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Nationalism is dumb


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#1
Blade 619

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Reference video:

 

Discuss


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Leave it to Blade to step in and say the most completely true post in this thread. You make my day Sir.  

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#2
DeathMerchant

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Like everything out there, unless it's taken to an extreme, I don't see an issue with Nationalism. There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your heritage, culture, and being a productive citizen of your country while striving to achieve the absolute highest.

The idea of war is not to die for your country, it's to make the enemy die for his.

 

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#3
ccabal86

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A bag of thoughts/opinions from me related to the matter:

 

  • If you want to see what a REAL populist-nationalist governance looks like, look at Hungary. Chances are if you're not a die-hard Trump supporter, you'd hate it. Not a day goes by that I don't get pissed off at something that the government does, simply on the fact that it isn't how a decent country should operate. Unfortunately, Hungary is a small country and you can't avoid politics seeping into your everyday lives even if you wanted to. Everything is politicized to a very unhealthy degree, but that is exactly what the populist-nationalist government wants.
     
  • I find identity politics in general to be a horrible way to operate by. It usually manages to be both inherently collectivist and divisive at the same time. Unfortunately humans are genetically evolved to apply double standards: too lenient towards members of in their in-group and naturally hostile to members of out-groups. Identity politics plays perfectly to this evolutionary trait to bad results
     
  • Immigration in general needs to be regarded through a strict cost-benefit approach. At the end of the day, a country is a system of institutions that supposedly exists to maximize the well-being of its citizens, admittedly there are multitudes of dimensions and approaches to achieving that. Immigrants therefore should be INDIVIDUALLY assessed whether they would be a net benefit to or net drain on the system, and should be admitted or rejected accordingly. Purely humanitarian considerations should be given low priority in the assessment, because the world in general was, is, and always will be a horrible place. There is nothing new under the sun, let's not act like there is.
     
  • Illegal immigrants can automatically be assumed to be bad faith actors and this fact should weigh significantly in their assessment.
     
  • Diversity for it's own sake is useless and even detrimental if there is no cohesion between the diverse elements. That said, a diverse system with good synergy is better than a non-diverse system.

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#4
Lysistrata

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My first reaction here... it's a comedy routine. Hard to create a serious discussion about serious issues such as border protection, illegal immigration, and national pride, based on a biased five minute video of some guy generating some laughs from Progressive zombies in a liberal safe space. This video was posted last month, has been viewed 176 times, and has one single, one word comment that simply states "Moron". Try pulling off this skit in a lounge filled with veterans, or maybe a club in Oklahoma... then I would give the guy some props for being brave, or insane... take your pick on that one.


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#5
onbekende

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The skit goes for misplaced pride and personal inferiority/superiority complexes.

 

That isn't just nationalism thats got that issue, but they do tend to be the most glaring :D


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#6
Lysistrata

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The skit goes for misplaced pride and personal inferiority/superiority complexes.

 

That isn't just nationalism thats got that issue, but they do tend to be the most glaring :D

I see your point... but good comedy should never have to be explained. I hate it that people can't take a joke anymore, and I honestly believe that most outrage is contrived to drive an agenda. If you have to blow the room up to get a laugh, maybe they shouldn't joke about something like that. When patriotism becomes the punchline, it's their face that will become the target. Too many good people have sacrificed everything so this guy can say this... and he doesn't seem to understand that.

 

Edit: For the record... I have a lot of new found respect for the French. All those people wearing those yellow jackets have my full support.


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DeathMerchant

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Edit: For the record... I have a lot of new found respect for the French. All those people wearing those yellow jackets have my full support.

There is actually a small Yellow Vest movement gaining traction in NY. They held a protest on Jan 1st in front of the Federal Reserve Bank in NYC. Only a handful of people showed up so no media coverage, but allegedly more protests are going to be announced in the near future.

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#8
ccabal86

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Can someone please explain to me what the hell do people in the yellow jackets actually want? Because as far as I can tell, it started as a protest against a slight tax increase on gas (that would have gone to environmental protection, btw), and now they just want Macron to “go”. The plan doesn’t seem to go beyond that, not counting the millions of Euros in property damage of course.

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#9
Lysistrata

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They are fighting the only way they can against their country being swollowed by a globalist government. This did not happen here in the U.S. during the Obama Administration because we have an election cycle every two years, and we can throw the bums out if we don't like what they do. The same thing is currently happening to Trump. Not so in France. Brexit is pretty much the same thing.

 

This is what happens when an all controlling government tries to force everyone to live the same way. We have a Republic here in the USA, and our separate states have some power to create unique living environments for the contentment of the people that live there. If we don't like it... we can move to another state more to our liking.

 

After they depose Macron, I'll be patiently waiting for France to pull out of the Paris Climate Accord... now that would be epically ironic at the very same time as being universally astounding.


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#10
ccabal86

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All right, sure. I just find your support of them a bit strange, because to me, this Gilets Jaunes movement has some pretty strong anarcho-leftist vibes to it. Didn't know that was your thing...


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#11
Lysistrata

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All right, sure. I just find your support of them a bit strange, because to me, this Gilets Jaunes movement has some pretty strong anarcho-leftist vibes to it. Didn't know that was your thing...

Oh it's not at all... the anarchists like to hijack every anger movement, and the Progressive media eats it up.


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#12
Blade 619

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Can someone please explain to me what the hell do people in the yellow jackets actually want? Because as far as I can tell, it started as a protest against a slight tax increase on gas (that would have gone to environmental protection, btw), and now they just want Macron to “go”. The plan doesn’t seem to go beyond that, not counting the millions of Euros in property damage of course.

 

I don't know, but went through France recently and they saved me quite a few tolls by holding the barriers up on the motorway/interstate type system.


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Blade 619 you have been baptized in Fire and Blood and emerged as IRON!

 

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  I will remember this, Blade, and I will be forever grateful... oh hell words fail me!  ( @ )( @ )

 

 

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Revenge is best served cold, tasting of vanilla yoghurt with vanilla and chocolate balls.

 

 

 

Leave it to Blade to step in and say the most completely true post in this thread. You make my day Sir.  

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#13
onbekende

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As with any public outcry movement, it got mostly hijacked by "violence merchants". The first couple weekends it were indeed the common man being annoyed at yet another price hike for fuel. The next and current protests? Mostly far left/right tugs looking to start a fight and light a fire.

 

Couple this with an unclear message cause every person in a yellow jacket wants to add his demands to the pile, you dilute and white noise the entire protest. Its why I find anarchists and libertarians such a joke, they always devolve into "1 island for each" type deals where everyone wants something but nobody wants to let the others have it.

 

 

@Lys: the comedian drew the line between patriotism and nationalism as being off unfounded pride in mostly others (and historical) achievements. I consider patriotism to be a more mellow and mostly "feels" orientated expression, while nationalism (and by extension the worldly version: chauvinism) is a "deeds" expression that envokes an ever increasing narrow definition of "nationlity" to keep up with the "us vs them" mentality it fosters. See it this way, I don't mind when you put your family on a pedestal and proclaim all of there good points, however I will find it abhorent when you diminish the excistinence of other families just cause they don't have your last name.

 

and pffft, there are always people you need to explain the joke to, I would actually be surprised if that wasn't the case.


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#14
Lysistrata

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I'm not a European… thank my forefathers, and luck for that. If I was from Europe, I would have immigrated to the USA a very long time ago, and I would have come here legally. I would have come here to become an American, and not to bring my culture, my religion, or my politics with me. I have lived here all my life, so I really don't know how it would be if things were different, but I hope I would be the same person I am today. I believe the USA is the greatest country to ever grace planet Earth, and I would not entertain the thought of living anywhere else. I live under the laws of the US Constitution, and my state... nothing more... everything else is under my control. I like it that way, and if that makes me a "Nationalist", that is what I am.

 

The great curtain has been pulled back in Europe. Brexit, and now the Yellow Jackets, are proof of that. Now everyone can see that not everyone is on board with the great Progressive, Globalist movement. They wanted to make everyone believe that only Capitalists in the USA were opposed to it. That is a lie. We are not the masses that need to be cared for and controlled. We are human individuals, with our own thoughts and capabilities. I am better than most, but not better than all. I do not need, and will refuse, charity, welfare, or "a level playing field". Save that for those that need it. I am an American... anyone that wants to be one can come and earn it.


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#15
Blade 619

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I'm not a European… thank my forefathers, and luck for that. If I was from Europe, I would have immigrated to the USA a very long time ago, and I would have come here legally. I would have come here to become an American, and not to bring my culture, my religion, or my politics with me. I have lived here all my life, so I really don't know how it would be if things were different, but I hope I would be the same person I am today. I believe the USA is the greatest country to ever grace planet Earth, and I would not entertain the thought of living anywhere else. I live under the laws of the US Constitution, and my state... nothing more... everything else is under my control. I like it that way, and if that makes me a "Nationalist", that is what I am.

 

The great curtain has been pulled back in Europe. Brexit, and now the Yellow Jackets, are proof of that. Now everyone can see that not everyone is on board with the great Progressive, Globalist movement. They wanted to make everyone believe that only Capitalists in the USA were opposed to it. That is a lie. We are not the masses that need to be cared for and controlled. We are human individuals, with our own thoughts and capabilities. I am better than most, but not better than all. I do not need, and will refuse, charity, welfare, or "a level playing field". Save that for those that need it. I am an American... anyone that wants to be one can come and earn it.

 

Time to point out that the Americans owe their existence to the French?


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Gratia Domini nostri Iesu Christi cum omnibus vobis.

 

* * * * *

Blade 619 you have been baptized in Fire and Blood and emerged as IRON!

 

* * * * *

 

 

  I will remember this, Blade, and I will be forever grateful... oh hell words fail me!  ( @ )( @ )

 

 

* * * * *

Revenge is best served cold, tasting of vanilla yoghurt with vanilla and chocolate balls.

 

 

 

Leave it to Blade to step in and say the most completely true post in this thread. You make my day Sir.  

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#16
Lysistrata

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Time to point out that the Americans owe their existence to the French?

Yes you are correct. It's fair to also point out that Americans owe their existence to the French hatred of the British. It's a good thing we all got past that, or none of us would have made it through the 20th century. We owe a lot to the constant arguments of Monarchs that bought us the time to prove to the entire planet that there was a better way. I have traced my own ancestry back to Wales, so it's a good thing that my forefathers got past it as well. We all must remember our history, so we don't make the same mistakes again.


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#17
onbekende

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Yes Lys, as long as you stay in the "feels" department, I count you on the patriotic side.

 

Most times I go waving around being belgian is when we did something bad or idiotic. That and we are kinda a pissing pole of alot of nations when they need a small and pretty unfamiliar but still western type nation to bash. Monty Python leads the charge o/


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