78 replies to this topic

[Lysistrata]

I am saddened that you think I hate you, I would like to like you, but your style does not sit well with me.

You don't hate me... but you hate what I am. That's not your fault, that's on me. I did that. Unfortunately, I can't change what I am. I can only apologize, and keep going. I don't hope to change minds, I only hope for you guys to understand the other side... and you guys need to understand that when you judge and label good people with vile names, it kinda kills any negotiation. I really liked "deplorable" though... that one was fun!

Wel then I just keep it to me feeling strange that one elects the judiciary branch of a nation, does any other nation do this?

Supreme Court and Federal Judges are appointed by the President. Our local Judges are elected. I don't know how others do it.

[Sister Midnight]

I am saddened that you think I hate you, I would like to like you, but your style does not sit well with me.

You don't hate me... but you hate what I am. That's not your fault, that's on me. I did that. Unfortunately, I can't change what I am. I can only apologize, and keep going. I don't hope to change minds, I only hope for you guys to understand the other side... and you guys need to understand that when you judge and label good people with vile names, it kinda kills any negotiation. I really liked "deplorable" though... that one was fun!

You misunderstand me, I don't hate WHAT you are, I don't like the way you treat people. I don't expect you to change who you are, but I do not think you are defined solely by your actions. You seem dismayed by my annoyance at you, and you want to keep this conversation public, so I will try to be as kind as I can under the circumstances. My annoyance isn't about what you are, it is about how you treat me and others. I have no hate at all in me for you. Your remark about "you guys" is designed to put people on the defensive and to deflect and manipulate. I understand points of view that differ from mine and I try to respect them. I expect that same respect from others. Are you saying you are unable to give that respect and you cannot change your behaviors? Right now I just want be sure of what you are trying to say.

[Lysistrata]

Your remark about "you guys" is designed to put people on the defensive and to deflect and manipulate.

"you guys" = Democrats, Liberals, Progressives... whatever name "you guys" are calling yourselves today. It was merely an identifier. It was not designed to put you on the defensive, deflect, or manipulate anything. "You guys" always have to play the victim, right? Are you wearing your safety pin today? I'm one of those people you're supposed to be afraid to talk to. We debate things here at the adults table, and we make pretty clear what our opinions are. I do enjoy it. The rest I'll just say... "I tried".

[Sister Midnight]

Got it. Best of luck to you, Lys.

So anyway. Back on topic, when did America stop being great?

[Canik]

I think America never stopped being great but it has, perhaps, lessened in recent years. The reason I believe is because before we were always expanding. In about 200 years we went from the 13 colonies to the leading world super-power. That is a crazy amount of expansion in a relatively short amount of time and with that expansion came a lot of benefits. But finally we expanded as far as we reasonable could and maybe even farther. It's hard to keep so much of the world under our thumb which is why some like Crimea, Georgia, Syria are slipping away from us.

Add in us looking toward the future & globalization and trying to push that agenda forward with generous trade agreements and such and it results in America becoming less great than it was for it's citizens.

And while it may sound like I/America are being self-centered.. well, we are to an extent. But do you think Russia/China/ISIS won't be? If we leave, someone else will fill the void and chances are they will treat you at least as bad if not worse. Probably worse.

Not like the free trade agreements even help the people in 3rd world countries that much, they are treated more or less like slaves. The only people I think benefit much or at all from it are the 1%. There is also a moral question of if we should trade with nations like Saudi Arabia which treat their women like literal pieces of meat and is literally still a Monarchy. Liberals have a really contradicting message there. Are we all about social justice or are we all about respecting other cultures & globalization, because it can't be both.

But I digress. Point is, America is having trouble because there are no more frontiers to conquer. Or the ones that are there, it's just taking a very long time and is not easy. Like expanding to Mars. If we could've done that easily, the world would probably doing better as a whole.. but it hasn't been that easy. We've been confined to our little world and stagnating because of it.

[ccabal86]

"Are we all about social justice or are we all about respecting other cultures & globalization, because it can't be both."

Bingo. It doen't just apply to Saudi Arabia, it applies to domestic minority groups as well. I am on the position that everyone should be held to the same standards "religion" and "culture" cannot be an excuse.

[Finster Baby]

Wow, a lot of  you getting off-topic. I'm shocked.... 

 

I believe the PHRASE "make America great again" is to do with the shrinking middle class.

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/09/for-most-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/

 

The super rich are getting richer. The poorer have Obamacare and $15/hr wages. The working poor like me and most of middle America feel they aren't heard, cannot get ahead at all, and are losing ground, no matter how hard we work - and we do work hard.

 

A country is only as healthy as its middle class and ours is fading fast. So making America "great", means if you work hard and do not want to be a syphon on the government dole, you should be able to hold a job, pay your taxes, and provide for your family. But alas, the middle class cannot do this.

And that is why our country is not as "great" as it used to be.

Trump does not give one shit about you.  Don't even begin to think otherwise.

 

He cares about one thing:  His bottom line.  He will support tax cuts to him and his millionaire/billionaire buddies and Wall Street, and middle class schlubs like you and me will be forced to pay for it.

[Finster Baby]

Supreme Court and Federal Judges are appointed by the President. Our local Judges are elected. I don't know how others do it.

For local judges, some states (NJ comes to mind) appoint their judges, while others (PA, for example) elect them.

I'm of the opinion that no judge should be elected. They should be appointed.

[Finster Baby]

"you guys" = Democrats, Liberals, Progressives... whatever name "you guys" are calling yourselves today. It was merely an identifier. It was not designed to put you on the defensive, deflect, or manipulate anything. "You guys" always have to play the victim, right? Are you wearing your safety pin today? I'm one of those people you're supposed to be afraid to talk to. We debate things here at the adults table, and we make pretty clear what our opinions are. I do enjoy it. The rest I'll just say... "I tried".

Holy shit, did you really just patronize SM like that?

This is the reason why I can't tolerate conservatives like you and your buddies. You truly like being like this and cannot (or maybe will not) even consider a different point of view, or even begin to consider a compromise.

Its one of the main reasons I will NEVER support the Republican party. I may not like some of the Democrats and their views either, but personal destruction isn't one of their core values.

And before you ask, no, no pin, no plans on ever wearing one, thankyouverymuch.

I plan on giving Trump the same support the Republicans gave Pres. Obama over the last 8 years - NONE

[Lysistrata]

Trump does not give one shit about you.  Don't even begin to think otherwise.   He cares about one thing:  His bottom line.  He will support tax cuts to him and his millionaire/billionaire buddies and Wall Street, and middle class schlubs like you and me will be forced to pay for it.

I never called Hillary Clinton a liar... until she lied. I never called Hillary Clinton a habitual liar... until she could not stop lying. I never called Hillary Clinton a criminal... until she was a criminal. I have 30 years experience with Hillary, so I have a pretty good case.

 

Donald Trump has not even begun to serve yet, and you say it's a foregone conclusion that he's a lying, self-serving, puppet for the wealthy. I'm looking at the upcoming Trump era with optimistic skepticism. It appears that he will be taking the same path as Ronald Reagan did when he had to fix the disastrous Carter economy... this should do the trick. The rest of his campaign promises we just have to wait and see. If you're right... I will come here and congratulate you on your brilliant clairvoyance and we will fix it. If you're wrong... will you come here and tell us you were wrong?

[Lysistrata]

 

Supreme Court and Federal Judges are appointed by the President. Our local Judges are elected. I don't know how others do it.

For local judges, some states (NJ comes to mind) appoint their judges, while others (PA, for example) elect them.

I'm of the opinion that no judge should be elected. They should be appointed.

 

I hate electing Judges... I don't know anything about them and they ask me for my vote.

[Finster Baby]

I WANT to be wrong about this. And maybe my vitrol about this should be pointed at the GOP more than Trump, but, we know the GOP is in the pocket of the upper class and corporations, and you can see that in the bills they pass. They cut taxes for the upper class and we're stuck with either the middle class paying for it, or even more debt, which they'll scream about until they're blue in the face.

Supreme Court and Federal Judges are appointed by the President. Our local Judges are elected. I don't know how others do it.

For local judges, some states (NJ comes to mind) appoint their judges, while others (PA, for example) elect them.

I'm of the opinion that no judge should be elected. They should be appointed.

I hate electing Judges... I don't know anything about them and they ask me for my vote.

See?? We can find common ground!

[Shahenshah]

Wow, a lot of  you getting off-topic. I'm shocked.... 

 

I believe the PHRASE "make America great again" is to do with the shrinking middle class.

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/09/for-most-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/

 

The super rich are getting richer. The poorer have Obamacare and $15/hr wages. The working poor like me and most of middle America feel they aren't heard, cannot get ahead at all, and are losing ground, no matter how hard we work - and we do work hard.

 

A country is only as healthy as its middle class and ours is fading fast. So making America "great", means if you work hard and do not want to be a syphon on the government dole, you should be able to hold a job, pay your taxes, and provide for your family. But alas, the middle class cannot do this.

And that is why our country is not as "great" as it used to be.

You have a very good point. But, GOP and Middle class are like oil and water. 

 

Fin, you will see how GOP will put in the anchors for middle class collapsing..and with their collective shouting, blame it on the next democratic president like they did with Obama. 

 

Personally, I'd like Trump to remain sane and succeed. A calm, sitting, relaxing and happy America is better than knee-jerking America. Personally, I'd like to see a more pacifist Foreign policy (good for your economy..given that your economy is atm entirely dependent on dollar being the major trading currency) and stop being science-denying idiots on climate change. 

[Lysistrata]

 

"you guys" = Democrats, Liberals, Progressives... whatever name "you guys" are calling yourselves today. It was merely an identifier. It was not designed to put you on the defensive, deflect, or manipulate anything. "You guys" always have to play the victim, right? Are you wearing your safety pin today? I'm one of those people you're supposed to be afraid to talk to. We debate things here at the adults table, and we make pretty clear what our opinions are. I do enjoy it. The rest I'll just say... "I tried".

Holy shit, did you really just patronize SM like that?

This is the reason why I can't tolerate conservatives like you and your buddies. You truly like being like this and cannot (or maybe will not) even consider a different point of view, or even begin to consider a compromise.

Its one of the main reasons I will NEVER support the Republican party. I may not like some of the Democrats and their views either, but personal destruction isn't one of their core values.

And before you ask, no, no pin, no plans on ever wearing one, thankyouverymuch.

I plan on giving Trump the same support the Republicans gave Pres. Obama over the last 8 years - NONE

 

This is really between SM and I, but since you have your dander up, I'll give it a shot.

 

We debate here. I sometimes say things that hurt feelings, but that's debating. I apologize for that, and I have no problem admitting that I can come off as a jerk sometimes, but it doesn't make me wrong. When Conservatives debate Progressives, it's pretty much a debate between common sense vs. unicorns and rainbows. When Progressives can't win a debate they will default to getting emotional, taking offense, and name calling. Racist and Bigot are tied for the top spot right now, and I am quite used to it because I am a very outspoken and practicing political Conservative. I could have called her a "snowflake crybaby" but that's not what I do... so I implied it. I apologize for my past debates... and I apologize for all my future debates. Too bad because I'm a pretty good friend to have. I wonder where my good friend Icewolf is? I have not heard from him since the election... I was just as surprised as everyone else.

[Finster Baby]

If I don't agree with your point of view, then you're wrong.

You paint with an awfully broad brush. Not all of us Democrats are throwing around Bigot, Racist, etc for individuals. Some of the policies that seem to be open to be implemented can be construed that way.

I said it before. I hope I'm wrong. However, I'm pretty sure that I won't be.

In 2008 plenty of people said Obama "wasn't their President." Well, Trump isn't mine. He's going to be the president of the country in which I live, but his values are not mine. His views, for the most part, are not mine. He was elected by a minority of the people who voted, but that's another debate for another day.

He will not make America great again. If anything, the next 4 years will make the W years look stellar by comparison.

Also, as I mentioned, I will give him the same amount of support the GOP gave Pres. Obama. Which was NONE.

[Bill N Ted]

Creation of the Federal Reserve in 1913.  

[Sister Midnight]

Creation of the Federal Reserve in 1913.  

That's when the USA stopped being great?

[Lysistrata]

If I don't agree with your point of view, then you're wrong.

I can accept that. My problem with Progressives is they play fast and loose with other people's money on things that get them elected... like affordable healthcare and free college... but they take no responsibility when things go wrong. We told you guys Obamacare wouldn't work. We fought it to the bitter end. Not a single Republican supported it, or voted for it. Now you guys blame us for it's failure. You guys gave 5% of the population hope for something free... it's dragged our economy to the ground, made the rest of us pay for it, and now you want us to help it continue.

You paint with an awfully broad brush. Not all of us Democrats are throwing around Bigot, Racist, etc for individuals. Some of the policies that seem to be open to be implemented can be construed that way.

I appreciate that. I have opposed Barack Obama's policies from day one... can't count how many times I have been called a racist. I opposed his so called auto bailout... because it wasn't an auto bailout... he illegally interfered with the bankruptcy court and bailed out the UAW, his supporters. The man I do work for lost 4 dealerships because Obama took care of the Union, and left everyone else to die. Don't believe me? Seen any new Pontiac's lately? Yeah, so many lives turned upside down to protect his precious unions. I didn't oppose him because he's black... I opposed him because he's wrong.

I said it before. I hope I'm wrong. However, I'm pretty sure that I won't be.

In 2008 plenty of people said Obama "wasn't their President." Well, Trump isn't mine. He's going to be the president of the country in which I live, but his values are not mine. His views, for the most part, are not mine. He was elected by a minority of the people who voted, but that's another debate for another day.

He will not make America great again. If anything, the next 4 years will make the W years look stellar by comparison.

Also, as I mentioned, I will give him the same amount of support the GOP gave Pres. Obama. Which was NONE.

I fully expect the opposition party to fight just as hard as we did. You have my full support, my friend. Our girls are depending on us.

[Finster Baby]

I'm not gonna nest quotes here, it requires effort.

Obamacare is a poorly written law. Its goals are good ones, however, the execution is terrible. The individual mandate is a joke, esp. when the insurance companies are using it to jack up rates. There are good parts: The prohibition of denying for existing conditions. The requirement that birth control be covered. The coverage of college aged students who otherwise live at home when not at school. (I think 26 is too long, but thats just me.) That meeting the president held with both sides was a joke. The GOP said no, and Obama didn't encourage debate. The art of the compromise is so long gone in DC its not funny. I'm in favor of FIXING Obamacare, not scrapping it entirely. I believe it can be saved.

Regarding the auto bailout - the same can be said about the banks. That they were "too big to fail." Well you know what, maybe one or 2 of them should have failed. Maybe we'd have better financial policy. I don't completely buy your assessment of the bailout, however, I can agree that it caused more pain that it perhaps should have. And, FYI, Pontiac's were terrible cars.

Your girl, my son, my girl...yep. We can't hand them a leaky bag of shit.

[Sister Midnight]

 

"you guys" = Democrats, Liberals, Progressives... whatever name "you guys" are calling yourselves today. It was merely an identifier. It was not designed to put you on the defensive, deflect, or manipulate anything. "You guys" always have to play the victim, right? Are you wearing your safety pin today? I'm one of those people you're supposed to be afraid to talk to. We debate things here at the adults table, and we make pretty clear what our opinions are. I do enjoy it. The rest I'll just say... "I tried".

Holy shit, did you really just patronize SM like that?
This is the reason why I can't tolerate conservatives like you and your buddies. You truly like being like this and cannot (or maybe will not) even consider a different point of view, or even begin to consider a compromise.
Its one of the main reasons I will NEVER support the Republican party. I may not like some of the Democrats and their views either, but personal destruction isn't one of their core values.
And before you ask, no, no pin, no plans on ever wearing one, thankyouverymuch.
I plan on giving Trump the same support the Republicans gave Pres. Obama over the last 8 years - NONE
 

This is really between SM and I, but since you have your dander up, I'll give it a shot.
 
We debate here. I sometimes say things that hurt feelings, but that's debating. I apologize for that, and I have no problem admitting that I can come off as a jerk sometimes, but it doesn't make me wrong. When Conservatives debate Progressives, it's pretty much a debate between common sense vs. unicorns and rainbows. When Progressives can't win a debate they will default to getting emotional, taking offense, and name calling. Racist and Bigot are tied for the top spot right now, and I am quite used to it because I am a very outspoken and practicing political Conservative. I could have called her a "snowflake crybaby" but that's not what I do... so I implied it. I apologize for my past debates... and I apologize for all my future debates. Too bad because I'm a pretty good friend to have. I wonder where my good friend Icewolf is? I have not heard from him since the election... I was just as surprised as everyone else.

You made it public and you made your remarks in a thread that I started. I invited you to talk privately and you refused. Show some personal accountability.

You whine about progressives name calling, but you are the person doing all the name calling. I can point to numerous instances of you insulting and name calling and personally attacking people. That is not debate, that is bullying. You have just announced that you are incapable of having a conversation with someone who disagrees with you without bullying and you "apologize," but will continue to be abusive. It is a pity that you cannot honestly reflect upon yourself and the people around here and behave appropriately, particularly because anything valuable you might add to a debate is lost in your ugly rhetoric. Please think about what I am saying - for your own sake.