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The New Atheist Movement - what we are blabbering about


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#21
The Warrior

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"There is no evidence that would suggest the universe is governed by a supreme being. Therefore, until such evidence becomes available, this scenario is not worth considering. Instead let's set out from what we DO know. Well, that's not much. We need to find out more."

This particular argument does not make sense to me.

 

There is a very real reason to consider the scenario that the universe is being governed and created by a supreme being (God) who loves his people so much that he sacrificed his only Son (Jesus) to save those who accept him. The bottom line is: if Christianity is incorrect (which I do not believe it to be) then we really won't lose anything in the end. However, if atheism is incorrect, you will have lost everything.

 

I would think that it would be worth it for anyone to live their life believing, rather than gamble on being incorrect in the end.


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#22
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"There is no evidence that would suggest the universe is governed by a supreme being. Therefore, until such evidence becomes available, this scenario is not worth considering. Instead let's set out from what we DO know. Well, that's not much. We need to find out more."

This particular argument does not make sense to me.
 
There is a very real reason to consider the scenario that the universe is being governed and created by a supreme being (God) who loves his people so much that he sacrificed his only Son (Jesus) to save those who accept him. The bottom line is: if Christianity is incorrect (which I do not believe it to be) then we really won't lose anything in the end. However, if atheism is incorrect, you will have lost everything.
 
I would think that it would be worth it for anyone to live their life believing, rather than gamble on being incorrect in the end.

That implies that faith is a choice. In my experience we believe, or we do not. If you force yourself to believe in something that your heart simply doesn't accept you are going through the motions, really. That said, in mental health it is considered a strength to be religious as those with faith are less likely to commit suicide, less likely to be depressed, and statistically those who belong to a church tend to live longer with better physical health due to the community the church or temple provides.

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#23
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"There is no evidence that would suggest the universe is governed by a supreme being. Therefore, until such evidence becomes available, this scenario is not worth considering. Instead let's set out from what we DO know. Well, that's not much. We need to find out more."

This particular argument does not make sense to me.
 
There is a very real reason to consider the scenario that the universe is being governed and created by a supreme being (God) who loves his people so much that he sacrificed his only Son (Jesus) to save those who accept him. The bottom line is: if Christianity is incorrect (which I do not believe it to be) then we really won't lose anything in the end. However, if atheism is incorrect, you will have lost everything.
 
I would think that it would be worth it for anyone to live their life believing, rather than gamble on being incorrect in the end.

That implies that faith is a choice. In my experience we believe, or we do not. If you force yourself to believe in something that your heart simply doesn't accept you are going through the motions, really. That said, in mental health it is considered a strength to be religious as those with faith are less likely to commit suicide, less likely to be depressed, and statistically those who belong to a church tend to live longer with better physical health due to the community the church or temple provides.

In part yes. Freedom of will and choice has been given to us. Look at it from a point of view of a relationship instead of condemning religion with Christianity. If your going through the motions you should look at what you believe more closely. Belief at least to me, should involve your heart.

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#24
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"There is no evidence that would suggest the universe is governed by a supreme being. Therefore, until such evidence becomes available, this scenario is not worth considering. Instead let's set out from what we DO know. Well, that's not much. We need to find out more."

This particular argument does not make sense to me.

 

There is a very real reason to consider the scenario that the universe is being governed and created by a supreme being (God) who loves his people so much that he sacrificed his only Son (Jesus) to save those who accept him. The bottom line is: if Christianity is incorrect (which I do not believe it to be) then we really won't lose anything in the end. However, if atheism is incorrect, you will have lost everything.

 

I would think that it would be worth it for anyone to live their life believing, rather than gamble on being incorrect in the end.

 

I don't see any reason to believe that. Equally speaking, if you go through life believing in something that isn't real, following it's teachings, is equally a gamble in the sense that you may be wasting your life and brain power when for we all we know, YOLO.


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#25
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:rolleyes:
 
There were lots of problems with this article. I'm not keen on having a general religious argument over the internet as it is a waste of time. However I shall make a few points.
 
1. It assumes that religion is the cause of all evil in the world, and that the eradication of religion will lead to world peace and nobody using biological weapons. To which I can only reply that the Soviet Union was atheistic, and that it was also one of the most evil regimes in the history of the world. My point is not that atheism leads to Soviet-esque authoritarianism. I simply mean to say that atheism in itself does not solve the problems of the world. I can easily see the Soviet Union dropping nuclear weapons on Western cities were it not for the principle of mutually assured destruction. The real problem is not with religion, but with human beings. Atheism alone will not save us from destroying ourselves with modern technology.

 
First the article doesn't claim that no one will use WMDs if religious fanaticism is eradicated, and it explicitly mentions plain sociopathy. But overal risk of society coming to an end would be somewhat mitigated. Earlier I also argued that very few things promote the in-group VS out-group mentality than religion, and as such, it is a good complementary to other bigoted attitudes (e.g. nationalism)

Theists often confuse the atheism of the Soviet Union with contemporary atheism. I mentioned before that most atheists today are critical thinkers who aren't keen at taking things at face value. This is completely antithetical to the USSR's "Hard Atheism". The reason why religions were persecuted under the Soviets is that they saw it as a competing ideology to Marxism-Leninism, and as a totalitarian state, they couldn't allow that. There could be only one dogma, and other dogmas had no place there. Initially they even tried to bend natural sciences, like biology to their ideology (with catastrophic results). Not quite the critical thinker environment the New Atheists are advocating.
 

2. I disagree with this quote from Bertrand Russell: "You will find as you look around the world that every single bit of progress in humane feeling, every improvement in the criminal law, every step towards the diminution of war, every step towards the better treatment of minorities, or every mitigation of slavery, every moral progress that there has ever been in the world has been consistently opposed by the organised Churches of the world."
 
Honestly, I've held a low opinion of Bertrand Russell ever since I read Why I Am Not A Christian (which was poorly argued) but this quote only lowers my estimation of him. It is an appalling generalisation. Christianity was an extraordinarily positive force in Roman society. For example, babies were not considered human until accepted by the paterfamilias of the family. Unwanted babies were left on rubbish heaps where birds would peck at their eyes and in particular baby girls were exposed. The Church prohibited the practice of exposure, and Christians were known for rescuing such children from the rubbish heaps and in the end succeeded in stopping the practice of exposure altogether. 
 
The evangelical church was also at the forefront of the abolition of the slave trade in the UK during the 19th century. Look up William Wilberforce and the Clapham Sect. The Clapham Sect were a group of Christians who advocated for the rights of indigenous peoples across the empire, introduced a minimum wage, passed laws prohibiting child labour, introduced the RSPCA for the protection of animals, introduced the concept of the 40 hour week, advocated for prison reform, and started schools. 
 
I could go on, but I really can't be bothered. There are hundreds of examples across history where the Christian Church has had an enormously positive influence on the world. To say otherwise is simply ignorant, and I can't be bothered dealing with bigots.

 
I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "Christian Church" as no such organization exists. I'm just going to assume you mean the collective of various Christian organizations from the RCC to the Salvation Army. It would be dishonest to say that some of these didn't have their moments, though you have to wonder how much this positive effect the result of the actions of specific individuals (e.g. Wilberforce) versus the ideology of the oragnization as a whole.

However for every "enormously positive influence" we could list a hundred of equally negative impacts. Just to give a few examples off the top of my head:

  • Crusades
  • Persecution of Jews and heretics for centuries
  • The inquisition
  • Atrocities committed during the conquest of the new world

And just more recently:

  • Enabling of the Nazis by Pope Pius XII, and fascist death squads like the Ustase
  • Close involvement in the Rwandan genocide, and harboring of war criminals

And then we haven't even mentioned general things, like:

  • Mass sexual abuse of children
  • The general opposition to contraception which is a massive contributor the exploding population and prevalence of AIDS in Sub-saharan Africa.
  • The general opposition to scientific progress that may one day make our lives better

Having trouble seeing all this as a "net positive"

 

3. Harris' quote here: "No culture in human history ever suffered because its people became too reasonable or too desirous of having evidence in defense of their core beliefs." Lol. Look up the French Revolution, where shrines were literally set up to worship Reason (no, I am not exaggerating, there was a cult which worshipped the concept of reason) and where thousands were massacred via the guillotine. The Enlightenment was rationalism in a nutshell, and it led to atrocities beyond count.

 

The enlightenment also lead to what we call modern science, medicine and society. It had a rocky start, but that's when the foundations were laid. Without it, the "West" would not have undergone the rapid development that it did.

As for the French revolution, if anything, it's a parable of how a good cause can quickly derail and turn into something disastrous if initially allied factions and their leaders grow increasingly delusional, paranoid and distrusting of each other. It's also a warning that too rapid social change tends not to end well. In this sense the revolutionists may have glorified reason, but they ended up acting unreasonably.

 

There's much more I could say, but again I really can't be bothered engaging with this sort of crap, sorry.

 

I'm really sorry to hear that, because I'm honestly interested in what you have to say.

 

EDIT: UGH! I swear if I die and there is a Hell after all, my punishment will be to sift though quote tags for the rest of eternity
 


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#26
ccabal86

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"There is no evidence that would suggest the universe is governed by a supreme being. Therefore, until such evidence becomes available, this scenario is not worth considering. Instead let's set out from what we DO know. Well, that's not much. We need to find out more."

This particular argument does not make sense to me.

 

There is a very real reason to consider the scenario that the universe is being governed and created by a supreme being (God) who loves his people so much that he sacrificed his only Son (Jesus) to save those who accept him. The bottom line is: if Christianity is incorrect (which I do not believe it to be) then we really won't lose anything in the end. However, if atheism is incorrect, you will have lost everything.

 

I would think that it would be worth it for anyone to live their life believing, rather than gamble on being incorrect in the end.

 

 

You're essentially making a case for Pascal's Wager. Since it's a very well debated topic, I'm not going to argue it extensively on my own, but I find the "Argument from inauthentic belief" closest to be the most compelling. Imagine God asking me why I chose to believe in him, and having to give the answer: "Well Lord, even though I have not seen any evidence of Your existence, I wanted to hedge my bets and opt for the safer choice. But after that, I really learned to love you! Honest!" I'd much rather give the straight answer and accept responsibility for what I believed to be true.

 

But if the requirements of getting into Heaven really are what the Scripture says, then it will not matter either way (I'm sure I posted this before):

 


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#27
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Why do Atheist's throw this video around all the time lmao:

 

i think its cute when people try to disprove religion by essentially becoming religious fundamentalists. by interpreting the text in the most literal way possible, you're no different from ISIS and the westboro baptist church.

this^

 

that video is simply an atheist's interpretation & understanding or lack thereof.



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#28
ccabal86

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I use that video because it illustrates my point perfectly. Scripture is what it is. If you interpret it literally, you get the likes of Westoro Baptist Church and ISIS. AND YET, it's the fundamental work on which your religion is based, the "Good Book", a trustworthy moral compass to which you can turn to for answers.

So how does this work exactly? How is one one part hateful garbage and the other part a display of divine love? As I see it, you can't have it both ways here.

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#29
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I tried replying to your post, but splitting it into different quote sections was too much effort. :v So, a couple of points:

 

1. I am well aware that Marxism and the New Atheism are different. I even said that my point was not that atheism per se led to authoritarianism (although in fact I think it does and we are starting to see creeping authoritarianism in the West already.) I simply meant that the Soviet Union demonstrates that human nature, not religion, is the problem with this world. I am not convinced that a world full of new atheists would be a peaceful one. In actual fact, in the 2-3 months that I spent on Richard Dawkins' website, as a religious person I experienced sheer hate from most of them. (It's nice to see that you're apparently not in that category. :) I might have tried to have more patience in my last post if I had known you were genuinely interested in a decent discussion.)

 

In the end, it's a moot point. New atheism hasn't won the day in the West. In Australia, the vast majority of people are essentially agnostics who don't believe in anything very much, not militant atheists. I don't know what the case is in the US, but it's my impression most people are nominally Christian or else agnostic/ atheist without being militant about it. And on top of all this Western birth rates are plummeting (thanks to the sexual revolution and the abolition of the family) while Christianity is booming in the Third World. I don't think Islam will continue into the information era and we're already seeing many Middle Eastern refugees converting to Christianity or atheism. We are currently witnessing the global triumph of Christianity.

 

2. As for your second point, I acknowledge that atrocities have been committed in the name of Christianity. That's not the question. Bertrand Russell said that every piece of moral progress in the entire of history has been opposed by the Church, including the abolition of slavery. That is factually false.

 

As for the changes I mentioned during the 19th century, Wilberforce was not operating as a lone wolf. He represented a movement of evangelicals who were committed to the abolition of slavery. Look up John Venn and the Clapham Sect. It was Christianity which overthrew slavery. You might also like to look up the commitment of the early Wesleyans to social justice. I have heard it argued that the only reason the UK avoided its own French Revolution was the influence of John Wesley.

 

3. Yes. "The revolutionaries may have glorified reason, but ended up acting unreasonably." Precisely my point. In fact they deified reason, and it didn't end up helping them too much/

 

As for advances in medicine, science and so forth, the Enlightenment never led to that stuff. Look up what Albert North Whitehead or Robert Oppenheimer had to say about the influence of the Reformation on producing modern science and society. Democracy flourished in the Reformation nations: the UK, the US, Canada, Australia, NZ whereas there is scarcely an Enlightenment nation on the continent which hasn't been ravaged by totalitarianism over the past 300 years. (France, Spain, Italy, Germany...) 

 

Modern science was born out of the Christian worldview, because Christianity provides an explanation as to why the universe is an ordered place which behaves according to physical laws in the first place (in that God is a rational and ordered God who made the universe behave according to certain laws, which Christians could then seek out via scientific method.) This is why so many of the early scientists were Christians: Copernicus (yes, Copernicus!), Kepler, Newton, Boyle, Kelvin.


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#30
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Hmpf. I think I should reaaaallly stay out of this. :P Enjoy, guys.


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#31
ccabal86

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I tried replying to your post, but splitting it into different quote sections was too much effort. :v So, a couple of points:
 
1. I am well aware that Marxism and the New Atheism are different. I even said that my point was not that atheism per se led to authoritarianism (although in fact I think it does and we are starting to see creeping authoritarianism in the West already.) I simply meant that the Soviet Union demonstrates that human nature, not religion, is the problem with this world. I am not convinced that a world full of new atheists would be a peaceful one. In actual fact, in the 2-3 months that I spent on Richard Dawkins' website, as a religious person I experienced sheer hate from most of them. (It's nice to see that you're apparently not in that category. :) I might have tried to have more patience in my last post if I had known you were genuinely interested in a decent discussion.)
 
In the end, it's a moot point. New atheism hasn't won the day in the West. In Australia, the vast majority of people are essentially agnostics who don't believe in anything very much, not militant atheists. I don't know what the case is in the US, but it's my impression most people are nominally Christian or else agnostic/ atheist without being militant about it. And on top of all this Western birth rates are plummeting (thanks to the sexual revolution and the abolition of the family) while Christianity is booming in the Third World. I don't think Islam will continue into the information era and we're already seeing many Middle Eastern refugees converting to Christianity or atheism. We are currently witnessing the global triumph of Christianity.

 
It's interesting that you mention Western creeping authoritarianism, because the politicians and parties that are advocates of this (LePen, Orban, Wilders, AfD, PiS) all argue that their measures are necessary in order to protect CHRISTIAN values. They argue that Europe is Christian, and therefore they are defending Christian European vulture from Islam. NO. Contemporary European values may have originated from Christianity at one point, but are actually founded in the Enlightenment. European values rest on secularism. It's very ironic that Islam is indeed antithetical to this, and liberals should be the ones in oppostition and conservatives to give concessions to Islam :D

Atheism doesn't have to win the day, as long as organized religion loses out. And it is losing out. We don't care what individual people believe, it's their business. What matters is that religious lobby groups (which are always supported by some sort of organized religious group) lose their ability to enforce their beliefs on others through policy. If people consider standing FOR or AGAINST something based on considerations other than religion, it's a pretty good start.

On a global scale birth rates SHOULD plummet if we want to have a chance at surviving a couple more centuries Earth's resources will simply not be enough to sustain an ever-growing population of humans, even with the advances in agricultural technology. See my previous post on how Christianity in making matters a lot worse by opposing contraception and family planning in Africa.
 

2. As for your second point, I acknowledge that atrocities have been committed in the name of Christianity. That's not the question. Bertrand Russell said that every piece of moral progress in the entire of history has been opposed by the Church, including the abolition of slavery. That is factually false.
 
As for the changes I mentioned during the 19th century, Wilberforce was not operating as a lone wolf. He represented a movement of evangelicals who were committed to the abolition of slavery. Look up John Venn and the Clapham Sect. It was Christianity which overthrew slavery. You might also like to look up the commitment of the early Wesleyans to social justice. I have heard it argued that the only reason the UK avoided its own French Revolution was the influence of John Wesley.

 
Russel could have phrased it differently, but from a global angle he is still right. Wilberforce may have had a group of faithful standing for abolitionism (though each and every case can be argued how much part exactly did their religion take in this), but elsewhere, slave trade itself was driven by Islamic pirates who had no difficulty in justifying their action in THEIR sacred book. In the end, it's the total tally you need to look at and in this regard, religion did FAR more bad than it did good.
 

3. Yes. "The revolutionaries may have glorified reason, but ended up acting unreasonably." Precisely my point. In fact they deified reason, and it didn't end up helping them too much/
 
As for advances in medicine, science and so forth, the Enlightenment never led to that stuff. Look up what Albert North Whitehead or Robert Oppenheimer had to say about the influence of the Reformation on producing modern science and society. Democracy flourished in the Reformation nations: the UK, the US, Canada, Australia, NZ whereas there is scarcely an Enlightenment nation on the continent which hasn't been ravaged by totalitarianism over the past 300 years. (France, Spain, Italy, Germany...)

 
The USA was SPECIFICALLY founded on Enlightment principles, in fact, almost all founding Founding Fathers were Agnostics, Free Thinkers, Deists and very probably in some cases (like Banjamin Franklin) Closet Atheists. They were highly sceptical of organized religion and drafted the Constitution in a way they did PRECISELY to keep Church affairs out of Public affairs, as they knew nothing good can come of it.

You also mentioned Canada, NZ, Australia - where Christianity was mostly represented by the meek Anglican church and its offshoots. To keep it short, the Anglican church was specifically designed to either keep out of state affairs or give its silent support where needed. It thankfully was (and is) barely a political factor and these countries were clearly better off for it.
 

Modern science was born out of the Christian worldview, because Christianity provides an explanation as to why the universe is an ordered place which behaves according to physical laws in the first place (in that God is a rational and ordered God who made the universe behave according to certain laws, which Christians could then seek out via scientific method.) This is why so many of the early scientists were Christians: Copernicus (yes, Copernicus!), Kepler, Newton, Boyle, Kelvin.

 
You also have to take the Zeitgeist into consideration. At the time the Church (whichever iteration) was still a powerful entity to be feared, after all not long ago they were still burning heretics at the stake. Of course, no enterprising Natural Philosopher (science is actually an invention of a later age), dared openly question the basic doctrines of Christianity. And true, they might not have even wanted to, after all accepting the existence of God at the time was a given. But to say Christianity was a driving force in the quest for knowledge is a fundamental misunderstanding. It's plain old Human Curiousity that was responsible for that. Religion and Faith were ALWAYS a constraint on that, and you see cultural arcs based of to how relaxed religious doctrines were at the time.


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#32
Shahenshah

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I simply don't buy tldr that out of trillionth of probabability of randomness that life evolved here.

I believe in supreme being, you are free to call it whatever you want and I believe in being kind to all living being, humans, or animals and let them choose whatever path. Live and let live.

I don't have a problem with athiests, you're free to believe what you want etc, but most I have come across can be summarised as I>U. It's like they pretend everyone else just walked out of a cave.

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#33
ccabal86

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I simply don't buy tldr that out of trillionth of probabability of randomness that life evolved here.
I believe in supreme being, you are free to call it whatever you want and I believe in being kind to all living being, humans, or animals and let them choose whatever path. Live and let live.


Well, there is a book by Richard Dawkins on the evolutionary probabilities, in which he explains how it works pretty nice and clear: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climbing_Mount_Improbable . But there are many other works that also deal with evolution. The basic concept is that the process as a whole, when you look at the start and end point as a one big step, really does look insurmountably improbable. But in reality, it can be broken down into myriads of tiny steps, each with a a much higher probability. It's also not a straightforward process like A->B->C, but there are some back and forth movements and many, many dead ends. Evolution could have gone very differently if the circumstances had been different.

Another thing to consider, is that crediting a creator for designing and creating the universe raises even more questions than it answers, and you are actually creating a situation that is even MORE improbable than what we suspect today. If you think the evolution of the human eye is improbable, how improbable is it that a creature of such knowledge and power exists who can create MILLIONS of galaxies on the cosmic scale, each with BILLIONS of stars, and yet has the time and energy to decide that grass should be green and the sky should be blue on EARTH, a planet so insignificant in the cosmos that I cannot even find the words to express it. I'll link a flash game that I once saw about scale later if someone wants a demonstration. And that's not even the end of it, because then we have to ask how does this creature do all these things, how does its powers work, and of course, how a creature of this terrible knowledge and power came do be. As far as I know, religion's answer to these questions boil down to "God's ways are mysterious" or in other words "Don't think about it too hard, son".

On the other hand, I'm happy to see your positive philosophy on live and let live, I could't agree more. I would just like to add that lifestyle should always be in INDIVIDUAL choice in the end, and not something that is decided for you, by others. :)

I don't have a problem with athiests, you're free to believe what you want etc, but most I have come across can be summarised as I>U. It's like they pretend everyone else just walked out of a cave.


The world does have its fair share of assholes, atheists are no different. Just don't mistake provocative questions for enmity. Without provocation, there can be no debate and without debate there can be no progress. :)

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#34
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I don't see why an all-powerful being is improbable. Why is it improbable that God would have the power to make billions of stars? As for how God came to be, Christians and Muslims alike agree that He is eternal and has no beginning.


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I don't see why an all-powerful being is improbable. Why is it improbable that God would have the power to make billions of stars? As for how God came to be, Christians and Muslims alike agree that He is eternal and has no beginning.

If God can influence the natural world, then it also must have its roots in the natural world. There must be observable mechanisms through which it acts, however mighty it is. If there are NO WAYS in which this can be done, then one might say it resides purely in the realm of imagination.
 If God however is rooted in the natural world, then the "no beginning" is problematic, as then we have to explain how it can exist, let alone act outside of space time (as it must have before the beginning of the universe).

 

As I said, too many questions, and you're only further complicating your model


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<SNIP>

That implies that faith is a choice. In my experience we believe, or we do not. If you force yourself to believe in something that your heart simply doesn't accept you are going through the motions, really. That said, in mental health it is considered a strength to be religious as those with faith are less likely to commit suicide, less likely to be depressed, and statistically those who belong to a church tend to live longer with better physical health due to the community the church or temple provides.

Faith is almost by definition a choice. I choose to have faith that when I throw a stone it will at some point return to earth. I do not always see it return, but I believe that it does. I believe in the same way people will interpret the things they observe in their life to either support or oppose that which they believe. As the concept of the "heart" is only a subset of consciousness I see no reason why people cannot choose whether or not to believe something, and with time, that may well impact their "heart". 
 

<snip>

It is important to note that in many of the instances you've referred to these events were driven by many factors; land grabs, long existing societal norms, xenophobia, racism, resource acquisition, as well as differences in beliefs.

To claim that the incidences of child abuse which occured within the Catholic church only occured because od religion is just so absurd I don't even kno how to begin. Child abuse has always and likely will always occur globally, it has become systemic within certain political, religious, and cultural establishments. The factor which links all of these is that you get some men and some women who are just fucked up and are into that kinda freaky shit.

I only say this as you've referenced him, but Dawkins is no better moral example than anyone else. Dawkins can be incredibly rude towards people who don't share his view point and is deliberately divisive. Many of the "morals" which him and other atheists accept as obvious or natural have been as a result of the religious establishments which have ingrained them into society. From a purely biological perspective I should remove anyone who poses a threat to myself and my offspring and support those who increase their survival chances. From the perspective og biology, that'd be completely morally justified.

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I don't see why an all-powerful being is improbable. Why is it improbable that God would have the power to make billions of stars? As for how God came to be, Christians and Muslims alike agree that He is eternal and has no beginning.

If God can influence the natural world, then it also must have its roots in the natural world. There must be observable mechanisms through which it acts, however mighty it is. If there are NO WAYS in which this can be done, then one might say it resides purely in the realm of imagination.
 If God however is rooted in the natural world, then the "no beginning" is problematic, as then we have to explain how it can exist, let alone act outside of space time (as it must have before the beginning of the universe).

 

As I said, too many questions, and you're only further complicating your model

 

 

and lets not forget that any interaction, by any religion, is merely hearsay at best. For all intense and purpose the story differs each "connection" with the "almighty", why you sketchy middle men?


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I don't see why an all-powerful being is improbable. Why is it improbable that God would have the power to make billions of stars? As for how God came to be, Christians and Muslims alike agree that He is eternal and has no beginning.

If God can influence the natural world, then it also must have its roots in the natural world. There must be observable mechanisms through which it acts, however mighty it is. If there are NO WAYS in which this can be done, then one might say it resides purely in the realm of imagination.
 If God however is rooted in the natural world, then the "no beginning" is problematic, as then we have to explain how it can exist, let alone act outside of space time (as it must have before the beginning of the universe).

 

As I said, too many questions, and you're only further complicating your model

 

 

and lets not forget that any interaction, by any religion, is merely hearsay at best. For all intense and purpose the story differs each "connection" with the "almighty", why you sketchy middle men?

 

 

Exactly


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either the first is correct or the last, offcourse you also need to take into account what could be a "first" and what could be the "last", for all we know the almighty hasn't spoken to us yet so the "first" hasn't happended yet.

 

That or we might need to start worshipping lightning, a good guess as any for which was "interpretted" as the "first" interaction >_>


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ccabal86

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It is important to note that in many of the instances you've referred to these events were driven by many factors; land grabs, long existing societal norms, xenophobia, racism, resource acquisition, as well as differences in beliefs.

 

Well, as I said earlier, I never claimed religion is the source of all evil, and the other factors you mentioned certainly play a huge part. Religion however, almost always exacerbates an already bad situation.
 

To claim that the incidences of child abuse which occured within the Catholic church only occured because od religion is just so absurd I don't even kno how to begin. Child abuse has always and likely will always occur globally, it has become systemic within certain political, religious, and cultural establishments. The factor which links all of these is that you get some men and some women who are just fucked up and are into that kinda freaky shit.

 

I don't think I ever claimed child abuse in the RCC and other Churches happen BECAUSE of religion. If that's what it looked like, apologies for not articulating that argument better. The point I tried to make is that I find it rather frustrating that a good portion of society regards these Churches and their officials as a source of morality, as solid points of reference for anyone's moral compass, when in fact, they routinely practice, cover up, and get way with deplorable behavior.

 

I only say this as you've referenced him, but Dawkins is no better moral example than anyone else. Dawkins can be incredibly rude towards people who don't share his view point and is deliberately divisive.

 

I don't think Dawkins is rude, I'd say he's very direct and even blunt. I agree that this may be too much for some, but in this day and age of tiptoeing around feelings and egos, I can appreciate a guy speaking his mind directly. Especially if he's proven his integrity and if what he's saying is well-argued.

 

 Many of the "morals" which him and other atheists accept as obvious or natural have been as a result of the religious establishments which have ingrained them into society. From a purely biological perspective I should remove anyone who poses a threat to myself and my offspring and support those who increase their survival chances. From the perspective og biology, that'd be completely morally justified

 

Could you elaborate on this a bit more though? Give some examples please.
 

EDIT: Aw man, these quote tags... :wacko:


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