53 replies to this topic

[onbekende]

It will be a PR mayhem for either side, the amount of $$ spindoctors will earn over this will be hilarious

 

Some good faith acts from NK indeed, would make me wonder what they get (or expect) in return. And let me be the voice of the devil and just go with the idea that perhaps they don't want to expend more of the rather limited materials they have for such tests >_> They were basically launched them 1 a month not to long ago, not something sustainable.

[Lysistrata]

Off topic, but here's some current news about where the conversation ended up.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/04/24/calexit-gets-go-ahead-to-start-collecting-signatures.html

[Lysistrata]

Can't even think about allowing a racist, Nazi, Russian colluder, like Donald Trump to have the nuclear codes!

It's the end of the world! We're all gonna die! Wait... What?... Who?...

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/04/26/kim-jong-un-walks-into-south-korea-to-shake-hands-with-moon-jae-in.html

[DeathMerchant]

My jaw practically hit the floor when I read that last night. North Korea has always had a tendency to agree to curtail their nuclear program in exchange for economic relief, and then immediately go back on their word. But seeing Kim Jong Un step over the border and shake hands with the South Korean President speaks volumes. Something very strange is going on in North Korean leadership and I can't help but think this new, radical approach to seeking peace, may actually be the truth. Maybe North Korea has finally realized even with nuclear weapons in their arsenal they are still severely outmatched in a conventional war. And if you want to deescalate a conflict, why not ask for some concessions to sweeten the pot.

[Lysistrata]

This is all happening so fast. Mike Pompeo sworn in yesterday as the new SoS, I guess Democrats didn't want to get blamed with derailing a peace process. I see North Korea building hotels and casinos all along their coast, and becoming the hot new vacation spot very soon. Capitalism is a wonderful incentive. I said about two years ago that Trump may not be the President we want, but he's probably the President we need. Time to end this ridiculous resistance, and allow him to freely repair our Republic.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/04/27/kim-jong-un-pens-message-peace-in-south-koreas-peace-house.html

[Rand0m her0]

@lys, the semi hypocritical paternalism in your political ideals is  kinda luzly. "protecting people from themselves" like *really* that's how you want to justify imposing your ideals?. Also it's entirely fucking halarious that you're complaining to a Belgian about identity politics.

 

Although frankly describing the US political divide as identity politics is hilarious in it's own right, in so much as the current US political structure dates back to a political divide created in reaction to the civil rights movement and the end to segregation along with the moral majority coalition in the 80s. The divide exists and continues to exit entirely because the Republican party in the US strongly favors a section of the religious right as the central pole for the big tent along with a handful of lunatic raw capitalists opposed to the very idea of a federal government. Until the Republicans cease to cater to that 10%-20% of the population to the exclusion of the remaining 80%-90%, the divide will continue.

 

 

On topic: the North Korea meeting is boring. while this is the first time this has happened in a while, it's not the first time this has happened. North Korea will demand as bunch of language that the south will never agree too, there will be a release of a bunch of non binding non enforceable mutually signed statements and then we go right back to where we are with north korea trumpeting political nonsense about how the south and the west couldn't agree to "reasonable" terms. Unless something has occurred that already ends NKs nuclear program for the next several years, NK will not denuclearize. If such an event has occurred, that denuclearized state will last exactly as long as it takes them to get the program back up and running. NK is a totalitarian regime kept in power pretty much entirely as a proxy for China and continues to exist on their sufferance. In that regard, NK has little reason to accept long term denuclearization absent an entirely unlikely event such as  joint US and China military action in order to force it.

[Lysistrata]

"protecting people from themselves" like *really* that's how you want to justify imposing your ideals?.

Buddy... I'm not the one out there trying to twist the US Constitution to fit my lifestyle, or ignore the portions that don't go along with whatever trendy fad that happens to blow air up my pants. There's a reason for every word, and an entire nation ratified it long before we arrived. It would serve you well to learn those reasons, then at least you would understand why they exist. Live by it, leave, or go through the proper means of changing it. California does not run the country. There are many reasons I moved away from my birth state of California 21 years ago, and I'll move away from my current home state if California politics continue to invade my home. I'm not imposing my ideals on anyone... I'm doing everything possible to keep others from imposing their ideals, on me.

On topic: the North Korea meeting is boring. while this is the first time this has happened in a while, it's not the first time this has happened.

In a while? This is the very first time a North Korean leader has set foot on South Korean soil... ever. 65 years of war and hostile hatred ended today. I have high hopes that this is a lasting peace, and our military can come home from South Korea after so many decades of constant threat. Maybe Little Kimmy will find a stronger ally in the USA than China? Wouldn't want to give Trump credit for that one. Obama blamed eight years on George Bush, and now wants to take credit for the first year of Trump. Too damn funny.

[Rand0m her0]

Buddy... I'm not the one out there trying to twist the US Constitution to fit my lifestyle, or ignore the portions that don't go along with whatever trendy fad that happens to blow air up my pants. There's a reason for every word, and an entire nation ratified it long before we arrived. It would serve you well to learn those reasons, then at least you would understand why they exist. Live by it, leave, or go through the proper means of changing it. California does not run the country. There are many reasons I moved away from my birth state of California 21 years ago, and I'll move away from my current home state if California politics continue to invade my home. I'm not imposing my ideals on anyone... I'm doing everything possible to keep others from imposing their ideals, on me.

 

Oh goody, we've got a game of bingo!

 

Alright I'm in a good mood and i need to figure out which bingo card to break out for you so...elaborate I guess? What "politics" out there is erasing the constitution. Be specific 

 

 

 

 

 

In a while? This is the very first time a North Korean leader has set foot on South Korean soil... ever. 65 years of war and hostile hatred ended today. I have high hopes that this is a lasting peace, and our military can come home from South Korea after so many decades of constant threat. Maybe Little Kimmy will find a stronger ally in the USA than China? Wouldn't want to give Trump credit for that one. Obama blamed eight years on George Bush, and now wants to take credit for the first year of Trump. Too damn funny.

 

 

North korea has a very long history of pulling similar shit. Going to the south is new, but everything else we've seen? This isn't the first time the topic of  inter-korean reconciliation has come up. It's not even the first time in either of our lifetimes. I'll be pleasantly surprised if it happens but north korea has a history of being the international diplomacy equivalent to someone's cheating asshole ex asking to get back together but only if *you* promise to change. 

 

North korea has reneged on almost every single agreement made, and it's leadership has more in common with organized crime than a functioning government. I'll be surprised if NK actually agrees to denuclearize on any reasonable terms. I'll be even more surprised if it sticks with it any longer than  it takes for whatever initial concessions it gets to expire. 

 

Also the fact you seem to think NK finding an ally in America is...honestly disturbing. The only thing the NK government deserves to find is a long rope and a short drop. 

[Lysistrata]

Oh goody, we've got a game of bingo! Alright I'm in a good mood and i need to figure out which bingo card to break out for you so...elaborate I guess? What "politics" out there is erasing the constitution. Be specific

Are you seriously asking me to list all the left wing Progressive organizations and comment specifically which Amendments they are attacking and actively attempting to change? I think you're smarter than that. Maybe you want me to do all the work for you. Want me to hook you up with all the right people? I don't have that kind of time for this, but you can start with the name "Democrat". Democrats believe in Democracy. Which means they believe in "Majority Rule". Get the most votes, and it's law. Sounds good on it's face, but if you dig a little deeper you will see that it actually means... "Mob Rule"... where 51% can crush the rights of the other 49%. History will show you that staying the path of mob rule leads to Socialism, poverty, misery, rebellion, and war. Progressives want to make everyone the same... and contrary to what they want, it will never change that all people have differences. Do you really believe that the 21st century has put all that to rest?

North korea has a very long history of pulling similar shit.

You are correct. But I have hope that countries can change with new leadership. Sometimes the new leadership changes things badly... Venezuela?  Sometimes new leadership changes things for good... Germany? Let's give Little Kimmy a chance.

[onbekende]

Off topic, but here's some current news about where the conversation ended up.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/04/24/calexit-gets-go-ahead-to-start-collecting-signatures.html

 

Meh, never liked independence movements, definatly when they are coming from an economical background. The weak trying to get away from the oppressors I can understand, the strong going away from the weak cause of basic narcissism is beyond me.

 

And while I understand that further globalization isn't an end goal to strive for, I definatly don't want further city states propping up.

 

My jaw practically hit the floor when I read that last night. North Korea has always had a tendency to agree to curtail their nuclear program in exchange for economic relief, and then immediately go back on their word. But seeing Kim Jong Un step over the border and shake hands with the South Korean President speaks volumes. Something very strange is going on in North Korean leadership and I can't help but think this new, radical approach to seeking peace, may actually be the truth. Maybe North Korea has finally realized even with nuclear weapons in their arsenal they are still severely outmatched in a conventional war. And if you want to deescalate a conflict, why not ask for some concessions to sweeten the pot.

 

NK nuke program is a direct responce to the USA. As such NK will denuclearize when the US pulls back all its nuclear capability from SK. NK never needed nukes to deter SK, it had enough mortars on Seoul to level that place for decades...

 

As I said before, before the nukes time was the major issue for NK but now it is it's best ally. They will hand out peacemeal offers, show their best side and be able to stay excisting just by virtue of letting go when they actually never needed in the first place (nukes).

 

The only thing that will change is the signing of a peace treaty in exchange for the present ceasefire. Anything else? Nope.

 

And yes claiming this is a Trump thing is hilarious, they would have played out the same scenario whoever moved into the White House.

[Rand0m her0]

Are you seriously asking me to list all the left wing Progressive organizations and comment specifically which Amendments they are attacking and actively attempting to change? I think you're smarter than that. Maybe you want me to do all the work for you. Want me to hook you up with all the right people? I don't have that kind of time for this, but you can start with the name "Democrat". Democrats believe in Democracy. Which means they believe in "Majority Rule". Get the most votes, and it's law. Sounds good on it's face, but if you dig a little deeper you will see that it actually means... "Mob Rule"... where 51% can crush the rights of the other 49%. History will show you that staying the path of mob rule leads to Socialism, poverty, misery, rebellion, and war. Progressives want to make everyone the same... and contrary to what they want, it will never change that all people have differences. Do you really believe that the 21st century has put all that to rest?

 

 

Sorry, thought I used the words  "be specific". Go on, list some specific examples. Cause if we wanted to listen to broad an unsupported assertions about "THE CONSTITUTION IS UNDER ATTACK" we could go listen to alex jones. At least then we might find out what's really making the frogs gay. 

 

I'd recommend staying away from the 2nd though if you want to build an argument off the supposed immutable and perfect nature to the US constitution. There's kinda been some widely diverging interpretations of that in the past, and whatever position you care to take, we can find older precedent that disagrees. Gun Control in the 18th century USA is a really fun topic, and the heller decision was a dramatic departure from the historical interpretation of the 2nd amendment. Also it's the free space on a lot of this bingo cards....

 

 

 

 

You are correct. But I have hope that countries can change with new leadership. Sometimes the new leadership changes things badly... Venezuela?  Sometimes new leadership changes things for good... Germany? Let's give Little Kimmy a chance.

 

 

" Little Kimmy" is a mass murdering fuck. he's not some teenager, dudes nearly fucking 40. He's a beneficiary and prime contributor to north korea's bullshit and he's been it's leader for more than half a decade. Do not even attempt to minimize his role in that shit. 

 

 

NK nuke program is a direct responce to the USA. As such NK will denuclearize when the US pulls back all its nuclear capability from SK. NK never needed nukes to deter SK, it had enough mortars on Seoul to level that place for decades...

 

 

 

NK doesn't even need that to deter the south (and it's question if they can even make that deterrent work). NKs military exists because it's a way to maintain local control, and a fantastic source of grift for political elites to enrich themselves, not to deter the south.

 

NK is an unstable shitshow of a country only held together by force of arms. If anyone kicks over the political leadership there, the entire region implodes into a massive humanitarian and economic crisis. SK has zero interest in military action against the north outside of self defense. Taking any aggressive action would to the political and economic equivalent of shooting themselves in the dick...with the main gun of one of their K2s.  
 

[onbekende]

ooo sure, as with any propaganda run country the army is just their to ward of imaginary enemies. Was more trying to lean into the inevitable "US has to retract its nukes from SK" line that will be the center point of upcomming talks. Talks which stopped being about "humanitarian" topics and will now solely be about NK's military complex. You'd wonder why the US is even wanting to talk to them nowadays, they can't claim "the greater good" anymore if the only thing you care about is the green shining objects

[Lysistrata]

Sorry, thought I used the words "be specific". Go on, list some specific examples.

I fear taking this thread too far off topic, so I won't get too detailed, but I don't have to.

 

There is a reason you have a desire to stay away from the 2nd Amendment and it's because that's the Holy Grail for Progressives. The 2nd Amendment is the one part of the Constitution that enforces everything else. Pretty much says "You will not break the promises you have made here under penalty of we will blow your head off if you do".

 

You are a Democrat, and the party has been hijacked by Progressives, which is a more acceptable and cooler name of Socialists. What you believe in is an all powerful Federal Government, or really any government that can legislate the law of the land on everyone that lives in the USA. The US Constitution prevents Progressives from going all the way... Progressives have already succeeded in changing much... but they can't "seal the deal" because the Constitution is firmly blocking their way.

 

The US Constitution is a set of restrictions, specifically limiting what the Federal Government has the power to do. It does this by specifically declaring, in detail, that Congress cannot do this, or that. This infuriates Progressives, and they do everything they possibly can to get around it. They would really rather just dustbin the whole document, and draw up their own new version. Can't do that without disarming the population, because Progressives can't rule the country if they're dead.

[Rand0m her0]

250 words of not answering the question. Spectacular. This is only getting off topic because you refuse to support your point. 

 

And no, you're the one floating the "the constitution is under attack!" argument. I'm recommending avoiding the 2nd because the Heller decision  and much of what the 2nd amendment represents in the USA today does not date back to the "wisdom" of the founding fathers, but instead dates back to 2008

 

 I'm not the one out there trying to twist the US Constitution to fit my lifestyle, or ignore the portions that don't go along with whatever trendy fad that happens to blow air up my pants. There's a reason for every word, and an entire nation ratified it long before we arrived. 

 

Even if you agree with and like the Heller decision, basing an argument in support of that quote there (especially the bit bit i've emphasized) on something that happened all of 9 years ago would be something of a poor rhetorical choice. Also any topic in which common talking points can be refuted by quoting Scalia of all people may not be a good one for you. Bonus points for the second not even arising out of wisdom for the common man but out of  Madison looking to appease states worried that congress would nationalize state militias and then invade them. 

 

Anyways, you're the one floating such ridiculous theories. Leave the waffling to the belgian and start giving examples of non fringe groups. Cause at this point I'm not sure you can. 

 

 

 

You are a Democrat, and the party has been hijacked by Progressives, which is a more acceptable and cooler name of Socialists.

 

[DeathMerchant]

I agree with Lysistrata, on the Democrat party getting hijacked by Progressives. It all happened circa 2009 when the Democrat party went from semi moderate to far left. And as a response, a year later the Republican party transitioned from semi moderate to taking steps in the direction farther right. Both parties have since remained on the extreme polar opposites.

I distinctly remembering this occurring as back in October 2010, I participated in an undercover drinking sting operation with the NYS Police. For those who do not know, Troopers with high seniority, Sergeants, Lieutenants, and other high ranking Officers, are largely Democrats. During this Operation there was a moment where the higher seniority Troopers and Sergeants began talking politics. To paraphrase it went like this, "What happened to our Federal Government and our Party? We went from Moderates to far left politics in less than a year. Something has to change soon, if the country continues down this route things wont be good". One month later things changed when the Republicans gained control of the House. Even hard line Democrats that fully supported their political party understood what was occurring. The party took a gamble on radical policies and lost big time in 2016.

[Lysistrata]

250 words of not answering the question.

I did answer your question, and I'm not wrong. Who would you support? Bernie Sanders or Ted Cruz? Elizabeth Warren or Nikki Haley? Keith Ellison or Paul Ryan? Chuck Schumer or Marco Rubio? Of course, you would support the Progressive Socialist Democrat in every instance. The only time Progressives use the Constitution is when it helps them weaken another piece of it, in order to destroy another chunk of Capitalism. What is your obsession with the Heller decision?

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/31/opinion/lets-give-up-on-the-constitution.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

​Notice this guy doesn't talk about the 2nd Amendment either. He would then have to acknowledge why it's there in the first place.

[Rand0m her0]

> It all happened circa 2009 when the Democrat party went from semi moderate to far left. 

 

​The democrats are literally a center right party. They're only slightly further to the left than the littreal conservative parties of many other countries. America littrealy does not have a left wing party at all.  Not only that but the democrats have swung further right over the last couple  elections. Hillary literally ran a campaign to the right of bush senior on several topics.  They're left only in comparison to the republican party.

 

The last time the democrats ran on a truly leftist platform was sometime in the 70s, back before nixon and the republican hissy fit about the civil rights act dismantled the new deal coalition. And it was that era and those policies that the american golden age was built on. 

 

 

@lys. Still avoiding the question. Provide a single example of a non fringe group working to dismantle the US constitution. 

[Lysistrata]

@lys. Still avoiding the question. Provide a single example of a non fringe group working to dismantle the US constitution.

Randomdude: Who is working to dismantle the US Constitution?

Lysis: Progressives

Randomdude: You're not answering the question. Who specifically is working to dismantle the US Constitution?

​Lysis: Progressives

Randomdude: You're still not answering the question. Who specifically is working to dismantle the US Constitution?

Lysis: Progressives

Randomdude: Typical Republican... can't answer a simple question.   

[onbekende]

*popcorn gif*

 

I do keep wondering where this fairy tail "socialists" in the USA are, even most of what Bernie spouts is fairly moderate and obvious US-styled.

 

Lys, you know very well that RH just wants 1 example, just 1. You keep handing him the 2nd which is hardly up for repeal, let alone the complete abolishment of the entire Constitution. Granted their are voices that could be marked as "anti-constitution" but I would hardly call them progressives (you making a cuss-word out of it doesn't help), I would call them authoritarians.

 

*popcorn gif*

 

As for the topic, it seems current US foreighn politics (if you would call it that) is to make NK's position seem weak. Wonder why they wanted nukes in the first place... Think it was something about not being taken serious... Clearly thus going around claiming you just slain the big bad Jong-un isn't going to score you brownie points for your peacetalks.

 

*popcorn gif*

[Lysistrata]

Lys, you know very well that RH just wants 1 example, just 1.

The ACLU. It's a conglomerate of Progressive lawyers assembled for the sole purpose of using the US Constitution as a weapon against itself. One of those Progressive lawyers made it all the way to the highest court, dispensing her own ideals, with her very own interpretations, and condemning us all with her poisonous opinions. Her name is Ruth Bader Ginsburg.