They didn't just wake up one day with a plan to attack America, no you pissed them off first and then they woke up with a plan.
When did they get pissed off? When we supported Israel? When we taught them how to get oil out of the ground and sell it on the open market? When we kicked Hussein out of Kuwait? or do they just blame us because they can't form their own governments with leaders they can follow without killing everyone around them? The region is utter chaos and they are a miserable people that can't govern themselves, therefore they must be contained or annihilated.
You say you live in a neutral country... then be neutral, and stop calling my country assholes. If you can do better you should step up and kick in. It's really easy to do nothing and complain about any outcome.
Kicked Hussein out of Kuwait, after telling him that any conflict between Kuwait and Iraq is not American concern, green lighting your ally Saddam to go invade after arming him for 2 decades, turning a blind eye, supplying and even supporting his chemical attacks.
You weren't going to keep in charge of anything, troops or no troops. Nobody likes occupation by invaders, be it but job terroristd or a level headed person with an iota of self respect, integrity and dignity.
Case in point: Afghanistan. You're now negotiating with Taliban, you are urging all the players to negotiate, you have reached this conclusion after trillions down the toil
my real point is that really you earned more terrorist attacks on US soil.
Yes I understand now. We were supposed to remain content with the amount of terrorist attacks we were getting.
Oh, I'm absolutely positive that Bush would have followed through with his plan and pulled out just like Obama did, when Obama did. Bush wasn't very bright. The fact he invaded Iraq to begin with requires a level of incompetence that's off the charts.
I'm absolutely positive that we would still be there... with targets on our foreheads. Iran would not have a deal, and ISIS would not exist. Assad would be gone. I'm entitled as well to my own version of positive, but we'll never know for sure because Democrats had to have their turn.
I really don't think so. I mean, the pull out plan was indeed Bush's plan and we're talking about a guy who couldn't strategize to save his life. He wasn't able to predict the power vacuum or the civil unrest that would follow, while people who knew something about Iraq were screaming it the whole time. ISIS would also still exist. Maybe not as powerful, but the separate groups that created ISIS were around long before Obama took office. The same exact group already existed before we withdrew. The only reason they are now an army and a functioning state is because of the Arab spring in Syria and the fact that AQI were already heavily embedded in Syria as a safe zone just across the border from Iraq. That's why constant fire fights and attacks always happened in the east. The soldiers who fled the west side of Iraq were actually used to constant attacks and firefights. Only on that day, the attack was considerably larger, lasted over 24 hours with numerous car bombs, and by the next morning, all the commanding officers had fled.
And that's how ISIS took 1/3 of Iraq in a day. Because they were able to gain power, organization, consolidation, recruits, weapons, and everything else they needed being embedded in Syria and working with Al-Nusra. Not because there were no American troops there. Before that, the Iraqi army was holding them off on a daily basis just fine.
As for Iran, I'm pretty sure Bush would never go for an Iran with nuclear capability. But IMO, IDC whether Iran has nukes or not. I'm not stupid enough to think that nuclear technology can actually be contained. If a nation wants nukes, they're going to build them and not give two fucks what anyone else says. Pakistan, India and Israel are fine examples. Pakistan with nukes is honestly more terrifying to me than Iran with nukes. Iran is not nearly as aggressive and evil as the west makes it sound. No more evil or aggressive than Israel or the United States. Like all nations, it's not Irans job to please other nations. Only their own.
If Pakistan didn't have nukes, We'd end up like Libya, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, bunch of nations in Latin America, the list goes on.
Those who are addicted with military muscle only understand the language if military muscle.
Don't worry about our nukes, they're much safer then say some nations having them in Europe, research on recent whistle blowing events in that space. Don't mind the propaganda from so called lobby funded research institutes, after its the same guys who pushed you into Iraqi quagmire. ;-)
As for the rest, Lys continues to live an alternate reality, but at least he doesn't pretend that there is some sort of moralistic angle to all the invasions, its about conquest and keeping them down so you remain up even tho they can't really touch you but yea, why even let them off, 30 years latwr they may challenge you for regional power..so cut them down now, that he's gotten right. At least he isn't naive enough to believe all the democracy, freedom, human rights bs etc.
Well I only say Pakistan is frightening because of the vast anti-American sentiments that come form there. Though I'll be honest. It's hard to tell how much of that is directed at America out of wahhabism and how much is directed at us for the simple fact that Pakistans government has been completely bought off by the US. Maybe it;s a bit of both. I've talked to a few Pakistanis though, and I'll admit, I have yet to actually meet one who fits this type of profile. I've only met maybe 3 people (supposedly) from Pakistan (online). They all seem fairly tolerant, but I still see anti American protests are quite frequent there.
Lys reminds me of pretty much the vast majority of people in my state. I disagree with his views, but he has his moments where he shows compassion and really means it. His concerns I feel are very legit, though we have differing opinions on how to address them. I'm actually quite used to his type. Which is why I spend so much time on the web, debating and the like. There's practically no liberals where I live unless they're gay.
Fair enough, you might get that picture, I admit there are problems, but anti Americanism stems from the following:
1. Soviet war: US funded with ISI and CIA schools the vast majority of madressahs and religious extremism to kick out Soviets, after the war, USA disappeared, leaving Pakistan to deal with a neighbouring country in ruins, its various extremist factions and millions of refugees, then soon afterwards, sanctions were imposed on Pakistan, Pakistan has paid for F-16s which it never received until when they were obselete, we were paid some fucking vegetables for that money. So the generation before mine has that very well in its mind.
2. Pakistan, thankfully, does not have wahabism problem it has problem of armed and trained extremists who were nurtured to fight Soviets and later left alone with Pakistan to deal with and then sanctioned Pakistan for decades for a nuclear program which started as a response after India had weaponised its programme. Main sunni sects in Pakistan are deobandi, barelvi and sufis. The extremists in Pakistan actually dislike the ISIL doctrine and Taliban are actually fighting them as they try to encroach.
3. Current war on terror, Pakistan suffered over 60 bn in economic damages, got peanuts in return. Bushs plan was stupid with no boots on the ground, allowing many fighters to cross over into fiercly independent tribal lands, that even govt until recently had little or no control. It's defacto open border because Pasthun families live across, they don't give a shit if some Brit officer drew a line and made a border. US kept asking Pakistan to do more for nothing, asked us to man the border while nobody was seen on their side of the broder, our defense budget at the time was what 4 bn, vs 500+ bn of US. So give me a break. Pakistan has suffered more civilians and soldier casualties in war on terror than all of NATO and Sept 11 combined. What we got in return was more threats, and the inevitability that eventually US public is going to get tired, not finish the job and get out, which is happening, so we hedged our bets accordingly, they say we talk to or sometimes harbour extremists, tho they have no problem doing the same in Syria, anyway, US seems to have listened somewhat, and now supports dialogue with Taliban.
4. All the idiots that were trained against Soviets and all the madressahs etc, they are the ones that are the trouble makers. They hate anything that does not conform to their extremist views, be it Americans, or Pakistanis, the vast majority. These religious outfits have little or no mass support, sure they can gather some numbers and take out the rally, but just look at the make up of Parliament in Pakistan, they're a minority and even the ones that have seats aren't doing the armed fighting, but mostly rhetoric. Pakistanis don't dislike Americans as people or vast majority of the policies, tho, they do remember vividly the betrayel after the soviet conflict and the general interventionist policies in the region.
5. West has provided assylum to gangsters and those viewed terrorists by vast majority of Pakistan. So Pakistanis don't like the fact that double standards are applied to them so openly.
All in all, we are a democratic country, the parties that will win election are centrist or left leaning seculars. The army when it takes over tends to be again moderate with exception of Zia Ul Haq, who frankly did it to stick it to Soviets with Americans in bed during Afgan invasion. That guy isn't well liked, every time an extremist blows himself, people are quick to remember Zia Ul Haq, bff and the puppet of Americans :-)
6. Hell, actually Wed have preferred trade deals than aid money, most of the aid money that was received ws actually against the expenses incurred by Army for operation, our budgets don't allow us to be in cobtienous fight. The economic aid generally went thru the NGOs, and you know, much of it doesn't reach the people actually.
7. -Install anti Pak government in Afghanistan, then tell us to play nice with them, :-) told you Karzai was an idiot, hope those trillion dollars were well invested.
After the Peshawar massacre, thankfully everybody woke up and we've fucked the terrorists real bad, but hey, no surprise, US again dragging its feet on support, which ones again, highlights the point that no matter what we do, US isn't going to be happy, and they'd rather see us keep fighting and keep the region in flames, from Libya to Pakistan, burn them all down. :-), now, thankfully. Unlike those countries, we actually have a professional standing army that can deal with trouble makers at home and we got a good nuclear deterrant in case someone from outside thinks they'd want to bomb us. What we need to do is now work on ICBMs, we have achieved the technological threshold, I guess, when the political timings are more suitable or someone is saber rattling too much, Wed test one.
At the end of the day, if you are weak, you'll get owned no matter the reasons which are generally bs. We need to keep improving our nuclear deterrent. ICBMs and the sub launched vehicles, so we have a triad of ground air and sea launch capability and second strike capability.
Sure, we are absolutely no match for US, but a nuke risky intervention is too much for any one :-) we can't fight US nor we want to fight US, a war with US is stupidity. Just want them to understand that we won't jump blindly when you say jump :-). I guess that's the root of the problem. Sure, well take your money but only work till where the interests are aligned, after that, sorry bro.
Every time Pakistan has involved itself with US, we got the short end of the stick, there's a saying in Pakistan, the friendship and enmity with US is equally dangerous :-) so yea, lets keep it civil, no need to get chummy or start a brawl. All in all, there are underlying common interests, the interests that are real, anti Pakistan or anti American rhetoric is rhetoric, that can go up and down depending on how things are playing out with those common interests.
Edited by Shahenshah, 06 September 2015 - 06:36 AM.
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