93 replies to this topic

[JacobZuma]

 

 

To answer your question, the Greek government until very recently has spent 25% of its GDP on social insurance. One quarter of its GDP was spent on pensions, unemployment benefits, insurance etc. That is what the government is spending money on. If you compare this percentage to other nations, even other smaller nations, then it is way out of proportion.

 

 

Had to reply to this as this sounded odd. Greece is at 24% of GDP expences going to "social part", as seen here. It is 12th in that ranking (even Germany is ahead of it with 25.8%). Obvious winner is France, at 31.9% >_>

 

Belgium is 3rd (30.7%), huzzahi

 

 

Yet Greece owes Germany money, not the other way around. And you will see from those stats it dramatically increased after Greece joined the Eurozone and it hasn't gone down since 2012 - even though they're on the brink of defaulting on their loans. That is very irresponsible, they're refusing to put austerity measures in places because they are arrogant and have a sense of false self-importance.

 

The differences between Germany, France and Greece is that the first two countries have huge economies that can support social grants. Greece doesn't have a big economy and cannot sustain 1/4 of their GDP going to social grants and they also don't want to cut back on that, for reasonable reasons - if they cut back on pensions, unemployment grants etc. then their citizens would literally starve to death because more than 50% of their population will have no income, but it's still their own fault for leading to this path.

[Duderonomy]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can someone dumb this down for a clueless American please?

 

 

That is a nice video visualizing a simplistic explanation.

 

This is actually a perfect explanation. It also explains why the current global capitalism, debt based system can only ultimately fail. 

 

*snip*

 

Yes. And that is the whole idea of capitalism. Unfortunately, the entire system relies on someone, somewhere being in debt. Or exploitation. But to add to that, many of the worlds currencies are still pegged to the US dollar, which in turn is quite literally backed by absolutely nothing but faith in the US Federal Reserve. It's this faith the Fed that has propped up economic expansion across the globe since WW2 and made the US dollar the global reserve currency. Only the Euro really competes these days, and given the disaster in Europe, makes that point kinda meaningless if it is indeed the fate of the EU to collapse.

Now the problem with this is the fact that the Fed has been historically terrible at their job, specifically predicting the future, and the US as a whole still can't get it's debt under control and likely won't in the foreseeable future. If things continue the way they are, faith in the Fed will disappear. And what happens then? 

It almost makes me wonder how we've managed make the world go round on nothing but faith for so long. 

You make it a point that debt is not bad, so long as the debt is used to create growth. Which is the problem. It's blind faith in this idea that everything will just keep growing. But in a finite world, that's physically impossible.

 

*snip*

 

This or something similar is definitely within reason for the future. But I question whether we can make it to that point without fucking ourselves first. 

 

Armageddon has been predicted every year for thousands of years. The world is far more resilient than we'd like to believe. And, for that matter, so is Greece. Anybody have a prediction on how long it'll take Greece to right itself?

[onbekende]

 

 

 

To answer your question, the Greek government until very recently has spent 25% of its GDP on social insurance. One quarter of its GDP was spent on pensions, unemployment benefits, insurance etc. That is what the government is spending money on. If you compare this percentage to other nations, even other smaller nations, then it is way out of proportion.

 

 

Had to reply to this as this sounded odd. Greece is at 24% of GDP expences going to "social part", as seen here. It is 12th in that ranking (even Germany is ahead of it with 25.8%). Obvious winner is France, at 31.9% >_>

 

Belgium is 3rd (30.7%), huzzahi

 

 

Yet Greece owes Germany money, not the other way around. And you will see from those stats it dramatically increased after Greece joined the Eurozone and it hasn't gone down since 2012 - even though they're on the brink of defaulting on their loans. That is very irresponsible, they're refusing to put austerity measures in places because they are arrogant and have a sense of false self-importance.

 

The differences between Germany, France and Greece is that the first two countries have huge economies that can support social grants. Greece doesn't have a big economy and cannot sustain 1/4 of their GDP going to social grants and they also don't want to cut back on that, for reasonable reasons - if they cut back on pensions, unemployment grants etc. then their citizens would literally starve to death because more than 50% of their population will have no income, but it's still their own fault for leading to this path.

 

percentage is percentage, its relative and as such claiming greece 24% is worse then germany's 26% is odd. You will also notice ALL the people jumped up the last decades (hello baby boom) and stagnated the last decade (hello recession).

 

austerity isn't the proveberial "tightening the beltbuckle", it is "buying a new pair of pants 10 sizes to small".

 

anyway, the mess is present, the solution will be forthcomming eventually, there will be no winners in this solution, only lesser-losers.

[JacobZuma]

 

 

 

 

To answer your question, the Greek government until very recently has spent 25% of its GDP on social insurance. One quarter of its GDP was spent on pensions, unemployment benefits, insurance etc. That is what the government is spending money on. If you compare this percentage to other nations, even other smaller nations, then it is way out of proportion.

 

 

Had to reply to this as this sounded odd. Greece is at 24% of GDP expences going to "social part", as seen here. It is 12th in that ranking (even Germany is ahead of it with 25.8%). Obvious winner is France, at 31.9% >_>

 

Belgium is 3rd (30.7%), huzzahi

 

 

Yet Greece owes Germany money, not the other way around. And you will see from those stats it dramatically increased after Greece joined the Eurozone and it hasn't gone down since 2012 - even though they're on the brink of defaulting on their loans. That is very irresponsible, they're refusing to put austerity measures in places because they are arrogant and have a sense of false self-importance.

 

The differences between Germany, France and Greece is that the first two countries have huge economies that can support social grants. Greece doesn't have a big economy and cannot sustain 1/4 of their GDP going to social grants and they also don't want to cut back on that, for reasonable reasons - if they cut back on pensions, unemployment grants etc. then their citizens would literally starve to death because more than 50% of their population will have no income, but it's still their own fault for leading to this path.

 

percentage is percentage, its relative and as such claiming greece 24% is worse then germany's 26% is odd

 

 

It isn't odd. The difference is Germany is using its own revenue to fund that 25% social grants. Greece, essentially, is not using its own revenue but is borrowing money to fund their 24%, that's the difference, and even though Greece owes other European countries and the IMF 300 BILLION Euros (and the ECB already defaulted on 50% of the loan amount) the Greek government isn't cutting back on spending - meaning they will have to borrow MORE money because they don't have enough revenue for all of their expenses.

 

I really cannot see how you can even compare Greece to France or Germany. You could have compared Greece to Spain or Ireland, but those 2 countries are cutting back on spending, unlike Greece, trying to resolve the situation.

 

The other big difference is the fact that Germany has a lot more working adults supporting their pensioners and unemployed. There is a specific term used to define this, something along the lines of Population Support Ratio, where Greece doesn't. Greece sits with 27% unemployment and a big percentage that are pensioners, essentially meaning that the few who does work have to support the many that do not, in Germany that's the direct opposite.

 

Claiming that Greece isn't in the wrong for spending 24% on social expenses because Germany is spending 25% is exactly the Greek way of thinking. By your rationale, your country, Belgium, could spend just as much money as Germany does, because why not? Greece is spending more money than it is capable of - hence the situation they're in now. My country, South Africa, cannot spend the same amount of money that the US spends on our military, because we don't have that kind of money. We can't spend $700 bn a year on our armed forces, our entire budget is $200 bn, which means if we wanted to do that we will have to go and borrow the rest - which is what Greece did, and still does. Obviously there is a difference between % of GDP and actual value, but the principle is exactly the same.

[onbekende]

the loans they get are to pay for the loans of old. Strip all, and I mean ALL, loan payments of Greece bankroll and they will just breeze along at like 2% profit. Its the vicious circle of "loan payed by new loan" thats killing them. And the "personal" way to end that is a default, something they are somewhat doing now.

 

It seems you don't yet grasp the idea of percentage and relative. Heck Greece's 24% on social is there because they just cut pensions in half basically. That is the drop from 26% in 2012 to 24% in 24. It might not seem like alot but also know that there GDP itself dropped 25%! Another thing that austerity did, it hastened the "reality check" Greece needed. You don't stop a car on a brick wall, you softly apply the pedal to keep your dog on the backseat from smashing into the windshield.

 

btw, Belgium is spending over 30% of GDP intake on the social branch

[Antonio]

Guys,I read your replies,and I realized that almost everyone said pretty much the same things.So,I thought it would be better to reply/give information to all of you with just one post.I didn't want to reply to every single one of you,because it would take 5 more pages!    So,I'd first like to do a flashback in Greece's ''economic'' history: Greece,a small Mediterranean country,had Drachma as its own currency.It was not a rich country like Germany,France,Belgium,Italy etc. (and I don't think it will ever be,at least not in the near future!    ) but its people lived with dignity and they didn't have many problems.Later,Greece joined the EU,and later the Eurozone.Did it join the Eurozone fairly,however?No,because the Greek politicians actually ''falsified'' deficit numbers.It is also said that they ''hid'' one billion of debt,but this is not related to the coutry's Eurozone entry.In a few words,Greece didn't actually meet the five Eurozone-accession criteria.Anyways,after adopting this new,strong currency,it saw its GDP and its economy,in general,''booming''.For a lot of people,it was quite strange for such a small nation.However (all the trouble starts from this point),just because the Euro was a ''powerful'' currency,the former Greek governments realized,or at least thought that they had countless possibilities.So,they started this ''infrastructure'' frenzy,in order to ''boost'' the economy.They built motorways (Egnatia Odos is the most striking example) and built new railway systems,like the Athens Subway,the (STILL UNDER CONSTRUCTION,FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!) Thessaloniki Subway,the Athens Tram,the Athens Suburban Railway,the new airport in Athens (Eleftherios Venizelos International Airport),the expansion of one of the runways of the Macedonia International Airport of Thessaloniki (again,STILL UNDER CONSTRUCTION,FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!) ,the Thessaloniki Suburban Railway (THANK GOD THIS ONE'S COMPLETE!!!)etc.They did things that benefited the country,indeed,you can't say the opposite.But,HOW THE HECK DID THEY DO/ARE THEY STILL DOING ALL THAT GREAT STUFF??? AND THESE ARE SOOO DAMN EXPENSIVE!!! (they also bought military equipment,but many of it wasn't even RECEIVED,but I think we shouldn't talk about military expenditures,because it's a subject that you don't know a lot about,believe me,I'm saying this as a Greek.The government didn't buy weapons,just because they woke up one day and said ''OK,today and from now on,we'll be buying military equipment!!!) By getting LOANS,of course!!! Everything was being done with borrowed money! And they thought that Greece could pay them off.But,hell NO!!! I think that you all agree that the governments of that era shouldn't have been borrowed sooo much money,but they should have tried to realize at least a few of the above-mentioned projects with their own-country's money.And I tottaly agree with you.Although Greece had gotten enough loans,it kept getting more and more,when it suddenly reached a point where it couldn't pay them off,even with the country's income.So,it started getting new loans in order to pay older ones,until this very spot,where Greece's debt is huge because of these mistakes,and people are suffering because of them!!! I know that the Greek politicians practically didn't know what they were doing,and not just about the above-mentioned,but for everything,including the extremely high pensions,public insurance services etc.!!! I agree with you,guys,and no one says the opposite!!! The Greek governments spent too much money in fields where it wasn't necessary!!! Then,Greece implemented austerity measures (under Papandreou and later Samaras-Venizelos),which completely destroyed the already fragile Greek economy,and its people! And,the high pensions were cut in half (so,no more hign pensions,as many of you argue),expenditures in the fields of education and the health system were reduced DRAMATICALLY (you could say that they don't even spend money any more on these),a lot of employees in the private sector were fired,as well as in the public sector (that was OK,there were too many civil servants!  ).And all these came to add to the fact that Greece as an economy relies only on tourism,merchant shipping and agriculture (which is slowly dying!).As a result,the economy COLLAPSED,and the ''fate'' of Greece was only paying and paying and paying,until it has no more debts.But,this means,that in the meantime the country won't even have a slight chance to improve economically and get out of the crisis (which is both financial and humanitarian).That's what (and now Tsipras time!    ) the Greek PM wants to negotiate.He wants his country to pay its debts,of course,but with different conditions,that will allow Greece to ''take a deep breath''.So,no one's getting angry here about the debts we have to pay,as I saw before.No one said ''we WON'T pay them back''.  And,definitely war IS NOT an option!

Anyways,guys,I said too much.But,we really don't have to quibble over such stuff! Sure everyone has his/her opinions,but if anything,we're all friends and allies! We don't have to destroy our mood!!! 

[Fox Fire]

Guys,I read your replies,and I realized that almost everyone said pretty much the same things.So,I thought it would be better to reply/give information to all of you with just one post.I didn't want to reply to every single one of you,because it would take 5 more pages! So,I'd first like to do a flashback in Greece's ''economic'' history: Greece,a small Mediterranean country,had Drachma as its own currency.It was not a rich country like Germany,France,Belgium,Italy etc. (and I don't think it will ever be,at least not in the near future! ) but its people lived with dignity and they didn't have many problems.Later,Greece joined the EU,and later the Eurozone.Did it join the Eurozone fairly,however?No,because the Greek politicians actually ''falsified'' deficit numbers.It is also said that they ''hid'' one billion of debt,but this is not related to the coutry's Eurozone entry.In a few words,Greece didn't actually meet the five Eurozone-accession criteria.Anyways,after adopting this new,strong currency,it saw its GDP and its economy,in general,''booming''.For a lot of people,it was quite strange for such a small nation.However (all the trouble starts from this point),just because the Euro was a ''powerful'' currency,the former Greek governments realized,or at least thought that they had countless possibilities.So,they started this ''infrastructure'' frenzy,in order to ''boost'' the economy.They built motorways (Egnatia Odos is the most striking example) and built new railway systems,like the Athens Subway,the (STILL UNDER CONSTRUCTION,FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!) Thessaloniki Subway,the Athens Tram,the Athens Suburban Railway,the new airport in Athens (Eleftherios Venizelos International Airport),the expansion of one of the runways of the Macedonia International Airport of Thessaloniki (again,STILL UNDER CONSTRUCTION,FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!) ,the Thessaloniki Suburban Railway (THANK GOD THIS ONE'S COMPLETE!!!)etc.They did things that benefited the country,indeed,you can't say the opposite.But,HOW THE HECK DID THEY DO/ARE THEY STILL DOING ALL THAT GREAT STUFF??? AND THESE ARE SOOO DAMN EXPENSIVE!!! (they also bought military equipment,but many of it wasn't even RECEIVED,but I think we shouldn't talk about military expenditures,because it's a subject that you don't know a lot about,believe me,I'm saying this as a Greek.The government didn't buy weapons,just because they woke up one day and said ''OK,today and from now on,we'll be buying military equipment!!!) By getting LOANS,of course!!! Everything was being done with borrowed money! And they thought that Greece could pay them off.But,hell NO!!! I think that you all agree that the governments of that era shouldn't have been borrowed sooo much money,but they should have tried to realize at least a few of the above-mentioned projects with their own-country's money.And I tottaly agree with you.Although Greece had gotten enough loans,it kept getting more and more,when it suddenly reached a point where it couldn't pay them off,even with the country's income.So,it started getting new loans in order to pay older ones,until this very spot,where Greece's debt is huge because of these mistakes,and people are suffering because of them!!! I know that the Greek politicians practically didn't know what they were doing,and not just about the above-mentioned,but for everything,including the extremely high pensions,public insurance services etc.!!! I agree with you,guys,and no one says the opposite!!! The Greek governments spent too much money in fields where it wasn't necessary!!! Then,Greece implemented austerity measures (under Papandreou and later Samaras-Venizelos),which completely destroyed the already fragile Greek economy,and its people! And,the high pensions were cut in half (so,no more hign pensions,as many of you argue),expenditures in the fields of education and the health system were reduced DRAMATICALLY (you could say that they don't even spend money any more on these),a lot of employees in the private sector were fired,as well as in the public sector (that was OK,there were too many civil servants! ).And all these came to add to the fact that Greece as an economy relies only on tourism,merchant shipping and agriculture (which is slowly dying!).As a result,the economy COLLAPSED,and the ''fate'' of Greece was only paying and paying and paying,until it has no more debts.But,this means,that in the meantime the country won't even have a slight chance to improve economically and get out of the crisis (which is both financial and humanitarian).That's what (and now Tsipras time! ) the Greek PM wants to negotiate.He wants his country to pay its debts,of course,but with different conditions,that will allow Greece to ''take a deep breath''.So,no one's getting angry here about the debts we have to pay,as I saw before.No one said ''we WON'T pay them back''.  And,definitely war IS NOT an option! 

Anyways,guys,I said too much.But,we really don't have to quibble over such stuff! Sure everyone has his/her opinions,but if anything,we're all friends and allies! We don't have to destroy our mood!!!  

1. Paragraphs! Please use paragraphs. Reading that hurt my eyes. 

2. The government of Greece effectively ran out of money in 1974*, long before the Euro. So what did they do? They decided to expand the public sector without the money to back it, falling even deeper and deeper into debt and using borrowed money to do it.

3. Greece is, as a percentage of GDP, the second-biggest defense spender in all of NATO. Surpassed only by the US. (Like WTF?)

4. Regardless of their blatant and out of control spending/borrowing, Greece is not the only one to blame here. All of Europe shares blame in this situation for not addressing the issue sooner. Nobody even cared until the global recession in 08, when everyone realized that wealth actually doesn't just fall from trees.

5. I have no ill will towards Greece or any EU nation for this. In fact, I want this situation to evolve into an even more united Europe. A United States of Europe. Even though that's highly unlikely, I've always loved that idea. Europe could easily be the world power and surpass the US in such an event. But so far, Europe just seems to be slipping more into division.

 

*Edit

[Finster Baby]

So sounds like the rest of Europe is saying accept by Sunday or get tossed from the Eurozone.

 

What's the likelihood that'll actually happen?

[Fox Fire]

So sounds like the rest of Europe is saying accept by Sunday or get tossed from the Eurozone.

 

What's the likelihood that'll actually happen?

According to Greek opinion...... Absolutely zero. The Greeks apparently would rather reject austerity in favor of default austerity. Either way, you get the same exact outcome, only with the latter, Greece looses the Eurozone and probably even more jobs than the former.

Like TheRebel said, democracy at work. For better or worse, the Greeks are making their own choices. Sadly, I really think they made the wrong choice on this one.

[ccabal86]

Ah, yes, the zero sum game. That can be a rational belief, but I don't hold to it. There's still a lot of efficiency to be wrung out of the ol' world yet. First will be a revolution in automated transportation. Then renewables. Then lab-grown food. Finally, upload to the interwebz and log out of the real world. After that, growth will be intellectual resources, rather than physical. And all will consume far less energy than we consume now.
 
We've already seen a revolution in entertainment. Experiences that you had to get at inefficient paintball ranges and laser tag venues are now a download away. The electricity used by games is far less than the energy required to maintain old forms of entertainment. You could never imagine a free bowling alley or golf course, but I can have an unlimited simulation of both at home for some electricity and an internet connection. $1 for a mobile game can give more engagement than $12 at a movie theatre. I don't even bother going to theatres anymore unless it's with someone else.
 
When parcels no longer require a meatbag to escort them from Point A to Point B, you'll see a lot of grocery and retail stores shut their doors. At the same time, the middleman and transport costs of products (which can make for half of the retail price) will drop drastically. Restaurants, cafes, and bars will do better, since people will still need places to congregate and their grocery costs will drop.

I completely agree. What we will have to figure out, is what to do with all the unemployed people that lose their jobs to efficiency and automation. Yes, the new technologies create new jobs, but not as many as you lose, and not everyone will have the flexibility to adapt.

[Lysistrata]

I agree with everything on Foxy's list, including paragraph's and use of a space bar. If Europe could actually make a US of E work, it would balance the world power structure quite nicely. The U.S.A. can actually cut back on defense spending and share power with our European allies. I really like the idea.

[Fox Fire]

Ya know, it isn't until tonight that I realized how seriously depressing this situation really is.... I mean, we've all been aware of the Europe problem for a while but I don't live there, and it wasn't until tonight that I put some serious thought into this issue.... Although I've been convinced the west is slowly falling to the east for a while now, I don't think I ever really thought about what an eastern dominated world would look like until now. It's depressing. If the EU falls, it's going to have a massive impact on the whole world, but the western world in particular. 

In the mean time, the runner ups like China and Russia are gaining more influence, so they wouldn't feel the effects like we would. While China is building a new World Bank under their own influence, the western world is loosing influence and the faith of our own allies. The absolute worst part of this is that the EU, ATM, looks like it will surely collapse. 

 

I hate being the preacher of doom and gloom. I try to look at things optimistically, but I also have a knack for specifically identifying flaws. Perhaps that's just because I also just enjoy challenging my own intellect by trying to find solutions to problems. But there are several serious issues in the world ATM that I find nearly impossible to be optimistic about. This is one of them.

 

As they say, "United We Stand, Divided We Fall." That phrase is understatedly true. 

 

IDK about you all, but an eastern dominated world sounds like a shit hole of demanded conformity. And it also sounds like that's what the future holds.

 

Please Europe, fix this. Whatever it takes, just fix this. 

[Shahenshah]

Yea I don't the whole defense spending thing, not like Turks gonna ever invade and Cyprus conflict is pretty much frozen as it is.

[JacobZuma]

 

 While China is building a new World Bank under their own influence, the western world is loosing influence and the faith of our own allies.

 

 

Not only that, but we're also busy with the New Development Bank under BRICS. It will give a lot of African countries access to finance that they were never able to get in previous years. The majority of it will be funded by China in the future as most other BRICS countries just don't have the finances to do that, but eventually other countries will join in, after all the whole idea is development. There is also talks of Nigeria to join BRICS, and other countries such as Mexico. I think it's fair to say that the US and Europe is completely losing its grip on developing nations and under the influence of Russia and China, these nations collectively will have a big influence on change.

[Shahenshah]

The big European economies are already in on the BRICS.

[JacobZuma]

The big European economies are already in on the BRICS.

 

Germany is showing interest in joining but has not signed a MOU as of yet, neither has any other European country, so unless you're hinting at just conspiracy theories, then no.

[Antonio]

1. Paragraphs! Please use paragraphs. Reading that hurt my eyes.

 

Too late...   But,it was good,wasn't it???    And your emoticon with the torches was DAMN GOOD!!!  Where did you find it???

 

 

2. The government of Greece effectively ran out of money in 1974*, long before the Euro. So what did they do? They decided to expand the public sector without the money to back it, falling even deeper and deeper into debt and using borrowed money to do it.

 

I agree.Look,since like ever Greece was in trouble with it's economics,but the BIG trouble started right after the accession of the country in the Eurozone.I mean,it was like a bubble that was growing and growing until this very spot,where it blew off and we're fucked up (sorry about that!  )

 

 

3. Greece is, as a percentage of GDP, the second-biggest defense spender in all of NATO. Surpassed only by the US. (Like WTF?)

 

Like I said,there's a reason why Greece spends,indeed,so much on its military.Please,don't make me elaborate on that,because I might offend someone and no one in here (at least I think so) will actually understand my point! The only thing I can say is,that without military spending,even with minimum military spending,Greece is not safe...

 

 

4. Regardless of their blatant and out of control spending/borrowing, Greece is not the only one to blame here. All of Europe shares blame in this situation for not addressing the issue sooner. Nobody even cared until the global recession in 08, when everyone realized that wealth actually doesn't just fall from trees.

 

Sure,both sides are responsible for the current situation.Both sides with their decisions and moves contributed,more or less,to the current situation not only in Greece,but in the entire Europe.But,the former Greek governments are to blame more for this economic mess in my country.

 

 

5. I have no ill will towards Greece or any EU nation for this. In fact, I want this situation to evolve into an even more united Europe. A United States of Europe. Even though that's highly unlikely, I've always loved that idea. Europe could easily be the world power and surpass the US in such an event. But so far, Europe just seems to be slipping more into division.

 

Ahh,don't worry,I know you don't have any ill will towards Greece or any other European country!!!  But,some comments just weren't that friendly (no offense!!!  ),so I wanted to remind everyone that we're all friends and allies here,and there's no need for anger.  Everyone wants this situation to actually foster bonds between the countries for a more united Europe,and let's hope that the current conflict between European countries will cease and they'll rebuild their relations based on mutual trust and solidarity!

Edited by Antonio, 08 July 2015 - 11:14 AM.

[Antonio]

Yea I don't the whole defense spending thing, not like Turks gonna ever invade and Cyprus conflict is pretty much frozen as it is.

Like I said,Greece can't be safe if it doesn't spend money on its defense.I know no one of you guys can understand this,you find it foolish.But,please believe me,it's not.You really have to come and live in Greece in order to understand what's really happenning here,and of course understand the Greco-Turkish relations (which are,sadly,poor).

As for the Cyprus issue,I think that it will take a lot of years until it's resolved!

[Duderonomy]

I agree with the goals you listed, Antonio, but I have a different view on anger than you do. Anger, when justified, motivates change. While it should not be manifested violently, it's an indicator that something, somewhere in your brain is not happy with the status quo. So anger means you need to try to shakeup what is happening around you, by either expressing it or acting to change it. Greece has elicited anger because its behavior matters, both to Europe and the U.S. "The opposite of love is not hate; it's indifference." If this were a S. American or African country, it would not create the controversy that Greece has.

It's sad that Greeks will suffer privation, but they have given no indicator that they want to become a productive member of the euro. You cannot expect someone to invest in a country with no plan to grow. I believe Greece can contribute a lot to Europe, but they need to do so through industry, not through constant panhandling. Sometimes, the best thing a country can get is a kick in the pants to get moving. The world is a harsh place and products come from work, not magical thinking.

[onbekende]

So sounds like the rest of Europe is saying accept by Sunday or get tossed from the Eurozone.

 

What's the likelihood that'll actually happen?

It will more be a simple default and restructuring, doubt they would throw them out (doubt anyone even knows how to do that beyond the proverbial "throw Mr Tsipras on the curve")

 

 

I agree with everything on Foxy's list, including paragraph's and use of a space bar. If Europe could actually make a US of E work, it would balance the world power structure quite nicely. The U.S.A. can actually cut back on defense spending and share power with our European allies. I really like the idea.

fat chance thats gonna happen, we enjoy you guys being the cavalry