93 replies to this topic

[Shahenshah]

 

 

Theo, I did mean Greek state being a bad customer, the private banks knew who they were lending money. What you say essentialy is the same thing I said, tax payers money being used to repay the loans of private banks and now it's the tax payers money that's stuck. By robbery I mean, robbery by the big private banks. They got their money, now its the taxpayers and their money that's in the middle of nowhere.

We are not saying the same thing Shah ... You are talking about robbery, I'm not.
Nobody, but nobody forced Greece to borrow. Incidentally, nobody forced Greece to falsify and tweak their accounts either.
 

And that's the deal between State of Greece and "Private" Banks, The stakeholders and the management of private banks should be held accountable for the poor due diligence just like the Greek state is being held accountable, but what you've had here is the liability of private banks shifted to public entities. The burden has shifted, from private banks to public treasuries. 
 
Nobody forced the private bankers to lend, nobody. Nobody, nobody stopped the banks from doing their due diligence, financial window dressing of Greece's numbers have been open secret for decades. 
 

 
Shah, that makes zero sense. I'm not saying that the private banks that bought the bonds are sine culpa, but how exactly should they have done due diligence to the extent you are saying they should, if the records were so corrupted that the at the end (i.e. 2012 when the rescue was needed) not even the Greek government at the time didn't know how much it actually owed and to who ...
 
The burden was not shifted, the debt was taken and owed primarily by the Greek State on its bonds ... therefore it was and is the responsibility of the state to replay its debt.
 
Indeed nobody forced the banks to lend, but what does that prove? When one takes a lone, one also agrees to the terms of the contract based on which the loan is given. Repayment is one part of such an agreement as are the conditions on the "cost" of the loan, i.e. interest. On accepting the terms of the loan agreement, the borrower is then obligated to honor them. Unfortunately for Greece, it didn't use the loans in manner that would allow it to repay them, nor could it get recourse from a backstop (since the State is such a backstop for private banks Re financial stability of the system, etc etc).
 
Where is the alleged robbery in that?

You took my money, paid it to banks, then said now Greece owes me money, that the is robbery.

The burden on the Greek end did not shift, but the burden on the creditors end shifted from private banks to taxpayers.

I'm not arguing the Greek state mismanaged this, offcourse they did, I'm not also arguing they should not pay back the money, they should.

What I'm arguing is that banks, which have significant responsibility in how this crises was created had their debts secured by public money and now public sits hoping for Greece to payback that money, which given current deal is never going to happen.

[Theophilos]

 

You took my money, paid it to banks, then said now Greece owes me money, that the is robbery.

The burden on the Greek end did not shift, but the burden on the creditors end shifted from private banks to taxpayers.

I'm not arguing the Greek state mismanaged this, offcourse they did, I'm not also arguing they should not pay back the money, they should.

What I'm arguing is that banks, which have significant responsibility in how this crises was created had their debts secured by public money and now public sits hoping for Greece to payback that money, which given current deal is never going to happen.

 

 

No, Greece was always the one owing money.

 

Burden on the Greek end of course shifted, the "big bad" banks (to paraphrase you) took a 52% haircut on their bond holdings, i.e. the Greek debt declined (face value) by roughly 107 billion euro ...

[JacobZuma]

 

 

 

 

Theo, I did mean Greek state being a bad customer, the private banks knew who they were lending money. What you say essentialy is the same thing I said, tax payers money being used to repay the loans of private banks and now it's the tax payers money that's stuck. By robbery I mean, robbery by the big private banks. They got their money, now its the taxpayers and their money that's in the middle of nowhere.

We are not saying the same thing Shah ... You are talking about robbery, I'm not.
Nobody, but nobody forced Greece to borrow. Incidentally, nobody forced Greece to falsify and tweak their accounts either.
 
 

And that's the deal between State of Greece and "Private" Banks, The stakeholders and the management of private banks should be held accountable for the poor due diligence just like the Greek state is being held accountable, but what you've had here is the liability of private banks shifted to public entities. The burden has shifted, from private banks to public treasuries. 
 
Nobody forced the private bankers to lend, nobody. Nobody, nobody stopped the banks from doing their due diligence, financial window dressing of Greece's numbers have been open secret for decades. 
 
 

 
Shah, that makes zero sense. I'm not saying that the private banks that bought the bonds are sine culpa, but how exactly should they have done due diligence to the extent you are saying they should, if the records were so corrupted that the at the end (i.e. 2012 when the rescue was needed) not even the Greek government at the time didn't know how much it actually owed and to who ...
 
The burden was not shifted, the debt was taken and owed primarily by the Greek State on its bonds ... therefore it was and is the responsibility of the state to replay its debt.
 
Indeed nobody forced the banks to lend, but what does that prove? When one takes a lone, one also agrees to the terms of the contract based on which the loan is given. Repayment is one part of such an agreement as are the conditions on the "cost" of the loan, i.e. interest. On accepting the terms of the loan agreement, the borrower is then obligated to honor them. Unfortunately for Greece, it didn't use the loans in manner that would allow it to repay them, nor could it get recourse from a backstop (since the State is such a backstop for private banks Re financial stability of the system, etc etc).
 
Where is the alleged robbery in that?

What I'm arguing is that banks, which have significant responsibility in how this crises was created had their debts secured by public money and now public sits hoping for Greece to payback that money, which given current deal is never going to happen.

 

 

 

Your whole approach is wrong. You're shifting the blame onto private banks - who work under the supervision of the central bank/reserve bank (aka the government of Greece). No private bank goes alone in their policies - it's always directed by the government. Interest rates, how much they can loan out etc. is all controlled by the government. If you're given an opportunity to make 10 times more money than what you have, would you say no? Private banks go crazy because governments allow them to - like in the US. When governments cut the interest rates to what, 1%? banks have the opportunity to make loads of money.

[Shahenshah]

 

 

 

 

 

Theo, I did mean Greek state being a bad customer, the private banks knew who they were lending money. What you say essentialy is the same thing I said, tax payers money being used to repay the loans of private banks and now it's the tax payers money that's stuck. By robbery I mean, robbery by the big private banks. They got their money, now its the taxpayers and their money that's in the middle of nowhere.

We are not saying the same thing Shah ... You are talking about robbery, I'm not.
Nobody, but nobody forced Greece to borrow. Incidentally, nobody forced Greece to falsify and tweak their accounts either.
 
 

And that's the deal between State of Greece and "Private" Banks, The stakeholders and the management of private banks should be held accountable for the poor due diligence just like the Greek state is being held accountable, but what you've had here is the liability of private banks shifted to public entities. The burden has shifted, from private banks to public treasuries. 
 
Nobody forced the private bankers to lend, nobody. Nobody, nobody stopped the banks from doing their due diligence, financial window dressing of Greece's numbers have been open secret for decades. 
 
 

 
Shah, that makes zero sense. I'm not saying that the private banks that bought the bonds are sine culpa, but how exactly should they have done due diligence to the extent you are saying they should, if the records were so corrupted that the at the end (i.e. 2012 when the rescue was needed) not even the Greek government at the time didn't know how much it actually owed and to who ...
 
The burden was not shifted, the debt was taken and owed primarily by the Greek State on its bonds ... therefore it was and is the responsibility of the state to replay its debt.
 
Indeed nobody forced the banks to lend, but what does that prove? When one takes a lone, one also agrees to the terms of the contract based on which the loan is given. Repayment is one part of such an agreement as are the conditions on the "cost" of the loan, i.e. interest. On accepting the terms of the loan agreement, the borrower is then obligated to honor them. Unfortunately for Greece, it didn't use the loans in manner that would allow it to repay them, nor could it get recourse from a backstop (since the State is such a backstop for private banks Re financial stability of the system, etc etc).
 
Where is the alleged robbery in that?

What I'm arguing is that banks, which have significant responsibility in how this crises was created had their debts secured by public money and now public sits hoping for Greece to payback that money, which given current deal is never going to happen.

 

 

 

Your whole approach is wrong. You're shifting the blame onto private banks - who work under the supervision of the central bank/reserve bank (aka the government of Greece). No private bank goes alone in their policies - it's always directed by the government. Interest rates, how much they can loan out etc. is all controlled by the government. If you're given an opportunity to make 10 times more money than what you have, would you say no? Private banks go crazy because governments allow them to - like in the US. When governments cut the interest rates to what, 1%? banks have the opportunity to make loads of money.

 

 

"Supervision"? You're serious? 

 

I dont see how you or Theo have answered the question that the burden has been shifted from private banks to tax payers of the Creditors, NOT Greece, I'm not talking about Greece, whatever they owe, they owe, they ought to owe it to the private banks, but now, the burden has been shifted from private banks to the taxpayers of Germany and other countries.  

[Theophilos]

Answered, see post #82.

[Shahenshah]

Answered, see post #82.

no

[Theophilos]

Shah, yes. You first claimed there was no debt relief, now that you see there was you are looking for something else ... I undersatnd you dont like it, or agre with it, but the facts are not going to change because of that alone.

[Shahenshah]

Shah, yes. You first claimed there was no debt relief, now that you see there was you are looking for something else ... I undersatnd you dont like it, or agre with it, but the facts are not going to change because of that alone.

I maintain that Greek people didn't really see any relief. The debt relief was to the banks, taxpayers money used to relief the banks and the burden of debt transferred from people who did it purely for profits, they did it for profits, not charity, you make money or you make losses. Banks made poor business decisions, purely out of greed, then they made losses, their losses were cut and taxpayers bailed them out.

 

It's like I do a bad investment, it's very high risk, I know the person im investing is lying to me, but hey, look at the possible upsides! so why not!  but oh shit, the guy screwed up and cant pay me back, no problem, I'll goto govt ask them to cut my losses and transfer the rest of by 'bad debt' to the taxpayers. Lucky me! 

[ccabal86]

Relevant to the topic

 

[onbekende]

Verhofstadt!

[Theophilos]

 

Shah, yes. You first claimed there was no debt relief, now that you see there was you are looking for something else ... I undersatnd you dont like it, or agre with it, but the facts are not going to change because of that alone.

I maintain that Greek people didn't really see any relief. The debt relief was to the banks, taxpayers money used to relief the banks and the burden of debt transferred from people who did it purely for profits, they did it for profits, not charity, you make money or you make losses. Banks made poor business decisions, purely out of greed, then they made losses, their losses were cut and taxpayers bailed them out.

 

It's like I do a bad investment, it's very high risk, I know the person im investing is lying to me, but hey, look at the possible upsides! so why not!  but oh shit, the guy screwed up and cant pay me back, no problem, I'll goto govt ask them to cut my losses and transfer the rest of by 'bad debt' to the taxpayers. Lucky me! 

 

 

Except where they did ... over 100 billion of it in fact >.>

Verhofstadt!

 

[onbekende]

yesyes, I know, he is one of "ours", like it that he is there?

[Shahenshah]

Shah, yes. You first claimed there was no debt relief, now that you see there was you are looking for something else ... I undersatnd you dont like it, or agre with it, but the facts are not going to change because of that alone.

I maintain that Greek people didn't really see any relief. The debt relief was to the banks, taxpayers money used to relief the banks and the burden of debt transferred from people who did it purely for profits, they did it for profits, not charity, you make money or you make losses. Banks made poor business decisions, purely out of greed, then they made losses, their losses were cut and taxpayers bailed them out.

It's like I do a bad investment, it's very high risk, I know the person im investing is lying to me, but hey, look at the possible upsides! so why not! but oh shit, the guy screwed up and cant pay me back, no problem, I'll goto govt ask them to cut my losses and transfer the rest of by 'bad debt' to the taxpayers. Lucky me!

Except where they did ... over 100 billion of it in fact >.>

Verhofstadt!

Shah, yes. You first claimed there was no debt relief, now that you see there was you are looking for something else ... I undersatnd you dont like it, or agre with it, but the facts are not going to change because of that alone.

I maintain that Greek people didn't really see any relief. The debt relief was to the banks, taxpayers money used to relief the banks and the burden of debt transferred from people who did it purely for profits, they did it for profits, not charity, you make money or you make losses. Banks made poor business decisions, purely out of greed, then they made losses, their losses were cut and taxpayers bailed them out.

It's like I do a bad investment, it's very high risk, I know the person im investing is lying to me, but hey, look at the possible upsides! so why not! but oh shit, the guy screwed up and cant pay me back, no problem, I'll goto govt ask them to cut my losses and transfer the rest of by 'bad debt' to the taxpayers. Lucky me!

Except where they did ... over 100 billion of it in fact >.>

Verhofstadt!

Shah, yes. You first claimed there was no debt relief, now that you see there was you are looking for something else ... I undersatnd you dont like it, or agre with it, but the facts are not going to change because of that alone.

I maintain that Greek people didn't really see any relief. The debt relief was to the banks, taxpayers money used to relief the banks and the burden of debt transferred from people who did it purely for profits, they did it for profits, not charity, you make money or you make losses. Banks made poor business decisions, purely out of greed, then they made losses, their losses were cut and taxpayers bailed them out.

It's like I do a bad investment, it's very high risk, I know the person im investing is lying to me, but hey, look at the possible upsides! so why not! but oh shit, the guy screwed up and cant pay me back, no problem, I'll goto govt ask them to cut my losses and transfer the rest of by 'bad debt' to the taxpayers. Lucky me!

Except where they did ... over 100 billion of it in fact >.>

Verhofstadt!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P84tN0z4jqM

That's the risk private banks took, not the taxpayers.

The private banks have every right to move the relevant courts if illegal actions were in play by Greek stare, similarly, all the banks have full rights to stop lending to Greek state. Let them default, they mismanaged the whole thing.

How many Greek officials have been put behind bars for these blunders? They ought to be held accountable by thier people instead of voting on false hopes of easy money.

Now you have money of other people at stake, who had no say in the deals between private banks and the state of Greece.

Edited by Shahenshah, 29 July 2015 - 08:56 AM.

[Duderonomy]

Here's the best way to help Greece pay off their debts. Finally, a program that helps the locals earn money.

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-29/how-to-help-the-greek-economy-by-drinking