So, it seems there's been multiple Islamist terror attacks in Paris, in at least 6 locations, it's all over the news.

 

Maybe it's fucking time to end the tiptoeing and steamroll ISIS into the ground?

Has it been confirmed that ISIS is behind this? At this moment according to the Dutch news, there was a hostage situation going on at the Bataclan theatre which just ended. About a hundred people were held hostage, can't imagine how does people felt during all of that.

Yeah, please cut the "islamist" line out of roulation for 24h. First the incidents need to be resolved, then all them "newspeople" can go ham on it all they like.

Whoever they are, roll them hard.

Yeah, please cut the "islamist" line out of roulation for 24h. First the incidents need to be resolved, then all them "newspeople" can go ham on it all they like.

I think it's a pretty safe bet, If I had money on it, I wouldn't be much worried of losing it.

 

Plus, the attackers at the club shouted "Allah Akbar" so there's that

Edited November 14, 201510 yr by ccabal86

#prayforparis

Death to enemies of Peace. #liveandletlive

According to Hollande it was ISIS. Not surprised, they already said they had agents infiltrating with the migrants. This is probably just the beginning though, this will soon become the norm if drastic security measures are not taken.

 

Yeah, please cut the "islamist" line out of roulation for 24h. First the incidents need to be resolved, then all them "newspeople" can go ham on it all they like.

I think it's a pretty safe bet, If I had money on it, I wouldn't be much worried of losing it.

 

Plus, the attackers at the club shouted "Allah Akbar" so there's that

 

Betting is done for sport, not for "who's the next death".

 

We can discuss and analyse the situation years to come, but the first thing should be to normalize the situation on the ground. There is a reason why (west-)european newsagency's in general took virtual ages to drop the term "IS", its cause we 1) wait for confirmation / 2) don't just intend to flare up views.

 

Heck, the word "possible connection to" is still being used for half a dozen of terrorist affilated attacks on european soil the past decade. The need for some news providers to be judge/jury/executioner is in itself borderline criminal.

ISIS itself has claimed to be behind the attacks. Everything now points in that direction.

 

The question is will Europe's leaders finally pull their heads out of their ass and face the reality of just how disastrous the security situation is. Decades of neglecting to develop military capabilities, lax border controls and immigration policies, and foreing policy failures have led to where we are now. Hell, German and Swedish authorities can't even give a ballpark figure about how many recent migrants they have, let alone who they are. As long as hundreds of thousands of vagrants can come and go as they like all across Europe, you will have infiltrating terrorists and other undesirables with them.

 

So even though I'm horrified at these most recent attacks, I am unsurprised. Furthermore I won't be surprised when the next one inevitably happens, because it's all coded in the weakness of the system.

Well. I'm not entirely sure. Course I live in America. The news yesterday, was the FBI was going to investigate also and the believed initially that Isis probably wasn't the ones responsible. Saying that "too well organized". So they went off and blamed al queda.

 

But if Isis claims they did it, they probably have a hand in it I imagine. I don't believe everything I hear on the news.

 

Isis should be dealt with for sure. But this " airstrike them till they surrender " isn't going to happen. It'll require boots on the ground and that is something people don't want. Sure we can clear out the threat in one country but they'll flee into another. So unless we have the freedom to engage them anywhere, they are unfortunately going to regroup and strike again. I don't see this ending anytime soon.

ISIS itself has claimed to be behind the attacks. Everything now points in that direction.

 

The question is will Europe's leaders finally pull their heads out of their ass and face the reality of just how disastrous the security situation is. Decades of neglecting to develop military capabilities, lax border controls and immigration policies, and foreing policy failures have led to where we are now. Hell, German and Swedish authorities can't even give a ballpark figure about how many recent migrants they have, let alone who they are. As long as hundreds of thousands of vagrants can come and go as they like all across Europe, you will have infiltrating terrorists and other undesirables with them.

 

So even though I'm horrified at these most recent attacks, I am unsurprised. Furthermore I won't be surprised when the next one inevitably happens, because it's all coded in the weakness of the system.

Yes they claimed it, today. Which neither confirms it nor justifies the immedeat "IT's THEM ISIS FELLOWS" some immedeatly spouted.

 

pffft disastrous security situation, if europe's disastrous, I don't even want to describe how you'd call other parts of the world.

 

We have military, we have NATO, we don't need a barrack every other city cause we got rid of that mentality during 2 wars that devastated our lands. Alot of this "mess" was frstly made by the colonizers (which my nation can also be held accountable for, no doubt about that), the sad thing is that the mess is inherited by others that seek to profit from it personall instead of seek to make a coherent society of equals.

 

You want to call EU on there "laxness", well I think "this side" likes our approach more then a "shoot first, wonder who still breaths" some other nations employ.

 

What we have lost is the use of UN peacekeepers (blue helmets) being a force of peace. The only time these days the UN gets mentioned is about their inability to go nuclear on some asshat who might be hurting more civilians under his care then he saves them. Wonder who started that mentality?

Europe has NATO, that's been mostly freeloading off the exorbitant military spending of the US. Problem is, post-coldwar the Americans have lost their enthusiasm for footing our bill. You claim to have sufficient military strength, but I'd like to see NATO mounting even a medium expeditionary operation without US contribution. Defense spendings in the EU are still declining, while everywhere else, they're on the rise. It will end well, I'm sure.

 

As for colonialism, we need to get over ourselves for continuously apologizing for it. It was still a hell of a lot better than some of the regimes that followed, not to mention the failed states where movements like Al-Shabab or ISIS can flourish.

The Iraq war has a lot more influence than colonialism did on ISIS.

 

Regardless, ISIS needs to be handled and taken for seriously and wiped out. Stop supporting ISIS proxies and start supporting those fighting them on the ground. That's step 1. I'm sorry but, you can't just keep on going, creating and funding wars for regime changes and expect the mess to remain contained.

 

This all mess will require multiple changes in policies.

0. Enforce border controls, make it smooth for those holding valid documents.

1. Stop policing the world, enforcing regime changes, supporting aparthied and brutal regimes, overtly and covertly.

2. Money saved from point 1. can be invested to improve border controls, security and prison systems.

3. Kick out hate preachers. Define a line between hate speech and free speech. Extremists and right wingers have exploited this alot and IMO now is the time to draw a line.

4. One time exception on point 1 to knock out ISIS, clean up the mess created by the interventions.

 

Tldr stop playing our throat slasher> other throat slasher, they're all the same. Knock them all out and don't do this again. No lessons have been learnt from Iraqi intervention, same mistakes were repeated in Libya and then Syria. No lessons were learnt from creating and funding Al Qaeda too in the past. The blowback you receive is peanuts versus what the moderate Muslims receive, hundreds of thousands dead in interventions and subsequent mess that follows. Please, do yourself and us a favor, stop using these lunatics as a foriegn policy tool. While what happened in Paris is unfortunate, but moderate Muslims face this on weekly and monthly basis. Offcourse, Rupert Murdoch doesn't offer the same level of coverage. In my view, a death of a human is a death, be it in Paris or be it in Beirut or Baghdad or Benghazi.

 

The moderate Muslims need to play more proactive role, and not let ISIS and Rupert Murdoch's noise drown our voices out. We can all blame others for the mess, ultimately, it is our own internal weaknesses in education and governance that allows outsiders to interfere and non state actors like ISIS to run amok. You got to be strong internally in governance, economy, culture, be whatever it maybe, and ultimately defense. You don't get interfered with if you have solid trade connections and nice missiles, preferably nukes or at minimum, one of those, else you end up like Iran under Shah, or Iraq or Libya or Syria or Vietnam or several Central and South American states etc. Give respect, earn respect and keep your own house in order. Wipe out the extremists, give no excuse interventions. They haven't done anyone any good whatsoever. Wipe out ISIS, wipe out Taliban, wipe them all out, don't let them be funded, don't give any excuses to future Blairs and Bushes. Keep your house in order, make trade more beneficial than war. Its a dog eat dog world, meh.

 

 

 

The perpetrators are known in all these cases. While we can all have different points regarding foriegn policies and the extent of negative impacts, I believe we can all agree that ISIS needs to be wiped out with utmost priority

Edited November 14, 201510 yr by Shahenshah

Europe has NATO, that's been mostly freeloading off the exorbitant military spending of the US. Problem is, post-coldwar the Americans have lost their enthusiasm for footing our bill. You claim to have sufficient military strength, but I'd like to see NATO mounting even a medium expeditionary operation without US contribution. Defense spendings in the EU are still declining, while everywhere else, they're on the rise. It will end well, I'm sure.

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Well we all know what the supposed bad things are for when a group of people get stuff for free...

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As for colonialism, we need to get over ourselves for continuously apologizing for it. It was still a hell of a lot better than some of the regimes that followed, not to mention the failed states where movements like Al-Shabab or ISIS can flourish.

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I consider the mistakes made during colonialism to been made during said timeperiod. Thing is, just saying "it happended in the past" doesn't excuse us from basic human dignity we so hold dear to aid the people who still feel the woe's of said colonial time.

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The Iraq war has a lot more influence than colonialism did on ISIS.

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As I said, 1 lead to the next, stuff doesn't materialize out of thin air, thats quantum physics hocus pocus, not real life tragedy's.

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Regardless, ISIS needs to be handled and taken for seriously and wiped out. Stop supporting ISIS proxies and start supporting those fighting them on the ground. That's step 1. I'm sorry but, you can't just keep on going, creating and funding wars for regime changes and expect the mess to remain contained.

 

This all mess will require multiple changes in policies.

0. Enforce border controls, make it smooth for those holding valid documents.

1. Stop policing the world, enforcing regime changes, supporting aparthied and brutal regimes, overtly and covertly.

2. Money saved from point 1. can be invested to improve border controls, security and prison systems.

3. Kick out hate preachers. Define a line between hate speech and free speech. Extremists and right wingers have exploited this alot and IMO now is the time to draw a line.

4. One time exception on point 1 to knock out ISIS, clean up the mess created by the interventions.

 

Tldr stop playing our throat slasher> other throat slasher, they're all the same. Knock them all out.

0. Works plenty well thusfar, you can't keep every boogyman out nor can you predict which of the current residents turns into one

1. coudln't agree more, bad part is that people also hold the idea that friends should be helped, even if said friends did a boo-boo

2. Money from 1. should be pumped into society, not to keep society even more devided

3. You'd be surprised how many get put before a judge here, it just happens that the internet made borders opsolute (lol word, meh google)

4. clean up should for me be done globally, not 1 pantsy to go out and take all the flak

 

@the rest, all correct, sadly

You okay Betsy? I just heard they are making arrests in Brussels in connection to the Paris attack. Isn't that your neighborhood?

 

As you all know, I am very American. In my view, an attack on France is an attack on us all, and I will stand with my ancestral cousins to the bitter end. I know Americans died there too. ISIS has claimed responsibility, and Hollande has declared it "an act of war"... I really don't know what that means in French. I guess we will find out in the coming days.

 

I am exhausted with these continuous attacks. When a terrorist group does something like this, I can't believe I hear things like, "Well, which terrorist group?... We don't want to blame the wrong terrorist group do we?" I can't explain how stupid that sounds. To me, they are terrorists... different shades of the same flag. I have no problem with the people. I have a problem with a religion that has zealots mass murdering other people in the name of their god. It's like a Satanist cult recruiting acolytes, setting up "chapels" and performing mass human sacrifice while they chant gibberish. This must end.

 

It's not our job to change a religion to be able to live peacefully with us. It's not our job to tolerate a religion until they just get tired of killing us. It's not our job to understand a religion... it's not our job, it's not our job... We don't care, we just want them to stop killing us.

 

When you have a contagious, incurable disease outbreak... you contain it, quarantine it, and burn it out until it dies... or it will kill everyone. I don't see a difference here.

While Belgium may be small compared to other nations, Brussels is still far away. And I heared about it, something about a french citizen living in Brussels hiring the cars used before and during the acts. As for belgium not being "on the ball", this happended just shortly after Charlie Hebdo this januari, but as always it is generally after facts surface that such things happen. We can only hope that there are also interventions prior to the culmination of acts.

 

As for France's reply, well they already had scheduled their aircraft carrier to go to the middle east (one of the supporting corvette's is a belgian one even). The thing is that just outside interference does nothing but stomp out the current "evil" only to instill another generation with the knowledge of "they just come in and do what they like".

 

The middle east will work itself out in 2 ways, firstly and my personal choice: with itself under support with the rest of the world. The second is to "carpet nuke" the place, I haven't heared of cockroach terrorists yet but anything else is gone so that should fix it.

I'd like to add to point "0", border controls are working anything BUT effectively. Right now, Osama bin Laden himself could have hitched a ferry from Turkey to Greece and eventually made it to Germany to be greeted with warm tea and blankets by idiots who have lost their instincts for self-preservation. Good thing the US took care of him, because, boy, would that be an embarrassment...

I'd like to add to point "0", border controls are working anything BUT effectively. Right now, Osama bin Laden himself could have hitched a ferry from Turkey to Greece and eventually made it to Germany to be greeted with warm tea and blankets by idiots who have lost their instincts for self-preservation. Good thing the US took care of him, because, boy, would that be an embarrassment...

yeah the US took care of that, gratz

 

now do tell me, how many "illegal" mexicans are in the US? >_>

I hear it's around 11.5 million people and a good portion of them are hard-working people that pay their taxes. But what's that have to do with the situation in Europe?

something something about borders being badly protected and only vile terrorists entering the EU.

Mexico is not the only country from where illegal immigrants are coming from, but rather the entirety of Latin Amerca. According to studies, a good 3/4 of them don't end up risking the dangerous trip to the US and eventually settle on the Mexican side.

 

Now, would you care to take a guess how the illegal migrant numbers would change if The US Border Control suddenly tore down the border walls, gave up patrols and made no attempts to arrest or detain anyone who casually strolled across the border without bothering to show any documents, while Obama issued a public speech that "all latinos are welcome here with open arms"?

Edited November 14, 201510 yr by ccabal86

I hear two of the attackers so far have been identified as Syrian refugees that came in through Greece. Prepare for much more of this... everywhere they go. Remember they bombed a Russian plane out of Egypt before this... so if you're not ISIS I guess you're fair game. Our leaders better get aggressive quickly, and stop this ignorant, passive, pussy approach.

Mexico is not the only country from where illegal immigrants are coming from, but rather the entirety of Latin Amerca. According to studies, a good 3/4 of them don't end up risking the dangerous trip to the US and eventually settle on the Mexican side.

 

Now, would you care to take a guess how the illegal migrant numbers would change if The US Border Control suddenly tore down the border walls, gave up patrols and made no attempts to arrest or detain anyone who casually strolled across the border without bothering to show any documents, while Obama issued a public speech that "all latinos are welcome here with open arms"?

Anyone who wants to go will go, the journey's difficulty only prolong the time needed. The famous "Wir shaffen das" line was AFTER the flood started, not before.

 

The people "flooding" into the EU these days from the east are many who were in camps bordering Syria/Iraq for as much as 5y, they just gave up on getting back into their home in a reasonable timeframe.

 

I hear two of the attackers so far have been identified as Syrian refugees that came in through Greece. Prepare for much more of this... everywhere they go. Remember they bombed a Russian plane out of Egypt before this... so if you're not ISIS I guess you're fair game. Our leaders better get aggressive quickly, and stop this ignorant, passive, pussy approach.

The papers they are holding, yes. Seeing as most tend to ditch said papers as to not be "stuck" in point of entry, who knows how these attackers got them. Could 5 in 200k be a terrorist? Wouldn't be surprising. It just points that a single line defense doesn't work, you need multiple cogs in a system to filter out any "unwanted" individuals. And even then they might have been "persuaded" in those 3 months to act this way. The 3 direct suicides at the stadium used an obvious different ME then the 5 others going around with AK-47's (but also with suicide devices).

 

Yes get aggresive, yes get moving swiftly and decisivly. Put please, PLEASE, do it clean and correct. The so called "tip toeing around" is mostly meant to halt any collateral damage from occuring (surprisingly few "bad" hits did happen, up until the russians started bombing stuff), you know, the damage done to a society that only prolongs an armed conflict of civilians against authority.

It is indeed ISIS who did this. Why don't the rest of Europe stop carrying about immigrants and just leave them? I see it very ironic that the number of refugees that Europe offer vs the number that America takes in. Only America had like 26-27 people killed by extremists in the past 7 years since 9/11. Europe is such ignorant of their immigration policies.

For those proposing a quick fix of ending immigration, it really is not that simple. People are going to keep trying to reach Europe by sea. And that means if you block their entry, they are still at sea in boats that are not seaworthy. There was an attempt in spring to adopt a policy of not rescuing boats sinking in the Med. It lasted as long as it took for hundreds of people, many times the casualty numbers in Paris, to die in a week.

 

So you either have to let them land or you have to condemn them to death. And then what do you do with them? There are two main problems; 

 

1. The entire of Europe has a long standing commitment to various Human Rights documents that prohibit deporting people who have filed an Asylum claim without considering their claim. These Human Right documents are anchored in the structures set up to prevent another world war beginning in Europe. They are also part of the international collection of treaties that all civilised nations, including the USA, are signed up to. It is not desirable to tear these structures down. 

 

2. Where do you deport them to? You have 100 Syrian Refugees you have decided to deport-to where? Phone up Turkey and say "oi, these were in your camp?" What if Turkey says "nope, no records here" and slams the phone down. Back to Syria? What if Syria refuses to acknowledge they are citizens? Or the bit of Syria the person is from is now under IS rule?

 

Ultimately, aiming to first tackle the refugee issues in Europe is firstly very difficult as it is hard to do without killing many more innocents than have already died. Secondly, it is very important to recognise that the refugee situation is a symptom not a disease in its own right, it is caused by the failure to have a comprehensive solution to the Syria/IS problem.