101 replies to this topic

[DarkFox]

 

What I was trying to say if I didn't come off clearly is; I want a universal healthcare that doesn't categorize people and treats everyone exactly the same regardless of age, race, and wealth. Charging everyone in taxes the same percentage across the board and not having the insurance companies involved since they skim heavily. That of course is a super simplified version, but I believe it would be a good goal to work towards.

Hmmm... reminds me of an old Steely Dan song I listened to when I was a teenager, until I wore the record out. I have the CD now but I haven't listened to it in a few years... it goes like this:

"I heard it was you... talkin' 'bout a world where all is free... it just couldn't be... and only a fool would say that"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06a19-S77F4

Taking care of your medical needs takes time and knowledge from people that like very much to stick their own price tag on their talent. What you want is socialized healthcare, and to supply that to 320 million people would not be possible. We don't have a convenience store... like a Starbucks... on every corner handing out PhD's for $5 a shot. How do you think Doctors and Surgeons will feel when the law is signed by the President that they can't have a private practice anymore? We would then have a medical crisis on our hands. You also can't have a little bit of Communism. As soon as healthcare is a right, then you will see these creatures screaming for food, and houses, and transportation, and every other service that costs money. It's the road to ruin my friend. On paper you can create a cashless society where everything is free, and everybody is just fine with it... but in the real world you would be drawn and quartered in the street... real medieval like. No one wants that to happen.

 

 

 

Why wouldn't doctors be able to have private practices? All they would have to do is bill the government for the treatment like they do in Canada. If we follow similar model as them the doctor's income would drop a little bit but the overhead would drop immensely and the working conditions would improve. Our medical system has been an utter joke for far too long when we are supposed to be the greatest country in the world. Between this and our shitty school system I am ashamed with how our leaders let the corrupt act in the past 20 years specifically.

 

Also I am not talking about Communism, it is a social reform. A purely capitalistic state is doomed to fail because eventually there are poor people and rich people, no middle class. We shouldn't seek labels but instead what works and what doesn't. I don't want free money, food, shelter and having to work where I am told to, I want a place where we treat others well and their happiness improves ours. That may sound like hippy crap but it is what we are a society should stride for, because it is not possible in 10 or 20 years from now, but instead is possible today. Why should we settle for anything less than greatness?

Why wouldn't doctors be able to have private practices? All they would have to do if bill the government for the treatment like they do in Canada. If we follow similar model as them their income 

[Lysistrata]

Why wouldn't doctors be able to have private practices?

Private practice is freedom. They can do whatever they want, treat whoever they want, charge whatever they want, and get paid whichever way they want. Single payer will not pay them what they want... so they would only service the people that will pay them.

 

This is why the poor have such a hard time finding a doctor that will accept Medicaid. Very few doctors will put up with government limits, and they take forever to get paid. Medicaid fraud is all over the place as well. They charge the government for people they never treated, and for illness they never had. They believe it's justified because the government screws them over so bad for what they really do.

 

So when we have a single payer system, we would still have the problem of not enough care, and only the wealthy receiving the best. Government would have to step in and force them to do it... hence the law to abolish private practice. Great to hear you are only wanting a little Communism, but if you listen closely to Bernie Sanders and his followers, you will discover the screaming creatures I was talking about.

 

Rights are free, and no one has to be a government slave to supply them to anyone. You have the right to bear arms... but no one is required to give you a gun. You have the right to an attorney... but Public Defenders work for the people that will convict you. They will only tell you to keep quiet, and when they find you guilty, throw yourself on the mercy of the court. You have the right to life... no one can legally just kill you. You have freedom of speech... say whatever you want. The only thing that has cost is the soldiers that keep it that way.

 

But if you're hungry you go out and buy some food. If you want a place to live you have to buy a house or rent an apartment. If you want to get to work you must buy a bus pass, or buy a car. If you have a toe infection, you go to a doctor and pay him to prescribe you a cream... then you go to the pharmacy and pay them for the cream. All of this costs money... for you, and only you. You must pay for it. None of this is a right.

[onbekende]

Well that didn't like to be seperated

 

So Lys is mainly complaining about government programs being insufficient cause they lack proper funds and leadership. Next up he demands government does nothing while certain groups get richer for being rich.

classy.

It is high time to learn that rich people make the country richer. They employ everyone, and some of them have the salt to become rich themselves, and continue the cycle. If everyone is poor, then no one is rich. Leave the money alone and it will work for everyone. It always has.

 

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AAAh the trickle down economics. Give me 1 economy where just trickle-down has made improvements. Every advancement of the lower/middle class has been thruw social reforms/programs, education is a prime example.
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The ACA is the status quo. I do not support it. Your friends in Congress should have supported Ryan's plan if they wanted to keep the ACA, because it would have fixed the ACA, and it would have been all the Republican's fault. All they had to do then was kill Stage 2 and 3, and boom, it's fixed... but they couldn't do anything that looked like they were supporting a Republican bill. Democrats have never been known for thinking ahead.

The Republicans had 7 years to get some plan into the works when the enevitable gov-switch came, who are you blaming they can't think ahead? The guys just had their campaighn slogans noted down into "a bill", what happended in those 7 years of sidelined angered opposition?

Now you start chiming about bi-partisan support, when before half the statements were "lets repeal ACA!", offcourse the Dems won't sit on your table to discuss the finer points (heck was there even a table used once?). Did the Dems ever complain about bi-partisan support when they tried taking all your guns? >_>

 

Republicans ran in 2010 to repeal the ACA and said "Give us the House and we'll do it" ...We gave them the House.
Republicans ran in 2014 to repeal the ACA and said "Give us the Senate and we'll do it" ...We gave them the Senate.
Republicans ran in 2016 to repeal the ACA and said "Give us the President and we'll do it" ...We gave them the President.
They gave us an ACA fix with a promise to repeal the ACA... We said no, that's not good enough.

Rand Paul has never lied to me... not once since I helped him get elected to the US Senate. I believe Rand Paul on the ACA.
Brussels has no skin in this game, and no say in this debate... we'll handle this one my friend.

 

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So you agree the GOP/Republicans have wasted 7 years correct? Excellent.

Unsure why Brussels suddenly gets thrown in, if I guess correctly about which Brussels you are talking about, can't really give them credit for lot of social programs...
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PS. I hear the GOP is angry at Mattis for picking carreer (military) men/woman for his Dep of Defence picks/vacancies instead of GOP affiliates. Guess only 1 fellow has the power to pull his own in, into the swamp that is . Remind me, howmany cabinet/senior staff positions could be shown to be "GOP-affilate"? Top of my head I recall Pence/Priebus/Chao/Perry, probably missed a few but I thing alot others were non-political ones (and not many with a relevant background either).

Mattis can hire anyone he wants... I'm GOP, and he hasn't ever lied to me either. I have complete confidence in his leadership. When Trump talked about "draining the swamp"... he was talking about Politicians and Lobbyists... not Billionaires and Generals. He's done a fantastic job.

 

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I mean that the GOP (or part of it) isn't happy he isn't dropping GOP-affiliates in key positions. I am praising him (and so were/are many Democrats) for actually doing his job to the best of his abilities and with knowledge of the ministry he governs.

"Draining the swamb" = "purge the Democrats", even the fellows who are just there by association. If every government is going to purge the entire former corps (regardless of appointment procedure, political or merit), you will see a less effective government alltogether with no long-term plans (or long-term plans that get scrapped the minute the regime changes).

Thusfar not many billionaires have done a stunning job at running a society, even less when they have no reighns to be reeled in with. You don't run a family as a business, why would you want to run an entire society as one?

[DarkFox]

 

Why wouldn't doctors be able to have private practices?

Private practice is freedom. They can do whatever they want, treat whoever they want, charge whatever they want, and get paid whichever way they want. Single payer will not pay them what they want... so they would only service the people that will pay them.

 

This is why the poor have such a hard time finding a doctor that will accept Medicaid. Very few doctors will put up with government limits, and they take forever to get paid. Medicaid fraud is all over the place as well. They charge the government for people they never treated, and for illness they never had. They believe it's justified because the government screws them over so bad for what they really do.

 

So when we have a single payer system, we would still have the problem of not enough care, and only the wealthy receiving the best. Government would have to step in and force them to do it... hence the law to abolish private practice. Great to hear you are only wanting a little Communism, but if you listen closely to Bernie Sanders and his followers, you will discover the screaming creatures I was talking about.

 

Rights are free, and no one has to be a government slave to supply them to anyone. You have the right to bear arms... but no one is required to give you a gun. You have the right to an attorney... but Public Defenders work for the people that will convict you. They will only tell you to keep quiet, and when they find you guilty, throw yourself on the mercy of the court. You have the right to life... no one can legally just kill you. You have freedom of speech... say whatever you want. The only thing that has cost is the soldiers that keep it that way.

 

But if you're hungry you go out and buy some food. If you want a place to live you have to buy a house or rent an apartment. If you want to get to work you must buy a bus pass, or buy a car. If you have a toe infection, you go to a doctor and pay him to prescribe you a cream... then you go to the pharmacy and pay them for the cream. All of this costs money... for you, and only you. You must pay for it. None of this is a right.

 

 

Most of your examples are based off of a current flawed system. Other countries where the government covers it do not have issues so why would we? We have more resources and ability than some of the countries that have had great success with it.

 

Fixing healthcare helps us all. If everyone goes to the doctor then it stops the spread of preventable diseases and possibly kills them off. Saying that the chronically ill and those who could never afford to just need to take care of themselves in a system that is designed against them is folly. While yes it will remove some freedoms I think that is a small sacrifice for the well being of others.

[Lysistrata]

AAAh the trickle down economics. Give me 1 economy where just trickle-down has made improvements. Every advancement of the lower/middle class has been thruw social reforms/programs, education is a prime example.

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Within 100 years we went from horseback to the moon... and it wasn't because of FDR's New Deal or Johnson's Great Society. Education is a total joke. If I asked a teenager today about the Cold War, they would think I was talking about the Ice Age movies. They can't write anymore, spell anymore, or even tell me who John F. Kennedy was.

So you agree the GOP/Republicans have wasted 7 years correct? Excellent.

Why would you think we're done? So we didn't like Ryan's ACA fix... it's still going down, and we will still change it.

If every government is going to purge the entire former corps (regardless of appointment procedure, political or merit), you will see a less effective government alltogether with no long-term plans (or long-term plans that get scrapped the minute the regime changes).

The first mistake Trump made was not immediately firing every Obama crony in the entire government when he took office. Some are still there. I would bring back firing squads... but I like eliminating problems over managing them.

While yes it will remove some freedoms I think that is a small sacrifice for the well being of others.

What you consider a "small sacrifice"... many others consider completely out of the question. We like our citizens, but we don't like them that much. This whole loving one another thing can work in songs, but in real life it's just bullshit.

[DarkFox]

What you consider a "small sacrifice"... many others consider completely out of the question. We like our citizens, but we don't like them that much. This whole loving one another thing can work in songs, but in real life it's just bullshit.

 

People once said that we would never fly. Real life is full of possibilities and the only ones holding ourselves back is ourselves. 

[Lysistrata]

People once said that we would never fly. Real life is full of possibilities and the only ones holding ourselves back is ourselves.

Write up your proposal and put this sentence at the end of it, right before your signature. Deliver it to your Congressman, and with some luck it could make it all the way to Trump's desk. If he signs it, and everything goes well for you, someone will be digging through the rubble one day and unearth a statue of you with this sentence carved in the stone. The great archaeological dig of the ruins of the once great Republic of the United States of America... and the only thing they will say about us is that we didn't last as long as the Romans.

[DarkFox]

 

People once said that we would never fly. Real life is full of possibilities and the only ones holding ourselves back is ourselves.

Write up your proposal and put this sentence at the end of it, right before your signature. Deliver it to your Congressman, and with some luck it could make it all the way to Trump's desk. If he signs it, and everything goes well for you, someone will be digging through the rubble one day and unearth a statue of you with this sentence carved in the stone. The great archaeological dig of the ruins of the once great Republic of the United States of America... and the only thing they will say about us is that we didn't last as long as the Romans.

 

 

That pessimism is what kept us in the dark ages for so long.

[Lysistrata]

In reality you would probably receive a reply, thanking you for your continued support. It would probably go on to explain that we have had planes flying all over for over 100 years, but we still don't impose a massive tax on the population so everyone can fly at anytime, wherever they want to go. No, we still have to buy a ticket.

[Blade 619]

As someone with a masters degree in health economics, this thread was hilarious. 

As a little light watching:

 

[Sister Midnight]

As someone with a masters degree in health economics, this thread was hilarious. 
As a little light watching:

 

If you put up a link I can't see it.

[DeathMerchant]

I've noticed Youtube links sometimes disappear once they get posted. They even disappear if they are Quoted, but they will show up if you use the Code Tag. If you have Mod Powers, you can find the URL link by clicking Edit on that User's post. I have reposted Blade's 2 video links below using the Code Tag.

 

Its possible something may have broken recently when we had our Forum problems. I'll PM Samus and ask him to take a look into it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSjGouBmo0M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbBKoyjFLUY

[Sister Midnight]

Thank you for that, DM.

Thank you Blade, for sharing actual pertinent info. No wonder I have such a wild crush on you!

I am curious, Blade 619, do you Brits have to wait for months on end in order to actually see a physician? Are you desperate to get to the US so that you and your mum can see one of our superior doctors? Will you be rushing here after you get your medical degree, so you can make more money than if you stay in your impoverished nation, slaving away under universal healthcare?

Ps: after you get here you will become a superior doctor, so think a little extra on that last question.

Edited by Sister Midnight, 28 March 2017 - 03:28 PM.

[Lysistrata]

All the Youtube vids disappeared for me. All that is there is a big blank space. I have to post them as a link now.

[Lysistrata]

Thank you Blade. This one is awesome... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSjGouBmo0M

It covers it all. Why do things cost so much? Because they can get it. Why do they want it? Greed.

The only way to control greed, without starting a war, is competition. Let's get started now.

[Blade 619]

Thank you for that, DM.

Thank you Blade, for sharing actual pertinent info. No wonder I have such a wild crush on you!

I am curious, Blade 619, do you Brits have to wait for months on end in order to actually see a physician? Are you desperate to get to the US so that you and your mum can see one of our superior doctors? Will you be rushing here after you get your medical degree, so you can make more money than if you stay in your impoverished nation, slaving away under universal healthcare?

Ps: after you get here you will become a superior doctor, so think a little extra on that last question.

 

I can see a specialist same day, if I need to, for free. If it doesn't need to be same day it'll depend on what I've got as to how urgent it is and how long it takes. If my hip's a bit of a pain it might take 6 months, if I've maybe got cancer it'll be presentation to starting therapy in less than 10 working days. Obviously anything with immediate threat to life is treated immediately.

 

Thank you Blade. This one is awesome... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSjGouBmo0M

It covers it all. Why do things cost so much? Because they can get it. Why do they want it? Greed.

The only way to control greed, without starting a war, is competition. Let's get started now.

No probs! I put both up as this one is pre-ACA and the other is post-ACA .

Competition can also drive up prices as well as drive down prices. Too much demand --> high price as people compete to purchase the service. However if service providers are competing then it drives it down... at least in the short term. As market theory goes to hell when applied to medical services the reality is that big companies can simply out compete the little guy, bankrupt them, and then exploit effective or total monopolies (as the large insurance firms in the US have done). It is then almost impossible for anyone to enter the market with an alternative except for governments or truly huge pre-existing companies (as seen with Virgin Care in the UK).

The most cost efficient system is centrally controlled healthcare, however the practicalities of this are a nightmare as Nigeria and Thailand both discovered and can only really work with a good network of primary healthcare providers (as in Thailand) as this is a significantly cheaper way of delivering healthcare than through hospitals and can treat the vast majority of problems people get. This is also the best way to control greed, assuming your government isn't massively corrupt, as your central purchasing board would have a huge amount of clout. The bonus feature of this, is that those who want to can buy private insurance or go out of pocket, to have private drugs / surgery and because there is always a free option these clinics have to price themselves much more competitively. I can get one done here for ~$15k (depending on exchange rate) compared to $33-44k in the states if I want it done next month, or I can wait for 6 months and have it done for free (you can even view it as a $15k tax rebate).

 

If I was an American I'd be really pissed off with the healthcare system, it's ridiculously expensive, horribly inefficient, and doesn't actually provide a better health outcome compared to other developed countries.



As you can see, you guys are a massive outlier.

An interesting case study to read is on Costa Rica, they completely revolutionised their healthcare system and now have a similar life expectancy to the US at a tiny tiny fraction of the cost.

Cuba has (sorry to say it again) a truly world class healthcare system. Their doctors are so looked after and plentiful, if they haven't seen someone for a while they go and find them to check they're ok. Hell... I'd love to have that luxury! Or to know that my doctor would gimme a call if I'd not been seen for a while to find out how I was doing, and screen for any underlying problems.

Basically, I love healthcare, I find it fascinating how different countries have tried (succeeded or failed as the case may be) to implement different systems and how individual politics can rip a fledgling system apart or force it through. How ambition to cure everyone has nearly bankrupted nations in some cases, and been highly successful in others. 

Fun story, Thailand was possibly the best country at dealing with HIV and managed to contain it almost exclusively to the high risk populations through incredibly diligent epidemiological work and preventative medicine. China on the other hand failed miserably at dealing with HIV with their hilarious notion that it was a disease of foreigners and Chinese people couldn't get it... I suppose an extreme version of how many communities in the west saw it as a gay man disease.

Anyway... I digress... Save money, upscale public healthcare and cut public subsidies to private healthcare. 

Don't get me wrong, it's great place to live if you've got bottomless wallets.

[DarkFox]

The only way to control greed, without starting a war, is competition. Let's get started now.

 

 

The big companies have agreements with each other to stay out of each other's pockets. For example with internet service providers; They team up against the little guy, and agree on charging the same or similar amounts. Competition is only good when it is actually competition.

[Lysistrata]

I believe life expectancy is more affected by diet... most of us Americans eat tons of beef and drink sugar with everything. My wife decided a couple months ago to change things up, and I went along to support her. Just changing from beef to chicken and salmon, and changing Coca Cola to unsweetened tea... I have dropped 15 pounds and I have changed nothing else. Still smiling

[Lysistrata]

The big companies have agreements with each other to stay out of each other's pockets. For example with internet service providers; They team up against the little guy, and agree on charging the same or similar amounts. Competition is only good when it is actually competition.

You are correct Sir. This is why we need to break down the protection barriers they have put up. Allow insurance to be purchased from any company that offers it, rather than the few that are in your area. If we could drive the costs down enough, it may be possible to question why we need to buy insurance at all. The insurance could become more expensive than just paying for it yourself when you have a problem. We will get this worked out... because we really don't have a choice anymore.

[Blade 619]

I believe life expectancy is more affected by diet... most of us Americans eat tons of beef and drink sugar with everything. My wife decided a couple months ago to change things up, and I went along to support her. Just changing from beef to chicken and salmon, and changing Coca Cola to unsweetened tea... I have dropped 15 pounds and I have changed nothing else. Still smiling

 

For most countries the biggest impact on life expectancy were the big sanitation projects and reducing child mortality rates with primary prevention such as reducing poverty, allowing contraception/abortion, good maternal health, childhood vaccinations, educating people so they can eat well and get good jobs. The Infant mortality rate (deaths under the age of 1)  typically does a lot to drag a country down (as you need a lot of people to love to 90 to counter the death of 1 newborn, in the USA it is similar to that of Serbia and Croatia, well over twice that of the top 10 sadly, so a lot of room for improvement... and that is usually associated with the poorer rural and urban communities unable to access ± afford maternal and neonatal healthcare. 

 

Diet and exercise are indeed very important for reducing things like heart disease which is the largest killer in the developed western world, but typically not until into your 60's and 70's even if you fuck things up fairly badly. As you have found out... the diet many of us eat in the West is bollocks compared to what we actually need... and when moving towards that we can lose weight and improve physical fitness quickly. (Primary example, it obviously reduces the risk of a lot of other things we get down the line including cancer and dementia.)

 

The big companies have agreements with each other to stay out of each other's pockets. For example with internet service providers; They team up against the little guy, and agree on charging the same or similar amounts. Competition is only good when it is actually competition.

You are correct Sir. This is why we need to break down the protection barriers they have put up. Allow insurance to be purchased from any company that offers it, rather than the few that are in your area. If we could drive the costs down enough, it may be possible to question why we need to buy insurance at all. The insurance could become more expensive than just paying for it yourself when you have a problem. We will get this worked out... because we really don't have a choice anymore.

 

 

x2

Or you know... have a sensible base level government plan people can buy into which gives some serious competition and potentially an additional source of revenue for federal budgets as they would also no longer have to subsidise healthcare plans from private brokers.