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1984


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#1
Rafay

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I know this forum isn't regarding novels but its also a film so gimme a pass.

 

I just finished reading 1984 the novel and Mr Orwel did a great job of cutting my chest open with a blunt and rusty knife and proceeded to stomp on it again and again.

 

Though I have a few questions if any1 has read the novel. Please do answer if you understood them.  

 

Q. Please explain to me what happened after Winston got arrested?

 

Q. Was O'brien a member of brotherhood or agent of thought police?

 

Q. How did the thought police find out about Winston's activities?

 

Q. Since and why had they been keeping watch on him as O'brien met him seven years ago in a dark place and gave a strange message? How did they know that he was gonna commit crimes?


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#2
ccabal86

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Please take this with a grain of salt, as it’s been nearly a decade sin I read 1984, so I might be a bit fuzzy on the details.

1, They break his will, hopes and personality. Had they just killed him, W. could have claimed a moral victory and remained defiant till the end. What happens instead is the perfect explanation of what a “totalitarian” regime is. They turn him into an empty shell of a man, a willing “subject”. But since there are no laws, or any sort of transparency, it’s possible that in a week, month, year, decade, he will be collected and made example of as a spy. Or it may never happen.

2, It’s actually irrelevant, because O’brien was just a cog in the machine, like everyone else albeit a bigger one. The difference was that he knew more about the nature of the system, but that did not give him more individual power, he just has a bigger role to play than most

3, It’s unknown, but the message is that there is no escaping the system. It cannot be outsmarted, even if you think so.

4, I don’t remember this part, so I’d rather not say

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#3
Rafay

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Well thank you for this much explanation. Been bugging me since I finished reading.

 

I would criticize however that such a state could never function. An impoverished and malnourished nation cannot sustain the type of hyper productivity required of them. The govt. no matter how totalitarian needs to take care of basic needs. If not, disease and famine will reduce the population count thereby crumbling the entire system.

 

Now for some praise of Mr Orwell. I think the ending was doublethink happy and bad too if you closely inspect it. Yes our heroes are defeated as not only freedom but even hope is lost in the end, however the happy ending is that WE still have our freedom and hope and that we still have a chance to preserve and fight for both. In the novel the good guys lost for good but here we can fight as we are free and know what fascism and totalitarianism looks like unlike those trapped in it; its their whole world unfortunately.

 

The novel depressed me (the part where Winston recalls about his mother disappearing) and filled me with joy that at least in our world we defeated fascism and are continuing to fight it. Fascism no matter how strong will ALWAYS lose!!! 


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#4
ccabal86

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Arguably, the closest RL example we have to an 1984-style totalitarian state is 1980’s North Korea, although the big difference was and is that it’s surrounded by less outlandish polities. In 1984, it’s pretty much the same deal everywhere in the world, only the jumpsuits are of different color.

While the case Orwell makes is crystal clear, I also remember having doubts whether the depicted scenario would be sustainable in reality. In the novel it is made clear that the economies of these mega-states are crumbing and I had the distinct impression that they were at near-collapse. In fact, i think it is implied that most available resources are consumed by the upkeep of the state/party and the survillance infrastructure. Such totalitarian control paired with an extreme scarcity of resources is a little paradoxical...

I don’t know whether I share your optimism about the defeat of fascism, or rather authoritarianism to widen that scope. It seems that humans in general care more about decent financial security, and a moderate well-being than abstract notions such as “freedom” and as long as an authoritarian regime can provide the comfy minimum, people in general are fine with it. Of course there are examples for and against this, so I guess we’ll see where we end up as a global society in the long run.

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#5
Lysistrata

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Something I thought about when I saw this post. This may be fun for you...

 

Winston Smith Takes It on the Jaw
Utopia
 

We got no razor blades, we got no victory gin
I got no tiny alcove to hide myself in
To say things weren't good would not be an untruth
But I just met a girl from the anti-sex youth

 

We get up in the morning for physical jerks
We might pass in the hall as we're going to work

 

I have found us a place where there's no telescreen
And there's no hidden mics and it's not too unclean
While the high remain high and the middle change places
The low don't want to know they tell all with their faces

 

She might sit afront of me for the two minutes hate
I might see her again if it's not already too late

 

So they will take the book away from me
So let them catch me talking in my sleep
I guess I never really understood the law
So Winston Smith takes it on the jaw

 

So let's do what we want, it makes no difference now
When the thought police find us, we're dead anyhow
Kick us out of the party and bust us to parole
Then they'll stuff us both into a memory hole

 

So let them haul me off to 101
Public confessions of everything we've done
Of everything I heard and everything I saw
When Winston Smith takes it on the jaw


Decision 2020...

 

Do we want a Swalwell? or a Swell Wall?

 


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#6
Rafay

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I don’t know whether I share your optimism about the defeat of fascism, or rather authoritarianism to widen that scope. It seems that humans in general care more about decent financial security, and a moderate well-being than abstract notions such as “freedom” and as long as an authoritarian regime can provide the comfy minimum, people in general are fine with it. Of course there are examples for and against this, so I guess we’ll see where we end up as a global society in the long run.

 

Authoritarianism is a short term fix. Like Hitler did actually improve the German economy but in the long run ended up destroying it. That's what I meant that fascism will lose always. And yes exactly that was the point I was making that in the novel it is implied that in the future the party will become more cruel and less tolerant. So it'll then basically become HAL 9000 and start killing off everyone who makes the slightest of mistake and end up destroying the foundation of the state.

 

We got no razor blades, we got no victory gin I got no tiny alcove to hide myself in To say things weren't good would not be an untruth But I just met a girl from the anti-sex youth   We get up in the morning for physical jerks We might pass in the hall as we're going to work   I have found us a place where there's no telescreen And there's no hidden mics and it's not too unclean While the high remain high and the middle change places The low don't want to know they tell all with their faces   She might sit afront of me for the two minutes hate I might see her again if it's not already too late   So they will take the book away from me So let them catch me talking in my sleep I guess I never really understood the law So Winston Smith takes it on the jaw   So let's do what we want, it makes no difference now When the thought police find us, we're dead anyhow Kick us out of the party and bust us to parole Then they'll stuff us both into a memory hole   So let them haul me off to 101 Public confessions of everything we've done Of everything I heard and everything I saw When Winston Smith takes it on the jaw

 

Nice lyrics but video unavailable. Have you read the book? 


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#7
Lysistrata

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Nice lyrics but video unavailable. Have you read the book?

Yes... I read it back in 1976. That's when it was still fiction.  :ph34r:


Decision 2020...

 

Do we want a Swalwell? or a Swell Wall?

 


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#8
Blade 619

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Nice lyrics but video unavailable. Have you read the book?

Yes... I read it back in 1976. That's when it was still fiction.  :ph34r:

Preach

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* * * * *

Gratia Domini nostri Iesu Christi cum omnibus vobis.

 

* * * * *

Blade 619 you have been baptized in Fire and Blood and emerged as IRON!

 

* * * * *

 

 

  I will remember this, Blade, and I will be forever grateful... oh hell words fail me!  ( @ )( @ )

 

 

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Revenge is best served cold, tasting of vanilla yoghurt with vanilla and chocolate balls.

 

 

 

Leave it to Blade to step in and say the most completely true post in this thread. You make my day Sir.  

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#9
Rafay

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Yes... I read it back in 1976. That's when it was still fiction. 

 

Wow you're old!!! lol jk.

 

But I agree it was fiction definitely back then. That's why the movie bombed. Now it'd be a box office smash for sure. It's basically a fascism manual nowadays.


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#10
Lysistrata

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Wow you're old!!! lol jk.

Yes... I am :)


Decision 2020...

 

Do we want a Swalwell? or a Swell Wall?

 


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#11
ccabal86

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Nice lyrics but video unavailable. Have you read the book?

Yes... I read it back in 1976. That's when it was still fiction.  :ph34r:

 

 

B)


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