93 replies to this topic

[Road2Victory]

You know whats hinting back at the new "Cold War" is that the FBI broke a Russian suspected spy ring in NYC. The spy was disguised as a banker for this Russian bank and was ordered to get intel on Wall Street and persuade New Yorkers to keep them updated about the economy. It seems funny how the Russians are trying to avoid deeper sanctions. I get how Putin's trying to protect the Russians but that violated an international right-- the right to remain as a free country.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-breaks-up-a-russian-spy-ring-in-new-york-city/2015/01/26/d3f8cee8-a595-11e4-a2b2-776095f393b2_story.html

[Political Fury]

Russia is out of line legally, what I have said is not just my opinion, but it is also legally unacceptable.

[Road2Victory]

If Russia doesn't stop its aggression we could be involved in a new proxy war which we  already mite have since the Euromadian began. 

[Shahenshah]

You were already involved in proxy war by funding anti Russian politicians by the tune of billions, its just gotten more active.

As for legality, who decides legality? There is no binding UN resolution nor US accepts international criminal Court where it could file a legal case.

Ukrainian constitution was shred to pieces when the previous government was overthrown.

So legality is just a matter of opinion and a point of view.

As for spying, everyone spies, US more than probably anyone else given the scale of NSA leaks.

Edited by Shahenshah, 28 January 2015 - 04:53 AM.

[Road2Victory]

Well what I am saying is that every country has a right to self-determination. The UN charter was founded based on this principle and supported the formation of new countries during its early years. 

 

I know spying everybody does but it feels a repeat of the Cold War fear again. Like with this proxy war in Europe and an unusual, world united position in the Middle East things just get added on top of each other. 

[TheWanderer]

 

Russia has violated a sovereign nation and technically invaded the Ukraine.  The annexation that Russia performed on the crimea region of Ukraine could be likened to Hitler's annexation of Austria in the name of Lebensraum.  Russia's extensive aggression must be countered.  We cannot be a dog that is all bark and no bite.

 

 

I say let the Europeans deal with it, we have spent too much money being the worlds police.

 

Being a European, I would like to see this myself.

[Shahenshah]

Well what I am saying is that every country has a right to self-determination. The UN charter was founded based on this principle and supported the formation of new countries during its early years. 

 

I know spying everybody does but it feels a repeat of the Cold War fear again. Like with this proxy war in Europe and an unusual, world united position in the Middle East things just get added on top of each other. 

 

Well, even Crimea has a right to self-determination and the Eastern Ukraine, they're ethnic Russians mostly there. The first order of the new govt was to delegitimise their mother tongue, you have to note that significant elements of Euromaidan were xenophobes and neo-nazis and they showed thier colors as soon as they could. I understand xenophobia can fly under the radar as long as it is Islamophobic and not anti-semite, but embracing neo-nazis to screw Russia is a new one.

Edited by Shahenshah, 28 January 2015 - 06:02 AM.

[HerrSpore]

Fox news is a Lie factory

[Road2Victory]

 

Well what I am saying is that every country has a right to self-determination. The UN charter was founded based on this principle and supported the formation of new countries during its early years. 

 

I know spying everybody does but it feels a repeat of the Cold War fear again. Like with this proxy war in Europe and an unusual, world united position in the Middle East things just get added on top of each other. 

 

Well, even Crimea has a right to self-determination and the Eastern Ukraine, they're ethnic Russians mostly there. The first order of the new govt was to delegitimise their mother tongue, you have to note that significant elements of Euromaidan were xenophobes and neo-nazis and they showed thier colors as soon as they could.

 

Crimea is not even a country, its a special territory and its part of an independent nation and was given to the Ukrainians as a gift from Gorbachev himself. 

Well their colors were mixed during the Orange revolution it was neither nor red or black and during the Euromadian i would say it was largely influenced by pro-westerners. 

[ccabal86]

Well, even Crimea has a right to self-determination and the Eastern Ukraine, they're ethnic Russians mostly there. The first order of the new govt was to delegitimise their mother tongue, you have to note that significant elements of Euromaidan were xenophobes and neo-nazis and they showed thier colors as soon as they could. I understand xenophobia can fly under the radar as long as it is Islamophobic and not anti-semite, but embracing neo-nazis to screw Russia is a new one.

While the anti-language law was passed by the parliament, it was not signed by the president, and therefore never went into effect.
 
 

Crimea is not even a country, its a special territory and its part of an independent nation and was given to the Ukrainians as a gift from Gorbachev himself. 
Well their colors were mixed during the Orange revolution it was neither nor red or black and during the Euromadian i would say it was largely influenced by pro-westerners.

Khrushchev, not Gorbachev

[Road2Victory]

 

Well, even Crimea has a right to self-determination and the Eastern Ukraine, they're ethnic Russians mostly there. The first order of the new govt was to delegitimise their mother tongue, you have to note that significant elements of Euromaidan were xenophobes and neo-nazis and they showed thier colors as soon as they could. I understand xenophobia can fly under the radar as long as it is Islamophobic and not anti-semite, but embracing neo-nazis to screw Russia is a new one.

While the anti-language law was passed by the parliament, it was not signed by the president, and therefore never went into effect.
 
 

Crimea is not even a country, its a special territory and its part of an independent nation and was given to the Ukrainians as a gift from Gorbachev himself. 
Well their colors were mixed during the Orange revolution it was neither nor red or black and during the Euromadian i would say it was largely influenced by pro-westerners.

Khrushchev, not Gorbachev

 

I forgot I knew it was Khrushchev. 

[DarkFox]

Cold war 2.0, this time with a crappy version of Red Dawn.  

[Shahenshah]

 

Well, even Crimea has a right to self-determination and the Eastern Ukraine, they're ethnic Russians mostly there. The first order of the new govt was to delegitimise their mother tongue, you have to note that significant elements of Euromaidan were xenophobes and neo-nazis and they showed thier colors as soon as they could. I understand xenophobia can fly under the radar as long as it is Islamophobic and not anti-semite, but embracing neo-nazis to screw Russia is a new one.

While the anti-language law was passed by the parliament, it was not signed by the president, and therefore never went into effect.
 
 

Crimea is not even a country, its a special territory and its part of an independent nation and was given to the Ukrainians as a gift from Gorbachev himself. 
Well their colors were mixed during the Orange revolution it was neither nor red or black and during the Euromadian i would say it was largely influenced by pro-westerners.

Khrushchev, not Gorbachev

 

 

An attempt was made to deligitimise the language, the fact it passed the the illigitimate parliament in itself as an appaling fact.

 

 

 

Well what I am saying is that every country has a right to self-determination. The UN charter was founded based on this principle and supported the formation of new countries during its early years. 

 

I know spying everybody does but it feels a repeat of the Cold War fear again. Like with this proxy war in Europe and an unusual, world united position in the Middle East things just get added on top of each other. 

 

Well, even Crimea has a right to self-determination and the Eastern Ukraine, they're ethnic Russians mostly there. The first order of the new govt was to delegitimise their mother tongue, you have to note that significant elements of Euromaidan were xenophobes and neo-nazis and they showed thier colors as soon as they could.

 

Crimea is not even a country, its a special territory and its part of an independent nation and was given to the Ukrainians as a gift from Gorbachev himself. 

Well their colors were mixed during the Orange revolution it was neither nor red or black and during the Euromadian i would say it was largely influenced by pro-westerners. 

 

Different rules for Crimea, different rules for Kosovo? Are we seeing double standards yet again?

 

As for make up of Euromadian, as I said, a significant portion was made up of extremists, however, they had significant inlfuence, that is further corraborated as the extremists gained significant positions in the transitory but illigitimate government. I did not say the movement was made entirely of nutjobs.

Edited by Shahenshah, 28 January 2015 - 07:18 AM.

[Road2Victory]

 

 

Well, even Crimea has a right to self-determination and the Eastern Ukraine, they're ethnic Russians mostly there. The first order of the new govt was to delegitimise their mother tongue, you have to note that significant elements of Euromaidan were xenophobes and neo-nazis and they showed thier colors as soon as they could. I understand xenophobia can fly under the radar as long as it is Islamophobic and not anti-semite, but embracing neo-nazis to screw Russia is a new one.

While the anti-language law was passed by the parliament, it was not signed by the president, and therefore never went into effect.
 
 

Crimea is not even a country, its a special territory and its part of an independent nation and was given to the Ukrainians as a gift from Gorbachev himself. 
Well their colors were mixed during the Orange revolution it was neither nor red or black and during the Euromadian i would say it was largely influenced by pro-westerners.

Khrushchev, not Gorbachev

 

 

 

 

Well what I am saying is that every country has a right to self-determination. The UN charter was founded based on this principle and supported the formation of new countries during its early years. 

 

I know spying everybody does but it feels a repeat of the Cold War fear again. Like with this proxy war in Europe and an unusual, world united position in the Middle East things just get added on top of each other. 

 

Well, even Crimea has a right to self-determination and the Eastern Ukraine, they're ethnic Russians mostly there. The first order of the new govt was to delegitimise their mother tongue, you have to note that significant elements of Euromaidan were xenophobes and neo-nazis and they showed thier colors as soon as they could.

 

Crimea is not even a country, its a special territory and its part of an independent nation and was given to the Ukrainians as a gift from Gorbachev himself. 

Well their colors were mixed during the Orange revolution it was neither nor red or black and during the Euromadian i would say it was largely influenced by pro-westerners. 

 

Different rules for Crimea, different rules for Kosovo? Are we seeing double standards yet again?

 

Hmmm we mite be or Ukraine could end up like Georgia or Finland perhaps. 

[Shahenshah]

Georgia was stupid enough to start the war with Russia on it's own without concrete Western support, unlike Ukaine. How dumb was that. Generous of Putin to leave them alone after he had them by the balls.

 

My friends, the foriegn policies arent based on human rights or morality (You'd be invading Africa or Israel or Burma and bombing Boko Haram if that was the priority) or legality (You would'nt have invaded Iraq if 'International law' was of some concern), they're based purely on self-interests. I'm amazed so many here believe there's more to this and keep attempting to provide legal and moral justifications when a simple and quick digging in contemporary history would provide contradictions and highlight blatant hypocracies and rip those justifications apart.

 

There's only two rules in international affairs...might is right and self-interest. Everything else is a facade.

Edited by Shahenshah, 28 January 2015 - 07:47 AM.

[ccabal86]

Georgia was stupid enough to start the war with Russia on it's own without concrete Western support, unlike Ukaine. How dumb was that. Generous of Putin to leave them alone after he had them by the balls.

Wrong. Georgia attempted to reclaim its OWN territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia from rebels and prevent them from shelling artillery into Georgia, to which Russia responded with an invasion, claiming that ethnic Russians were in danger. Sounds familiar?

As a somewhat unrelated anecdote regarding the just how credible Russia is on well, pretty much anything, I'll leave this here:

The name "Molotov cocktail" was coined by the Finns during the Winter War. The name is an insulting reference to Soviet foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov, who was responsible for the setting of "spheres of interest" in Eastern Europe under the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact in August 1939. The pact with the Nazis bearing Molotov's name was widely mocked by the Finns, as was much of the propaganda Molotov produced to accompany the pact, including his declaration on Soviet state radio that bombing missions over Finland were actually airborne humanitarian food deliveries for their starving neighbours. The Finns sarcastically dubbed the Soviet cluster bombs "Molotov bread baskets" in reference to Molotov's propaganda broadcasts. When the hand-held bottle firebomb was developed to attack Soviet tanks, the Finns called it the "Molotov cocktail", as "a drink to go with the food". Molotov himself despised the name, particularly as the term became ubiquitous and generalised as Soviets faced increasing numbers of cocktail-throwing protesters in the Eastern Bloc in the years after World War II.

[Shahenshah]

 

Georgia was stupid enough to start the war with Russia on it's own without concrete Western support, unlike Ukaine. How dumb was that. Generous of Putin to leave them alone after he had them by the balls.

Wrong. Georgia attempted to reclaim its OWN territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia from rebels and prevent them from shelling artillery into Georgia, to which Russia responded with an invasion, claiming that ethnic Russians were in danger. Sounds familiar?

 

As a somewhat unrelated anecdote regarding the just how credible Russia is on well, pretty much anything, I'll leave this here:

The name "Molotov cocktail" was coined by the Finns during the Winter War. The name is an insulting reference to Soviet foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov, who was responsible for the setting of "spheres of interest" in Eastern Europe under the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact in August 1939. The pact with the Nazis bearing Molotov's name was widely mocked by the Finns, as was much of the propaganda Molotov produced to accompany the pact, including his declaration on Soviet state radio that bombing missions over Finland were actually airborne humanitarian food deliveries for their starving neighbours. The Finns sarcastically dubbed the Soviet cluster bombs "Molotov bread baskets" in reference to Molotov's propaganda broadcasts. When the hand-held bottle firebomb was developed to attack Soviet tanks, the Finns called it the "Molotov cocktail", as "a drink to go with the food". Molotov himself despised the name, particularly as the term became ubiquitous and generalised as Soviets faced increasing numbers of cocktail-throwing protesters in the Eastern Bloc in the years after World War II.

 

No they arent Georgian territories, they're independant, just like Kosovo is. Why are you having hard time applying same standards to yourself that you impose on others? :-)

 

By your logic, we cannot then, recognise the declaration of independance of Georgia itself then.

 

 

 

The then Russian President Vladimir Putin described the recognition by Western powers of Kosovan independence as a "terrible precedent, which will de facto blow apart the whole system of international relations, developed not over decades, but over centuries."^[55] He then went on to say, "they have not thought through the results of what they are doing. At the end of the day it is a two-ended stick and the second end will come back and hit them in the face."^[55]

 

 

The following summarises what I'm trying to say here:

In the United States, in hearings before the House Committee on Foreign Affairs, Congressman Dana Rohrabacher said:^[56]

"Now we can talk until we're blue in the face trying to say there is no analogy here, but it doesn't cover up the obvious analogy between Kosovo and what's going on in Georgia where you have breakaway republics similar to what the Serbs face. Now the only difference is of course, we're Americans and they're Russians. And the people trying to break away there were pro-Russian.
And either we're for democracy — either we're for those people in Kosovo and in Ossetia and elsewhere — and in, I might say, in Georgia and their right to be separate from Russia in the beginning — to begin with — if we lose that, we've lost the high ground. We're already losing our credibility right now, let's not lose the high ground."^[

 

 

-

Russia is about as credible as any other nation state playing the game, least of all USA, still looking for WMDs right?

 

-

 

You arent more moral or righteous than anyone else as far as government FA is concerned, you dont have the moral high ground, nor does anyone else. You do what you do for your self-interest, not for morality, not for human rights, not for democracy, just like how other nations states do what they do, purely for their self-interest. You actually believe the whole spin of morality, democracy, freedom, justice, bla bla bla. You're actually naive enough to believe that, cmon man. The FA policy is full of contradictions and paradoxes on any given day for any number of nation states, certainly this is true for the more powerfull nation states,

 

I'm not singling out just the US, mind you, but pointing out the hypocracy of the whole 'righteous' justifications that start flowing from some friends from there, who feel there is no opposing narrative and we're to take all claims at face value with eyes, ears and minds closed.

 

Your mandate to be world police, comes purely through your hegemonic power, that right is derived from your might. You guys deserve the benefits of that because you guys worked it out better than anyone else. Absolutely no issues there, there is no one else more deserving, else they'd command such power too. But, yea, lot's not confuse that with the morality or legality spin.

 

Might is right mate, embrace is it for what it is. Your leaders do.

 

My argument isnt if Russia or US is right or wrong, but my argument is that all this has nothing to do with what is 'right' or what is 'wrong', what is 'legal' or what is 'illegal', merely, what is 'self-interest'. I can equally write long paragraphs on Putin's duplicities, hell, I can do that for my own country's government too. I'm not here trying to piss in your cereal mate, or that I am against you, just pointing out the holes in the whole 'holier than thou' narrative that keeps popping up.

Edited by Shahenshah, 28 January 2015 - 01:27 PM.

[ccabal86]

You do realize though that I'm not from the US, nor am I a citizen of the US. Nor did I ever claim that US foreign poilicy is either infallible or considers the well-being of other states. I just believe that having a world hegemone like the US is BY FAR better than the other alternatives. Well, a United Europe would be better candidate, but that's not going to happen.

I'll react to the rest later

[Robert2424]

The thought of a United europe I've heard a few times before. It would have to be a Federation of sorts, but I don't see it as impossible. Course I live in the US, and the diversity of Europe I like. (I'm a history nut and find European history fascinating along with its many cultures). Though if it would ever happen, (A united Europe), I'd personally would like the culture to remain intact. Though how I think it would go, and if it were to may be two entirely different things. 

[onbekende]

 

 

Russia has violated a sovereign nation and technically invaded the Ukraine.  The annexation that Russia performed on the crimea region of Ukraine could be likened to Hitler's annexation of Austria in the name of Lebensraum.  Russia's extensive aggression must be countered.  We cannot be a dog that is all bark and no bite.

 

 

I say let the Europeans deal with it, we have spent too much money being the worlds police.

 

 

I do not believe the U.S. should police the world.  However, I believe that the U.S. with her allies should stand up for those who cannot effectively stand up for themselves.  Russia is a socialist nation that is showing aggression.  If the world community continues to back down from Russia, then what deterrent is there for Russia from following an even more aggressive and dangerous path?  The U.S. should lead, not police.

 

calling Russia socialist

 

sorry mate, they aren't

 

Sure they are more social then the US, but that doesn't need much tbh >_>