101 replies to this topic

[Shahenshah]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/24/us/politics/health-care-affordable-care-act.html

 

 

A bill strongly supported by Trump gets pulled. 

 

[ccabal86]

You'd think that in the past 8 years they had time to come up with an alternative system, but no.

[BurnedLemons]

Who knew governing is so hard? Must have been Hillary and her friends at Comet Ping Pong.

[Finster Baby]

This makes me happy beyond belief, the GOP getting embarrassed like this, Trump not getting his way, etc.

Now maybe they can get to work fixing the issues with the ACA and not trying to screw the American people.

I won't hold my breath.

[Lysistrata]

They dropped the ball on this on January 21st when they didn't straight up repeal the ACA when everyone expected them to do it.

 

The Ryan bill didn't repeal ObamaCare... it was an ObamaCare fix. We're not interested in fixing ObamaCare, we want it repealed. We killed this because we would rather see the ACA collapse than rescue it.

 

Did anyone read it? I'm not against shifting the subsidies from insurance companies to the taxpayers... giving people a tax credit for purchasing health insurance isn't so bad... it was keeping everything bad about ObamaCare in place until "Stage 3"... you can see how hard it was to get "Stage 1" to the House floor, and it didn't stand a chance in the Senate. "Stage 3" was a myth, and it would never have happened. This needed to die, and we killed it. It was a complete waste of time.

 

Grab some popcorn and watch the destruction of the ACA in glorious Technicolor... it's already dying and we won't help it.

[Sister Midnight]

I realize this is all very abstract to most of you, but I am directly effected by it. I was denied any insurance coverage for years because both my husband and myself were self-employed and he has a per-existing condition. The Affordable Healthcare Act may have saved me from either going bankrupt or dying because I was able to seek treatment for an illness that would have killed me if left unchecked.  Yeah it's easy to say just repeal the Affordable Healthcare Act when you have never delayed getting treatment because you had no health insurance.

I am sick of this being a political/philosophical issue. People's lives are on the line here. I see "good Christians" in the Republican party raging against universal healthcare. These are the same people who claim to care so much about fetuses not being aborted, but what if the pregnant mother can't get health insurance?  That's her problem, right?   And heaven forbid they have a system in place to help pay for a person's medical treatment after they leave the uterus.

 

FU to anyone who would allow me, or anyone else, to die or go broke paying for medical treatment.  And before people rejoice too much about the Republicans getting burned by their crappy planning, keep in mind they WILL eventually come up with something that squeaks by, and it WILL suck donkey pucks.  So I'm not gloating right now. I am pissed off that this is an issue at all.  Fix the flaws in ACA and don't leave me to drown in a sea of debt if I get sick.  It can be done if we stop making this about politics and start thinking about the well-being of society.

[Lysistrata]

I feel what you're saying SM, and Universal Healthcare is a wonderful idea... but this is a serious question that you need to answer.

 

How will you get everyone involved in the healthcare industry... from education, doctors, surgeons, nurses, medicine, emergency services, medical equipment... and everything else I can't think of right now... to accept the pay cut, and go on a wimpy government wage scale... for the "common good"? It's a wonderful dream, from the "Wouldn't It Be Nice?" party, but it's not even in the realm of reality. NO ONE WILL DO IT!!!

 

The ACA carried us into the realm of stupidity. The Democrats decided on their own that they were going to force everyone to pay insurance companies whatever they wanted to charge to take care of everyone. Anyone that can show they don't make any money, doesn't have to pay for it. So what did this do? It obviously will not lower cost, and it obviously doesn't encourage anyone to make money. As soon as the Republicans said no to the insurance risk corridor... you know that bailout for insurance companies to continue raping taxpayers? They all bailed out and left you guys high and dry. Death Spiral.

 

As long as profit drives healthcare we will all have to pay for those services, and I would wager no one in the industry wants to be charitable with their profession. I understand about pre-existing conditions, but these people want a lot of money and it's not the responsibility of everyone else to pay for it. I would agree to Medicaid covering everyone for catastrophic coverage, and then insurance companies supplying supplemental policies for those that want more insurance. That should be about it.

[Sister Midnight]

I work on a sliding scale. My office is in one of the wealthiest towns in the country, and my retail rate would seem obscene to someone in NV. I ask my patients what they can afford to pay. Some pay retail, some pay about 25% of my retail price. I make a decent living and I am happy with this practice. You assume all providers are just greedy, you're mistaken.

Universal healthcare: insurance pays provider x for each procedure. Anyone currently accepting insurance is already getting paid x so there is no loss of income to switch to universal. I stopped taking insurance because I had to stand on my head to get paid. If there wasn't so much hassle I'd go back to accepting insurance, and I'd certainly accept universal insurance, I know a lot of people who feel the same, the only problem is the insurance companies would not like it.

Why does almost every country in the free world have universal healthcare? Because it works. Your argument has no foundation.

[Lysistrata]

Why does almost every country in the free world have universal healthcare? Because it works. Your argument has no foundation.

Why does everyone in every other country in the free world, that can afford to be treated in the USA, come to the USA to be treated? Because Universal Healthcare sucks. I don't assume that all providers are greedy... I know for a fact that most of them are. We have the best healthcare on the planet... all you have to do is pay for it. If you have to file for bankruptcy... I know a guy that can sell you a car... that's what I do. I help people after they have to file for bankruptcy, and I get paid for doing it. It's one of those Federal protections we have that not every other country in the free world has. We can go into debt for millions, and then screw our creditors every seven years. That's what greed is.

 

Living a life is expensive. If people don't know this, it's a failure of parenting. Too many Americans have had it too easy for far too long. People just don't understand what it is to be personally responsible anymore, and they believe they are owed something for just breathing. I have a friend that is a World War II Vet... I take time to have dinner with him twice a week and bowl with him once a week. If it were not for my wife and I, he would have no one. He's one of the last of the greatest generation. We have lost so much.

[Sister Midnight]

Why does almost every country in the free world have universal healthcare? Because it works. Your argument has no foundation.

Why does everyone in every other country in the free world, that can afford to be treated in the USA, come to the USA to be treated? Because Universal Healthcare sucks. I don't assume that all providers are greedy... I know for a fact that most of them are. We have the best healthcare on the planet... all you have to do is pay for it. If you have to file for bankruptcy... I know a guy that can sell you a car... that's what I do. I help people after they have to file for bankruptcy, and I get paid for doing it. It's one of those Federal protections we have that not every other country in the free world has. We can go into debt for millions, and then screw our creditors every seven years. That's what greed is.

Do you think that is a good thing? Don, does. He's filed for bankruptcy repeatedly and screwed over creditors. I consider it amoral , but that doesn't matter. What matters is that these poverty is a disease to society and we are all better off keeping poverty to a minimum. Less poverty = less crime and a better quality of life for every single person within a society. The idea that bankruptcy is somehow desirable is the epitome of greed and corruption.

As for MOST providers being greedy, which you know for a fact... well I don't know where you get your facts from, but I stand by my statement that commercial insurance does not pay providers better than universal healthcare would, therefore they have nothing to lose with universal healthcare.

I don't see thousands of people from the free world pounding at the gates to see American doctors, but maybe you know something I don't know about international medical visitation.

Living a life is expensive. If people don't know this, it's a failure of parenting. Too many Americans have had it too easy for far too long. People just don't understand what it is to be personally responsible anymore, and they believe they are owed something for just breathing. I have a friend that is a World War II Vet... I take time to have dinner with him twice a week and bowl with him once a week. If it were not for my wife and I, he would have no one. He's one of the last of the greatest generation. We have lost so much.

But you support keeping the status quo? You are a great guy for visiting with your friend, the old vet. That's nice. Kinda don't see your point since you are contradicting your first paragraph.

[DarkFox]

Now I am in no means a fan of Obamacare. My insurance went from $70 a month with a $25 copay and a $5 grand deductible. Now I am at $145, $40 copay and $6k deductible. Now if it were just that it would be fine, but the insurance doesn't cover in house procedures from my usual doctor like they used to. I had to pay $400 for 3 visits to remove a pesky wart. With that said I am an outlier, and I am fine with that. This current proposed change doesn't fix anything but instead provides tax cuts to the wealthy, why on Earth would anyone think this is a good idea? Unless of course their goal is to receive said tax cut.

 

In my opinion Obamacare isn't perfect and could be made into something great, but they are letting politics get into the way of it. 

 

Living a life is expensive. If people don't know this, it's a failure of parenting. Too many Americans have had it too easy for far too long. People just don't understand what it is to be personally responsible anymore, and they believe they are owed something for just breathing. I have a friend that is a World War II Vet... I take time to have dinner with him twice a week and bowl with him once a week. If it were not for my wife and I, he would have no one. He's one of the last of the greatest generation. We have lost so much.

 

 

Why does it have to be expensive though? From my while limited experience I have seen greed by certain people make things expensive. The healthcare system itself is screwed up because of the corruption of greed. Insurance companies owning hospitals, pharma companies and the suppliers to the hospitals and then hiking up prices. Corruption is why things are expensive, not life.

[onbekende]

1) I laugh at the idea that Trump is a Republican or has any affiliation with it. The guy coattailed on its ticket and had (cause he switched target...) the gal to threaten them with a "Do what I say or get out"? Hilarious that it was the Tea Party that made this come crashing down Heck can he finally make up his mind if he wants to Repeal/Replace/Adjust the ACA, the guy switches tune faster then a traffic signal.

 

2) The ACA will eventually come crashing down, mainly cause everything does eventually if it doesn't get adjusted over time. And I doubt this will happen even near the time Trump is still carrying the "President" tag. I do wonder that when it happens, it will be done by sabotage (Republica no doubt) on the budget level, you can sink alot of programs by just going around on not funding it properly.

 

3) Total WTF from the whole world btw: making maternity care optional (amongst other things)? Who's bright idea was that? oo right, it was to placate the "Freedom Caucus", someone rename these Tea Party libertarians to the "Narcisist Caucus".

Does this mean I can ask for a reduction in taxes if I lose a leg? >_>

 

4) As for people from (western) world coming to the USA for healthcare, this is due to speciality and novel treatments, things not found in their home country. As for being able to pay it, well, our insurance covers it! Probably finds the rates mindbowing, but then again it also covers us in Indonesia where the rates are probably laughable in comparison.

[Lysistrata]

Do you think that is a good thing? Don, does. He's filed for bankruptcy repeatedly and screwed over creditors.

No... it's a horrible practice when the privilege is abused. Trump had to file a business BK 4 times. He has over 500 business'... so it's not a bad record, but if we drove everyone to ruin whenever they had a hiccup, we would not have everything else he has done since then.

But you support keeping the status quo?

The ACA is the status quo. I do not support it. Your friends in Congress should have supported Ryan's plan if they wanted to keep the ACA, because it would have fixed the ACA, and it would have been all the Republican's fault. All they had to do then was kill Stage 2 and 3, and boom, it's fixed... but they couldn't do anything that looked like they were supporting a Republican bill. Democrats have never been known for thinking ahead.

Why does it have to be expensive though?

It has to be expensive because healthcare providers in the USA are among the highest paid professions on the planet. They will never give up their bank accounts in trade for a higher workload... never.

[BurnedLemons]

My comment above was speaking from the position of Ruler of GlutenComa: that of Alex Jones in a tinfoil dunce cap.

IRL, I'm a cancer survivor. I finished six months of chemo in 2008. Had I no coverage at the time, my treatment cost would have been north of $350,000.

When the company I was working with closed up shop and left town in 2009, and inspired me to go back to school - I went uninsured for 4 years. Not good. It doesn't keep health costs down to allow for someone to develop cancer again and then deal with treating it when it gets to that point.

I only have coverage now thanks to my state having accepted the Medicaid expansion. And, fortunately, I've been in good health since then.

Sometimes, gallows humor is the only way I can deal with things like this. I see this choice between a trillion $ tax cut for the richer and keeping the expansion in very black and white terms.

[Lysistrata]

I don't see thousands of people from the free world pounding at the gates to see American doctors, but maybe you know something I don't know about international medical visitation.

Can you see the thousands of doctors from these countries pounding the gates to become American doctors? They want the money. Universal Healthcare would not make them happy. Us Republicans know very well that Democrats rush passed the ACA in the dead of night with a reconciliation vote, because it was all they could get. It was designed to fail, and they wanted it to fail... they just never dreamed they wouldn't still be in charge to turn it into what they really wanted... Universal Healthcare. Now we will be watching it fail until they allow us to fix it. I told you Democrats are not known for thinking ahead.

My comment above was speaking from the position of Ruler of GlutenComa: that of Alex Jones in a tinfoil dunce cap.

I still have no idea what you're talking about, but I'm glad you feel better. Happy to know Medicaid does it's job. 

[Sister Midnight]

I don't see thousands of people from the free world pounding at the gates to see American doctors, but maybe you know something I don't know about international medical visitation.

Can you see the thousands of doctors from these countries pounding the gates to become American doctors? They want the money. Universal Healthcare would not make them happy. Us Republicans know very well that Democrats rush passed the ACA in the dead of night with a reconciliation vote, because it was all they could get. It was designed to fail, and they wanted it to fail... they just never dreamed they wouldn't still be in charge to turn it into what they really wanted... Universal Healthcare. Now we will be watching it fail until they allow us to fix it. I told you Democrats are not known for thinking ahead.

America is generally a country that relies on incrementalism. Sometimes that is a maddeningly slow process, but in the case of ACA, it is necessary. Adjust and improve it. You don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

And yes doctors from certain countries do want to come here because they will be paid better and have a better quality of life here. They usually try to get on insurance panels because that is how they will get patients.

Tell me, do your physicians accept insurance? If so, what would change for them if we had universal healthcare?

[Shahenshah]

They dropped the ball on this on January 21st when they didn't straight up repeal the ACA when everyone expected them to do it.

The Ryan bill didn't repeal ObamaCare... it was an ObamaCare fix. We're not interested in fixing ObamaCare, we want it repealed. We killed this because we would rather see the ACA collapse than rescue it.

Did anyone read it? I'm not against shifting the subsidies from insurance companies to the taxpayers... giving people a tax credit for purchasing health insurance isn't so bad... it was keeping everything bad about ObamaCare in place until "Stage 3"... you can see how hard it was to get "Stage 1" to the House floor, and it didn't stand a chance in the Senate. "Stage 3" was a myth, and it would never have happened. This needed to die, and we killed it. It was a complete waste of time.

Grab some popcorn and watch the destruction of the ACA in glorious Technicolor... it's already dying and we won't help it.

"Since we couldn't get our TrumpRyanCare version passed, which I am now going to disown and praise a small minority of my party for blocking it, I'll now be glad to just watch us crash and burn the system governing 1/5th of the economy and lives of millions along with it. Then we will be able to finally replace it with something where rich get more richer and call it free market xyz so we don't feel bad about it."

Edited to add more spice.

No seriously tho, GOP governs now, job is to legislate and fix what you think is broken, that's the job at which GOP just failed miserably along with WH. That's not the legendary deal making we've all been hearing about. There is nothing wrong in saying shit hit the fan and that GOP really had no plan B other than criticising plan A for years and now that Plan C couldn't make it, we'll actually start working on it now, it needs time.

[Sister Midnight]

Yes, let's not try to improve things, just let it crash and burn. That'll show everyone! /sarcasm

[Lysistrata]

Tell me, do your physicians accept insurance? If so, what would change for them if we had universal healthcare?

Yes they do. Last year I had laser surgery to remove cataracts from both of my eyes. The year before I had surgery to correct my deviated septum. I can see much better now... except I need reading glasses now, and I can breathe... which is always good. I have great doctors, and they were payed with my way too high cash deductibles and great insurance to cover the rest. There was no waiting period... it was done as soon as I wanted to schedule the surgeries. It's not Obamacare, so it's a lot cheaper than other people I know that have to buy the government mandated crap. If I had to buy Obamacare, I would have never had it done because the deductibles would have been more than I can comfortably throw their way.

 

How would Universal Healthcare change things? The Veterans Administration is run completely by the US Government. Have you been paying attention to that? They had a waiting list, and if that waiting list was in good order they would get bonuses. They really wanted their bonuses, so they created a secret waiting list to get on the real waiting list. People died waiting on that list, and that's just the Vets... you know? Those people that fight our wars for us? Sorry, I will never trust the US Government with my health.

[Fox Fire]

Yeah totally expected. Everyone on the right wants to appeal obamacare but they have nothing to replace it with other than the same crap system we had before obamacare. Which oddly enough, is the same thing obamacare did. It didn't change anything. It just forced us all to pay for the same crap we had before and absolutely raped and monopolized the health care market. Plagiarize the Swiss health care system?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2011/04/29/why-switzerland-has-the-worlds-best-health-care-system/#6f6047857d74

Yes they do. Last year I had laser surgery to remove cataracts from both of my eyes. The year before I had surgery to correct my deviated septum. I can see much better now... except I need reading glasses now, and I can breathe... which is always good. I have great doctors, and they were payed with my way too high cash deductibles and great insurance to cover the rest. There was no waiting period... it was done as soon as I wanted to schedule the surgeries. It's not Obamacare, so it's a lot cheaper than other people I know that have to buy the government mandated crap. If I had to buy Obamacare, I would have never had it done because the deductibles would have been more than I can comfortably throw their way.

 

So what about people like me who couldn't afford that either way? Just shit outa luck?