33 replies to this topic

[onbekende]

 

Nothing is actually universal.

 

 

Some think some stuff is...

 

 

Slippery slope. I'm usually very pro-free speech, but I'm very conflicted about some key issues as of late. If we allow the swastika to be displayed, do we also allow Muhammad's seal? Even though the former is mostt frequently associated with Nazism (in Europe at least) and the latter with ISIS? It also largely depends on context. E.g. no reason to ban them in a video game where you're actually killing Nazis (like Wolfenstein), but I would like to have a word with the guy who puts it on his bumper sricker.

 

 

Think you will find no swastika in german video games.

 

Sometimes it only takes one douche bag to ruin something. This was an entire empire of douche bags.

 

Such douchebags have ruined alot of previously benign symbols. Some do get rehabilitated eventually, or perhaps the "bad stuff" forgotten in history.

[ccabal86]

Think you will find no swastika in german video games.

 
I know. It's BS.

[DarkFox]

Such douchebags have ruined alot of previously benign symbols. Some do get rehabilitated eventually, or perhaps the "bad stuff" forgotten in history.

 

 

Do you see that being possible in our life times? Even to this day people use the swastika as a symbol of hate. The inhuman acts of Nazi Germany will be remembered and the swastika will be paired with it because they picked that as their symbol.

[HackSlash]

The Swastika comes from the Far East and is a symbol for good luck.  As others have pointed out in the late 19th and early 20th century when the traditions of the Far East became fashionable in the west, the swastika was used for the same purpose, a sign of good luck.  Which is why you'll see it on a lot of printed materials from the time.  It was even used by allied pilots as decoration on their air craft during World War One.

 

I have a funny story about the swastika.  A friend of mine, before I get too far, he is a devout Hindu from India.  Remember that, you'll need it later.  When he was attending the University of Toronto, he put up a swastika in his dorm room.  A couple of days later, he had a complaint filed against him for displaying a "racist symbol".  He even had to face a disciplinary hearing, with a potential out come of eviction from the dorm.  It ended well, as once he explained the significance of the swastika in his culture, the matter was dropped and the complainant apologized for her error.  As well, it was explained to the residents of the dorm as well, to avoid any further trouble.

 

However, the symbol the Nazis used is properly called a Hakenkreuz, and aside from shape, it has little to do with the swastika.  The Hakenkreuz was adopted from Norse symbolism.  At the same time (late 18th to early 19th century), the was a fascination with neo-paganism.  This movement was really popular in Germany, especially after the end of the First World War.  There were a number of neo-pagan groups operating in Germany, including the Thule Society which had a lot of future Nazis as member.  People like Julius Streicher (Chief Ideologue of the Nazi Party), and Heinrich Himmler.

As part of this neo-pagan movement, almost central to is, was the idea of runes.  If you look as at the SS, you'll see a lot of runes incorporated in to their uniforms, decorations and unit identifiers.  For example the twin SSs on their collars are Sig runes, or the rune for Victory. 

 

Initially the Hakenkreuz was a pagan symbol for the god Donner (Thor).  In 19th century Germany it became the symbol for Nationalism and Racial Struggle, and post 1918 it was adopted by several FreiKorps (forerunners of the SA and SS).

 

Hitler was very well aware of the popularity of neo-paganism, combined with his pop historical knowledge of German history, led him to incorporate these neo-pagan ideas into Nazi ideology.  This was furthered by Streicher and Himmler.  If you listen to his speechs (which I have, as part of my Political Science/History degree), you'll hear a lot of these neo-pagan ideas expressed. 

Edited by HackSlash, 25 November 2017 - 09:51 PM.

[onbekende]

 

Think you will find no swastika in german video games.

 
I know. It's BS.

 

 

Depends really, I can see why a nation with such a burden/history would want to keep it away.

 

 

 

Such douchebags have ruined alot of previously benign symbols. Some do get rehabilitated eventually, or perhaps the "bad stuff" forgotten in history.

 

 

Do you see that being possible in our life times? Even to this day people use the swastika as a symbol of hate. The inhuman acts of Nazi Germany will be remembered and the swastika will be paired with it because they picked that as their symbol.

 

 

Well the aversion is already lessening, coupled with the increased knowledge about its origin and other uses.

 

Heck even the nazi's will one day be largly forgotten, or rather moved to the knowledge of historians.

[Lord MK]

Nazis will not be remembered.
History doesn't remember the bad guys.

in say, 30-40 years, No one will have even heard it.

[ccabal86]

Nazis will not be remembered.
History doesn't remember the bad guys.
in say, 30-40 years, No one will have even heard it.

True, no one remembers Ghenghis khan anymore. Or Attila the hun. Or Hernàn Cortès.

[onbekende]

Society's historical knowledge indeed fades, hence we have historians.

[Lord MK]

Nazis will not be remembered.
History doesn't remember the bad guys.
in say, 30-40 years, No one will have even heard it.

True, no one remembers Ghenghis khan anymore. Or Attila the hun. Or Hernàn Cortès.

Those names are known by those who dive into history.
No one remembers them in daily life.
Ok, people know these guys' names but nothing more.

[Lysistrata]

No one will ever forget Adolf Hitler, and he will forever be tied to the swastika. He is directly responsible for at least 50 million deaths, and his actions touched just about every country on earth. It's a symbol that breeds hatred and fear whenever it is displayed. Germany is ashamed of their history with it, and most European nations were enslaved under it. It should only be displayed in museums, media, reenactments, and means of educational instruction to ensure that the world understands what happened between 1939 and 1945, so future generations know not to ever repeat it.

 

Whatever the swastika was... it's not that anymore. It is, and forever will be, a symbol of World War II, and mass death.

[HackSlash]

I have to agree with Lysistrata.

 

To state that in "30-40 years no one will remember", is a ludicrous statement to make.

 

The Holocaust, and by extension Nazi Germany, enjoys the distinction of being one of the most well documented atrocities in human history.  At the Eichmann trial in Jerusalem in 1960-61, the prosecution presented over 2.5 TONS of documents bearing his signature.

For those of you who don't know, Adolf Eichmann was a Gestapo Officer in charge of Dept 4BIV, or the Gestapo's Office of Jewish Affairs.  He department controlled the ghettos and was directly responsible for drawing up the lists for transport to the camps.  On Israel's Most Wanted List, he was number four, after Hitler, Bormann and Muller.

Even today on BBC, I read this:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42144186

 

The Nazi state and its activities (to which the Swastika is linked), had a profound impact on international law.

The 1951 UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.   It stems from that period, and has served as a the basis for indictments for Crimes of Genocide.  

Look at what just happened in the IJC or The Hague.  The conclusion of 16 years of trials for war crimes (including genocide), in the former Yugoslavia.

 

Its impact on the Laws of Armed Conflict.  One of the central pillars of the LOAC, something every member of every NATO military has sworn to abide by, is the Nuremberg Principle.  That just following orders, is no defence.

 

Because of the monstrosity of the crimes committed by the Nazis, has made us more aware of the necessity of speaking up and openly condemning these acts.

For example, the Armenian Genocide (1915-1917), 1.5 million Armenians were murdered by Turkey.  Even though we were at war with Turkey, nothing was said, Turkey was never formally condemned (at the time), for its actions.

The Holocaust spurned no response from the Allies.  Yes, we knew about it.  Churchill and Roosevelt were both briefed in 1942 about mass killings of Jews.  There was a wealth of intelligence concerning Nazi activities.

 

Compare that, to the response to two recent genocides.  The Rohingya in Myanmar.  Look how fast the world condemned Myanmar for its actions.  Look at how fast the UNHCR got involved.  People are demanding that Aung San Suu Ky be stripped of her Nobel Prize because she refused to speak up.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/09/aung-san-suu-kyi-nobel-prize/540453/

 

The Darfur Genocide, they have been condemned by the UN and just about every other world government.  The African Union has peacekeepers in the region.

https://www.hmh.org/la_genocide_darfur.shtml

[Lord MK]

What about Timor?
have anyone heard of him?
He have killed way more people.

What about The Rwanda Genocide?
Except certain people well knowledged in International affairs, no one knows about this.
This was a well documented event. Yet..

[Canik]

30-40 years is way too optimistic. I am sure that knowledge of the Third Reich will fade tho. In a thousand+ years (assuming we make it that far) it will be very far from the general populace's minds. 

​If WWIII happens that could speed the process up.

[Lord MK]

WWIII is just over the horizon.
That war will destroy most of the humans.
The ones left will be too fucked up to care about history.