114 replies to this topic

[Big Ego]

Well said, ihateaaron

[ihateaaron]

And just for the record, I do not believe that the police are perfect by any means.  There are bad apples.  I have family and friends in all levels and areas of law enforcement, and they will all tell you that there a jerks and losers that make it into the ranks.  They try to police themselves, but there is also a sense of brotherhood, and lets be honest, if they do not look out for each other, then the media would eat them alive.  There would not be a hope for any law enforcement agency.

 

In my opinion, the best way to get things righted is to start by eliminating the need for police interactions.  The less reason you have for police to bother you, then less likely there is to be an incident.

 

I understand that there is still disparities in who gets stopped, and who gets arrested, but there are other factors as well.  We have societal issues that run deep.  One of the best written articles I saw on the whole Ferguson event was by a Black Pastor from the Mid-West somewhere.  He said that the issue is not the police, it is not the color of the skin, it is that these kids are growing up in families without their fathers.  You have something like a 70% rate of one parent homes in these gang infested areas.  That generates a culture where these kids look for someone to create a family to fill that void.  Gangs, violence, drugs, and all the other crap is exponentially higher in these communities.

 

It comes down to people not accepting responsibility for their actions.  And it has created a vicious cycle that is creating a new generation of the same issues.

[Road2Victory]

Yeah that is so true. That is why other countries such as Britain have few violent incidents with the police. The police stay out of their way. 

 

 

Poverty is the problem and is the people's motivation to gain something. It is probably the income gap in the US, just like Lysistrata listed out the possible factors into play. 

[ihateaaron]

To clarify, and I do agree with you, these are not the only issues.  There is a long list off issues.

 

Is there really a place to start, or do we just go after all of it at once?  I mean really, how can we fix it.  That should be where our energy is focused.  Not on hating people.

[Lysistrata]

I just found out that Eric Garner was arrested 31 times for selling illegal smokes.

So I wonder how many times the cops had to tackle this guy to the ground? It may have been a case of "here we go again".

[Road2Victory]

But he didn't have to die. I think the tax should be eliminated and we wouldn't have this problem 

[Niels]

I just found out that Eric Garner was arrested 31 times for selling illegal smokes.

So I wonder how many times the cops had to tackle this guy to the ground? It may have been a case of "here we go again".

 

I'm curious what the rules are for police discretion.  They clearly do have it since we're all familiar with people caught clearly speeding getting off with a warning.

I just can't see anyone getting really exciting about stopping the great scourge of jaywalkers, or in this case, cigarette tax evaders.

[Teufel Hunden]

I have to repeat myself here. DON'T DO ILLEGAL THINGS AND THE COPS WON'T BOTHER YOU. IF THEY DO THAT IS AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT ISSUE. second I have to say this because the point was brought up that the guy was yelling "I can't breath." Due to a thing called science we know that he is lying when he says this. I will explain. speech and all sounds made through the mouth come from air being pushed through your vocal cords. The air makes the vocal cords vibrate which creates sounds. There for you can not talk or yell if you can not breath. He might have not been able to breath as well but he could definitely still breath. It's science. ihateaaron makes very good points and i totally agree with him. Police are humans too and aren't perfect but the problem is not them. The problem is society. The only reason this is such a big deal is because we have worthless people in this country who have this attitude of "The man is keeping me down" when in reality they skipped school to get high, dropped out, had a kid at 16, and are sitting at home on welfare living off everybody else while they get high and have more kids. Then they see something like this and they play the "We can yell the loudest we are right" game and get the media stirred up and then they "protest" which means instead of sitting at home all day they go out into a public place in front of cameras while the rest of us work and continue to yell about how the man is killing their kids and keeping them down. It's really sad that america has become what it is today. I'm thinking about leaving and living with the aussies.

[Lysistrata]

I'm thinking about leaving and living with the aussies.

Funny you should say that... we have friends there.

If things get too bad we'll try Texas. If that don't work we'll be drinking Foster's and choking on Vegemite.

[Ivan V]

 

The only way the Feds can charge him is a violation of civil rights. They have to prove he killed the man because he was black.

They tried that with George Zimmerman and they could not make a case. Like I said, they are stirring up shit for votes. No chance.

 

Any way they can create division... Black/White, Women/Men, Rich/Poor, Gay/Straight, ect... raises cash for Democrats.

The one time the table turned on them was the Tea Party. They lost their mind when Conservatives started protesting against them.

The country can't take any more division, and if it doesn't stop it will get out of control.

 

 

The Zimmerman case was bullshit, it was funny how the media posted images of Trayvon as an innocent little kid... probably photos that were five years old.  The kid ended up being a thug, and the fact that a half Hispanic, half white man shot at him probably was the reason why so much crap was raised about it.  African Americans tend to highly distrust whites and hispanics, at least from my experience here in California.

 

Also, I have to correct you, division raises cash for the American political machine, not solely Democrats.  It's called division of labor, and it has been going on in this nation long before 1776.

 

As a side case, I also find it ironic that here in Southern California when a homeless, mentally ill black woman was forcefully arrested by a California Highway Patrol officer for wandering barefoot all over a freeway did not cause any sort of stir at all here.  No rioting, no looting.  The local media played it down while the national news tried to make it into a big story but failed. I did find it funny, though, that the woman's family, after abandoning her to the streets, came out of the woodwork and demanded "justice".  Justice pretty much means a fat paycheck.  The CHP officer was just doing his job.  It's illegal to walk on freeways.  She was a danger to herself and to traffic (for people swerving and slowing to avoid hitting her) and refused to cease her actions.

[Lysistrata]

Hi Ivan, Welcome to our conversation. I have to agree with you Sir. I am a fellow Southern Californian that moved away from that beautiful state... it just turned too blue for me, and it's not changing anytime soon. I'm familiar with the case you're talking about. I pay very close attention to national news and that's where I saw it. The biggest problem with all these cases is people don't stick to the facts. It's when you drift away from the evidence sitting in front of you, and start trying to create a case based on assumption of how people feel, that is when it just doesn't make sense anymore. It's like "Hate Crime" legislation just seems so crazy to me. I mean really... punish the crime, not the motive.

[Ivan V]

Ehh, California isn't as blue as it seems in my opinion.  Some of the stricter laws are slowly getting abolished (i.e. concealed carry is getting easier to obtain) New York is way worse.  California is more populist anyway, and its main flaw is that its government is close to a true democracy (which is why anyone can get a few thousand signatures for a law that sounds like a good idea to put it to state vote).  Taxes suck but they wouldn't be so bad if the Feds didn't take so much.  And the state taxes are needed after a couple of decades of spending sprees by both Democrats and Republicans in the state government.  We're just paying for past administrations and it's needed to get our state back in the black.  That's at least one positive of Jerry Brown as of now, even though I am ambivalent on him.  Plus, work keeps me here in this state anyway and it's hard to leave it for somewhere else in my opinion.

 

My dad jokes that all the people that lived in Watts and Compton moved out to Ferguson because it's too expensive to live on welfare here.

[Samus]

 

 

The only way the Feds can charge him is a violation of civil rights. They have to prove he killed the man because he was black.

They tried that with George Zimmerman and they could not make a case. Like I said, they are stirring up shit for votes. No chance.

 

Any way they can create division... Black/White, Women/Men, Rich/Poor, Gay/Straight, ect... raises cash for Democrats.

The one time the table turned on them was the Tea Party. They lost their mind when Conservatives started protesting against them.

The country can't take any more division, and if it doesn't stop it will get out of control.

 

 

The Zimmerman case was bullshit, it was funny how the media posted images of Trayvon as an innocent little kid... probably photos that were five years old.  The kid ended up being a thug, and the fact that a half Hispanic, half white man shot at him probably was the reason why so much crap was raised about it.  African Americans tend to highly distrust whites and hispanics, at least from my experience here in California.

 

Also, I have to correct you, division raises cash for the American political machine, not solely Democrats.  It's called division of labor, and it has been going on in this nation long before 1776.

 

As a side case, I also find it ironic that here in Southern California when a homeless, mentally ill black woman was forcefully arrested by a California Highway Patrol officer for wandering barefoot all over a freeway did not cause any sort of stir at all here.  No rioting, no looting.  The local media played it down while the national news tried to make it into a big story but failed. I did find it funny, though, that the woman's family, after abandoning her to the streets, came out of the woodwork and demanded "justice".  Justice pretty much means a fat paycheck.  The CHP officer was just doing his job.  It's illegal to walk on freeways.  She was a danger to herself and to traffic (for people swerving and slowing to avoid hitting her) and refused to cease her actions.

 

 

I'm guessing no riots because an unarmed kid wasn't killed, but hey that's just me.

[ihateaaron]

I just found out that Eric Garner was arrested 31 times for selling illegal smokes.

So I wonder how many times the cops had to tackle this guy to the ground? It may have been a case of "here we go again".

 

He was a repeat offender known to the arresting officers.  Mostly non violent offenses, but he did have a history.

 

Not that it makes a difference on how he should be handled, but it is human nature to escalate more quickly with people you know are going to cause you more issues.  It also does not make the officers wrong for escalating.  They knew he was a large man who had a history of resisting.  Every time a person resists arrest there is a significant chance of injury for both the subject and the arresting officer(s).  The one thing I can promise you is that the officers all want to go home at the en of the day, just like everyone else.  Their safety has to be taken into consideration when talking about any

 

A couple points for talking on this case.  First, the Grand Jury did not find enough evidence to bring a case against the officer.  And from the evidence presented this is the correct finding.  The only evidence we have in the case is the video and witness statements that have been presented in the press.  From those we can gather what information we can and compare it against the standards.

 

Why do I say there should be no criminal charges?  The officer applied a chokehold that many are calling "illegal".  The chokehold is not illegal.  It is against New York Police policy.  There is a distinct difference.  If I violate work policy I can be administratively punished, up to and including firing depending not he offense, but that does not necessarily mean I have committed a criminal offense.  I could have just been late too many times, or told my boss to kick bricks.  In this case the officer violated policy, but did not commit a crime. 

 

The coroner labeled the death a homicide.  That means the officer murdered him!  No.  The media has been quick to label it that way.  But that is not true.   Homicide is by definition "the killing of one human being by another".  Yes it can mean murder, and often times that is how our society views it, but from he medical examiners point of view he determines whether the death was caused by a person or not.  The investigators determine whether or not there was motive that would indicate murder.  While his death was a homicide, the press calling it "the murder of an unarmed black man" is nothing more than twisting terms and inciting hate and anger.  The Media in these cases is using sensationalism to sell headlines, and we as a society are eating it up.  So it will continue.

 

But he didn't have to die. I think the tax should be eliminated and we wouldn't have this problem 

 

That is a point I was making to someone.  The tax is creating a market where some numbers show over 60% of the cigarettes sold are being illegally brought in.  Over 60%.  That tells me there is a major issue here.  The Police are obligated to enforce the laws, and while some discretion is allowed, when the city officials want a crack down, they have little choice in how they will handle these violations.  I am almost certain that the officials in City Hall wanted a crackdown on these people smuggling in the cigarettes, and the officers chose the people they knew to be repeat offenders, and that is where they felt they could make the biggest impact.

 

His death is a tragedy.  There is no arguing that.  Very rarely do I feel like the world is a better place when a death is involved.  No matter what the history, this guy was not so bad as to be better gone.

 

That being said, it was stated above very well.  Don't do illegal things.  If you willfully violate the law your chances of an encounter with the police increases dramatically.  To ignore the fact that the people involved in these recent issues had criminal histories is not fair, and being used to manipulate the general population.  The media is using all its tricks to get your clicks.  By putting a picture of Treyvon Martin from several years before the incident, the media portrayed him as being an innocent child.  Which was not the case.  He did not deserve to die, but he was not as innocent as portrayed.  In the Mike Brown case the media did the same thing.  They put up pictures of him from years before, or where he looked like a model student headed to college.  They ignored the pictures of him waving wads of cash, holding guns, and smoking marijuana.  It better fit the story line that was going to get more people upset and willing to read their story.

 

The news has become a business entity entirely.  It is no longer about reporting the news, it is about reporting what will get you to watch, read, or click.  Facts be damned.

[Ivan V]

 

I'm guessing no riots because an unarmed kid wasn't killed, but hey that's just me.

 

 

A fist is a weapon. 

Edited by Ivan V, 06 December 2014 - 05:28 PM.

[ihateaaron]

 

 

 

The only way the Feds can charge him is a violation of civil rights. They have to prove he killed the man because he was black.

They tried that with George Zimmerman and they could not make a case. Like I said, they are stirring up shit for votes. No chance.

 

Any way they can create division... Black/White, Women/Men, Rich/Poor, Gay/Straight, ect... raises cash for Democrats.

The one time the table turned on them was the Tea Party. They lost their mind when Conservatives started protesting against them.

The country can't take any more division, and if it doesn't stop it will get out of control.

 

 

The Zimmerman case was bullshit, it was funny how the media posted images of Trayvon as an innocent little kid... probably photos that were five years old.  The kid ended up being a thug, and the fact that a half Hispanic, half white man shot at him probably was the reason why so much crap was raised about it.  African Americans tend to highly distrust whites and hispanics, at least from my experience here in California.

 

Also, I have to correct you, division raises cash for the American political machine, not solely Democrats.  It's called division of labor, and it has been going on in this nation long before 1776.

 

As a side case, I also find it ironic that here in Southern California when a homeless, mentally ill black woman was forcefully arrested by a California Highway Patrol officer for wandering barefoot all over a freeway did not cause any sort of stir at all here.  No rioting, no looting.  The local media played it down while the national news tried to make it into a big story but failed. I did find it funny, though, that the woman's family, after abandoning her to the streets, came out of the woodwork and demanded "justice".  Justice pretty much means a fat paycheck.  The CHP officer was just doing his job.  It's illegal to walk on freeways.  She was a danger to herself and to traffic (for people swerving and slowing to avoid hitting her) and refused to cease her actions.

 

 

I'm guessing no riots because an unarmed kid wasn't killed, but hey that's just me.

 

 

What about the case where the unarmed white male was shot by a black officer in Utah?  No riots.  It was a case very similar to the Mike Brown case, but it garnered almost no media attention.

 

Are there problems that happened here.  Yes.  No doubt.  When a person dies during a police encounter there is always room for improvement.  Most police departments review their policy after every police involved shooting.  They are constantly looking for ways to improve their process.  Every time an officers fires their weapon, or has  person significantly injured or killed in an arrest, the media puts them under a microscope.  Some even go as far as to try and ruin the officers lives.  Do you think they want to endure that?

 

To address a point that I have seen stated many times.  The phrase "an unarmed kid" keeps being thrown around.  Was he unarmed?  Yes.  Is that the whole story?  Not by a long shot.  Was Mike Brown a kid?  I don't think so.  He was 18, which makes you legally an adult.  He had all the rights of an adult, and at his age I was in the military getting ready to head overseas.  Did the US send a child to war?  Mike Brown physically assaulted the police officer.  Have you ever been punched in the face by someone?  It hurts, and I don't like it.  Most people don't.  Have you ever had a physical altercation with someone larger than you?  It is scary.  I have had to take down larger people, and it is always a scary proposition.  Physical size makes a difference.  That is why there is weight classes in most fighting sports.  If you watched the UFC before they had weight classes, there was some fights where guys had little to no chance of winning due to size disparity.

 

There are a lot of factors being ignored when you just say that the officer shot an unarmed kid.  Try looking at the entire picture and making an argument from there.  I am all for a good discussion, and hoping that good discussion will create change, but the rhetoric being spewed by the media is making that nearly impossible.

[Samus]

Actually nvm

Edited by Samus, 06 December 2014 - 06:57 PM.

[ihateaaron]

We don't have to agree to have conversation.  So feel free to speak your opinion.  I may not agree with it, but that doesn't make it wrong, or mine right.

[Samus]

We don't have to agree to have conversation.  So feel free to speak your opinion.  I may not agree with it, but that doesn't make it wrong, or mine right.

it's not that, I just find anything that I can mention regarding the way I feel can easily be contradicted, so just withheld the post rather than look stupid

[ihateaaron]

I understand that.

 

Sometimes the format comes across as unfriendly to an opinion.  I have dealt with that.  Know your stance, and don't be afraid to state it, and back it up.

 

The funny thing is, the reality is rarely inline with either of the extreme parties.  Even though they are the loudest.