92 replies to this topic

[Rafay]

The biggest incident of mass shooting in US history. 50 killed (including an officer) and 53 wounded. And this happened 2 days after a singer was killed....

 

Prayers and thoughts to the victims' families. They were there to live life to the fullest and this event occurred.

 

 

But what's the point really to waste our tears if the government and people don't change their ways. We're gonna have that same shit debate that Muslims, not maniacs w/ guns are responsible for this shit.   

 

Unless the government doesn't make acquiring assault rifles and automatics difficult to the point of impossible, I don't see innocents being spared. People who can access guns can very easily fulfill their intentions of terrorism and violence. The weak US govt. has to act and grasp its balls back from the NRA and do the right thing this time.

 

The constitution is not the Bible. People who died 200 years ago made this document. They were people not prophets, everything they said or did can't be perfect. They didn't even believe that tuberculosis was curable or that African-Americans were complete human beings (3/5th).

 

So unless the stupid gun nuts change their ways. I see more of this happening.

[SeaBeeGipson]

While I disagree about the whole gun debate, I do believe mental stability should be confirmed before handing someone any gun.

I own several guns and have never gone on a killing spree, don't really plan on it either. I find the issue here to be 1) mental illness isn't taken care of the way it should be and 2) terrorism does exist. To ignore the terrorist and try to put the blame elsewhere is foolish and opens us up to further attacks.

[onbekende]

From the info I have heared, its more an issue of taking away someone's gun license AFTER they got it first due to the signs of mental issues and plausible criminal activities (him beaten his wife possibly). For all your guys intentions of regulating the gun market, nearly all it speaks about is for when you first receive a license, are there any checks on the gunregistry regarding recent updates on both criminal record or medical complaints?

 

 

Has it even been somewat verified yet that he was muslim? Outside his name and heritage we just have him born in the US itself.

[Lysistrata]

We're gonna have that same shit debate that Muslims, not maniacs w/ guns are responsible for this shit. 

There is no debate... it was a Muslim maniac with guns. Once again you blame the weapon, and not the murderer. Bombs are illegal, but we still had Boston. Your solution is to disarm the good guys? You are correct about one thing... this will continue until our weak Government takes action. They are failing in their primary responsibility, and that is to protect us, and our Constitution.

 

Anyone that wants to blame the gun laws, or talk about hate crime... are just ignoring the problem.

[ccabal86]

From the info I have heared, its more an issue of taking away someone's gun license AFTER they got it first due to the signs of mental issues and plausible criminal activities (him beaten his wife possibly). For all your guys intentions of regulating the gun market, nearly all it speaks about is for when you first receive a license, are there any checks on the gunregistry regarding recent updates on both criminal record or medical complaints?
 
 
Has it even been somewat verified yet that he was muslim? Outside his name and heritage we just have him born in the US itself.

He pledged alliegence to ISIS before the attack

[DarkFox]

People suck.

[Sister Midnight]

The man bought his handguns legally, I haven't heard about the assault weapons.  There is virtually no gun control at all in some states.  You need a license to drive, which requires passing written and actual driving tests.  We have more comprehensive laws about controlling dogs than guns.  Why is gun control so lame?  Because the NRA plays upon the paranoia of the people.  People kill people WITH GUNS!  I am beyond outraged by this horror and we will keep blaming individuals, but the fact is that these are individuals with guns.

 

I wish I was as eloquent as the President of my beloved nation.  I found this on Facebook yesterday, before the tragedy and it speaks to what the real problem is:

 

https://www.facebook.com/newshour/videos/10154247237078675/

[Sister Midnight]

Apropos of all this, the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting took place about 50 miles from me.  From Wikipedia: "20-year-old Adam Lanza fatally shot 20 children aged between 6 and 7 years old, as well as six adult staff members."  Mr. Lanza was not Muslim and he wasn't labeled a terrorist, although I'd call what he did terrorism.  He should not have been able to get hold of those firearms.  That is a big problem here.  And some morons are saying the school principal should have had a gun and that would have stopped him - because there's no way he could have gotten the gun away from her and there's nothing more comforting than a building full of very young children and guns /sarcasm.

 

Crazy Orlando man called 911 to swear fidelity to Isis.  I don't believe he was part of an actual terror cell, but we're still getting info.  There are a lot of crazy people out there, doing a lot of really scary things and people love to identify with causes.  I believe this was a hate crime.  And if he got those weapons legally it is a direct indictment of the lack of gun control in the USA.

[ccabal86]

He doesn't have to be part of an actual terror cell to be a terrorist. In fact ISIS is encouraging "lone-wolf" individuals/sympathizers to commit acts of terror as these are virtually unpreventable.

The problem is obviously two-fold, but once again, both sides will only focus one one, and nothing will get done in the end.

1, It's way too easy to get high-caliber guns in the US. Couple that with the lack of concern for the mental health of the populace and you've got a very dangerous mix
2, Islamic terrorism is real, and it's a growing threat. If you ignore the problem that religion in general and Islam in particular is causing, you are doing yourself, and in fact everyone else a huge disservice.

[Sister Midnight]

Islam is not the problem.  Most Islamic people are peace loving, law abiding citizens.  You can't just blame a religion, that is what Hitler did.  Terrorism is a huge problem.  I'm not ignoring that, I'm just saying that easy access to guns, especially assault weapons is part of the problem.

[Black Rook]

The problem is extremist nut jobs with guns. There's a reason America has such an appalling history of school shootings and domestic terrorism.
I fully agree with ccabals first point but it is short sighted to blame a religion for murder.

[DeathMerchant]

I am not surprised in the slightest this event happened. During the last terrorist attack in France, my wife asked me if ISIS could infiltrate the US and if they were capable of successfully carrying out a similar attack. I looked at her and sadly said that there is strong evidence to support that ISIS/terrorist inspired individuals are already here. Whether they be foreign nationals or brainwashed US citizens, someone somewhere, is already plotting something deadly.

 

Today that fear has unfortunately come true.

 

Taking away my right to protect myself will not stop crazy individuals from acquiring weaponry. Just look at the Pakistan Kyber weapon industry or the Philippines black market gunsmiths. Where there is a demand, someone will step in to reap the rewards of supplying a product. I myself could buy a milling machine and begin manufacturing Ak-47 and AR-15 receivers/parts. Isn't hard to do at all. Or if I wanted something more simple, I could use pipes and scrap metal to build an open bolt Mac10 or design something akin to a Sten. It would be crude, but it would be fully automatic and could be built quickly and inexpensively.

 

Incidences like these make me buy more firearms and ammunition. Not because I fear the Democrat gun grabbers, as I will never surrender what I own, but because I am ready to fight if a situation is bad enough. I train physically and mentally to protect myself, family, and friends. I watch for odd behavior and maintain situational awareness in public. While no one may ever be 100% ready to respond to an attack, I like to think that my background and training will allow me to function and respond accordingly.

 

Stay safe my friends. We live in a messed up world. Learn to protect yourself and even taking the most basic precautionary measures may one day save your life.

[Lysistrata]

Well I just got home from dinner... I had two lobsters and a bottle of Ravenswood Old Vine Zin... so I'm a little effected. Glad to see DM came in and talked a little sanity to the zealots... but I can say it in a sentence... Republicans vote for the world we live in, Democrats vote for the world they wish existed. I think this is where I drop the microphone.

[Myrrdin Emrys]

It is certainly most idealistic to believe that gun control -gun control by which I'm referring to the acquisition of fire-arms legally- is totally possible- rather it isn't even that much probable. 

 

Disagreeing with the idea of guns not being sold to anyone, I just have one thing to say for this point, look, legal acquisition lets the government monitor firearm's, where they are, how many were bought, and it also brings responsibility to the owner and if they didn't, and you say, just stop giving them guns, you know what would happen?

 

Just take a look at anyone that has to protect himself.. they turn into mad-men, they think they're above the law, but that is all speculation, but what is not is the fact that with zero legal selling of guns, people WILL turn towards illegal means of acquiring some, which will be then disabling the gov. to monitor them.. you may argue that what is the need to do so, you already said the gov. isn't doing anything and I'll answer it with a simple "The next government will" or at-least they will have to.....

 

Let's just take a moment here and think about this... it's not the law that's enabling terrorists to openly kill anyone in that country, rather it's the weak administration and regulation of set laws and rules... it's not the act of having access to firearms in the open market, rather it's about the government- who as I see it is responsible for it since they're acting (or trying to) upon the law- who are not implementing those policies... because what good are laws if not acted upon?

 

I am not exactly sure as to how, when, or even if you do this in your country, but are there are laws- that are enacted upon that is- that check-up with firearm owners too see if they're mental stability is still there? If so, good, if not... well then there is a sure need.

 

That is not to say that the individual is to blame here.. the individual either mentally unstable or being rational- at-least in his mind- while doing so (and by rational I refer to him willingly doing so without any sign of coercion or signs of sanity leaving) is right now as I see it unknown.. but it is a fool's action to ignore the individual and blame the gun- or do it the opposite way- as doing such would negate any forms of progress.

 

But to blame the religion once again is foolish. The religion itself has many perspectives, and many oppose senseless killing and violence... 

 

The way I see it, everything is inter-related..

 

Faulty government/weak administration ---------------> Guns being given to the mentally unstable/no check ups to see if owners are sane --------------> this man being in possession of assault rifles and such (which by the way I'm in disagreement with, there is no probable need to give assault rifles to citizens)----------------> and let's not forget the man being influenced by different perspectives------------> to this accident happening.

[Shahenshah]

The irony is US is kinda allied to ISIS by propping up its ideological affiliates in Syria.

You can keep blaming Islamic terrorism, but after you stop propping it up for the political goals, from expelling soviets in Afghanistan back then to kicking out Bashar today. Enemies inside, friends outside, blatant hypocrisy.

You're literally allied to Al Qaeda in Syria, same organisation that did 9/11. Won't be surprised if in few years, US is allied to ISIS to help over throw some guy in region they don't like.

Things don't form out of thin air suddenly. Hate doesn't forment out of nowhere, its funded, its seeded and it's been used for centuries by one or another power. You dont have a problem if a guy you armed and funded to fight Bashar goes in Damascus market and kills 150 civilians.

Can't have it both ways, ISIS and it's ideological affiliates must face total war, they should only be enemies, not political tools for the games. It's simple really.

Guns is the same old debate, Extremism is the same old debate, nobody debates the origins and the how the current wave of extremists are funded, armed, trained and come back to haunt on a poorly thought out foriegn policy of violence and power.

[Sister Midnight]

Guns is the same old debate

No the gun debate has evolved.  Ronald Reagan supported gun control and said he thought guns should be used for hunting.  Since then the NRA has gotten so powerful that just the mention of making it harder for people who are on the FBI watch list to get guns raises screams about government over reach.  it is absurd.  That is not the same old argument.  That is a well organized, well funded propaganda machine.

 

This was a hate crime and an act of terrorism.  This is a man who committed domestic abuse and was on the FBI watch list, and his easily obtained assault weapons made the death of 50 human beings possible.  Other countries, which have reasonable gun control laws don't have this kind of gun violence to this degree, maybe they're doing something we should be doing.  Just looking out at what is working in the real world vs what gun lobbyists are selling to certain naive Americans.

 

The cause of terrorism is hate, xenophobia, despair, and various mental illnesses.  Would ISIL exist if we hadn't overthrown a government that was not responsible for the 9/11 attacks?  Maybe, maybe not.  The whole area is crazy and several countries located outside the region have been trying to manipulate things for years with mixed results.  I don't know the solution, but I do know that hate begets hate so maybe we should seriously consider that.  I don't understand all the machinations and manipulations that have been going on for decades, but as long as they continue, things are unlikely to improve.  Then again, much of this crap has been going on since biblical times.

[Myrrdin Emrys]

 

Guns is the same old debate

No the gun debate has evolved.  Ronald Reagan supported gun control and said he thought guns should be used for hunting.  Since then the NRA has gotten so powerful that just the mention of making it harder for people who are on the FBI watch list to get guns raises screams about government over reach.  it is absurd.  That is not the same old argument.  That is a well organized, well funded propaganda machine.

 

This was a hate crime and an act of terrorism.  This is a man who committed domestic abuse and was on the FBI watch list, and his easily obtained assault weapons made the death of 50 human beings possible.  Other countries, which have reasonable gun control laws don't have this kind of gun violence to this degree, maybe they're doing something we should be doing.  Just looking out at what is working in the real world vs what gun lobbyists are selling to certain naive Americans.

 

The cause of terrorism is hate, xenophobia, despair, and various mental illnesses.  Would ISIL exist if we hadn't overthrown a government that was not responsible for the 9/11 attacks?  Maybe, maybe not.  The whole area is crazy and several countries located outside the region have been trying to manipulate things for years with mixed results.  I don't know the solution, but I do know that hate begets hate so maybe we should seriously consider that.  I don't understand all the machinations and manipulations that have been going on for decades, but as long as they continue, things are unlikely to improve.  Then again, much of this crap has been going on since biblical times.

 

 

It's not about laws, rather it's about the government not implementing them or making sure that the laws which enable citizens to buy firearms are mentally stable.. I sincerely hope the next govt. to come shall have better administration and regulation of laws.

 

I'm not dismissing the fact that countries which have gun control laws which disable citizens from acquiring arms are more successful, but I don't think anyone would appreciate their constitution being impeached..

 

Here, this is what the 2nd amendment reads:

 

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the rights of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

 

..Key phrase being "Well regulated"... and that is most certainly not the case here.

[Fox Fire]

Unless the government doesn't make acquiring assault rifles and automatics difficult to the point of impossible

More violent crime is committed without firearms. Mostly knives. Should we ban knives?  

[PennFiji]

Though I am new to this alliance, I would like to put in my opinion towards this ongoing debate. Though everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinions, I would like to step back and come at this issue in terms of economics. To plan a massacre like this one takes time, planning, and as previously stated a warped mind. I don't believe the issue lies in gun control either. One may thinks it does based on the results of countries like Austrailia and others. That being said, much like hard drugs, the people that seek access to an off market product will ultimately find it. Now, by having restrictions that make it "nearly impossible" to purchase a gun in the US you are not taking away the only avenue that potential terrorists have to a weapon of destruction. Instead, you are taking away a law abiding citizens natural right to own a gun for either safety or leisure without fixing or even limiting anything. That is wrong.

What I will say to the contrary is, privacy and investigative discussions are the ones that need to be brought into scope. The regulations are not the problem, it is the way in which we are dealing with an ongoing domestic terror issue that is more at hand, in my opinion.

[Fox Fire]

 

 

Guns is the same old debate

No the gun debate has evolved.  Ronald Reagan supported gun control and said he thought guns should be used for hunting.  Since then the NRA has gotten so powerful that just the mention of making it harder for people who are on the FBI watch list to get guns raises screams about government over reach.  it is absurd.  That is not the same old argument.  That is a well organized, well funded propaganda machine.

 

This was a hate crime and an act of terrorism.  This is a man who committed domestic abuse and was on the FBI watch list, and his easily obtained assault weapons made the death of 50 human beings possible.  Other countries, which have reasonable gun control laws don't have this kind of gun violence to this degree, maybe they're doing something we should be doing.  Just looking out at what is working in the real world vs what gun lobbyists are selling to certain naive Americans.

 

The cause of terrorism is hate, xenophobia, despair, and various mental illnesses.  Would ISIL exist if we hadn't overthrown a government that was not responsible for the 9/11 attacks?  Maybe, maybe not.  The whole area is crazy and several countries located outside the region have been trying to manipulate things for years with mixed results.  I don't know the solution, but I do know that hate begets hate so maybe we should seriously consider that.  I don't understand all the machinations and manipulations that have been going on for decades, but as long as they continue, things are unlikely to improve.  Then again, much of this crap has been going on since biblical times.

 

 

It's not about laws, rather it's about the government not implementing them or making sure that the laws which enable citizens to buy firearms are mentally stable.. I sincerely hope the next govt. to come shall have better administration and regulation of laws.

 

I'm not dismissing the fact that countries which have gun control laws which disable citizens from acquiring arms are more successful, but I don't think anyone would appreciate their constitution being impeached..

 

Here, this is what the 2nd amendment reads:

 

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the rights of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

 

..Key phrase being "Well regulated"... and that is most certainly not the case here.

 

But that is irrelevant. As the constitution is worded: "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". Is extremely clear. There is no requirement in that for a well regulated militia. Not at all. As it's worded, the people should be allowed nuclear arms and tanks.