So, it seems there's been multiple Islamist terror attacks in Paris, in at least 6 locations, it's all over the news.

 

Maybe it's fucking time to end the tiptoeing and steamroll ISIS into the ground?

Hi Ice... It took you a while to type all that out... makes me wonder what your investment is. You believe we have an immigration problem, that we have a moral obligation, and signed documents, that say we must allow refugees into our countries.

 

I have a few questions just to get an idea of how your brain works...

 

So how many people have to die before you call it a terrorist problem?

When does our moral obligation become a suicide pact?

When do we take their death threats seriously and understand that they have declared war on us all?

Bernie Sanders said last night that terrorism is caused by "climate change"... Do you agree?

Can you say... "Radical Islam"?

 

I don't know where you live... from our conversations, I'll take a guess at the UK. Please refresh my memory... how many German refugees did England take care of during WW2? We put our Japanese in camps, over 100,000 of them. We do what we must during a time of war, and this is war.

http://www.aph.gov.au/~/media/05%20About%20Parliament/54%20Parliamentary%20Depts/544%20Parliamentary%20Library/Research%20Papers/2014-15/AsylumFacts-4.gif?la=en

Just to put the benevolence in context.

Last time Nationalists ran Europe, there was holocaust. While not all supporters of Nationalists are neo Nazis but pretty much all of neo Nazis would be gladly voting for Nationalists or parties that would form a right wing nationalist coalition government. I won't be surprised if this all ends up with another holocaust.

It was Liberalism that defeated conservatism and brought Europe out of dark ages, it was Liberalism that defeated communism, fascism and nationalism. Today, Liberalism is under attack from conservatism in America, Nationalism in Europe and Extremism in Middle East, offcourse, the degree to which they affect us negatively varies, with extremism as the biggest threat by far. The ugly evil rises again, in different forms, it promotes us vs them, white vs black, xenophobia and war.


Also, Once again, we are discussing how to take care of the effect: Refugees, but not the solution to the root of the problem: Global Proxy war in Syria.

Edited November 15, 201510 yr by Shahenshah

The problem with that chart is that it ends with 2013.

The problem with that chart is that it ends with 2013.

http://healthkenya.co.ke/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/major-refugee-hosting-nations.png

 

 

 

The problem is that we're discussing an effect: Refugee crises and not the cause: Global proxy war in Syria for various interests. 

Edited November 15, 201510 yr by Shahenshah

Hi Shah!... I don't understand the context of these refugee charts. Are you saying that bringing in refugees is a great thing to do? If so... please take them all, we don't want them. You obviously have no idea what being a conservative is. Do you know what the Nazi's were? They were the National Socialist German Workers Party. Not much in common there. Are you calling me a racist? Try something original. I don't want terrorists to enter the USA... and I don't care if you think I'm a racist, it just makes you misguided.

 

The problem with that chart is that it ends with 2013.

 

http://healthkenya.co.ke/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/major-refugee-hosting-nations.png

 

 

 

The problem is that we're discussing an effect: Refugee crises and not the cause: Global proxy war in Syria for various interests. 

I think we're basically in agreement, the number 1 priority would be to end the anarchy in the ME and NA. Now our dear leaders should just get off their asses and do it.

 

 

We put our Japanese in camps, over 100,000 of them.

 

I think we all will agree that it was the darkest moment in USA's human rights history.

 

 

Now our dear leaders should just get off their asses and do it.

 

No no no. Haven't you guys learned anything after 2 wars. Violence will only lead to a cluster fuck of more violence in the mid-east. That's just how it is. That's just how its been for centuries. They love to fight, even on the most trivial of matters. They love their tribal heritage and their guns.

 

The thing to do is educate them in the liberal ways of European styled diplomacy post-WW2. Europe has multiple nations and different religions. Same as mid-east but they understand that bloodshed is bad cuz there are more intellectuals there. We need to educate mid-east and eliminate their centuries old tribal heritage and customs so they can progress and forget their blood-lust that has been going on for centuries!!!

 

Now our dear leaders should just get off their asses and do it.

 

No no no. Haven't you guys learned anything after 2 wars. Violence will only lead to a cluster fuck of more violence in the mid-east. That's just how it is. That's just how its been for centuries. They love to fight, even on the most trivial of matters. They love their tribal heritage and their guns.

 

The thing to do is educate them in the liberal ways of European styled diplomacy post-WW2. Europe has multiple nations and different religions. Same as mid-east but they understand that bloodshed is bad cuz there are more intellectuals there. We need to educate mid-east and eliminate their centuries old tribal heritage and customs so they can progress and forget their blood-lust that has been going on for centuries!!!

 

There is no negotiating with ISIS, or "educating" them. They're following an apocalyptic ideology where they believe the end is near and Islam must take over the world. They specifically reject western education and ideology. Everything their ideology is based on, is the rejection of western culture in favor of fundamentalist Islam. This is a huge idea in the middle east.

WW2 wasn't ended with education and ISIS doesn't have any demands. Endless war for the foreseeable future, anyone? 

I wasn't talking about ISIS. I was referring to the common folk of mid-east. That's the way they are cuz of their customs.

 

The thing is that we can destroy ISIS. But the vacuum will be filled by another terror group. After excising the tumor, you have to still give chemo or radio to kill the remaining cells that cannot be surgically removed. ISIS replaced AQAP in Iraq and Syria so it won't be long b4 another Jihadi jingoist group picks up arms against the west.

 

We need to defeat the ignorance and illiteracy in the region and provide stability and a European model of democracy there.

We shall need to bring Belgian Democracy to all, endless gridlock of political inactivity o/

It is indeed ISIS who did this. Why don't the rest of Europe stop carrying about immigrants and just leave them? I see it very ironic that the number of refugees that Europe offer vs the number that America takes in. Only America had like 26-27 people killed by extremists in the past 7 years since 9/11. Europe is such ignorant of their immigration policies.

 

Well the US is in a different more isolated part of the world, you can't really compare it.

I wasn't talking about ISIS. I was referring to the common folk of mid-east. That's the way they are cuz of their customs.

 

The thing is that we can destroy ISIS. But the vacuum will be filled by another terror group. After excising the tumor, you have to still give chemo or radio to kill the remaining cells that cannot be surgically removed. ISIS replaced AQAP in Iraq and Syria so it won't be long b4 another Jihadi jingoist group picks up arms against the west.

 

We need to defeat the ignorance and illiteracy in the region and provide stability and a European model of democracy there.

Agreed, but for that to happen, there needs to be order first, the situation needs to be stabilized. The biggest problem with the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns is that there were no contingency plans for nation building following them. How to do that successfully, I don't know, but I suspect it would take a good 30-40 year commitment at least. Hence why a neocolonialist approach might just be the solution.

It's not the people, it's the religion that makes them bat-shit crazy mass murderers. They don't want to fix it, they don't want our help to fix it, so we really have no choice. We will not do nothing while they move in and execute our people. We can always drill through the glass to get the oil, so no loss there. I saw Obama and Putin talking today at G20... I wonder what they are coming up with?

It's not the people, it's the religion that makes them bat-shit crazy mass murderers. They don't want to fix it, they don't want our help to fix it, so we really have no choice. We will not do nothing while they move in and execute our people. We can always drill through the glass to get the oil, so no loss there. I saw Obama and Putin talking today at G20... I wonder what they are coming up with?

I'm inclined to agree that the religion itself is the biggest problem. Don't get me wrong, it's not just Islam. All 3 Abrahamic religions build upon the story of much revered Abraham, who was willing to sacrifice his son at the command of God. This story sets the premise that human life (even the lives of loved ones) are secondary to the will of God. What the will of God is, is naturally open to interpretation.

 

If you claim to be a believer of an Abrahamic religion, but still think human life comes before the will of God, then I'm sorry (or rather happy) to say that your faith isn't very strong. The true believers of unshakable faith are the guys in ISIS today or the Crusaders of days gone by.

Looks like France hit Raqqa... that didn't take long... what are the odds that France would lead this fight?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/france-drops-20-bombs-islamic-6838318

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/11/15/french-jets-target-isis-in-raqqa/?intcmp=hpbt1

Edited November 16, 201510 yr by Lysistrata

Exactly what I was saying ccbal. That after wiping out ISIS, the forces need to stay in an active role and help the govt. w/ setting up a proper democratic order.

I wasn't talking about ISIS. I was referring to the common folk of mid-east. That's the way they are cuz of their customs.

 

The thing is that we can destroy ISIS. But the vacuum will be filled by another terror group. After excising the tumor, you have to still give chemo or radio to kill the remaining cells that cannot be surgically removed. ISIS replaced AQAP in Iraq and Syria so it won't be long b4 another Jihadi jingoist group picks up arms against the west.

 

We need to defeat the ignorance and illiteracy in the region and provide stability and a European model of democracy there.

But it's that kind of thing that brings rise to Salafism/Wahhabism. 

It's not as simple as educating people when a huge swath of Sunni ideology is based on rejecting western influence. 

People like ISIS are not illiterate or stupid. They simply believe in Salafism and follow it strictly. ISIS are not the only people with this ideology. Virtually every person in Saudi Arabia is a Salafist and can agree with their ideology if not sympathize with it. We would have to forcibly re-educate entire nations who's people have grown up under strict interpretations of the Quran as law.

Looks like France hit Raqqa... that didn't take long... what are the odds that France would lead this fight?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/france-drops-20-bombs-islamic-6838318

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/11/15/french-jets-target-isis-in-raqqa/?intcmp=hpbt1

Not impressive. We've been bombing the shit out of them for years. This type of response is quite honestly pathetic. If we're going to wage war, we might as well do it right.

 

 

It's not as simple as educating people when a huge swath of Sunni ideology is based on rejecting western influence. 

 

But I'm a Sunni and I turned out fine.

 

That's just what Arabia has made world think. There are countless ppl in KSA that would throw away their monarchy to get democracy and modernization. The Arab media notoriously blacks out the protests that take place daily in the country against monarchy. 

 

An educated person has earned his place in life and will not squander away his education for a chance at 72 virgins...............Which is still a very strong issue as to who will the virgins be?? It could be those World of Warcraft players or COD players as well who never leave their basements.

Yes this post will seem like I am singling you out, perhaps some reasoning is behind it thou?

Hi Shah!... I don't understand the context of these refugee charts. Are you saying that bringing in refugees is a great thing to do? If so... please take them all, we don't want them. You obviously have no idea what being a conservative is. Do you know what the Nazi's were? They were the National Socialist German Workers Party. Not much in common there. Are you calling me a racist? Try something original. I don't want terrorists to enter the USA... and I don't care if you think I'm a racist, it just makes you misguided.

.
a) USA has lost most meaning of all the political spectrum terms along the way, or rather it has found new meanings for each. A conservative is someone who likes the present, who wants status-quo. But with that status-quo also comes the value's being asserted in the present time. You might be surprised but the conservatives (who honour the name) in the EU actually are pro-immigration and pro-intervention. Offcourse sprinkled with the nuances of there respective nations. If you are such a conservative worthy of the term, where is your "american spirit" gone to? Only you and your chosen few? Seems very nazistic of me, which brings me to.

b) Nazi's were narcissists of the highest order, only found in times of dictatorships spanning our earth's history. They were the vile that rears it head whenever the thinking of the masses gets pulled down the gutter by the few who feel they are beraved off all their rightfull gains and wish to blame any who can be blamed with ease.

c) We got what, a handfull of terrorists out of millions? When are you guys going to close all the schools in the US? There are some schoolgo-ers that which to terrorize the rest, clearly you should demonize all the children for being terrorists!

 

You aren't a rascist in the term used in most dictionary's, heck nearly all who get that label aren't it. What you are is a libertarian, a narcisist, a person using the biological and moral feelings of family and stamping it on just yourself and the select few you deem "worthy". You don't just feel the need to berate people of "wrong thoughts" (something everyone does, I do it here), but you feel the need to condemn them aswell. To diminish there excistance on the sole thought of "me speaks truth".

 

The EU made itself into a multicultural place because the moment 1 culture feels the need to surpress another, all hell breaks lose. Are we more enlightend then the Middle East? Perhaps yes as a society, but definatly not as individuals. Both realms have there virtues, both realms have there vices, both realms are currently inhabiting this world and denying that truth is belitteling your own belief that God created this world for all.
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It's not the people, it's the religion that makes them bat-shit crazy mass murderers. They don't want to fix it, they don't want our help to fix it, so we really have no choice. We will not do nothing while they move in and execute our people. We can always drill through the glass to get the oil, so no loss there. I saw Obama and Putin talking today at G20... I wonder what they are coming up with?

.
Its the culture, of which religion is a part. You'd have the same reaction to 18th century USA. Society everywhere doesn't follow a the same linear path. Nor does the whole of society follow the same path guiding the society itself. Yes you got "bat-shit crazy" people in the Middle East. Last I checked we got those everywhere.
.

Looks like France hit Raqqa... that didn't take long... what are the odds that France would lead this fight?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/france-drops-20-bombs-islamic-6838318
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/11/15/french-jets-target-isis-in-raqqa/?intcmp=hpbt1

.
Right, like they have been doing for some time now...

Hi Betsy... Being a conservative can be reduced down to one simple statement... Do not do anything that you are not capable of taking full responsibility for. It goes for just about anything you can think of. This is what I fight liberals over all the time. They love to make what they feel is a problem, a problem for everyone.

 

Plainly speaking my opinions is what I do a lot of here. Please do not think I am stating that other people are not entitled to their own... but if you are making a personal false judgment about me, or somehow saying that I am not entitled to my own opinion because you hate conservatives... I will call you out on that.

"Do not do anything that you are not capable of taking full responsibility for"

 

That is not conservatism, that is morality.

 

This doesn't mean your conservatism doesn't convey said line, this is my a) about current value's.

If that is your definition of conservative, then liberals are extremely immoral. That works for me too.

liberals are the "american dream" people. Atleast in the europe thats what they are. Again, definitions aren't the same everywhere.

It's not the people, it's the religion that makes them bat-shit crazy mass murderers. They don't want to fix it, they don't want our help to fix it, so we really have no choice. We will not do nothing while they move in and execute our people. We can always drill through the glass to get the oil, so no loss there. I saw Obama and Putin talking today at G20... I wonder what they are coming up with?

Your "help" most of the time has been going to extremist millitias to topple regimes who end up kicking out moderates and slashing their throats or it goes to brutal dictators or corrupt rubber stamp politicians. That's the summary of your last few interventions.

It's not the people, it's the religion that makes them bat-shit crazy mass murderers. They don't want to fix it, they don't want our help to fix it, so we really have no choice. We will not do nothing while they move in and execute our people. We can always drill through the glass to get the oil, so no loss there. I saw Obama and Putin talking today at G20... I wonder what they are coming up with?

Your "help" most of the time has been going to extremist millitias to topple regimes who end up kicking out moderates and slashing their throats or it goes to brutal dictators or corrupt rubber stamp politicians. That's the summary of your last few interventions.

 

Now, of course some people are naturally a bit wary about your "help".

Edit: wierd double post.

Edited November 17, 201510 yr by Shahenshah