114 replies to this topic

[Big Ego]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas

It's definitely not just about being black. Anytime you do not cooperate you are likely to get messed up. If you fight back and are a threat, you are likely to be shot and possibly killed. I have been arrested several times, and despite being white and the cops being white, I knew I had to cooperate or risk getting tackled/beat or worse.

That being said, I do think we should continue to strive for a better justice system, non-lethal force, equality in all areas of the justice system, etc, etc.

Parents should strive to teach their children to cooperate with police, not be a criminal, and certainly not to wave a toy gun around that looks real. My parents were always worried about that, because they knew that if I pointed a gun that looked real at people, I could get shot. (again, despite my skin color.. my skin color would not have saved me)

[Road2Victory]

 

Then why the fuck was he yelling I can't breathe if he was being apprehended??? If he was just selling something illegal and breaking up a fight why the fuck subdue him?

Because he was lying on his chest and probably having a heart attack... tends to happen when you weigh like 400 lbs.

Illegal was the key word, a half dozen cops with orders to arrest him, and he was resisting. 

New York City is very serious about their cigarette taxes. My advice if you want to sell illegal cigs... do it in a red state.

I feel bad for this guy and his family, but it's the police. Just stop being a criminal and shut up.

 

Seriously. You called me a criminal and tell me to shut up? I am making my point here. Don't I even have a say on this and an opinion on what I think?

So that means every American citizen doesn't have a 1st amendment right?

And to reiterate my other point, if he was resisting why didn't they just handcuff him? 

First of all illegal untaxed cigarettes are not problem. Its the tax on them that is. 

E]very vote for higher taxes gives police increased authority to exert more force on citizens in more situations. Higher excise taxes inevitably lead to more violent clashes between police and smugglers…Eliminating punitive cigarette taxes would shrink the underground market and help redirect police resources to combating real crimes of force and violence, rather than empowering police to employ violence in the name of tax collection.

Somethings has to change in the police of how they use force. 

[Lysistrata]

Okay that didn't sound right... I wasn't telling "you" to shut up. I apologize.

I was saying that about all the people lying about these cases and I'm just so done with entertaining the narrative.

 

I really don't know what results you expect. What's the end game for you? The police are empowered to keep the peace and enforce the law. If they are thrown in prison for doing their job... no one will want to be a cop anymore. What happens then? Are you willing to except responsibility for that?

 

Thousands of people resist arrest and are thrown to the ground. They live, get an attorney, pay fines, go to jail, get out, and do it all over again. This guy died. How many good people need to lose their jobs, and even their freedom, because this dude ripped off the city and ate himself to an early grave? You have a complaint about what happened... what is your solution?

 

The real problem are these people that hate their own lives, and they want to make everyone else miserable for it. The real problem are these people that make a living off lying to people, and making them believe that if they are black they are getting a raw deal. It's not healthy for our country. All this division, has got to end.

[TheWanderer]

Some cops are assholes and some cops are nice, just like everyone else in every nook and cranny of society. However, they have a mandate to enforce the law so for your own safety be polite and do what they say whether you agree with it or not. If you have been detained/arrested unlawfully find the proper channels to address the problem...lodge a complaint, write to your government representative, community leaders, your lawyers, or whatever.

 

At the end of the day you want to go home to your family (so do the police officers), not be on the receiving end of gunshot or dogpile.

[Road2Victory]

Its okay 

 

I wonder why you would strangle a person and kill him for a minor offense. This just seems stupid. 

 

I think one solution to this problem is to have the Police Commissioner of New York to resign and go far a federal prosecution. Some conservatives were appalled by this decision because there was enough evidence unlike in Missouri. 

 

How come we have the biggest problem of number of police shootings while other countries such as Britain don't? 

 

To answer your question, the cops must be disciplined in a manner that they will not harm the victim unless threatened with force. I do believe in self-defense but there are some exceptions that I will take and I will not take. 

[Lysistrata]

Well I believe the Police Commissioner of New York City serves at the pleasure of that communist, De Blasio. That's up to him.

Everything is going through the proper procedures. People just don't like the outcome, and they won't except anything but their version of justice. The Casey Anthony case, in my opinion, was wrong. The O.J. Simpson case, in my opinion, was wrong. I hated the verdicts, but I accepted them. It's the law, and they all went through their preliminaries and enough evidence was there to merit a trial. People have to respect the decisions of the courts... kind of a "tough shit" moment. We all have to deal with them in life.

[Road2Victory]

But I just hope it won't get violent as it did with the LA riots back in 1992. You are right about that. Something needs to change. I wonder what Robert F. Kennedy wouldve done if he was alive in 1968.

 

 

History always repeats itself. 

[Lysistrata]

You can't change the law because you're afraid that it will get violent. I lived in LA in '92... it was hell and they all should have been shot.

RFK would do exactly what this criminal Eric Holder is doing. Stir up shit for votes and get nothing done. The Feds can only go after a Civil Rights case, and there is no way they will be able to tie that knot. The Kennedy's were criminals too, if you didn't know that.

[ihateaaron]

I see a lot of responses from people who seem to have no law enforcement experience saying "why didn't he just..."

 

Personally, I did law enforcement in the military for 2 years.  It is slightly different than your average patrol beat, but has some of the same elements.

 

There are a lot of factors to consider with any encounter.  

 

Yes non lethal methods can be an option, but they are not always reasonable, or the most available option.  In all my training there has always been an emphasis on escalating appropriately.  This means your actions as a law enforcement officer escalate depending on the actions of the person(s) you are interacting with.

 

A couple of examples.

 

First:

 

I was standing a gate security post at one of my bases.  There was a traffic accident involving an injury just past the gate and the investigating officers asked that we shut traffic down to that road from the gate for their safety while they conducted the investigation.  While waiting for proper signage to arrive I positioned myself to block traffic, with a reflective vest on in the middle of the day, and proceeded to direct drivers where they could go.  I offered directions around if they needed it.  After about ten minutes a vehicle came through the gate.  The driver decided that he wanted to take the road that was shut down. He first attempted to just go around me, and when I moved and gave verbal instructions to change direction he aimed his car towards me.

 

His vehicle did not even begin to slow until I had my gun out of the holster and coming up at him.  He stopped with his bumper against my thigh.

 

There was a lot that happened in that scenario.  It took less than 10 seconds.  I had to go from directing traffic, to correcting illegal behavior, to defending myself from a potentially deadly assault with a vehicle.

 

In this case I could assume that he was merely trying to intimidate me so he could take the path he wanted, but if I am wrong, I am going to be hurt or dead.  I responded with an escalation of force that mirrored his escalation.  Had he not applied the brakes I would have had to fire my weapon.  I am grateful that I did not have to.

 

Second:

 

Standing another watch on a pier that has 4 ships when a call comes on the radio about a military involved shooting just off base.  Details are sketchy, but they know it was a military member who shot a military member, the shooter was in a dark colored Honda Civic, and was last seen headed towards the base.

 

The shooting happened less than a mile off base, and over ten minutes before the radio call.  This meant the shooter was potentially on the base already before we could initiate a lock-down and inspect incoming vehicles at the main gate.

 

At this point the base went on lock down.  No vehicles were being allowed on, and all vehicles matching the description attempting to leave were being searched.

 

A few minutes after we go to a state of full lock down I notice a car that is parked just up the road from the pier.  Headlights on, pointed in our direction.  It appears to be a Honda Civic.  After confirming with the senior person on watch that it potentially matched the description we radioed it in to the patrol units.  Literally as we finished the call in the car started slowly rolling towards our gate.  At about 100 yards our senior member advised the rest of our crew to get into their defensive positions and be ready.  The two of us were obligated to stand at the gate mostly exposed.

 

As the vehicle was about 30 yards away he accelerated slightly and pointed his car towards the gate.  This put his headlights directly in our faces.  Both myself and the senior officer drew our weapons and gave verbal warnings.

 

The vehicle immediately stopped.  The headlights were shut off, and his hands came out the window.

 

The driver quickly explained that he was there to pick up his friends, who just happened to be sitting on the pier behind us waiting for the lock down to end.

 

Again, I am thankful that the situation was able to be resolved without bloodshed, but it only took a matter of seconds for the entire scenario to play out.

 

In either situation a moment of hesitation could have potentially put me in a position where I would no longer have been able to defend myself if needed.

 

I could go on, but I think that lays enough background.

 

So why do I relate these stories?  In the Ferguson case, which I have watched closely, there has been a lot of misinformation and assumptions made.  If you want the full story, or as close as we are going to get to it, take the time and read through the Grand Jury documents.  Yes there is a lot, but there is a lot in there that will help clarify some of the misinformation out there.

 

One of those things being the fact of whether or not his hands were up.  Yes there were witnesses to the shooting.  Yes some said he had his hands up.  Read the Grand Jury documents.  Those witnesses were all discredited by the physical evidence, or admitted that they did not actually see the incident, but just repeated what they were told by someone who said they saw it.  Those people that the media went straight to.  Yes, they lied.  Yes, they helped to create far more tension and anger then there needed to be.

 

For those asking if he really needed to shoot him so many times, or why didn't he just use a (insert non lethal instrument here).  Read the Grand Jury documents.  Officer Wilson was struck in his car multiple times.  Brown attempted to take his gun and then began to run away.  Officer Wilson exited his car and ordered Brown to stop.  Brown then turned around and charged at Officer Wilson.  He had already been assaulted, and Brown had already attempted to take his weapon.  Witnesses said Officer Wilson shouted stop at least four times before he fired the first shot at Brown as he charged.  Officer Brown fired four shots in rapid succession, all of which were aimed at center mass.  Brown halted, and then charged again, and as Officer Wilson fired two more shots, Brown's head came down.

 

Obviously there is some potential wiggle in the exact happenings, and I have not made it through all the documents, but that is the account put together with Officer Wilson's testimony, the autopsy reports (there were multiple), witness statements, and physical evidence gathered at the scene.  It is the most complete look at the whole scenario.

 

It is a tragedy that a young man lost his life that day.  I would not wish that upon anyone, not the dead, not his family, not his friends.  But I also feel for Officer Wilson.  He had to make a decision to take a life, and that will be with him for the rest of his life.

 

On the topic of Police use of force.  I have seen so many people ramble and rant on about how the police are always going way over board, using excessive force all the time, every encounter with the police means you are going to get killed.  How many of these cases do you see or hear about?  I can think of maybe a handful this year.  But to be generous lets say there is 1000 reported.  Do you know the number of Police to civilian interactions there are every year?

 

According to the Department of Justice, approximately 17% of the American population had a direct interaction with a Police Officer in 2008.  That is a huge chunk of the population.  There were over 40 Million interactions in 2008.  That means that the VAST majority of interactions with the Police go unnoticed because it is just a quick blip on your radar after violating a minor law.

 

The cases where excessive force is used are not okay.  I am all for doing whatever it takes to eliminate it altogether.  However, the Police are not the only problem.  There is a lot of issues that need to be addressed in the general public.  Among them a general sense of entitlement and lack of respect for the laws of our local and larger government establishments.

 

We can argue until we are blue in the face about what Officer Wilson could have done better, how to implement less than lethal force, whether or not it was a racial issue, what Officer Wilson's motives were, and whatever point we decide to look at next.  In the end, non of the "what ifs" and "if onlys" can change what happened.  What we need to do is look at this objectively and see what created the situation, not the results.  And I am not talking about the stop for jaywalking or robbery.

 

I am talking about the popularization of the "thug" lifestyle.  The sense of entitlement that people in our country have.  This sentiment I see scattered about that this is not my problem because it's not my: neighborhood, skin color, income level, etc.

 

This is all of our problem.  It is up to us as individuals, and as a society, to correct the moral failings that have helped to create this mess.  Otherwise we are all just going to end up victims or criminals.

[ihateaaron]

I apologize the the wall o text/rambling post above

[DeathMerchant]

I apologize the the wall o text/rambling post above

I read it, thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences.

[TheWanderer]

As did I. Thanks for sharing, ihateaaron.

[Lysistrata]

I apologize the the wall o text/rambling post above

On the contrary... everyone needs to read it. Thanks IHA.

[Road2Victory]

Ok I read it too. 

 

But in New York its a different story. How would you say if somebody was resisting arrest and putting him in chokehold is that the right thing to do? I know its a police technique to take down some crinimal this way. But for some minor offense why does he needs to put in chokehold? It's clearly stated in the video. 

 

I agree what these two individuals I said on an article I recently read. 

"Can you imagine what Sam Adams would have said at the news that a man had been killed over cigarette taxes?" tweeted the National Review's Charles Cooke, adding "No taxation without asphyxiation."

 

“This man was unarmed, he was selling cigarettes -- I mean this wasn’t robbery, he was selling  cigarettes," said Fox News anchor Greta Van Sustern. "We don’t do the death penalty for selling cigarettes illegally on the streets."

[Lysistrata]

Absolutely agree. New York City has jacked up the taxes on cigs so high that it's big money for people like Garner to head to the Indian Reservation and buy cigs where there is no tax, and bring them back to the city and sell them one at a time for mass profit. The cig store owners get really pissed off and complain to the cops. The cops roam in teams to arrest the street cig sellers. Man dies because of a cigarette tax. The cops were doing what they are ordered to do... but the civil suit that will come is easily won... the family will get rich and the city will pay bigtime.

[Road2Victory]

yup but it was so obvious he wasn't harming any of the officers. At least they will win the lawsuit, theres no doubt about that. I wonder what mite happen to the officer he is charged by the feds. 

[ihateaaron]

Ok I read it too. 

 

But in New York its a different story. How would you say if somebody was resisting arrest and putting him in chokehold is that the right thing to do? I know its a police technique to take down some crinimal this way. But for some minor offense why does he needs to put in chokehold? It's clearly stated in the video. 

 

I agree what these two individuals I said on an article I recently read. 

"Can you imagine what Sam Adams would have said at the news that a man had been killed over cigarette taxes?" tweeted the National Review's Charles Cooke, adding "No taxation without asphyxiation."

 

“This man was unarmed, he was selling cigarettes -- I mean this wasn’t robbery, he was selling  cigarettes," said Fox News anchor Greta Van Sustern. "We don’t do the death penalty for selling cigarettes illegally on the streets."

New York is a different story to some extent.

 

It was said somewhere above, but he was going to be arrested because he was violating the law.  He knew he was violating the law.  He was doing it to make money.

 

Again, his death is not okay.  I never like to see someone hurt or killed while being taken into custody.  But remember, he was not some innocent bystander either.  It is almost never a black and white issue, especially in the cases where the media gets going.

 

I am not sure that I would have done a choke hold on the guy, but I will tell you this.  I once had a guy who was about 6'7" and 325 pounds that had to be taken into custody.  It took three of us to get his drunken butt on the ground and zip tie cuffed.  He was face down and started complaining that he was not able to breath.  We attempted to adjust his position but could not alleviate his issue.  I cut his ties and he sucker punched me.

 

Do you think I hesitate now when people tell me they can't breath?  Yes.  I have a distinct lack of trust for anyone who says that.  Does that make it right.  No.  Thankfully I never had anyone die like that while in custody, but remember that there is always more to the story, especially when it concerns what the media reports in Police related incidents.  The sensational news gets the ratings, so the real news just gets tossed to the side.

[Road2Victory]

Yeah I agree with you and everything u said. 

 

I just don't get why the police tries to accuse other people of doing wrong things when they are doing the right things. For example the bystander himself  (the one who was recording this whole scene) was charged  for possessing illegal weapons? 1. He didn't have any weapons in his car nor he didn't do anything to harmful. 2. He was just standing there. 3. I think the police department is trying to cover it up probably being corrupt. 

 

I respect personally police officers (and no offense to anyone who have served in the police) but I personally do think police should be protecting the community not ruling the community. 

[Lysistrata]

yup but it was so obvious he wasn't harming any of the officers. At least they will win the lawsuit, theres no doubt about that. I wonder what mite happen to the officer he is charged by the feds. 

The only way the Feds can charge him is a violation of civil rights. They have to prove he killed the man because he was black.

They tried that with George Zimmerman and they could not make a case. Like I said, they are stirring up shit for votes. No chance.

 

Any way they can create division... Black/White, Women/Men, Rich/Poor, Gay/Straight, ect... raises cash for Democrats.

The one time the table turned on them was the Tea Party. They lost their mind when Conservatives started protesting against them.

The country can't take any more division, and if it doesn't stop it will get out of control.

[Road2Victory]

Hmmm yea I guess. They could use previous evidence that the officer was racist because I read a report the three people sued the officer over racial issues and stuff. Like he was abusing the three people and such. 

 

But this case actually unifies everyone together. And until something happens, somethings got to change first.