote

Imran had a good defense.

 

 

 

Bold your votes and unvotes emu.

I know that. Was on my phone... Meanie.

 

Back peddling..

Mhm.

Vote Imran

 

 

 

 

So, first the unvote was because I had a good defense. And then the vote comes on again..because..? So either:

 

a. You think my defense was not actually good and you think I am still scum. In that case your first post was a lie and you unvoted because I pointed out one of 3,4,5 is scum.

 

b. You think my defense was good and I am not scum so you unvoted. But then you put it on again because you got accused of back-pedalling. In which case you actually dont think my defense was good so your second post is a lie.

 

Which is it?

Unvote

 

You were quick to jump on my bandwagon. What changed your mind now?

 

Imran I re-voted for you because the bandwagon I was considering joining but waiting for more info. I said your defense was good which it was untill I had the revelation that the shift was scummy and re-evaluated TBR's point. I changed my mind and changed it back I was indescive about who was scum but I now am almost certain that it is you.

 

 

Which shift are you talking about specifically?

 

 

Didnt say the word shift :)

 

 

Bolded and underlined for you. Can you see it now. That was your basis for voting for me. Now again what shift are you talking about? I am not gonna let you claim something and dont run off and ignore it without explaining.

TBR's claims are without basis and his noobness in Mafia is showing through. Again explain the reasons why you are claiming I am in a scum team while you blatantly ignore the scummy moves of the others.

FOS: TBR

 

I was thinking he was townie trying to scum hunt. But the more I read his posts the more it looks like he is a man with a purpose of lynching a townie. I wont be surprised he is a mafia role cop of one of the scum teams. He has found out my role in the night and is now attempting a lynch.

 

OH. let's expand on this one.

"you claim something and dont run off and ignore it without explaining." "He has found out my role in the night and is now attempting a lynch." DON"T LYNCH IMRAN guys, he has a role. "in finger quotes"

Also have you found that scummy post I made?

You have a lot of accusations but not too much evidence behind it. I feel like you hope to get a bandwagon going on someone. Thus done by attacking the player and not too much of his posts.

I will give you that emu switch and switch and switch and so on, though I don't think it to be scummy just more indecisive. 

I also want to point out that Sammy voted for KevinH and thought of him as scum since the beginning, however since there might be two teams of scum, townie points for him might just be interchangeable for scummy points. Now this isn't a FOS, but rather a statement that should be noted. Lyncing scum or scum hunting might just be your job, scum or townie.

 

This day is going too fast http://s3-media1.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/UfkQRi_NE-ZEDIqcsG9c4A/ms.jpg

 

I guess nobody got any interesting information from last night.

 

If there are 2 scum teams and NK that means we have at least 5 bad people, probably 4 if we exclude Kevin

 

Considering how fast Imran's wagon builds up I believe there are at least 1 or 2 baddies in the wagon:

 

TBRaiders, iSocialism, Spaztik Muffin, emudevelopment and mariomario190

 

 

For starters,

 

Vote: iSocialism

While

I do think scum team 2 could have some people voting for Imran, I have

no doubt that scum team 1 (Imran's team) has been completely silent,

until probably your post.  What I do like about this format is scum

players have to pretend they are town, but maybe not too townie or they

get killed by the other scum team.  Good chance Kevin was actually

killed by the other scum team to support that hypothesis.  Was Kevin on

your and Imran's team?

 

 

Now that's a big accusation there.

 

Imran may or may not been a scum, but if he is scum, his wagon is too quickly building up for a scum(it takes 7 to lynch, he is at 5). Ergo he gets townie points more than the others.

 

Also I disagree, if the scum teams are fighting each other they will try to lynch the townies first until it reaches the point where the probability of town winning is minimal.

 

Unless that is your scum team's strategy this round?

 

Vote: TBR

OK. Regarding iSoc, I went back and reread Day 1 posts. There were a couple of things that set off bad vibes for me.First you claimed you were a neighbor of emu, I am not sure if that was regarding the game or something else altogether. That was a strange post.

 

And a few days later comes this:

 

 

Here we go again, we all are so anxiety to lynch someone that we most likely will lynch a townie, without little reason behind it.

 

 

 

That's a pretty good answer Big E but its also the same answer I would expect anyone to make regardless of aligent.

What else is a man suppose to say? I rather have someone else lynch then Big Ego..

Vote; EM

 

 

First you state, people are eager to lynch who will most likely be a townie. It was as is you were covering bases, in the event a townie gets lynched you could say, "I said so". Even in a game where role alignmet s possible and day 1 lynch was almost mandatory. If you stuck to your position though, that would have been less suspicious, but just 3-4 posts later you joined the bandwagon on EM who later turned out to be townie.

 

Also most of your posts were 1-line posts without analysis or any info, just for the sake of posting something to look active. But it was Day 1 and you cant have much analysis on random votes so that is not too much of a problem. But add them all together I found you more suspicious than the others on Day 1.

 

Having said all that, i no longer think you are scum though. I will look closely at TBR, emu, mario and spaztik for 1 or 2 scums in that group.

 

I think Samoos is town as well as Big Ego 9he voted for kevinh). Look back at this post when i get lynched by the noob lynch mob this day,

 

I must say that is the scummiest voting/unvoting back pedaling and revoting I have seen in any game i have played.

 

 

I just dont think they would have made mario scum again.

Unvote

Imran had a good defense.

 

 

 

Bold your votes and unvotes emu.

I know that. Was on my phone... Meanie.

 

Back peddling..

Mhm.

Vote Imran

 

 

 

 

So, first the unvote was because I had a good defense. And then the vote comes on again..because..? So either:

 

a. You think my defense was not actually good and you think I am still scum. In that case your first post was a lie and you unvoted because I pointed out one of 3,4,5 is scum.

 

b. You think my defense was good and I am not scum so you unvoted. But then you put it on again because you got accused of back-pedalling. In which case you actually dont think my defense was good so your second post is a lie.

 

Which is it?

Unvote

 

You were quick to jump on my bandwagon. What changed your mind now?

 

Imran I re-voted for you because the bandwagon I was considering joining but waiting for more info. I said your defense was good which it was untill I had the revelation that the shift was scummy and re-evaluated TBR's point. I changed my mind and changed it back I was indescive about who was scum but I now am almost certain that it is you.

 

 

Which shift are you talking about specifically?

 

 

Didnt say the word shift :)

 

 

Bolded and underlined for you. Can you see it now. That was your basis for voting for me. Now again what shift are you talking about? I am not gonna let you claim something and dont run off and ignore it without explaining.

TBR's claims are without basis and his noobness in Mafia is showing through. Again explain the reasons why you are claiming I am in a scum team while you blatantly ignore the scummy moves of the others.

FOS: TBR

 

I was thinking he was townie trying to scum hunt. But the more I read his posts the more it looks like he is a man with a purpose of lynching a townie. I wont be surprised he is a mafia role cop of one of the scum teams. He has found out my role in the night and is now attempting a lynch.

 

Oh, you were reffering to the one before ok. Well I was refering the shift onto mariomario as scummy. You are trying to drum up more attention onto others like mario who is Town and you know he is town in order to save your own scummy skin. You have not really defended your self even when you proclaim innocence by saying he found your role you dont even RC a power role. Also it shows off your desperation that now you have painted a target on your back to live one more day so if you are a power role you just SCREWED THE TOWN OVER. I urge everyone to vote Imran his scumminess shows.

 

 

This day is going too fast http://s3-media1.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/UfkQRi_NE-ZEDIqcsG9c4A/ms.jpg

 

I guess nobody got any interesting information from last night.

 

If there are 2 scum teams and NK that means we have at least 5 bad people, probably 4 if we exclude Kevin

 

Considering how fast Imran's wagon builds up I believe there are at least 1 or 2 baddies in the wagon:

 

TBRaiders, iSocialism, Spaztik Muffin, emudevelopment and mariomario190

 

 

For starters,

 

Vote: iSocialism

While

I do think scum team 2 could have some people voting for Imran, I have

no doubt that scum team 1 (Imran's team) has been completely silent,

until probably your post.  What I do like about this format is scum

players have to pretend they are town, but maybe not too townie or they

get killed by the other scum team.  Good chance Kevin was actually

killed by the other scum team to support that hypothesis.  Was Kevin on

your and Imran's team?

 

 

Now that's a big accusation there.

 

Imran may or may not been a scum, but if he is scum, his wagon is too quickly building up for a scum(it takes 7 to lynch, he is at 5). Ergo he gets townie points more than the others.

 

Also I disagree, if the scum teams are fighting each other they will try to lynch the townies first until it reaches the point where the probability of town winning is minimal.

 

Unless that is your scum team's strategy this round?

 

Vote: TBR

 

If we have a vig, this is who should be killed N2.  Pretty sure he is just a goon and doesn't have a power role, but the scum is strong with this one.

I am rather suspicious of Imran & Lyner.. and they do seem to be working in tandem. Yet, Imran says he believes I'm town. Lyner (and iSoc for that matter) both backed me up some when I was the lead wagon day 1. TBR has made some of the most informative and helpful posts. We now know almost without a doubt there are 2 scum teams. (assuming Rafay kept the same format, and he probably did)

I think neither Ovid or Spaz have posted Day 2. Spaz has only made like.. 2 or 3 posts, so almost nothing to go on there. Mod if you can please prod those who've yet to post.

Emu seems to be townie. Raugln I just don't know about, not a whole lot to work with post-count wise either.

Kazio is inactive.

Samson I am a little suspicious of, a fair bit of aggression and randomness.. but overall I still get a town vibe. I think that just may be Shaman's style.

That leaves... Mario. If Mario is scum, he is playing way better than last time. He's claiming he's town, he's playing to win. I almost want to reward him for that and give him the benefit of the doubt.. but, when the hard choice has to be made..

He's been supporting almost every wagon, he keeps trying to get me lynched for no apparent reason. Even if what did happened last game didn't happen, he's definitely be near the top if not at the top of my list.

So all in all, if I absolutely must choose, I am going with Vote Mario for now.

e: Made my bolded words blue, so they can be seen better in this wall of text.

 

 

I must say that is the scummiest voting/unvoting back pedaling and revoting I have seen in any game i have played.

 

 

I just dont think they would have made mario scum again.

Unvote

Imran had a good defense.

 

 

 

Bold your votes and unvotes emu.

I know that. Was on my phone... Meanie.

 

Back peddling..

Mhm.

Vote Imran

 

 

 

 

So, first the unvote was because I had a good defense. And then the vote comes on again..because..? So either:

 

a. You think my defense was not actually good and you think I am still scum. In that case your first post was a lie and you unvoted because I pointed out one of 3,4,5 is scum.

 

b. You think my defense was good and I am not scum so you unvoted. But then you put it on again because you got accused of back-pedalling. In which case you actually dont think my defense was good so your second post is a lie.

 

Which is it?

Unvote

 

You were quick to jump on my bandwagon. What changed your mind now?

 

Imran I re-voted for you because the bandwagon I was considering joining but waiting for more info. I said your defense was good which it was untill I had the revelation that the shift was scummy and re-evaluated TBR's point. I changed my mind and changed it back I was indescive about who was scum but I now am almost certain that it is you.

 

 

Which shift are you talking about specifically?

 

 

Didnt say the word shift :)

 

 

Bolded and underlined for you. Can you see it now. That was your basis for voting for me. Now again what shift are you talking about? I am not gonna let you claim something and dont run off and ignore it without explaining.

TBR's claims are without basis and his noobness in Mafia is showing through. Again explain the reasons why you are claiming I am in a scum team while you blatantly ignore the scummy moves of the others.

FOS: TBR

 

I was thinking he was townie trying to scum hunt. But the more I read his posts the more it looks like he is a man with a purpose of lynching a townie. I wont be surprised he is a mafia role cop of one of the scum teams. He has found out my role in the night and is now attempting a lynch.

 

Oh, you were reffering to the one before ok. Well I was refering the shift onto mariomario as scummy. You are trying to drum up more attention onto others like mario who is Town and you know he is town in order to save your own scummy skin. You have not really defended your self even when you proclaim innocence by saying he found your role you dont even RC a power role. Also it shows off your desperation that now you have painted a target on your back to live one more day so if you are a power role you just SCREWED THE TOWN OVER. I urge everyone to vote Imran his scumminess shows.

 

 

So are you saying scum or not scum? In one sentence you say i am scum, the next sentence you say i am a townie power role who SCREWED THE TOWN OVER (I read that as a raging scream with lots of frothing).

 

 

 

I must say that is the scummiest voting/unvoting back pedaling and revoting I have seen in any game i have played.

 

 

I just dont think they would have made mario scum again.

Unvote

Imran had a good defense.

 

 

 

Bold your votes and unvotes emu.

I know that. Was on my phone... Meanie.

 

Back peddling..

Mhm.

Vote Imran

 

 

 

 

So, first the unvote was because I had a good defense. And then the vote comes on again..because..? So either:

 

a. You think my defense was not actually good and you think I am still scum. In that case your first post was a lie and you unvoted because I pointed out one of 3,4,5 is scum.

 

b. You think my defense was good and I am not scum so you unvoted. But then you put it on again because you got accused of back-pedalling. In which case you actually dont think my defense was good so your second post is a lie.

 

Which is it?

Unvote

 

You were quick to jump on my bandwagon. What changed your mind now?

 

Imran I re-voted for you because the bandwagon I was considering joining but waiting for more info. I said your defense was good which it was untill I had the revelation that the shift was scummy and re-evaluated TBR's point. I changed my mind and changed it back I was indescive about who was scum but I now am almost certain that it is you.

 

 

Which shift are you talking about specifically?

 

 

Didnt say the word shift :)

 

 

Bolded and underlined for you. Can you see it now. That was your basis for voting for me. Now again what shift are you talking about? I am not gonna let you claim something and dont run off and ignore it without explaining.

TBR's claims are without basis and his noobness in Mafia is showing through. Again explain the reasons why you are claiming I am in a scum team while you blatantly ignore the scummy moves of the others.

FOS: TBR

 

I was thinking he was townie trying to scum hunt. But the more I read his posts the more it looks like he is a man with a purpose of lynching a townie. I wont be surprised he is a mafia role cop of one of the scum teams. He has found out my role in the night and is now attempting a lynch.

 

Oh, you were reffering to the one before ok. Well I was refering the shift onto mariomario as scummy. You are trying to drum up more attention onto others like mario who is Town and you know he is town in order to save your own scummy skin. You have not really defended your self even when you proclaim innocence by saying he found your role you dont even RC a power role. Also it shows off your desperation that now you have painted a target on your back to live one more day so if you are a power role you just SCREWED THE TOWN OVER. I urge everyone to vote Imran his scumminess shows.

 

 

So are you saying scum or not scum? In one sentence you say i am scum, the next sentence you say i am a townie power role who SCREWED THE TOWN OVER (I read that as a raging scream with lots of frothing).

 

He said IF. I bolded it for you. Also colored it for you. He said IF you were a townie, you just screwed the town over.

  • Author

Vote Count 2.02

 

 

 

Quote

 

  1. Spaztik Muffin (0) -
  2. Master Samus (0) - 
  3. Lyner (0) -  
  4. Kaziocore (0) - 
  5. TBRaiders (1) - Lyner
  6. iSocialism (0) - 
  7. Imran Ehsan (5) - TBRaiders, iSocialism, Spaztik Muffin, emudevelopment and mariomario190
  8. Big Ego (0) -  
  9. Raugln Bludhaven (0) -  
  10. Ovidsidios (0) -
  11. mariomario190 (4) - Master Master Samus, Raugln Bludhaven, Imran Ehsan and Big Ego
  12. emudevelopment (0) -
  13. No Lynch (0) - 

Not Voting: Ovidsidios, Spaztik Muffin and Kaziocore  

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Imran Ehsan is the wagon leader w/ 5 votes.

2 more needed to lynch.

7 more days till deadline.

 

 

Mod comments: I like the way everybody is playing it safe and not jumping the gun. However taking one's time has slowed the game down. I'm thinking of bringing Preston to replace Kaz. Everyone OK w/ that? 

Big Ego, my voting on you has been a joke. I have never really kept my vote on you too long. This seems like and OMGUS vote against me. Go for Preston Joining!

"I was just joking, I'd never actually lynch you" ~ says the guy who put the final nail in EM's coffin.

Here's where I cross my fingers and hope that this game doesn't implode like the last one I joined as a replacement. I told Rafay prior to accepting that I'd be a little inactive this week; I've got family coming in this weekend, so LOTS of time is being spent preparing for that. I expect my activity will pick up more after Sunday, but until then I figure any level of activity is better than none.

 

I know I'll have to go back and do a lot of reading, but I will still ask for a brief summary of what has transpired so far, from the perspective of whomever wishes to respond. It looks like there are two lynch wagons in play; Imran and mariomario. This is an opportunity for both sides to frame the debate for someone with fresh eyes to see if your arguments hold up.

 

It looks like Kaz had not yet voted as of when I replaced him; I'll vote when I have a better idea of what's going on. Getting me up to speed quicker will mean I'll sooner be able to contribute to a more informed debate (and have my vote mean something).

 

-Preston

 

 

but I will still ask for a brief summary of what has transpired so far, from the perspective of whomever wishes to respond.

 

I will be happy to oblige as my lapsed activity could also use a brief refresher.

 

There will be a price for it though (certainly nothing costly), and you'll never realize you've paid it off.

 

Tomorrow, before sundown.  

Welcome aboard, Preston

 

Nobody seems to be interested to join me, eh

 

There goes the next in the priority,

 

Unvote

 

Vote: mariomario190

So, also a random vote, seems to be somewhat like me in jumping on whatever wagon is appealing. After seeing this, you obviously ignore this and choose to do exactly what I did to get votes on me. Seems very scummy to me. Plus, you also voted for TBR, which is also on the Imran wagon. This to me shows that you are possibly protecting your scum buddy Imran. Big Ego. Please understand me. You can't assume. You know what it does. It makes an ass out of you and me. So much for your assumption. Hear me out. For the final time, I AM NEW! I MAKE MISTAKES. THAT WAS ONE OF MY MISTAKES. (I am using caps so you can read it easier.

I give townie points to:

emudevelopment - his correct vote on KevinH has to be awesome scum hunting skills.

TBR - I love his analysis and I like him pointing out everyone's mistakes.

Big Ego - Even though he has his vote on me, I like his method and I'm just getting townie vibes from him.

Scum vibes -

Imran - trying to deflect questions, looks scummy to me

Lyner- looks scummy by defending Imran

Not sure

Pretty much the rest.

Here's where I cross my fingers and hope that this game doesn't implode like the last one I joined as a replacement. I told Rafay prior to accepting that I'd be a little inactive this week; I've got family coming in this weekend, so LOTS of time is being spent preparing for that. I expect my activity will pick up more after Sunday, but until then I figure any level of activity is better than none.

 

I know I'll have to go back and do a lot of reading, but I will still ask for a brief summary of what has transpired so far, from the perspective of whomever wishes to respond. It looks like there are two lynch wagons in play; Imran and mariomario. This is an opportunity for both sides to frame the debate for someone with fresh eyes to see if your arguments hold up.

 

It looks like Kaz had not yet voted as of when I replaced him; I'll vote when I have a better idea of what's going on. Getting me up to speed quicker will mean I'll sooner be able to contribute to a more informed debate (and have my vote mean something).

 

-Preston

 

Welcome Preston! Here's a quick rundown:

 

The bandwagon on me was started by TBR with the following post:

 

 

Imran Ehsan - I am roughly 85% sure you are scum. The only informative post you provided D1 was when you provided your analysis between Hippo and EM, two townies, as to which you felt was more likely scum. Safe analysis when you knew neither was your scum mate. The rest of your posts feel different then when you played a town previously. What stood out to me was a random vote for iS0 along with "His posts looks scummy to me" as your logic. I had just taken notes on every post made up to that point and nothing iS0 posted came across as scummy.

 

This was posted towards the start of the day along with his vote. Following this, before I even got a chance to respond, or even got online, the bandwagon started with votes on me from Iso, spaztik, emu and mariomario. I was 2 votes away from lynch without even getting a chance to post. all the 4 votes on after TBR had the excuse in the lines of "great analysis TBR, he is scum". Basically nothing new but a typical bandwagon for a quick lynch.

 

I saw that the accusations agaist me were basically 2 things:

a. i was inactive on Day 1

b. my vote on Isocialsm, before i voted EM.

 

My explanation to point a. was made in this post

Mt explanation to point b was made in this post

 

However the bandwagoners still stayed on my wagon without even trying to refute my defense. Their respose has been "clap hands on ear and say lalala to my posts, while frothing at the mouth with posts like, he has no defense, his defense is inadequate, he is scum, all his posts are scum". Note that no one tried to say why my explanations where scummy or why the posts i made does not make sense. They were pretty much ignored.

 

od and interesting thing that happened was when Samoos or someone else (?) pointed out that mario was bandwagoning (he did the same thing on day 1, emy quickly unvoted posting "imran's defense is good" followed by a quick unvote from mario. Then when pointed out that that is backpedalling, the heroic duo of mario and emy quickly put their votes back on again. Since then it has been nothing but the kinds of posts from above,  lalalallal, imran is scum from mario and emu with iSO and spaztik gone off to lurk mode. I see no point in responding to those really.

 

Thats the situation so far.

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