70 replies to this topic

[ccabal86]

Speaking of walls, Israel isn't a real rolemodel, last time I checked that "effective communication tactic with thick-skulled people" leads to daily rockets flying back and forth. Very effective indeed...

Despite the odds, Israel still exists which is alone a testament to their doing something right. Fun thought experiment: picture any European country and place it in a geopolitical environment that Israel faces. How long do you think they'd have before they're invaded and killed off to the last child?
 
 

I suppose Nazi occupation of Poland was fine by you and those who fought back for liberation were thick skulled people?

That ridiculous concept is the 1947 UN plan to "resolve" the territorial dispute. It screams "Functioning State" doesn't it? Despite that, the Jewish delegation accepted the plan, but the Arabs declared war a day after. Yepp, that's exactly what happened between Nazi Germany and Poland...
 
 

Isn't the meaning of secular the right to practice whatever religion one wants?

No, it means that state laws and societal values come before religious dogma.

Edited by ccabal86, 06 January 2016 - 08:03 PM.

[onbekende]

Let me be clear once again: Even though I often give Islam in particular a lot of flak, my main issue is not with this specific religion, at least I don't dislike it significantly more more than other religions. The main issue with the migrants isn't that they're Muslims, but rather that most of them are:

1, Uneducated
2, Deeply religious

This in itself is an explosive combination, quite literally. Integrating people that have these two traits into secular European societies is a pipe dream at best. It's like trying to teach someone the difference between a salad and dinner fork when the person in question even has trouble understanding why it is considered rude to take a fat shit on the dinner table.

1. Most are actually fairly well educated, atleast the younger generations coming over. They have the means (at home, not here) to make the journey.

2. I would rather state them to be deeply rooted in their particulary social standards. Which is indeed something that needs to be adressed but not forced out of them.

 

That said, I haven't yet seen cavemen among the asylum seekers, I must be blind.

 

Isn't the meaning of secular the right to practice whatever religion one wants?

Secular means that religion doesn't influence the state. Not saying it wouldn't do via the society, but its just saying the pope doesn't run the joint

 

 

Speaking of walls, Israel isn't a real rolemodel, last time I checked that "effective communication tactic with thick-skulled people" leads to daily rockets flying back and forth. Very effective indeed...

Despite the odds, Israel still exists which is alone a testament to their doing something right. Fun thought experiment: picture any European country and place it in a geopolitical environment that Israel faces. How long do you think they'd have before they're invaded and killed off to the last child?
 

Israel excists largly because the west support them in basically any squabble they get themselfs into, most are own-made squabbles.

 

Any European nation would survive, and probably aswell morf into what Israel is today, why wouldn't it? Society adapts, sadly mostly it adapts to fits its own needs and forgets the bigger picture (aka neighbours).

 

You seem to think there are million raving lunatics waiting to scalp all the jews in Israel. While many may hold that opinion, when push comes to shove most just want to life their lifes. As happens with most things, mankinds attentionspan is notorious short, even when dealing something close at home.

[ccabal86]

1. Most are actually fairly well educated, atleast the younger generations coming over. They have the means (at home, not here) to make the journey.

Intereseting, because last I heard, according to German employers only 1 or 2% of the migrants are immediately employable, while about 30% of them are illiterate. Granted, it's an older statistic from about October 2015..

2. I would rather state them to be deeply rooted in their particulary social standards. Which is indeed something that needs to be adressed but not forced out of them.

Religion has a predominant role in ME societies, and therefore it also has a big pert in setting the standards
 
 

Isn't the meaning of secular the right to practice whatever religion one wants?

Secular means that religion doesn't influence the state. Not saying it wouldn't do via the society, but its just saying the pope doesn't run the joint
 

Any European nation would survive, and probably aswell morf into what Israel is today, why wouldn't it? Society adapts, sadly mostly it adapts to fits its own needs and forgets the bigger picture (aka neighbours).

Yes society adapts to fit its own needs, but Israel conducts itself the way it does PRECISELY BECAUSE of its neighbors. That's the opposite of not seeing the bigger picture I would argue.

Edited by ccabal86, 06 January 2016 - 08:53 PM.

[onbekende]

 

1. Most are actually fairly well educated, atleast the younger generations coming over. They have the means (at home, not here) to make the journey.

Intereseting, because last I heard, according to German employers only 1 or 2% of the migrants are immediately employable, while about 30% of them are illiterate. Granted, it's an older statistic from about October 2015..

2. I would rather state them to be deeply rooted in their particulary social standards. Which is indeed something that needs to be adressed but not forced out of them.

Religion has a predominant role in ME societies, and therefore it also has a big pert in setting the standards

 

.
Well the elder generation is indeed not very "usefull" in terms of employment, both by lack of education, lack of in-depth education (the 'would you want a nigerian doctor' line) but formost lack of language.

 

Religion is predominant thruw their society, but in europe the so closed-off village mentality slips and peer pressure does elevate so that many slack in being deeply religious. The society norms stay, and the ones that clash with ours should indeed be adressed, but for purely religious standpoint most are moderate to religious-by-occation (aka wedding, funeral, ... but not 24/7).
.
 

 

Any European nation would survive, and probably aswell morf into what Israel is today, why wouldn't it? Society adapts, sadly mostly it adapts to fits its own needs and forgets the bigger picture (aka neighbours).

Yes society adapts to fit its own needs, but Israel conducts itself the way it does PRECISELY BECAUSE of its neighbors. That's the opposite of not seeing the bigger picture I would argue.

 

.

Israel and their neighbours affect eachother, for over 50y now. Its past the point of "who started this mess" and I hope getting to "who will take the first step".

 

By your logic certain neighbourhoods in major city's with an above average population demographic of 1 nationality/religion/... should be excused for being rowdy and its the city at large fault for they needing to be rowdy.

 

Israel became what it is today as an evolution, the same way the entire middle east evolved into strongly disliking Israel thruw time.

[ccabal86]

Israel and their neighbours affect eachother, for over 50y now. Its past the point of "who started this mess" and I hope getting to "who will take the first step".

I would be the happiest person alive if the everyone there suddenly jumped on the "can't we all just get along" wagon, but forgive me if I remain sceptical. I belive the Iran nuclear deal for example is a step in the right direction, but I also understand the Israelis for doubting Iran's good intentions

By your logic certain neighbourhoods in major city's with an above average population demographic of 1 nationality/religion/... should be excused for being rowdy and its the city at large fault for they needing to be rowdy.

I think that's a bad analogy, because unlike countries, districts are not sovereign entities and they need to observe the rule of the land, whether the residents like it or not
 

Israel became what it is today as an evolution, the same way the entire middle east evolved into strongly disliking Israel thruw time.

Yes, and I'm not disputing that the Israelis made some bad decisions along the way. But they DID learn some valuable lessons, such as the how safety must always remain a strong consideration, even if some people take offense because of that.

[onbekende]

 

Israel and their neighbours affect eachother, for over 50y now. Its past the point of "who started this mess" and I hope getting to "who will take the first step".

I would be the happiest person alive if the everyone there suddenly jumped on the "can't we all just get along" wagon, but forgive me if I remain sceptical. I belive the Iran nuclear deal for example is a step in the right direction, but I also understand the Israelis for doubting Iran's good intentions

 

.
Be sceptical all you like, I am aswell.
.

 

By your logic certain neighbourhoods in major city's with an above average population demographic of 1 nationality/religion/... should be excused for being rowdy and its the city at large fault for they needing to be rowdy.

I think that's a bad analogy, because unlike countries, districts are not sovereign entities and they need to observe the rule of the land, whether the residents like it or not

 

 .
Well I do apologize, Israel was a country before this started.

 

no wait...
.

 

Israel became what it is today as an evolution, the same way the entire middle east evolved into strongly disliking Israel thruw time.

Yes, and I'm not disputing that the Israelis made some bad decisions along the way. But they DID learn some valuable lessons, such as the how safety must always remain a strong consideration, even if some people take offense because of that.

 

.

bad thing is that the people who take the most offense (mostly cause they also get the brunt of the "valuable lessons in safety") are the ones not really living in Israel itself, depending on which map you draw from offcourse.

[Shahenshah]

Speaking of walls, Israel isn't a real rolemodel, last time I checked that "effective communication tactic with thick-skulled people" leads to daily rockets flying back and forth. Very effective indeed...

Despite the odds, Israel still exists which is alone a testament to their doing something right. Fun thought experiment: picture any European country and place it in a geopolitical environment that Israel faces. How long do you think they'd have before they're invaded and killed off to the last child?

I suppose Nazi occupation of Poland was fine by you and those who fought back for liberation were thick skulled people?

That ridiculous concept is the 1947 UN plan to "resolve" the territorial dispute. It screams "Functioning State" doesn't it? Despite that, the Jewish delegation accepted the plan, but the Arabs declared war a day after. Yepp, that's exactly what happened between Nazi Germany and Poland...

Isn't the meaning of secular the right to practice whatever religion one wants?

No, it means that state laws and societal values come before religious dogma.

Yea I wouldn't be happy either if an immigrant minority comes in, takes over through force and someone kicks me out and draws border and saying deal with it, without involving me, wait, arent you pissed about far minor concerns relative to that about immigrants? Lol. Fact you think terrorising millions on daily basis, killing them just Cuz, arresting kids under martial law, killing thousands and putting them under aparthied is ok shows your blatant disregard and bias against Muslims. Muslim societies have been under far worst tragedy and atrocities by western intervention than anything vice versa, its not even comparable. Name one non Muslim country under occupation by a Muslim nation state to the scale of Palestine. Name one Muslim country that has brought in the same level of destructoon upon Iraq on a non muslim state, nothing is even near. You act pretend and cry about actions that are objectively, in terms of pure numbers and scale (human tragedy and loss is although not measurable) are not even comparable to what has been inflicted upon Muslim societies. I do not condone any attack or act of terrorism but you seem absolutely ok if terror is inflicted upon Muslim societies.

Fact is you don't even recognise it, you think that not only it is OK, but its something commendable, that just shows your indifference.

My friend, the levels of tragedy arent even comparable.

Also, Israel was already aggressing outside its declared borders before the arab forces responded. Oh and Israelis owned only 6% of the land legally at the time of declaration, they were a minority of 30% granted 56% of the land, what you think your response would be? Given your current reactions to immigrants, and of the view that you should take in 0, your position clearly shows a blatant subjective bias.

For a few years now, all arab states have offered Israel FULL normalisation and recognition if Israel withdraws from land it occupies illegally as per international law.

ONE intervention which would really be supported would be knocking out DAESH.

Do you note ccabal, I don't criticise western intervention in Afghanistan that often? ( I do criticise selecting Karzai, who was a nut case from get go, tho, the world saw that to full extwnt towards the end of his reign) but I don't disagree with casus belli. You kill 2000 civilians and than hide the guy, you get bombed by the guy who lost those 2k civies, fair and square.

Edited by Shahenshah, 07 January 2016 - 04:29 PM.

[ccabal86]

Let me just say that I'm not very fond of the idea of Zionism, and think it was an outright terrible decision by Zionists to pick that particular area as their home

 

For starters, Mandatory Palestine was not a sovereign country, when post WW2 Jewish settlers started moving in. It was under British rule, and the original grievances came form mismanagement of that initial crisis by the Brits. Therefore the Palestinians had no bigger claim to the land at the time of the 1947 UN resolution than the Jews, they just wanted a bigger piece of the pie that was up for grabs. Would it be time to move on? Yes, but after this many wars, it's understandable that they won't give up strategically important areas like the Golan Heights just because those that they've been fighting since of 1947 to this day, gave their "honest word" not to take advantage of it.

 

I'm also very supportive of LEGAL immigration, and believe it is in the best interest of every country to import new citizens that:

 

1, Contribute to economic prosperity

2, Are willing to peacefully co-exist with the domestic population

3, Are willing to acknowledge and respect the rule of the land

 

Those that do not fit all of the above categories are unwelcome. 2 and 3 are a no-brainer, but I say 1 should be too. The world is full of shit places, but that doesn't entitle people who live there to suckle the hard-financed welfare systems of others that have it a bit better off. If they want a better life, then they should start contributing and fast, otherwise they can just up and go back where the they came from.

 

I agree with you on ISIS and that the failure of nation-building in Iraq and Afghanistan is on the West. BUT I distinctly remember your criticizing the US when they killed Bin Laden in Pakistan, which kind of goes against what you said in your last paragraph.

[ccabal86]

This is what happens when you unconditionally let scum into your country:

http://www.thelocal.de/20160104/refugees-blamed-for-mass-sexual-assault-in-cologne

This is only going to get worse though, so brace yourselves Europeans!

*awaits the people being identified as 3rd generation lowlifes*

Or quite the contrary: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35280386

But let's not get pessimistic here, they're already drinking alcohol, so the first step towards integration is a roaring success!

Edited by ccabal86, 11 January 2016 - 03:34 PM.

[onbekende]

 

 

This is what happens when you unconditionally let scum into your country:

http://www.thelocal.de/20160104/refugees-blamed-for-mass-sexual-assault-in-cologne

This is only going to get worse though, so brace yourselves Europeans!

*awaits the people being identified as 3rd generation lowlifes*

 

Or quite the contrary: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35280386

But let's not get pessimistic here, they're already drinking alcohol, so the first step towards integration is a roaring success!

 

well thusfar they rounded up a couple who aren't 3rd generation, perhaps the instigators even themselfes. Still doubtfull they did everything, still think mob mentality kicked in, aided by the alcohol offcourse. As doubtfull as all 1k young males massing on the square being just of arabic descent.

 

yeah I did laugh at the boozing, got to start somewhere no?

[Shahenshah]

Let me just say that I'm not very fond of the idea of Zionism, and think it was an outright terrible decision by Zionists to pick that particular area as their home

 

For starters, Mandatory Palestine was not a sovereign country, when post WW2 Jewish settlers started moving in. It was under British rule, and the original grievances came form mismanagement of that initial crisis by the Brits. Therefore the Palestinians had no bigger claim to the land at the time of the 1947 UN resolution than the Jews, they just wanted a bigger piece of the pie that was up for grabs. Would it be time to move on? Yes, but after this many wars, it's understandable that they won't give up strategically important areas like the Golan Heights just because those that they've been fighting since of 1947 to this day, gave their "honest word" not to take advantage of it.

 

I'm also very supportive of LEGAL immigration, and believe it is in the best interest of every country to import new citizens that:

 

1, Contribute to economic prosperity

2, Are willing to peacefully co-exist with the domestic population

3, Are willing to acknowledge and respect the rule of the land

 

Those that do not fit all of the above categories are unwelcome. 2 and 3 are a no-brainer, but I say 1 should be too. The world is full of shit places, but that doesn't entitle people who live there to suckle the hard-financed welfare systems of others that have it a bit better off. If they want a better life, then they should start contributing and fast, otherwise they can just up and go back where the they came from.

 

I agree with you on ISIS and that the failure of nation-building in Iraq and Afghanistan is on the West. BUT I distinctly remember your criticizing the US when they killed Bin Laden in Pakistan, which kind of goes against what you said in your last paragraph.

 

1. What occurred as a matter of fact is 30% minority grabbed >50% of the pie, rest is speculative/opinion/could've/should've/whatifs. 

2. Totally agreed on the immigration part.

3. I was very happy OBL was killed, I was unhappy about how the action was portrayed, later on, we know it was supposedely a collaborative effort until that helicopter had mechanical failure and the PR side of things went kaput. 

 

Eitherway, I'm a happy camper, after Taliban massacre at school in Peshawar, the military and civilian leaders got there shit together to a large extent, things are ALOT better then they were 2 or 3 years ago, constitution was changed, law enforcement was given more control, now the idiots get picked up and locked up in jails, trialed by millitary courts and judges who dont sell out or get scared by the rotten, corrupt and scared civil judicial system. Intelligence gets even a whiff one has a soft corner for these assholes, you're on the radar, and if you do something silly, you get locked up, that's how you deal with this shit. Perhaps Pakistan is the only Islamic country that has managed to drive back the onslaught of extremism in last 3-4 years where other Islamic majority states with this problem are reeling off the attacks. I really do hope military brings this to a logical conclusion. 

 

I myself have some connections to millitary (family, history, relatives so on and so forth), I can tell you these hardcore nuts are really hardcore, in freezing temperatures, these guys would bath themselves with ice and walk and hike for miles to evade infrared on UAVs, previously there were predators, now Pakistan's building it's own armed versions licensed from China. Previously these guys would sit on hills and wait for army convoys to come in via roads and ambush them, now army drops the commandos on hill tops and snipe their asses while they look at the bait convoys. Shit's being brought together, past mistakes being corrected and we should not rest until they're all given the martyrdom they so desperately seek. That's how you deal with this shit. When taliban took over Swat, they'd hang people in public squares, when army took it back, you'd see their bodies of terrorists dumped in public squares been eaten away by dogs. When they'd kidnap soldiers, chop their heads and play football, their comrades would be picked up and thrown off from the helicopters on the same locations where they were playing soccer. When they wouldnt talk, you'd put up a barbed wire up their anus and twist it and they'd vomit everything. We tried talking to them, we tried reasoning with them, there is no reasoning or talking left, they only understand one language. That's why I feel protests on bombing Daesh in some areas in Europe was v. silly. 

 

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=zarb%20e%20azb

Edited by Shahenshah, 14 January 2016 - 11:17 AM.