Velocity

Since my original attempt at this game only got 13 of the required 15 players, I decided to condense it a little bit and retry now that it appears as if we have adequate players now. So I will basically copy/paste the old post here and change what I need to to attempt to make the game balanced. ----- To give some insight, the original Dark Souls follows the main character, Chosen Undead in their quest to either link the Fire or let it die out. In the Prepare To Die edition of the game, it comes with the incredible Artorias of the Abyss expansion, which is what this mafia game will focus on. To condense it into something simple for people to get: The Chosen Undead is dragged into the past by Manus, Father of the Abyss; to the land of Oolacile, which is being corrupted by Manus after the people awoke and angered him. Artorias, one of Lord Gwyn's four knights goes to defeat Manus and rescue Princess Dusk. Artorias is defeated and corrupted by the abyss, however, and the Chosen Undead must defeat him. The Chosen Undead then goes on to defeat Manus, although the victory is attributed to Artorias later. Despite this corruption, it is known that Artorias wanted to both stop the Abyss from leaving Oolacile and prevent anything from entering it. Hence why he is the Serial Killer, his goal is to kill enough things to stop the Abyss and he kills indiscriminately. The Chosen Undead will not be featured in this game for the sole purpose of balance, and I will use the All of that said, this is a semi-open game. The setup and power role names will be known, VT names will be drawn from lore. The setup is as follows, or if anyone is wanting to find it on the wiki it is W15 with some of my own rules, obviously: 2-Shot Stalker - Black Dragon Kalameet Lawyer OR Framer - Manus Cop - Ciaran Bullet-Proof Bodyguard OR Asceticizer - Ornstein 1-Shot Vigilante OR Deputy - Gough 4 Vanilla Townies Serial Killer - Artorias The only mechanic change is really just that the Serial Killer wins if he gets 3 kills. In the original setup it was 5 kills, but with reducing the player count and giving the mafia the option to not night kill by giving them two power roles and no Goon, I decided that if the Serial Killer kills 3 people they outright win and everybody else loses. Everyone else wins like normal. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10.

I am at work and there have been two pages of posts since I last checked this as I have been dealing with a long work week and pre-surgery appointments and calls, and I have a small update: I will be unavailable to post Thursday evening through Saturday evening, so I will be out all of Friday and Saturday during the day at least, as I am having a surgery on Friday. When I get home tonight I’ll read through the two pages of posts (thanks presty for the walls of texts lmao) and make some actual posts of my own, but I wanted to get an update on what’s going on with me out a little early.

Scum has a roleblocker. I watched lww, was given “no result.” I’m glimg to say that scum knew I would watch him after my RC on D3 and roleblocked me to then kill him without me seeing anything.

Zacch, I do honestly believe that you are town. I want to offer a small word of advice: If you get me lynched, you will almost definitely die soon, and absolutely will be the principal lynch target tomorrow when I inevitably flip as Vision for how you’ve acted today. I doubt you will die tonight, as I will wager that there may not be any more protective roles, and scum will know that I am not lying about my role and that I am Vision, so I will be their next primary target to kill whether by discrediting and lynching, or by killing me during the night period.

Okay, I got it sorted. I misread my results. Night 1 was “No Result.” Night 2 was “Did not see anything.” That was my fault on misinterpreting my results. I think we can partially say it’s sorted now 🤣

Ahhh sorry, I must’ve misread when I skimmed that page. Disregard part of my above post lol

Ninja is not a scum-only role, it is just “generally” scum/TP. “The Ninja modifier is most commonly used to protect the Mafia's (or a Serial Killer's) nightkill from being tracked, but does function to protect other roles from observation as well; the modifier could even be useful for a Cop or similar role to prevent the Mafia discovering that they were investigated, but is generally only seen in the hands of anti-town players, for whom it is a lot more powerful.”

My result was “No result,” which expressly means that I was not blocked, as that returns a different result (unless TW is breaking from the norms that the wiki posits. It sounds like Zacch also was given a “no result” result, which leads to a few things: 1. It sounds like he also may be some kind of tracker/watcher type role, has there ever been a scenario where two watchers target the same person? Would each watcher see the other, or would neither of them see the other? I would presume they would see each other, but maybe not. And if he is some kind of watcher/tracker, he would have seen my action I would presume. 2. Zacch’s role could be a Ninja role. While ninja roles, to my knowledge, are almost exclusively mafia, there are cases where they are town roles (whether the person is aware of it or not). This may be the cause of me not seeing him. 3. Zacch could be scum and trying to get me lynched, though I don’t think this is the case but is definitely possible. I think that just saying something like that without a proper role claim is pointless, and only sows confusion near the end of the day.

For what it’s worth, I think that MK is definitely town and am fairly confident that Preston is. Not much I can say about the other two, though Lyner has been particularly lymey from what I can tell 😆

Sure, that’s a fair point. I wanted to avoid a RC, so I tried to put out a hint, but since you’ve asked. I’ll just come out with it. I’m Vision. Have the Mind Stone. Town Watcher. When I said I was “more than a town aligned power role,” I meant to imply that I am town-aligned, and a power role, but also had more than that. N1 I watched brewers, as he is always a prime target, not much aside from that. Nothing. N2, Preston. I haven’t played with him before but he’s seemed pro-town and is a good addition/posted, and I had a feeling that Zacch might have been scum, so I wanted to see if Zacch *was* scum and did the noob move of trying to kill Preston for what he said, however, nothing came of this. If I’m not lynched today, I have a sneaking suspicion I will die tonight anyways, unless we have another protective role like bodyguard and they decide I’m worth protecting.

I am *more* than a town-aligned power role. I’m not really defending myself anymore because I have said all I need and wish to, and talking to you is a brick wall. If you don’t think it is enough, then that is on you. I thought Kevin’s actions looked scummy, but thought that what he did was with town intentions. Is that so hard to comprehend? lmao And to note what brewers said, I don’t think I ever said that Kevin is scum, just that he had acted scummy. Jazzy has barely posted and seemed to just want to fly under the radar by hopping on the wagon late, is posting less than usual, and my gut (while I admit could just be my hunger) tells me something is off with Jazzy. If you think I wanted to fly under the radar I would have done the opposite of way “I don’t think he’s scum” after saying he was acting scummy all day. That line of thought makes no sense to me. I said what I believed. As per Robert, I don’t really think he is necessarily scum, and I don’t want to vote for him to try and save myself when I am just not confident in it, even knowing that I am town and probably shouldn’t end up dead so soon. I think Preston is more than likely town. I think MK is definitely town. Not many thoughts on everyone else. It is also my first mafia game in over a year, and I have a hectic RL right now so I’m missing a lot of what is being said about me and will fully admit I have not been putting 100% of the effort/time I should be into mafia yet, but I’m hoping to be able to put some walls of text out there after the next week or two (if I don’t end up lynched, of course). That’s not to cut myself any slack, but more to explain why I’m being more shit than usual if I do end up lynched. 😆

Allow me to clarify. Vote: Jazzy. I have a gut feeling about Jazzy, and while he is usually not super active, he is also usually not this quiet. I want to hear more from him.

Good to see a followup from MK. Much of this summarizes my current thoughts and why Velocity is currently top of my list. I am also bolding/highlighting a portion of MK's post that I think is a really good point - the fact that both kills so far are not on anyone we would have expected matches the idea of scum trying to avoid any sort of observational role. I remember TW did small mafia team + SK during the Chamber of Secrets game I played, but we have not seen a 2-kill night yet. Unless there is another protective role or bulletproof out there to have blocked the double kill, there's not yet STRONG evidence for a SK. With that said I won the Chamber of Secrets game as a SK by deliberately skipping my first even-night kill, so I can't rule it out either. Especially if Thanos is the SK and is getting powers based on stones collected. Per my post, Jazzy is still on my list as well. He has since posted that he intends to catch up on the thread soon - please do so ASAP, your silence isn't helping matters! I also bolded a good point you make - both Velocity and Jazzy were hesitant with their votes. This may have been coincidence (Jazzy claims it is just his style), but if we assume Jazzy is scum then it adds impetus for why Velocity would have wanted to avoid stacking the Kevin wagon. And then Robert chimes in with a surprisingly long and detailed list. Grammar aside, this is a bit of a wide net you're casting. I'll limit my focus to your top four/five (since the last two are a tie for you). Your list overall appears to be taken from other peoples' lists and rationales. On the one hand this means I can't disagree with much of it and these are real reasons to be paying attention to people. On the other hand I'm not sure if this is you just going with the flow so long as the flow is away from you. Zacch was my vote yesterday, so I cannot immediately fault your choice to suspect him. You seem to have cut off the end of your paragraph talking about why, but there's not a lot of new content in this. Velocity per above is currently my #1 choice - not much to say there. Lyner is weak to have on your list here as his main fault appears to be borderline inactivity that could end up with him getting modkilled. You could make the argument he's trying to lay low, but he's doing a poor job of it if so. DF - I dont understand your reasoning for equating him to Jazzy, beyond him simply being on the Kevin wagon. Unless I am forgetting something I dont think DF actively tried to equivocate or dodge voting, and he has seemed overall positive thus far. Jazzy your reasons dont seem to make much sense at all - ranking him just by avatar picture and post count when there's more relevant reasons to be talking about him, such as his having tried to avoid voting before? Your vote for Zacch at minimum puts your intentions on record. Whatever other problems there maybe with Robert, this perspective from Brewers confuses me a bit. Ignoring power roles, one of the most relevant bits we have to work from is the wagon that lynched a townie. I would be surprised if NO scum are on Kevin's wagon, even going by numbers alone - his awkward claim would have made it terribly easy to justify after the fact. Robert jumped on the Tony wagon as soon as Kevin started it and then stuck with it til the end of the day. He said it'd piss Brewers off, but the real focus appears to have been that he was supporting Kevin's choice for a competing wagon - it all comes down to Robert claiming he believed Kevin. The question is whether Robert did so with guilty knowledge, or whether he just believed Kevin for its own sake. Looks like LWW's getting into the long post game too, I'll address select bits of it for brevity and avoiding redundancy for points already covered above: This is a dangerous mindset if you're town. Ignoring the fact that a Voyeur is not the easiest role claim for town to prove anyway, he easily could have been a mafia voyeur with a safe claim, so proving his role would not have confirmed him as town. This game is probably a role madness game, and you can bet that scum will try to come up with role claims that make town think they should avoid lynching them. We can't let people off the hook for blatantly scummy actions just because they made a claim that we can't disprove. It's not personality, it's the fact that he said multiple times in D2 that he thinks Tony should have mod killed or replaced, and complained when he was allowed back in the game. He made it pretty clear that he didn't want Tony to be playing (seemingly for OOC reasons) and I think that makes him more suspicious given that Tony was killed the following night. As everyone has pointed out, there is no real reason that Tony should have been killed - if anything, there were reasons for mafia to keep him alive - so I don't think that Robert's stated motives should be ignored, especially in context of him trying to tie himself to Kevin so hard. This makes no sense to me. How could you tell that he's not scum if you also thought he was acting scummy?Kevin himself commented that his ability as Voyeur wasn't the strongest - says what happened but not who. I'm not sure that proving or disproving Kevin's role was ever really up for debate - I was critical of Zacch for even suggesting any sort of test that would involve revealing another role by someone having to confirm him with the Doctor dead. The idealist in me would like to think that the OOC opinions Robert expressed about Tony being in the game wouldn't have affected Robert's actual gameplay even if he is scum. Yeah, this combined with Robert being one of the three votes on the Tony wagon is something that's giving me pause about Robert as well - it could be as you describe, but it's just so OBVIOUS that I'm reflexively unsure about it. ---- Okay, with all of this caught up I'm going to summarize my thoughts/suspects and cast my own vote. Scum Shortlist: Velocity, iSoc2.0, Robert, Zacch, Jazzy Velocity: Strongly stands out to me that he was claiming offline inactivity only to suddenly post within 1 hour of Brewers calling him out and within 2 hours of day's end. This to me screams watching the thread and trying to lay low, only putting in a token presence that he didn't realize would be taken this stronglyHis D2 post tried to straddle the lines and not get officially listed on any vote wagon - scum splitting votes.His D3 post tries to backtrack and say that his D2 "scummy" didnt actually mean "think Kevin is scum, actually I thought he was town but didn't say it"iSoc2:Strangely this doesnt seem to be on anyone else's radar for some reason???iSoc2 took over for an inactive Bryan, posted an attack on LWW at the end of D2, and hasn't been seen sinceVoting for LWW was a new wagon - again showing the potential for scum splitting votes if Bryan had been inactive scumLWW is also someone that I generally consider to have been working in town interests, so for iSoc2 to use LWW "playing along with Kevin's wagon without dding to it" feels wrong - a thin justification to avoid being on any other wagoniSoc2 again hasn't posted on D3 - raises the idea that he is laying low and letting the existing wagon(s) play out. If he doesn't return he may move to my #1 spotRobert:Tied himself to Kevin after Kevin started the Tony wagon, and never moved his vote even as the day endedOne of 2 others on Kevin's Tony wagon after Tony was nightkilled and flipped town.Stated his OOC opinion he didn't want Tony in the gameRobert-as-scum interpretationHe wanted town cred, wanted in early for supporting Kevin, tipped his hand with guilty knowledge by doing soHe used the scum nightkill to remove Tony in support of his OOC reasonsHis presence on the Tony wagon was vote spreading so that not all scum would be on the Kevin wagonD3 post of suspects and reasons looks gleaned from everyone else - nothing new, some nonsensicalRobert-As-Town interpretationHe believed Kevin's claim (or that Kevin wouldn't be so stupid as to claim like this if he was scum), and stayed with Kevin's choice of wagon in an attempt to save himLooking back, Robert's vote came when there were only 4 votes on the Kevin wagon. With 4:2 and plenty time left in day, momentum could have shifted and Tony could have been lynched instead. Thus at that point in the day it was not a safe 'never going to happen' wagonHis presence on the small Tony wagon and his OOC disdain for Tony make him too obvious of a pick following the scum nightkill that flipped Tony as townI have trouble seeing the personal reasons angle given that it was SUCH a bad scum play if he is scum, that it would lose the game for more than just Robert. Maybe idealist again, but throwing the game for multiple people is something I dont want to think of anyoneHis D3 post looking like a repeat of everyone else's could be because he doesn't see anything new to add, but at least he's paying attention to have that muchI am conflicted about Robert, as evidenced by the fact he's merited a more detailed scum/town section. He is #3 on my list for this reason.Zacch:Consistent follower behavior - getting things wrong then backpedaling or joining another vote after people tell him what to doD2 proposed testing Kevin with other power roles after our Doctor was killed, which would have involved more people roleclaiming and outing themselves - this felt like a massive red flagD3 voting for Brewers as 'sus' with no elaboration until prompted, and when prompted it boiled down to little more than gut feeling - that he then promptly abandoned to follow onto Robert ... while still claiming he thinks Brewers is scum?? Why shift your vote to follow someone you suspect is scum??D1 pro-lynch, voting an inactive Jazzy seemingly by accident (at odds with his text), then backpedaling and saying it was to get reactions and baiting peopleD2 OMGUS voteThe fact that Robert voted for Zacch and Zacch subsequently voted for Robert is not lost on me - a mix of OMGUS and following others' direction per above.He was on the Kevin wagon, again followingClaiming newbie as an excuse for his behaviorGiven the laundry list above it might be true that he is new, but it's dangerous to let an excuse like that stand unquestionedZacch is no longer my #1 suspect given everything else going on today, but I could easily see him as scum whether new or not - following other scum cues on how to play and generally trying to stay under the radar by letting others drive the day.Jazzy:Reluctant voting - says it's a style, comments how there are enough votes to lynch Kevin and tries to stay off the wagonAssociation with Velocity who even more strongly tried to stay off the wagon; if Jazzy is scum then Velocity as scum makes more sense to avoid stacking votes, and vice versaRelatively quiet on D3 though has posted they intend to post again soonIf we lynch Velocity and he flips scum, strong FoS on JazzyAnother wall of text for everyone! Thanks for reading this far. I'll conclude with what you all know is coming by staking my position Vote: Velocity I am once again ~~asking for your financial support~~ on mobile, so I apologize for quoting the entire message. I’m not sure what to tell you about my late post lol, I was tired as balls from a long week and wanted to get a post out the door before the day was over so I wouldn’t be entirely missing, if I wanted to lay low I would’ve said nothing and then come back on D3 saying I worked extra long hours, and lie or say I was just super tired from the long week or whatever, but I literally did just work a lot last week and didn’t really have the effort to put in a post before just before deadline, but then I was asked by somebody on discord why I hadn’t posted in a few days so I got some spurs to do so. As per me “staying off of the wagon,” and “not expecting it to be taken so hard,” I again point to my late post. If I was scum, I wouldn’t have said a word and nobody would be questioning me becuase I could’ve just said that I was too busy and forgot or some other excuse, but I came in to give an answer that was my straight out opinion. I’m not entirely sure what you guys think is wrong with “I think the actions Kevin took were scummy, but ultimately were done with the intention of pro-town,” because I think some people misconstrued what he RC’d for in the first place. Somebody questioned if there was a set kill list of people with the infinity stones, or if iSoc was chosen at random/for another reason, and he wanted to help clarify that there was a killing action taken and that iSoc didn’t just die. Granted I don’t think he should’ve RC’d for it, and it was a scummy action to do so *in hindsight,* but I didn’t at the time think he did it with anti-town intentions.

You previously said Kevin was acting scummy, but also held off on voting at all. Today you are saying that your 'acting scummy' statement did not mean you thought he WAS scum after all, which is a completely different impression than you gave at the end of D2. It's easier to claim this elaboration now that the wagon finished and we've seen that Kevin was telling the truth. Even if the day was about to end and your vote wasn't going to move the needle on what wagon would win, taking a more solid position by voting would have let us know where you stood. If you ultimately assumed Kevin was town at the time, you could/should have voted as such. Your lack of a position gives the impression that you are scum that knew Kevin would flip town, and you wanted to not stack more scum onto the existing wagon. The false sense of sympathy reminded me of someone who commits a crime and then immediately comes out and says how bad it is that someone would do that. Almost identical to my day 1 lulz vote for jazzy, but with brewers being scum and his vote being hidden (at night) to us simple town folk. I think brewers had tony night killed and then to throw everyone off his trail, he comes out and says how "unsportsmanlike" this was. Will be funny when we find out later that he's scum. Or Brewers could be on to someone and this was an IRON member making sure Tony never got a fair shot to play. Okay, you have at least elaborated on your position. To make sure I understand: your theory is based on your take that Brewers' outrage feels false to you, and thus you feel it's a scum act intended to follow Brewers-as-scum having been part of killing Tony last night? I still want to hear from iSoc about his end-of-D2 position against LWW. Getting more from MK would probably also be useful now that we've heard from Velocity. Jazzy also needs to post. Aside: Is it just me or does the forum posting interface feel more awkward than it used to? I'd swear that last multiquote didnt show up in the preview Ah well, have an extra copy of Velocity's D2 post for comparison, I ended up not needing that as part of my main post. I’m on mobile right now so I have to quote this entire post for just the part I want lol I don’t think that brewers’ upset at Tony dying was fake, and while he will do some nasty plays to make the town think he’s town when he’s scum, I don’t believe this is one of them. Granted, brewers is excellent and probably one of the best of all of us at making himself seem like a townie when he is scum, but for most I’m going to trust my instincts on this. To reiterate what I posted before, I have a sneaking suspicion that MK is town as he seems to be playing much differently and less actively than when he is usually scum, and that he’s pushing to have my lynched as opposed to trying to keep me alive also says that cause he usually wants me gone as soon as possible if he’s town. I’ve only got good feelings from Preston’s posts, he seems to be doing some good analysis on his end, and I have no reason to suspect him as of now. While not quite a FoS, I’m going to sus everyone who complained about Tony on D2, as I see no other reason to have targeted him as of yet.

I should have clarified what I meant, but I was hella tired and just wanted to get a post out the door before I fell asleep. I thought that Kevin had acted scummy in the way he role claimed and then tried analysis on a one vote train from the guy who died, but I also felt that his intentions *were* pro-town and with nobody counter-claiming black widow I had ultimately assumed that he was town, despite his actions throughout the day. Note that I said he was acting scummy, not that I thought he was scum. As per MK, he always tries to get me voted out when he’s town as he thinks I’m a bad player, and when he’s scum he tries to keep me alive as long as possible to manipulate me, so I honestly think he’s town as of now. And as to who may have the stones, I would wager TW *is* using the movies as the flavor text has been closer to the movies to my knowledge (though with the order of events as it’s happened he has had to change up things a bit), so we can expect Doctor Strange (who is dead) to have (had) the Time stone, Vision to have the Mind Stone, Gamora’s death to give Thanos the Soul Stone, I think didn’t the Nova Corp have the Reality Stone? It’s been a while since I’ve gone through infinity war, so I may be wrong on that but, I’m going to presume there’s a character in this that has the Reality Stone. (Could it also be The Collector?) I believe that Thanos already had two of the six stones at the start, and now has three with the Time Stone, so we do need to be careful on that front.

Sorry everybody, I didn’t post two days ago and then I worked 11 hours yesterday at was out of the house for like 14 hours, so I didn’t have the energy or presence to post. Barring that, I also just don’t have a lot to add. I think kevin was acting scummy, but not necessarily to a point where I’d hammer him now that he’s at 6 votes and deadline being so close. We honestly don’t have a ton of information, hopefully we’ll have more info tomorrow.

Why was iSocialism killed? iSocialism voted for Velocity. Option 1: Velocity is scum and felt threatened so he killed iSocialism. Option 2: Velocity is town and and the scum wanted to frame Velocity. Why frame Velocity? Because he was voting for Tony. I'll go with Option 2. Vote: Tony Velocity's vote on TM was one of the earliest votes on D1, meaning it was a lol vote that velocity didn't bother to change. Your vote for TM is therefor on very flimsy grounds.^ This Also, I realize that I’m generally a cautious player but I wouldn’t kill somebody because they were one of two people who voted me and my only vote when they did so lol, it’s an incredibly obvious tell and while I can be an idiot, I am not a fool!

If I count correctly, Kevin is at 4 votes right now (deadline requirement), needing 3 more to be lynched before then. I do not wish to rush the day, so I will hold off for now, and suggest other people do as well, but he is the highest person on my suspect list as of now. Especially with no other information to go off of.

How do we know what his role was? Just because his character name starts with "doctor", doesn't mean his role was doctor. To assume that he had a doctor role and that there are no doctors roles left would be premature. The real question we should be asking is which of us is vision (the next avenger to get killed)? And then if there is a doctor roll still in play, kevin can confirm if a protection action was taken on vision or not. If he is who he says he is. Now it may not be wise to claim that doctor role if and who it currently is as it will become a prime target at night. Reread it. iSocialism (Doctor Strange), ***an Avenger Doctor,*** has been killed on night 1. He was a Doctor and a doctor Doctor doesn’t seem like a word to me anymore lol

TW occasionally will throw in some roles like that. I believe our only lead right now is Kevin’s sort of left field claim. Nobody was voting for iSoc at the end of D1. As for what brewer’s said, I believe that Kevin was trying to explain when somebody asked if the avengers would die in a specific order at night until thanos gets the stones, I guess he was trying to confirm that may not be the case by saying that Isoc was killed? I’m not sure what his reason was if not that, but it was kind of odd and a claim out of nowhere.

I believe that the vote count on myself is 2 as lww unvoted, not 3. I’m still confused as to why MK came in to vote me out of nowhere and then basically went silent but that’s ok <3

mAn, ShUt ThE fUcK uP

Who would do that to poor SM? Actually isn’t she like, a nudist or something? Anyways, I do think in this scenario a Lynch is our best bet (you can tell in this completely new never seen before mafia forum that I AM A MAN WHO LYNCHES PEOPLE)

When did I ever vote before, without people yelling at me for 3 days? Smh, I am like absolutely entirely different

I literally voted for Tony? my man? 🤔