93 replies to this topic

[Perez]

 

ITS OFFICIAL!!!

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/02/02/politics/us-ukraine-lethal-aid/index.html

It's still being discussed, just as it has been for the past year.

 

Party pooper.

[Ghux]

ITS OFFICIAL!!!
 
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/02/02/politics/us-ukraine-lethal-aid/index.html

It's still being discussed, just as it has been for the past year.

Party pooper.

If you cared to read the first sentence of the article, "The United States is now considering sending lethal aid to help the Ukrainian government fend off attacks from pro-Russian rebels in the eastern part of Ukraine."

The US has been "considering" it since the situation began. Nothing has changed. (okay, maybe they're considering it a bit more, but still not committing. )

[Fox Fire]

 

 

If you cared to read the first sentence of the article, "The United States is now considering sending lethal aid to help the Ukrainian government fend off attacks from pro-Russian rebels in the eastern part of Ukraine."

The US has been "considering" it since the situation began. Nothing has changed. (okay, maybe they're considering it a bit more, but still not committing. )

 

I'm not sure why we would consider helping a nation that constantly defends SS-Galizien; a Ukrainian SS division responsible for massive war crimes and murders. Not only that, but it was only formed for the sole purpose of fighting USSR after the loss at Stalingrad, when just before, all Slavs were considered inferior and unworthy of the SS. Those motherfuckers even have memorials for those dicks and other Nazi colaborators to celebrate their existence as some proud Ukrainian nationalist achievment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lychakiv_Cemetery

http://www.kyivpost.com/multimedia/photo/galician-ss-division-327411.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_%281st_Galician%29

http://rt.com/news/155364-ukraine-nazi-division-march/

http://remember.org/ideas/bukovina.html

 

The nation itself seems to be quite fond of SS-Galizien and every Ukrainian source to speak of them seems to always dismiss their atrocities.

 

Not that Russia is much greater place, and Putin is a douche, but I'm actually kinda pro-Russian on this just considering the ammount of blatantly open flailing of Nazi inspired flags and general approval of Nazism on the western side. Plus the fact that if the east WANTS to be part of Russia, who are we to stand in their way?

Oh wait, I forgot. Only Murica is allowed to invade nations in the name of democracy. When Russia does it, it's evil.

 

But maybe it's not so surprising that I support this move, considering I also supported Russia during the 2008 Ossetian conflict.

[Lysistrata]

Expanding on what Foxy said about us bringing in democracy...

Somewhere someone thought that all we need to do is give them money, McDonalds, Starbucks, General Motors, and Apple and everyone will just fall in line. Then they buy bombs, eat burgers, drink our coffee, mount machine guns on the trucks, and detonate the roadside bombs with iPhones... what could possibly go wrong?

[James]

Expanding on what Foxy said about us bringing in democracy...

Somewhere someone thought that all we need to do is give them money, McDonalds, Starbucks, General Motors, and Apple and everyone will just fall in line. Then they buy bombs, eat burgers, drink our coffee, mount machine guns on the trucks, and detonate the roadside bombs with iPhones... what could possibly go wrong?

huh?

[Lysistrata]

Oh sorry James... it's a comment on how the USA spreads democracy into countries that don't want it.

[Perez]

More developments:

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/02/09/europe/ukraine-conflict/index.html

 

Its going to happen sooner or later. 

[Oliva]

I really hope we don't deploy, would be heaps bad fighting against the Russians.

[James]

I don't see how the United States is allowed to practice the Monroe Doctrine, but when another country doesn't want a major military power in their backyard they are evil.

[Khandov]

Like it or not, every major power and especially the US gov, thinks according to attitude "If me steal cow, good. If other steal my cow, bad". So far, Im unable to name any exception.

 

It was a mistake on Russian side to fuel conflict in East Ukraine; while the takeover of Crimea was Putin's success, all the East Ukraine has brought him, are sanctions.

 

 

I'm not sure why we would consider helping a nation that constantly defends SS-Galizien; a Ukrainian SS division responsible for massive war crimes and murders. Not only that, but it was only formed for the sole purpose of fighting USSR after the loss at Stalingrad, when just before, all Slavs were considered inferior and unworthy of the SS. Those motherfuckers even have memorials for those dicks and other Nazi colaborators to celebrate their existence as some proud Ukrainian nationalist achievment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lychakiv_Cemetery

http://www.kyivpost.com/multimedia/photo/galician-ss-division-327411.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_%281st_Galician%29

http://rt.com/news/155364-ukraine-nazi-division-march/

http://remember.org/ideas/bukovina.html

 

The nation itself seems to be quite fond of SS-Galizien and every Ukrainian source to speak of them seems to always dismiss their atrocities.

Let me elaborate on this already filling post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

 

Seems the attitude "If our nazism, whatever, if their nazism, bad", is also applicable to Ukraine. And Russia too.

[Wu Ming]

I don't see how the United States is allowed to practice the Monroe Doctrine, but when another country doesn't want a major military power in their backyard they are evil.

 

Because the US is a global hegemon and has the means via aircraft carriers and foreign military bases to project power into the backyards of those countries. It's as simple as that. The reverse is not true.

[James]

Like it or not, every major power and especially the US gov, thinks according to attitude "If me steal cow, good. If other steal my cow, bad". So far, Im unable to name any exception.

 

It was a mistake on Russian side to fuel conflict in East Ukraine; while the takeover of Crimea was Putin's success, all the East Ukraine has brought him, are sanctions.

 

 

I'm not sure why we would consider helping a nation that constantly defends SS-Galizien; a Ukrainian SS division responsible for massive war crimes and murders. Not only that, but it was only formed for the sole purpose of fighting USSR after the loss at Stalingrad, when just before, all Slavs were considered inferior and unworthy of the SS. Those motherfuckers even have memorials for those dicks and other Nazi colaborators to celebrate their existence as some proud Ukrainian nationalist achievment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lychakiv_Cemetery

http://www.kyivpost.com/multimedia/photo/galician-ss-division-327411.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_%281st_Galician%29

http://rt.com/news/155364-ukraine-nazi-division-march/

http://remember.org/ideas/bukovina.html

 

The nation itself seems to be quite fond of SS-Galizien and every Ukrainian source to speak of them seems to always dismiss their atrocities.

Let me elaborate on this already filling post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

 

Seems the attitude "If our nazism, whatever, if their nazism, bad", is also applicable to Ukraine. And Russia too.

 

The sanctions are hurting europe far more than RUssia. Germany has taken a huge economic hit, and greece is already looking at leaving the EU for Ruissian support. The EU is putting pressure on the US to stop the non-sense. Western europe has to end the conflict by next winter or Putin can get real mean.
 

 

I don't see how the United States is allowed to practice the Monroe Doctrine, but when another country doesn't want a major military power in their backyard they are evil.

 

Because the US is a global hegemon and has the means via aircraft carriers and foreign military bases to project power into the backyards of those countries. It's as simple as that. The reverse is not true.

 

The US military complex is already collapsing on itself. We won't be able to sustain it at 600+ billion dollars a year. China, Russia, Africa, and the Middle East are getting to much to handle. Not to mention that western Europe is rebelling against US control.

[Khandov]

 

The sanctions are hurting europe far more than RUssia. Germany has taken a huge economic hit, and greece is already looking at leaving the EU for Ruissian support. The EU is putting pressure on the US to stop the non-sense. Western europe has to end the conflict by next winter or Putin can get real mean.

I knew already that the EU is right now in trouble. But as I found out from US friend, the US has decreased production of oil, in response to OPEC's operation of flooding the market with it. It will resume on full speed once the prices are back to normal. It is most likely that OPEC decreased the prices that way, due to pressure of the US. Now, Russia already is panting hard on those developments, given how reliant it is on fossil fuels. This whole debacle is not only heavily connected to all kind of conflcts, it looks like a conflict itself, one fought with and against the resources and economies. Of course, at the current state, Europe is doomed to lose more than gain, given how it's holding together.

[Robert2424]

Unrelated, 

 

President Obama has a formal request to do the same thing against ISIS now. This is our strategy? 

[Fox Fire]

Unrelated, 

 

President Obama has a formal request to do the same thing against ISIS now. This is our strategy? 

Repeating the same thing over and over with no results has been American military strategy since Vietnam.

[Shahenshah]

I'm glad people we have moved past moralist bs theory and see this as a power play.

[James]

 

 

The sanctions are hurting europe far more than RUssia. Germany has taken a huge economic hit, and greece is already looking at leaving the EU for Ruissian support. The EU is putting pressure on the US to stop the non-sense. Western europe has to end the conflict by next winter or Putin can get real mean.

I knew already that the EU is right now in trouble. But as I found out from US friend, the US has decreased production of oil, in response to OPEC's operation of flooding the market with it. It will resume on full speed once the prices are back to normal. It is most likely that OPEC decreased the prices that way, due to pressure of the US. Now, Russia already is panting hard on those developments, given how reliant it is on fossil fuels. This whole debacle is not only heavily connected to all kind of conflcts, it looks like a conflict itself, one fought with and against the resources and economies. Of course, at the current state, Europe is doomed to lose more than gain, given how it's holding together.

 

Russia has the largest oil reserves on earth and refines the second most oil out of any nations. They don't rely on Europe or the United States for Oil.

Russia, like the US, is a major consumer; The difference being, they consume European products. Without Russia's consumption of these products, and without the exporting of Russian Natural gas (The United States has not yet been able to ship even a feasible amount to sustain Europe), oil, iron, coal, and any other raw or processed material you can think of, Europe can not sustain the sanctions. The US will not be able to keep it's promise to sustain them. It's a major logistical issue. Cutting Russia out of economics in Europe is simply impractical. It would take decades to develop a logistical solution.

[Shahenshah]

Kerry has already said if the agreement holds, sanctions will be lifted, I think at this junction, Putin would like to settle this and be done with it. Europe gets a broken Ukraine that their taxpayers will fund with many of the politicians to be extremist nationalists and which will remain a liability for decades to come, State of Ukraine will also have to rebuild Eastern Ukraine torn apart by the war. Russia gets undamaged Crimea in return and enough hot buttons in Ukraine to ensure they dont cross the red line again. 

 

Economically, Russia hurts as long as oil prices are low. But they wont be low forever and Russia isnt in same situation as it was in 80s. Meanwhile, much of the shale industry in west will too get wiped out by the OPEC move. 

 

So all in all, sure Russia gets hurt in the short run, so does Europe, Ukraine is completely screwed, all it's liabilities and headaches  are now Europe's burden instead of Putin, Putin also gets Crimea and it's resources, with intact infrastructure. 

 

Dont pick up the ball if you arent going to play the game. Russia was committed to full deployment of it's troops, Europe/NATO wasnt, Economically, things are tight as they are, an escalation could have led to unpredictable economic situation. So, it was a bad timing by the Americans to get this started. Russia perceived it had more at stake than Europe. Americans were playing cowboys, I suppose Merkel finally stood up and said enough is enough.

[Keepitred]

Kerry has already said if the agreement holds, sanctions will be lifted, I think at this junction, Putin would like to settle this and be done with it. Europe gets a broken Ukraine that their taxpayers will fund with many of the politicians to be extremist nationalists and which will remain a liability for decades to come, State of Ukraine will also have to rebuild Eastern Ukraine torn apart by the war. Russia gets undamaged Crimea in return and enough hot buttons in Ukraine to ensure they dont cross the red line again. 
 
Economically, Russia hurts as long as oil prices are low. But they wont be low forever and Russia isnt in same situation as it was in 80s. Meanwhile, much of the shale industry in west will too get wiped out by the OPEC move. 
 
So all in all, sure Russia gets hurt in the short run, so does Europe, Ukraine is completely screwed, all it's liabilities and headaches  are now Europe's burden instead of Putin, Putin also gets Crimea and it's resources, with intact infrastructure. 
 
Dont pick up the ball if you arent going to play the game. Russia was committed to full deployment of it's troops, Europe/NATO wasnt, Economically, things are tight as they are, an escalation could have led to unpredictable economic situation. So, it was a bad timing by the Americans to get this started. Russia perceived it had more at stake than Europe. Americans were playing cowboys, I suppose Merkel finally stood up and said enough is enough.

Also, When Crimea voted to join Russia, there wasn't really a no option, there we're two 'yes' options:

Join Russia, or
Declare Independence and join Russia later.

[Fox Fire]

https://news.vice.com/article/uk-deployment-of-75-military-advisers-to-ukraine-raises-concerns-over-mission-creep

 

How close can we get to war with Russia?