926 replies to this topic

[Mazuurek]

If you agree, vote

b-but i voted :c

[Canik]

Samus already pointed to Lego's interaction with mod

 So he apologizes for breaking the rules? Couldn't that easily be him trying to cover up his mistake?
 

So instead looking outside of the two main people that have been talked about and high on votes for 2 days now (Rafay, Lego), you rather just keep voting on whose been on the hotseat because we could expose a role looking elsewhere. Where was this type of thinking yesterday? You fear pressuring people and possibly exposing a role....but you don't have any issues lynching someone you know nothing on and no idea if they had a PR or not. Makes a lot of logical sense. It also goes completely against how you've played in other games.

KevinH roleclaiming made me much more aware of it. I was just thinking that would be nice to avoid that happening again. My game is going to change as I play more. I think this is my 9th game, but most of those were quite a while ago and I was knocked out early a couple times. Plus my memory isn't so good because I am smoking something.

If you are town Rhizo, I guess I can't blame you for suspicion towards me.. but it's misguided. You don't know me as well as you think. Tomorrow when I'm a little less high and more awake I will post more. Also I did actually look at other people and did find another trinket or two, just didn't find them as interesting personally but will try to get them posted tomorrow as well.

[D34THBR1NG3R]

As with what Rhizo said, I also believe 1ceCream is scum but for now

A heavy FoS on Canik

[Preston]

When people argue they seem to get VERY active postwise - and Rhizo has been quite argumentative today; we've just seen the 1cecream vote wagon of Rhizo and Legoboy shift to a new target, Canik.

First off though there is a series of comments about Kevin's claimed information from last night that I feel bears addressing:

Who benefits from KevinH's claim that Preston didn't do anything last night? Did anyone pressured KevinH to share his findings or are we now helping scums in taking out our PR's (in this case by informing them that Preston is probably a VT...assuming he's town)?

I unfortunately was typing my reply when Kevin said who he followed last night.  If people see, I even mentioned Kevin likely shouldn't say any details of his role unless it helps with last night's kill to not give away a RP.  You'd be correct though, he could of very well just helped scum by telling them Preston is likely a VT if Preston is in fact town.  There was no benefit to Kevin releasing the information....it gave us absolutely nothing.  Preston could be a VT, or he could be a scum goon...it doesn't help anyone out saying it, besides scum.

You sound awfully sure Preston is a VT. Just because he didn't use an ability last night doesn't necessarily mean he has no role.. interesting.

Ali's original question is "who benefits" - and the answer in my opinion is Kevin himself as he attempts to confirm his D2 roleclaim, and no one had to pressure him to do it. I was probably the most vocal about suspecting Kevin D1 and D2, and while a lot of people seemed to instantly accept his roleclaim and back off I remained very pointedly skeptical about scenarios where Kevin could have faked the claim. By naming me on his Night 2 results it forces me to confirm the truth of THAT result, which I took as an attempt to convice his most vocal skeptic.

I can't help that Kevin outed my lack of nighttime activity like that - no matter who Kevin named on D2, they would have had to at least partially reveal themselves in order to confirm OR challenge Kevin's report. I also have no doubt that if I'd had a role and DID target someone last night, Kevin would have similarly had no issue about speaking it aloud today - both to confirm himself, and so that if he is truly town and gets killed on N3 that his findings won't die with him.

So Rhizo's comment here is accurate - if Kevin is town, his report helped the scum by slightly narrowing their search for power roles. Otherwise it doesn't confirm anything else about me since trackers cannot prove towniness or indeed show much of anything beyond a person having a role at all. It also does not eliminate the chance of my being a scum ninja or non-acting scum goon, or just not using a role last night - the same applies to SM's claim. Rhizo seems to recognize how little Kevin's negative results prove about those investigated, but he missed the point of Kevin's posting them as part of proving himself.

To reiterate, consider the following scenarios for Kevin's roleclaim:
1. Everything is true: Kevin is town, tracked SM, tracked me. Will probably die N3 unless scum want to look for another role instead.
2. Kevin & SM are both scum. SM confirmed his D2 claim, and either Kevin took a chance on me (knowing that I would have to roleclaim to refute him), or scum have a tracker that is at least 1-shot; possibly a JOAT, which would make sense to give scum an edge in a game THIS big.
3. Kevin is scum and SM is not, and either guessed on SM or benefitted from a scum tracker ability for his D2 claim, then same for me on D3.

I consider scenario 3 to be unlikely but feasible, as it would mean either scum have a dedicated tracker role or Kevin took a risk guessing in his D2 claim. I would not be surprised if TW gave the scum something more than just a ninja this game after how the last game turned out, so a dedicated scum tracker is possible.
I consider scenario 2 to still be quite possible, because it only requires ONE 'actual' tracking result on me - which could be accomplished if the scum have a JOAT at their disposal; I'd be more inclined to believe the scum has one of those instead of a tracker.
I consider scenario 1 to also be VERY possible, despite the way Kevin has been posting that drew so much attention to him - unfortunately without something more concrete, he remains uncertain. A third result might make him more certain, albeit at the cost of once again forcing someone to confirm themselves - but he also might die on N3.

This took longer to respond to than I'd thought, but it also speaks to some of the recent discussion between Canik and Rhizo.

---

On other subjects, we had an interesting series of posts about inactivity and prodding:
* Samus posted an activity list (very color coded, is that a script?) and said we needed to prod inactives
* KevinH voted Mazuurek - citing inactivity, not no-lynch voting D1, and not voting Rafay D2. I find the latter two points to be questionable in how much they confer towniness.
* Samus criticized kevin for VOTING inactives, as did Rhizo
* Wolfpacks criticized Samus about how pressuring inactives didn't work in Rafay's case
* Samus clarified what 'prodding inactives' meant - i.e. getting them potentially replaced with backup people.

I get that 'prodding' and 'pressure vote' are often used interchangably, but this whole sequence was still interesting to read as I caught up tonight.

Of that series however - Wolfpacks once again stood out with his post about not posting much. What he DID have to say was a theory that scum were divided between Rafay and Kevin - which if Kevin is town would most likely the case. However it concerns me that he is effectively lurking like this and getting away with it, after his suspicious activity with a no-lynch vote yesterday and looking to clear his vote from BOTH wagons. He later responded to Rhizo by saying he is trying not to fluffpost today.

Mazuurek also caught my eye - he posted at least, but he also did not seem to register that we HAVE already lost our doctor... you'd think that would have been a glaring point to be aware of today as it rather shapes the whole roleclaiming discussion.

And then finally we have Rhizo's focus switch to Canik - and Lego voting before Rhizo himself did, actually in the MIDDLE of Rhizo's posting; Lego is certainly paying a LOT of attention to the thread, even as his votes jump around. I am a little leery of the shift from 1cecream to Canik so 'quickly', and by the same two people even. Is Lego just following peoples' lead at this point? Rhizo brought up Samus's comment where TW warned Lego - but the interaction there makes me question how solidly that proves him town. Would TW have said something about a SCUM fakeclaim, if it looked poised to prompt others to claim as well? We can't know for sure.

For myself, I don't see as much about Canik right now to merit the suspicion Rhizo has directed there; very little objective in that rationale. My focus remains on Wolfpacks, and after what I've read of him lately I'll actually put my vote there now to solidify it:

Vote: Wolfpacks

-Preston

[Chaplain of death]

Caniks d3 posts certainly stand out.....

FoS: Canik


(going to need to read through the last few pages some more but im on my phone and at work so it won't be til later)

[Mazuurek]

 

 

active Let me see how this works, in Samus's view if you are inactive you need to be prodded, well that worked with Rafay didnt it mate, I tend to go on the theory that only half of the scum was on Rafays wagon, as the townies was also involved in lynching Rafay, if KevinH is role claiming and it's true then some may have been on his wagon as well.
Your have to forgive me I'm not into writing long lists on what who done what and who's done this, I read and I listen then I make my mind up which way I'm going to vote, I will interject when I need to.
 

 
In other words you are lurking, not giving any input except for a sporadic voting record. Its almost like scum tactics 101 this game. We can't get a read on you if you don't give input, and yeah, that can benefit you depending on what your goal is. If you are townie, its counter productive because if we can get a read on you we can write you off the suspect list and narrow down who is scum. If you are scum then it benefits you to stay in the shadow and not contribute anything that could be used to determine that you are scum.

since 2 PRs are dead already I believe it's better for the remaining PRs to lay low and not let scum in particular get a read, if there is a doctor left it would be less risky, but we cant know for sure.

 

 

 

Mazuurek also caught my eye - he posted at least, but he also did not seem to register that we HAVE already lost our doctor... you'd think that would have been a glaring point to be aware of today as it rather 

 

I've played a lot of Town of Salem where there can be multiple power roles like doctors, i'm was not sure if it applied here so i decided to assume that it was. my apologies

[KevinH]

There *could* be multiple doctors but that would be unusual.

 

Preston spelled out my reasons for releasing my investigation results quite well.

Additionally, it adds to the towniness of Preston (and Sister Midnight from the previous night) in that they were not the scum that delivered the kill, unless they are ninja.  That information should not die with me.

 

The lynch of Rafay was the most townie thing to do, given what we knew at the time.  I'm sure a clever scum would try to do the most townie thing, too.

[Chaplain of death]

I'm still skeptical of Canik, however Wolfpacks' behavior can't be ignored. He has all but admitted to lurking because he doesn't have anything to add. Very scum maneuver, so in the absence of a better candidate;

 

Vote Wolfpacks

 

Also going to throw an FoS on ABT because as Rhizo pointed out, he's presenting a very favorable view, for himself, of how yesterday came down. I am very suspicious anytime someone attempts to misrepresent the facts.

[Finster Baby]

Ali:

Apology accepted.

UNVOTE

FOS: Canik, based on Rhizo's analysis, Wolfpacks, based on how he's been playing.

[legoboyvdlp]

Voting on an inactive worked well, didn't it?

I confirm I recieved an owl from Fudge warning me about my roleclaim being illegal.
Mazureek, sorry, I did not see it.

[Canik]

A couple things real quick -

It would be unusual to have multiple doctors but there is a very real possible there was a nurse. It is listed in the possible roles and in a bigger game like this would make a lot of sense to have one.

A little funny Mazuurke votes for me shortly after Lego. He did the same thing when Lego switched his vote to Kevin.

As for some of the arguments claiming voting for Rafay in and of itself is a scum tell. We now know Lyner was town and he was on that wagon. Lyner isn't stupid, isn't new, was town and thought Rafay was worth voting for. He also said this:

Point made on
Lego and if we have no better suspect, a VT is arguably the safest
choice to kill for town.

 So you might not want to be so quick invest much in these are scum signs, unless you want to argue Lyner was scum. xD This is why I'm not focusing as much on that and more on erratic switching and the motives behind them.

Also don't think has been noted yet but looking at Lyner's interactions yesterday, once of his final posts he suggests cop targets:

If I were cop,
I would check: Preston/AbT/SM/Mazu/D34th/Icecream

A page or two before that he posted suspicions of D34TH and had some back and forth with him. I expect the scum probably wouldn't be so obvious, but you never know. It's a WIFOM situation as so many are in Mafia.

Hmm, thinking about it.. I find it kind of interesting scum did choose to kill Lyner after him being pretty vocal (especially for Lyner) and giving cop suggestions. That would make me think he probably didn't have a power role. Maybe it did have something to do with who he was beginning to suspect.

 

[The Warrior]

Vote Count

 

Canik (3): legoboyvdlp, Rhizoctonia, Mazuurek

Wolfpacks (2): Preston, Chaplain of Death

legoboyvdlp (1): Canik

Mazuurek (1): KevinH

Ali bin Turban (0):

Chaplain of Death (0):

D34THBR1NG3R (0):

Finster Baby (0):

1ceCream (0):

iSocialism (0):

KevinH (0):

Preston (0):

Rhizoctonia (0):

Samus (0):

Sister Midnight (0):

 

No Lynch (0):

Not voting: Ali bin Turban, D34THBR1NG3R, Finster Baby, 1ceCream, iSocialism, Samus, Sister Midnight, Wolfpacks

 

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch or 4 at deadline.
Deadline is 1:00pm CST on Monday, August 29th.

[Rhizoctonia]

A couple things real quick -

It would be unusual to have multiple doctors but there is a very real possible there was a nurse. It is listed in the possible roles and in a bigger game like this would make a lot of sense to have one.

A little funny Mazuurke votes for me shortly after Lego. He did the same thing when Lego switched his vote to Kevin.

As for some of the arguments claiming voting for Rafay in and of itself is a scum tell. We now know Lyner was town and he was on that wagon. Lyner isn't stupid, isn't new, was town and thought Rafay was worth voting for. He also said this:

Point made on
Lego and if we have no better suspect, a VT is arguably the safest
choice to kill for town.

 So you might not want to be so quick invest much in these are scum signs, unless you want to argue Lyner was scum. xD This is why I'm not focusing as much on that and more on erratic switching and the motives behind them.

Also don't think has been noted yet but looking at Lyner's interactions yesterday, once of his final posts he suggests cop targets:

If I were cop,
I would check: Preston/AbT/SM/Mazu/D34th/Icecream

A page or two before that he posted suspicions of D34TH and had some back and forth with him. I expect the scum probably wouldn't be so obvious, but you never know. It's a WIFOM situation as so many are in Mafia.

Hmm, thinking about it.. I find it kind of interesting scum did choose to kill Lyner after him being pretty vocal (especially for Lyner) and giving cop suggestions. That would make me think he probably didn't have a power role. Maybe it did have something to do with who he was beginning to suspect.

 

 

 

If you want to start using Lyner's posts to try to push something....try not just being selective on which ones you choose.

 

One thing I noticed though, he roleclaimed from the start, he is Professor Filius, a vanilla townie. Why did nobody discuss this? Especially AbT since he's the most vocal to kill him yesterday.

 

Although I agree with some of AbT's reasoning of how Lego's behaviour is scummy, that roleclaim is pretty decisive. Scums don't know if there is any kind of cops and revealing both his name and his role is too risky imo. Couple that with the roleclaim being the 8th post of this thread, I'm pretty sure scums didn't plan this. The scummy behaviour can be explained by Lego being a newbie that doesn't want to be killed early like last game.

 

Seems Lyner also was pretty sure that Lego was telling the truth and was a VT.  You know, the guy you're voting for.  You seem to want to try to read into Lyner's comments atm, which is fine, yet look to leave out where what Lyner said is exact opposite of what you're trying to do.

 

To your singling out Lego for sporadic voting....I'll dive into that later when I have time to show that's a bogus reason as well, unless you want to group in about 1/2 the players with Lego.  Once you start doing that, your reasoning for voting him starts becoming more watered down.

[Canik]

Seems Lyner also was pretty sure that Lego was telling the truth and was a VT. You know, the guy you're voting for. You seem to want to try to read into Lyner's comments atm, which is fine, yet look to leave out where what Lyner said is exact opposite of what you're trying to do.

You act like those quotes were from the same post or really close together. Yours was from early D1 and mine was from well into D2. Could it be that I just didn't see the post? Not that it changes much. Your quote was from so early, before much discussion that led to Lyner speaking favorably of lynching Lego. Plus my point was more-so that Lyner also thought Lego could be a good candidate to lynch due to him already roleclaming.

 

To your singling out Lego for sporadic voting....I'll dive into that later when I have time to show that's a bogus reason as well, unless you want to group in about 1/2 the players with Lego. Once you start doing that, your reasoning for voting him starts becoming more watered down.

There were some others who were about or equally as bad and I do give them negative points for that. From memory, Mazuurke was definitely one of them. Others who had some erratic voting or changes at the end, if I recall correctly, included AbT, FB, iSocialism, CoD, SM, D34TH.. might be forgetting one or two.. but from what I saw Lego's seemed the most reactionary and suspicious. Not sure anyone barring Mazuurke could be said to be on par. The others didn't do it as much, or not in such a reactionary fashion, or the votes were not serious votes likely to cause a lynch.

I may have voted for him just based on that, along with his strange posting early on which I was still suspicious of. But thinking that he would be a good candidate since he has roleclaimed VT made the decision even easier.




 

[Sister Midnight]

 

 

 

active Let me see how this works, in Samus's view if you are inactive you need to be prodded, well that worked with Rafay didnt it mate, I tend to go on the theory that only half of the scum was on Rafays wagon, as the townies was also involved in lynching Rafay, if KevinH is role claiming and it's true then some may have been on his wagon as well.
Your have to forgive me I'm not into writing long lists on what who done what and who's done this, I read and I listen then I make my mind up which way I'm going to vote, I will interject when I need to.
 

 
In other words you are lurking, not giving any input except for a sporadic voting record. Its almost like scum tactics 101 this game. We can't get a read on you if you don't give input, and yeah, that can benefit you depending on what your goal is. If you are townie, its counter productive because if we can get a read on you we can write you off the suspect list and narrow down who is scum. If you are scum then it benefits you to stay in the shadow and not contribute anything that could be used to determine that you are scum.

since 2 PRs are dead already I believe it's better for the remaining PRs to lay low and not let scum in particular get a read, if there is a doctor left it would be less risky, but we cant know for sure.

 

 

 

Mazuurek also caught my eye - he posted at least, but he also did not seem to register that we HAVE already lost our doctor... you'd think that would have been a glaring point to be aware of today as it rather 

 

I've played a lot of Town of Salem where there can be multiple power roles like doctors, i'm was not sure if it applied here so i decided to assume that it was. my apologies

 

This post raises some questions about Maz for me.  Maz likes to play up newbiehood, but if he's seasoned on Town of Salem, which I understand is like Mafia, only sped up, so that means Maz is seasoned and not so much of a newb.  I'm watching you, Maz! 

[KevinH]

In my opinion, a townie following the best course of action for the town would have voted for No-Lynch on Day 1 and Rafay on Day 2.
Scum could easily have masqueraded as townies and made those vote, too.
 
However, these are the players that didn't do either:

• Rhizoctonia
• Samus
• Preston
• Chaplain of Death
• Ali bin Turban
• Mazuurek

[Rhizoctonia]

 

Seems Lyner also was pretty sure that Lego was telling the truth and was a VT. You know, the guy you're voting for. You seem to want to try to read into Lyner's comments atm, which is fine, yet look to leave out where what Lyner said is exact opposite of what you're trying to do.

You act like those quotes were from the same post or really close together. Yours was from early D1 and mine was from well into D2. Could it be that I just didn't see the post? Not that it changes much. Your quote was from so early, before much discussion that led to Lyner speaking favorably of lynching Lego. Plus my point was more-so that Lyner also thought Lego could be a good candidate to lynch due to him already roleclaming.

 

 

 

To your singling out Lego for sporadic voting....I'll dive into that later when I have time to show that's a bogus reason as well, unless you want to group in about 1/2 the players with Lego. Once you start doing that, your reasoning for voting him starts becoming more watered down.

There were some others who were about or equally as bad and I do give them negative points for that. From memory, Mazuurke was definitely one of them. Others who had some erratic voting or changes at the end, if I recall correctly, included AbT, FB, iSocialism, CoD, SM, D34TH.. might be forgetting one or two.. but from what I saw Lego's seemed the most reactionary and suspicious. Not sure anyone barring Mazuurke could be said to be on par. The others didn't do it as much, or not in such a reactionary fashion, or the votes were not serious votes likely to cause a lynch.

I may have voted for him just based on that, along with his strange posting early on which I was still suspicious of. But thinking that he would be a good candidate since he has roleclaimed VT made the decision even easier.




 

 

 

 

Let me start off first by correcting you.  My quote of Lyner was not way back on D1, it was not on D1 at all, it was in fat on D2...you know the same day you took your other quotes from.  So you're in fact wrong...maybe look it up first next time. So in fact, they're quite close together....less then 2 days between. Let alone if you read any of my posts, I've stated multiple times that Lyner is town for me as he is the one who brought it up D2 which I missed D1, and when a Lego lynch looked like a good possibility, and no scum would bring that up on D2 when an easy lynch on Lego could of happened.  They would of just let it happen.

 

Now to your other quote you quoted of Lyner

 

If I were cop,
I would check: Preston/AbT/SM/Mazu/D34th/Icecream

 

 

Well if Lyner really thought Lego was scum, don't you think he'd be on that list...or hell even a vote on D2 for him.

 

There were some others who were about or equally as bad and I do give them negative points for that. From memory, Mazuurke was definitely one of them. Others who had some erratic voting or changes at the end, if I recall correctly, included AbT, FB, iSocialism, CoD, SM, D34TH.. might be forgetting one or two.. but from what I saw Lego's seemed the most reactionary and suspicious. Not sure anyone barring Mazuurke could be said to be on par. The others didn't do it as much, or not in such a reactionary fashion, or the votes were not serious votes likely to cause a lynch.

 

 

Well I'm glad I could get you to admit that, that you singled out Lego when not only was he not the only one, he changed his vote less sporadically then others.  I also find it ironic that in your response, you now look to single out Maz.  Maz, who also didn't change votes sporadically as others....yet that's the name that sticks in your head as someone else mostly.  Maz, who is someone who is currently on the vote for you.  So now, you've successfully singled out 2 of the 3 people currently voting you....that's quite ironic.  Let alone, you remember those two, yet for some reason the likes of others who changed their vote more often do not as much or somehow less suspicious.  You know, the likes of say

SM - Who went from Lego, to Unvote, to Rafay, To FB, to Rafay

FB - Rafay, To unvote, to AtB, to Rafay

ABT - From Lego, to Kevin, To 1cecream

CoD - From Lego, to Kevin, To Not voting

Wolfpacks - From Lego, to No Lynch, To Maz

 

Just for some references.

 

I mean, it can't be that Lego actually read my thoughts I put into feeling Kevin was possibly scum, and then thought hey he makes good points and it's better choice then someone that all we know is inactive, and changed his votes.  Seems many did that.  Then, when Kevin RC, went back to his 2nd choice at that point.  

 

See, now you have voted Rafay who I thought was likely going to turn out town, and he did, you have voted Lego who I 100% believe is town especially with him on the lynch of you, and now trying to indirectly single out the 3rd person voting your name, Maz, who with now voting you, is more town in my eyes.  It's quite odd that you have yet to come at a single person I would even question at this point as being scum, you just have voted on 2 towns and after another who is currently voting you.

 

SM has upped her way on my scum list it seems too.

[Rhizoctonia]

So my new updated List:

 

Likely or Confirmed Town

 

1.  Lego - Town

2.  D34th - Town

3.  Kevin - His RC is only thing keeping him on it...though his actions are questioning that

4.  Preston - Town vibe for now

5.  Samus - Townish vibe for his comments on Lego

6.  Maz - Town with vote on Canik

 

Scum:  Canik, 1cecream

 

That Leaves as possibilities for the other 3-4 scum:

 

1.  SM

2.  FB

3.  Isocialism

4.  Wolfpacks

5.  ABT

6.  CoD

[Rhizoctonia]

To add, it seems pretty accurate that SM and FB are not together as scum.  So either both are town, or it's 1 town 1 scum. 

 

Jury is still out if the little fight between AbT and FB was real...or just a mere look to distance themselves from each other if 1 is found scum

[Finster Baby]

Jury is still out if the little fight between AbT and FB was real...or just a mere look to distance themselves from each other if 1 is found scum

Oh trust me, my anger with AbT was real and palpable. I still harbor suspicion, however, his quasi-apology at the beginning D3 is believable, at least to me.

I'm 100% with you that Lego is town. I still suspect something about KevinH, even with his role claim.

My suspects are:
1. Canik
2. 1cecream
3. Wolfpacks
4. SM
5. AbT

SM jumped on me hard when I voted for AbT. Was she protecting fellow scum?