So, it seems there's been multiple Islamist terror attacks in Paris, in at least 6 locations, it's all over the news.

 

Maybe it's fucking time to end the tiptoeing and steamroll ISIS into the ground?

110k, 1% of current belgian population. Nobody likes the 1%. (sadly I never stated which 1% )

World is not white and black. There are so many shades in between, so many options. Don't present it as a choice between doing nothing and exterminating people (because for example saving those ships does not mean they have to be let into the EU and denying them entry does not mean they won't be helped - there are so many options, you just need to be willing to see them).

Shit has already hit the fan (and it hit it several years ago) and there's no easy way out but there are much better solutions than yours "oh well, let it be". When you smell smoke in your house you don't sit and tell yourself that everything is fine. You start looking for a source because you know consequences.

 

And honestly, DL probably couldn't produce more generic statement than this one. Nothing really to see there, I can hear similar ones in typical politics' speeches. Also he talks funny about God - imagine telling your 3-years old son that has just broke a bottle and cut his hand in a process "well son, thats your problem, deal with it".

Europe is still not trying to deal with the root cause of migration I.e ISIS. Frances response has been to create headlines by doing token bombing on Raqqa and showboating the aircraft carrier.

 

Its the Russians who are going after ISIS oil. Its shocking that for past few months, NATO didn't bother bombing their life lines. Because, for NATO priority was regime change over ISIS. That still seems to be the case. I don't see any major development happening from NATO post Paris. Your governments continue to prioritise regime changes over dealing with ISIS. As a matter of fact, you've supported ISIS by really not doing anything, funding and arming their proxies so they can be an instrument of regime change. That remains the policy.

 

So its really wierd while some of you get all outraged yet but are kinda allied to ISIS vis the action or inaction of your govts.

 

And the conservatives some of you hope to bring in will not be doing anything either other than fueling bigotry amongst local population.

Edited November 24, 201510 yr by Shahenshah

West's stance on Syria probably couldn't be more ridiculous. So self-righteous in judging Assad while in fact they don't really give #$% about common people and are just playing vague politics.

Turkey shot down a Russian fighter that entered their air space. This is bad news.

no lys, this is funny news. (which I might note, belgian news found out ~45min after it happended, "major" newsagency's took 1h)

 

As for the crowd going "attack ISIS = bomb all", well sadly that isn't how the EU rolls, hence offcourse you like Russia.

The only people AREN'T worth bombing in Syria ATM are the Kurds (major respect for those guys btw). I usually hate everything Putin does, but in Syria, they're the ones that actually got shit done. For some fucking reason, nobody else thought it a good idea to blow up ISIS-controlled oil wells for example.

no lys, this is funny news. (which I might note, belgian news found out ~45min after it happended, "major" newsagency's took 1h)

 

As for the crowd going "attack ISIS = bomb all", well sadly that isn't how the EU rolls, hence offcourse you like Russia.

 

EU rolls noone, though they're good with instructing what is the proper banana curve Rolling others is NATO's job and they did "great" in the region turning a lot of countries into model democracies (Libya for instance). They clearly can bomb very well, but they lack perception. In Syria's case they simply can't decide who's "the bestest" democrat out there, because big beards of those gentlemen are obstructing the view.

 

The only people AREN'T worth bombing in Syria ATM are the Kurds (major respect for those guys btw). I usually hate everything Putin does, but in Syria, they're the ones that actually got shit done. For some fucking reason, nobody else thought it a good idea to blow up ISIS-controlled oil wells for example.

Honestly, apart from ISIS noone in Syria was worth bombing, because all problems could be solved via some sort of diplomatic pressure. Russians for sure have the balls to come in with a big bang, though they could use some brains too, not to bomb the living shit out of everything up to the very last goat. Other than that, they're surely doing a lot more to stop ISIS than the West (though without Syrian ground forces results would probably be the same).

And to be fair US has been bombing oil infrastructure...though they didn't seem to be very serious about that. They also state oil convoys were not bombed due to civilians driving those tankers (which is still weak explanation).

You forgot An-Nusra, they're pretty big players too, and just as bad as ISIS

You forget who's fault was this when shit happened back in 2003 when we decided to invade Iraq with no purpose and what so ever. There were no nukes in Iraq and yes there were chemical weapons but not nukes. Nukes would take 5-10 years depending on how great their infrastructure is. 

Technically we created ISIL and its our own problem to fix that. I just say nuke them and the problem is solved. Don't give a shit about this mess. who cares about the oil we can depend on solar energy or water for our resources. Oil doesn't last long and it feels like we are fighting the last remaining drops that are available. 

 

The world is a mess and we can't seem to figure out this problem. 

 

Bomb threat here and there. Forget about it. Just arm up. 

 

no lys, this is funny news. (which I might note, belgian news found out ~45min after it happended, "major" newsagency's took 1h)

 

As for the crowd going "attack ISIS = bomb all", well sadly that isn't how the EU rolls, hence offcourse you like Russia.

 

EU rolls noone, though they're good with instructing what is the proper banana curve Rolling others is NATO's job and they did "great" in the region turning a lot of countries into model democracies (Libya for instance). They clearly can bomb very well, but they lack perception. In Syria's case they simply can't decide who's "the bestest" democrat out there, because big beards of those gentlemen are obstructing the view.

 

The only people AREN'T worth bombing in Syria ATM are the Kurds (major respect for those guys btw). I usually hate everything Putin does, but in Syria, they're the ones that actually got shit done. For some fucking reason, nobody else thought it a good idea to blow up ISIS-controlled oil wells for example.

Honestly, apart from ISIS noone in Syria was worth bombing, because all problems could be solved via some sort of diplomatic pressure. Russians for sure have the balls to come in with a big bang, though they could use some brains too, not to bomb the living shit out of everything up to the very last goat. Other than that, they're surely doing a lot more to stop ISIS than the West (though without Syrian ground forces results would probably be the same).

And to be fair US has been bombing oil infrastructure...though they didn't seem to be very serious about that. They also state oil convoys were not bombed due to civilians driving those tankers (which is still weak explanation).

 

I am getting quite skeptical of this pro-Russia propoganda that seems to have been doing the rounds online. Lots of "only Russia thought to bomb target XXX." Or Trumps inane "they knew about those targets before, why didn't they hit them."

 

It seems the concept of a target list and priorities has gone, and that every available target in Syria could have been hit in day 1 if our generals hadn't been holding back. Thats BS. There are thousands of possible targets in Syria. There are a finite number of aircraft in the NATO airfleet. There are also other considerations, such as trying to avoid civilian casulties or trying to work out if the bunch of kids waving AK-47s in the air are Free Syrian Army, ISIS, Syrian Military, Hezbollah, or some other bunch of kids before bombing them.

 

The idea that the target list isn't empty somehow being a slur on the western airforces, and as a result we must all praise the mighty Russia, really doesn't hold up for me. Plus NATO has previously hit oil fields, so its not like its only Russia.

 

 

Turkey shot down a Russian fighter that entered their air space. This is bad news.

 

Bad? Maybe. Interesting? Yes.

 

Turkey has dared to do something NATO hasn't had the courage to. Russia goes around disrespecting everyone's borders and Turkey shot down their plane to give'em a taste of reality. After Ukraine Russia got a freehand at bullying everyone.

 

Tensions have risen as Russia has deployed troops at Syria-Turkey border. And Turkey has asked for an emergency meeting of NATO. Lets see where this goes.... 

 

Turkey shot down a Russian fighter that entered their air space. This is bad news.

 

Bad? Maybe. Interesting? Yes.

 

Turkey has dared to do something NATO hasn't had the courage to. Russia goes around disrespecting everyone's borders and Turkey shot down their plane to give'em a taste of reality. After Ukraine Russia got a freehand at bullying everyone.

 

Tensions have risen as Russia has deployed troops at Syria-Turkey border. And Turkey has asked for an emergency meeting of NATO. Lets see where this goes.... 

When I reach home, I'll explain why the story of Russia violating the airspace is BS, I'll be citing Turkish sources and the laws of physics just so no one says that it's Russian propaganda.

 

Turks are pissed the cheap oil is gone, they're pissed the turkmens are being bombed, interestingly, Turkmens are located in area under control of Nusra aka AlQaeda, just to refresh everyone's memories, the same organisation that brought you Sept 11, London bombings, Madrid bombings, so on and so forth. Now NATO is all bad-russia, but man, like guys, seriously, cmon, this so transparently bad. How does it feel paying taxes to Al Qaeda.

 

 

...

 

I am getting quite skeptical of this pro-Russia propoganda that seems to have been doing the rounds online. Lots of "only Russia thought to bomb target XXX." Or Trumps inane "they knew about those targets before, why didn't they hit them."

 

It seems the concept of a target list and priorities has gone, and that every available target in Syria could have been hit in day 1 if our generals hadn't been holding back. Thats BS. There are thousands of possible targets in Syria. There are a finite number of aircraft in the NATO airfleet. There are also other considerations, such as trying to avoid civilian casulties or trying to work out if the bunch of kids waving AK-47s in the air are Free Syrian Army, ISIS, Syrian Military, Hezbollah, or some other bunch of kids before bombing them.

 

The idea that the target list isn't empty somehow being a slur on the western airforces, and as a result we must all praise the mighty Russia, really doesn't hold up for me. Plus NATO has previously hit oil fields, so its not like its only Russia.

 

You're getting at this from the wrong side. It's not about mighty Russia...and to say it lightly I'm not a big fan of Russia. It's the fact that West's involvement in Syria is so disgusting that it makes me sympathize with Russia's actions .

West is simply two-faced there. Removing Assad and not ISIS is their primary goal (don't know how it's now) and I'm sure they'd gladly support everyone that's against Syrian regime. Even though public opinion is making it hard for them, they still are able to say with straight faces that Al-Qaeda's branches are the good guys fighting evil dictator...while their closest ally in the region (SA) isn't any better than Assad. It's making me sick that they're talking about justice and righteousness while simply pursuing their dirty political goals.

Turkey wants Assad out. This is their way of escalating the pressure. The problem is... it's Russia, and we will end up having another nuclear stare down just like '62, only Barack Obama is no Jack Kennedy, and Vladimir Putin is no Nikita Khrushchev.

I believe Obama will back down like the little pussy he is, and Putin will take over everything.

You're getting at this from the wrong side. It's not about mighty Russia...and to say it lightly I'm not a big fan of Russia. It's the fact that West's involvement in Syria is so disgusting that it makes me sympathize with Russia's actions .

West is simply two-faced there. Removing Assad and not ISIS is their primary goal (don't know how it's now) and I'm sure they'd gladly support everyone that's against Syrian regime. Even though public opinion is making it hard for them, they still are able to say with straight faces that Al-Qaeda's branches are the good guys fighting evil dictator...while their closest ally in the region (SA) isn't any better than Assad. It's making me sick that they're talking about justice and righteousness while simply pursuing their dirty political goals.

Exactly, I'm usually on the very anti-Putin side, but Western actions regarding Syria are nothing short of disgraceful.

Edited November 25, 201510 yr by ccabal86

The only people AREN'T worth bombing in Syria ATM are the Kurds (major respect for those guys btw). I usually hate everything Putin does, but in Syria, they're the ones that actually got shit done. For some fucking reason, nobody else thought it a good idea to blow up ISIS-controlled oil wells for example.

ooo yes, lets blow random stuff up that hurts everyone when done so. How long did it take for them to stop all the oilwells blown up in the first Gulf War? (1) (2)

 

About that you need to find the supply chain and get that taken out. But I can venture a guess and find Syrian oil in basically any chemical plant on the planet. Welcome to capitalism >_>

 

 

no lys, this is funny news. (which I might note, belgian news found out ~45min after it happended, "major" newsagency's took 1h)

 

As for the crowd going "attack ISIS = bomb all", well sadly that isn't how the EU rolls, hence offcourse you like Russia.

 

EU rolls noone, though they're good with instructing what is the proper banana curve Rolling others is NATO's job and they did "great" in the region turning a lot of countries into model democracies (Libya for instance). They clearly can bomb very well, but they lack perception. In Syria's case they simply can't decide who's "the bestest" democrat out there, because big beards of those gentlemen are obstructing the view.

 

Indeed, we don't roll people/places. Its something we got an almost genetic distaste for, wonder why that happended...

 

The banana curve story is a hoax btw, most beaurocrats wouldn't even know a banana when it hit them in the eye

 

Let the Belgians take over, we got the bestest democracy around

 

 

Turks are pissed the cheap oil is gone,

 

This and ISIS can no longer help them against the Kurds everyone hates. 

ooo yes, lets blow random stuff up that hurts everyone when done so. How long did it take for them to stop all the oilwells blown up in the first Gulf War? (1) (2)

 

Ooo yes, because it's so much better if ISIS just gets to sell the oil unhindered! Don't know about you, but I'll take the carbon footprint over hundreds of millions of terrorist dollars.

 

ooo yes, lets blow random stuff up that hurts everyone when done so. How long did it take for them to stop all the oilwells blown up in the first Gulf War? (1) (2)

 

Ooo yes, because it's so much better if ISIS just gets to sell the oil unhindered! Don't know about you, but I'll take the carbon footprint over hundreds of millions of terrorist dollars.

 

You know, ISIS was selling cheap oil to everyone and I mean literally everyone. Even to those they were shooting at the day before ;P.

They're quite resourceful with actions like raiding Iraqi food supplies and then coming back and asking "Hey, wanna buy some grain?"

 

Indeed, we don't roll people/places. Its something we got an almost genetic distaste for, wonder why that happended...

The banana curve story is a hoax btw, most beaurocrats wouldn't even know a banana when it hit them in the eye

Let the Belgians take over, we got the bestest democracy around

 

That experiment with no government is just a proof we could get rid of all politicians and noone would probably noticed

 

ooo yes, lets blow random stuff up that hurts everyone when done so. How long did it take for them to stop all the oilwells blown up in the first Gulf War? (1) (2)

 

Ooo yes, because it's so much better if ISIS just gets to sell the oil unhindered! Don't know about you, but I'll take the carbon footprint over hundreds of millions of terrorist dollars.

 

Would them losing the oil-$$ stop them? I doubt that, seeing as they basically plundered the bank of Iraq dry previously.

 

nah, its more likely that you just don't kill any ISIS person but you do sicken half the population living near that well for little gain. As Ali so correctly asserted, you need to plug the logistical side of it.

 

 

 

Indeed, we don't roll people/places. Its something we got an almost genetic distaste for, wonder why that happended...

The banana curve story is a hoax btw, most beaurocrats wouldn't even know a banana when it hit them in the eye

Let the Belgians take over, we got the bestest democracy around

 

That experiment with no government is just a proof we could get rid of all politicians and noone would probably noticed

 

shhhuuuush, don't tell them that >_>

 

also, we had still the former government "in resigning" working with "provisoir 1/12th's" and a couple other running

Would them losing the oil-$$ stop them? I doubt that, seeing as they basically plundered the bank of Iraq dry previously.

 

nah, its more likely that you just don't kill any ISIS person but you do sicken half the population living near that well for little gain. As Ali so correctly asserted, you need to plug the logistical side of it.

 

I don't know many physical assets the Bank of Iraq had, but even if it's a lot, it isn't a steady revenue. Some sources claim they made $50M PER MONTH on oil as of recently, so yeah, losing that wouldn't stop them, it would hurt them quite a bit.

 

Would them losing the oil-$$ stop them? I doubt that, seeing as they basically plundered the bank of Iraq dry previously.

 

nah, its more likely that you just don't kill any ISIS person but you do sicken half the population living near that well for little gain. As Ali so correctly asserted, you need to plug the logistical side of it.

 

I don't know many physical assets the Bank of Iraq had, but even if it's a lot, it isn't a steady revenue. Some sources claim they made $50M PER MONTH on oil as of recently, so yeah, losing that wouldn't stop them, it would hurt them quite a bit.

 

Was more talking about this, not about possible current financial gains (which would rather be in the form of maffia-styled protection money).

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/4017/production/_86870461_russian_plane_shot_down_624_v2.png

 

 

Now, as per Turkish Defence Ministry (and vouched by NATO), the plane flew in straight on ~4km wide path and cross it's territory. 

 

But in a letter sent to UN, which was leaked by wikileakes, and corraborated and picked by other sides and whose authenticity Turkish govt has not denied, this is what they said:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/24/us-mideast-crisis-syria-un-idUSKBN0TD25H20151124

 

http://images.scribblelive.com/2015/11/25/70050337-7353-45cd-93d5-e04c64e4521a.jpg

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/russian-plane-shot-down-live-one-pilot-rescued-by-syrian-army-as-turkey-defends-national-duty-latest-a6747746.html

 

As per letter, the plane was in Turkish territory for 17 seconds and 2-3 kms... so first of all, their radar report tells something different from their UN letter, secondly, if Su-24 takes 17 seconds to travel 1.3 or 1.5 miles of territory in a straight line, as per NATO, then Su-24 would be flying dangerously slow (stall speeds?) over a very hostile territory.  This whole story just doesnt adds up. 

 

Then you have Turkey saying they didnt know it was the Russians when Russians had informed the coalition where and when exactly their planes would be. Then it turns out the plane was hit in the rear and hit in Syrian territory. 

 

Oh boy, had it been other way around, this would be making headlines with all the clickbait titles one could think of. 

 

Erdogan needs to cut his losses at this stage and get out. Russians and Americans are in a league of their own in geopolitics and Erdogan is looking like a featherwt in a heavywt bout. Bashar Assad was his ally, now he is the enemy, Kurds are being supported by pretty much everyone much, including his NATO allies, to much of his chargin and more or less have a defacto state. Turkey is bearing the biggest brunt of refugee crises with little or no support from his partners in crime.  ISIS has started to bite the hand that has fed it, you had attacks in Paris, in Turkey and in other areas. Turkey needs to mine, wire, dig a big hole and wall the shit out of the border in South. Erdogan has been played by friends and enemies alike, Turks need to cut their losses now. There is nothing to be gained, Erdogan will be needed again to control refugee movements and to ensure stability and no drama in Syria whenever the chapter closes, until then, he needs to bide his time and secure and build a v.v. hard border on the south to ensure Turkey's own territorial integrity so that PKK terrorist dont get too bold and stay in line. He needs to disconnect from ISIS and it's proxies and focus on PKK terror.

 

If Erdogan is any smart, he should have known that after Iraq, Iran, Libya, Syria, Lebanon, it's Turkey's turn next to be made unstable. That's why I say, if your nation state can build a nuke, build it, and build a credible nuclear deterrence around it or end up like Iraq, Libya, Syria etc. Has worked well for Israel and Pakistan. 

Edited November 27, 201510 yr by Shahenshah

You got 2 ultranationlists squarring off against eachother, in what way do you see either backing down? Not said it would escalate, but dimming down wouldn't happen either imo.

 

Also funny, Russia is hitting Turkey with economical sanctions. Wait a minute, who started complaining when the EU/US did that? ...

 

As for the plane getting hit in Syria, well offcourse, they are firing missiles, not lasers. That and I guess the Turkey pilots were doing acrobatics aswell to stay out of Syrian airspace while doing so.