101 replies to this topic

[Lysistrata]

For most countries the biggest impact on life expectancy were the big sanitation projects and reducing child mortality rates with primary prevention such as reducing poverty, allowing contraception/abortion, good maternal health, childhood vaccinations, educating people so they can eat well and get good jobs.

Oh man... this will be the next ads I see on TV... "Want to live longer? Get an abortion! Support Planned Parenthood!!!" 

[Blade 619]

 

For most countries the biggest impact on life expectancy were the big sanitation projects and reducing child mortality rates with primary prevention such as reducing poverty, allowing contraception/abortion, good maternal health, childhood vaccinations, educating people so they can eat well and get good jobs.

Oh man... this will be the next ads I see on TV... "Want to live longer? Get an abortion! Support Planned Parenthood!!!" 

 

 

Haha... sadly doesn't work quite like that xD

[Lysistrata]

Haha... sadly doesn't work quite like that xD

Of course it doesn't... but sadly this is how things like this are sold.

 

Jonathan Gruber, a primary architect of the ACA, famously said that the ACA was deliberately written in "a tortured way" to disguise the fact that it creates a system by which "healthy people pay in and sick people get money". He said his obfuscation was needed due to the "stupidity of the American voter" in ensuring the bill's passage. So, because they lie... we have this pile of shit.

 

The truth has never gotten in the way of Progressives getting what they want.

[DarkFox]

 

The big companies have agreements with each other to stay out of each other's pockets. For example with internet service providers; They team up against the little guy, and agree on charging the same or similar amounts. Competition is only good when it is actually competition.

You are correct Sir. This is why we need to break down the protection barriers they have put up. Allow insurance to be purchased from any company that offers it, rather than the few that are in your area. If we could drive the costs down enough, it may be possible to question why we need to buy insurance at all. The insurance could become more expensive than just paying for it yourself when you have a problem. We will get this worked out... because we really don't have a choice anymore.

 

 

I completely agree.

[Blade 619]

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09RvU9_m30Q

[onbekende]

Must say Blade, the analogy of mobile phone plan vs health insurance is nicely put. People already have issues hovering a couple numbers (monthly $$, call minutes, MB data, ...) to one has to wonder what it does with health insurance.

 

Hence I like the Belgian system. You are mandated to get basic health insurance which has strict rules and is virtual equal wherever you take it. You can expand that as you see fit, for example with hospital insurance (for instance being covered for a single room, ...)

 

 

 

AAAh the trickle down economics. Give me 1 economy where just trickle-down has made improvements. Every advancement of the lower/middle class has been thruw social reforms/programs, education is a prime example.

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Within 100 years we went from horseback to the moon... and it wasn't because of FDR's New Deal or Johnson's Great Society. Education is a total joke. If I asked a teenager today about the Cold War, they would think I was talking about the Ice Age movies. They can't write anymore, spell anymore, or even tell me who John F. Kennedy was.

 

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While I can rave about education aswell, neither claim it didn't do a thing nor try and state its absolute waste. It has given oppertunity to the masses for a better life, a life outside their "birthright" as so many conservatives aim to uphold for everyone.
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So you agree the GOP/Republicans have wasted 7 years correct? Excellent.

Why would you think we're done? So we didn't like Ryan's ACA fix... it's still going down, and we will still change it.

 

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Again, I am merely stating that for the better part of 8y of Obama the Republicans (of any denomination under that banner) haven't come forth with a plan that was both decent AND broadly supported.

Much moaning and pointing of deficiency's? Sure!

Fixes? LOLNO.
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If every government is going to purge the entire former corps (regardless of appointment procedure, political or merit), you will see a less effective government alltogether with no long-term plans (or long-term plans that get scrapped the minute the regime changes).

The first mistake Trump made was not immediately firing every Obama crony in the entire government when he took office. Some are still there. I would bring back firing squads... but I like eliminating problems over managing them.

 

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Excellent, government by feuding sides. Whats next, break the nation in 2 and relocate everyone to there "respective" sides? History has shown this leads to enemies for enternity (with nukes!)
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While yes it will remove some freedoms I think that is a small sacrifice for the well being of others.

What you consider a "small sacrifice"... many others consider completely out of the question. We like our citizens, but we don't like them that much. This whole loving one another thing can work in songs, but in real life it's just bullshit.

 

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Guess you can't give what you don't want to receive in the first place...

Libertarians on islands, thats your utopia I guess?
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Rights are free, and no one has to be a government slave to supply them to anyone. You have the right to bear arms... but no one is required to give you a gun. You have the right to an attorney... but Public Defenders work for the people that will convict you. They will only tell you to keep quiet, and when they find you guilty, throw yourself on the mercy of the court. You have the right to life... no one can legally just kill you. You have freedom of speech... say whatever you want. The only thing that has cost is the soldiers that keep it that way.

But if you're hungry you go out and buy some food. If you want a place to live you have to buy a house or rent an apartment. If you want to get to work you must buy a bus pass, or buy a car. If you have a toe infection, you go to a doctor and pay him to prescribe you a cream... then you go to the pharmacy and pay them for the cream. All of this costs money... for you, and only you. You must pay for it. None of this is a right.

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Rights are given, they are earned and foremost: they should be without reservation.

You just want individual rights, but completely miss the rights of a society.

All the rights you currently posses are onces that have been granted/given/earned by you, most by simply being a citizen of the US. You talk as like nature itself has given you these "rights", or perhaps God himself?

Your own example is the right to a fair hearing/due process, by which extention the government supplies an attorney to those that can't afford them. In which manner is a "right to health" with a government supported healthcare system for the poor any difference from your "roght to a fair hearing"? Are you gonna complain now that poor people shouldn't get a pro-deo attorney cause it costs you $$? Perhaps we should re-start issueing fireprotection licenses and only the people who paid for them get support from the fire department?

You have reached a point in which you find something not a right. This is a fair stance and can be debated and put to a vote by society. Just know that the group of society who wishes to vote FOR this right is ever growing, eventually the right will be passed completely, as has every right you currently have in the past.

What your side needs to do is find a middle ground, a compromise, a agreed opun right supported by the majority. The current back-and-forth is a clear indication that many politicians have come to this view of compromise. But the stance to outright deny it has long lost its large numbers of supporters.
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Thank you Blade. This one is awesome... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSjGouBmo0M
It covers it all. Why do things cost so much? Because they can get it. Why do they want it? Greed.
The only way to control greed, without starting a war, is competition. Let's get started now.

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So you'd love government interference to break up monopoly's I guess?

So you'd love a society which shuns those that seek personal riches before societal gain?
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I believe life expectancy is more affected by diet... most of us Americans eat tons of beef and drink sugar with everything. My wife decided a couple months ago to change things up, and I went along to support her. Just changing from beef to chicken and salmon, and changing Coca Cola to unsweetened tea... I have dropped 15 pounds and I have changed nothing else. Still smiling

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Europe has fat while USA has sugar as main obecity cause. Main cause being society's evolution
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Haha... sadly doesn't work quite like that xD

Of course it doesn't... but sadly this is how things like this are sold.

Jonathan Gruber, a primary architect of the ACA, famously said that the ACA was deliberately written in "a tortured way" to disguise the fact that it creates a system by which "healthy people pay in and sick people get money". He said his obfuscation was needed due to the "stupidity of the American voter" in ensuring the bill's passage. So, because they lie... we have this pile of shit.

The truth has never gotten in the way of Progressives getting what they want.

 

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For one stupid group to the next my friend, from 1 mindless mass to the next.

[onbekende]

So the noble Republicans are sacrificing themselfes for the public by excempting themselfes from the AHCA/Trumpcare/Ryancare and giving themselfes and their staff the ability to stay on ACA/Obamacare.

 

It is my understanding that enough noise has been made already to have this alinea/line voided from the bill proposed, but it was still there first >_>

[Lysistrata]

"If you like your ObamaCare, you can keep your ObamaCare"

 

I brought this option up months ago. It doesn't repeal the ACA, but it gives the States the option to apply for waivers to opt out of it. They will naturally opt out of it, and this will speed up the collapse of the ACA.

 

Vox is fake news dude... it's the lefts version of InfoWars. No Republican wants to keep the ACA, so the spin that they are wanting to "exempt themselves" is absurd... they just don't want to be blamed for people losing their insurance. Thinking back, no one cared about how many people lost their insurance when they passed this garbage in 2010... so I personally have no problem kicking people off insurance they obviously can't afford to pay for.

 

Try reading The Hill... they are still a lefty news source, but they try to keep things believable. I still think they will have trouble getting this passed, and the ACA is doomed to collapse under it's own weight. Democrats will go down with the Titanic.

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/330681-freedom-caucus-endorses-revised-obamacare-repeal-bill

[onbekende]

They are basically allowing it to sink so they can stand by the side pointing-and-laughing. Only some republican states have voiced a desire to sink part of the ACA money (federal money!), heck the amount of people who will just be kicked off healthcare due to removing restrictions on pre-existing conditions alone is mindboggling. And what about premiums going to the roof even for people with mild or common pre-excisting conditions, like having given birth (+425%)?

 

I feel that might seem malicious, no? For all the faith you guys have in Christ, you sure don't like society.

[Lysistrata]

They are basically allowing it to sink so they can stand by the side pointing-and-laughing. Only some republican states have voiced a desire to sink part of the ACA money (federal money!), heck the amount of people who will just be kicked off healthcare due to removing restrictions on pre-existing conditions alone is mindboggling. And what about premiums going to the roof even for people with mild or common pre-excisting conditions, like having given birth (+425%)?

 

I feel that might seem malicious, no? For all the faith you guys have in Christ, you sure don't like society.

I assume that you mean Republicans are allowing it to sink... take off your rose colored glasses and see things clearly. Republicans have never supported the ACA. Not a single Republican has ever voted for the ACA. Democrats created the ACA, and ever since, they have been kicked out of power at every level of Government. They lost the House, the Senate, the President, and the Supreme Court. If the USA wanted to keep the ACA, they would have kept the Democrats in power to continue throwing money at the problem. Every single Republican wants the ACA gone. The only issue, is how it will be eliminated.

 

This is an American problem, and us Americans will take care of it, and Christ doesn't have anything to do with it.

[onbekende]

As long as informed decisions are made, sure. Sadly this hasn't happended, nor would I call the Republican take-over of Washington related to the ACA directly.

 

The switch was fortold, the voyage itself littered with good intentions while the end result showed just how divided your nation is. You probably will refute all those polls that state that the ACA has a majority in favour. This is what we would call "throwing the child with the bathwater", trying to pull a clean slate motivated by rhetoric on both sides.

 

I have always been for adjustments, for slow and calculated evolution, for conservatism in it's truest form (to keep the present, not to revert to the past). The ACA was something I could catagorize as overzealous, as to far reaching, to fast, to big of a change. But now just going to a "lets kill it with fire" mentality is idiotic at best. Malicious at worst.

[Sister Midnight]

At the moment Obamacare is more popular than Donald. Don's and the republican approach to replacing The Affordable Care Act (aka Obamacare) has been a massive failure. I am very concerned about our well-being.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/28/politics/obama-trump-100-days-obamacare/index.html?sr=fbCNN042817obama-trump-100-days-obamacare0625PMVODtopLink&linkId=37003296

Now I want to be very clear on this, I always root for America to succeed. I have been appalled by the self defeating rhetoric that I heard from certain Americans during Obama's term. I wish Don had proved me wrong in my opinion of him. I find this administration to be brutally depressing and soul crushing.

[Lysistrata]

At the moment Obamacare is more popular than Donald.

So you want to believe the same polling that said Hillary was gonna win by a landslide? I don't believe anything they say anymore. Naturally the single payer crowd that has hated ObamaCare for years will jump on the bandwagon to oppose Trump. None the less, something better be done soon. The ACA will collapse when they shut the money off... and Republicans will never pass single payer... so what's the plan? Do you just want to wait for another Democrat super majority?

[Sister Midnight]

At the moment Obamacare is more popular than Donald.

So you want to believe the same polling that said Hillary was gonna win by a landslide? I don't believe anything they say anymore. Naturally the single payer crowd that has hated ObamaCare for years will jump on the bandwagon to oppose Trump. None the less, something better be done soon. The ACA will collapse when they shut the money off... and Republicans will never pass single payer... so what's the plan? Do you just want to wait for another Democrat super majority?

What I want is for people to start thinking of a greater good. The ACA has flaws. I don't dispute that. Why not try to fix the flaws instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. A lot of Republicans think the best approach is to be completely inflexible. In my experience that is a recipe for failure.

[Sister Midnight]

Double post.

[Lysistrata]

What I want is for people to start thinking of a greater good. The ACA has flaws. I don't dispute that. Why not try to fix the flaws instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. A lot of Republicans think the best approach is to be completely inflexible. In my experience that is a recipe for failure.

Okay... you want people to start thinking of a "greater good". What you need to understand first is your idea of a greater good is not the only version of what people believe is a greater good. I trust that you know your idea of what a greater good is... is vastly different than my idea of a greater good, and you feel your idea of a greater good has some kind of moral high ground... that it somehow is more relevant, and carries more weight, than anyone else. This is why Donald Trump won the election. We're sick of elitist snobs telling us how to live, and what we should care about. We choose to make those decisions ourselves.

 

Really? The baby with the bathwater cliche? Double face palm. There is no baby in this bathwater. The flaw with the ACA is that it attempts to change insurance companies into just an industry that pays for people's healthcare. When you prohibit insurance companies from denying coverage to people that have preexisting conditions, it is no longer insurance. It's like crashing your car first and then calling up Geico to get them to pay for it... it's never gonna happen.

 

I find it hard to believe that we are wasting so much time and money on medicine for a few million people, most of which are already on Medicaid. There are 325 million people living in the USA, and the vast majority were doing just fine before throwing everything into hell over this mess. Expand Medicaid all you want... I don't care... just leave me, and my insurance, alone.

 

You call Republicans "completely inflexible". Do you remember who was inflexible when we were telling them this would fail? Do you remember when they thought they could "fix it" as it failed, and they would never lose power? I can't help but see just how wrong the so called educated, elitist, "we know so much more than you" party has been... and we have just begun. Many more 100's of days coming... Change we can believe in!

[Sister Midnight]

What I want is for people to start thinking of a greater good. The ACA has flaws. I don't dispute that. Why not try to fix the flaws instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. A lot of Republicans think the best approach is to be completely inflexible. In my experience that is a recipe for failure.

Okay... you want people to start thinking of a "greater good". What you need to understand first is your idea of a greater good is not the only version of what people believe is a greater good. I trust that you know your idea of what a greater good is... is vastly different than my idea of a greater good, and you feel your idea of a greater good has some kind of moral high ground... that it somehow is more relevant, and carries more weight, than anyone else. This is why Donald Trump won the election. We're sick of elitist snobs telling us how to live, and what we should care about. We choose to make those decisions ourselves.

Really? The baby with the bathwater cliche? Double face palm. There is no baby in this bathwater. The flaw with the ACA is that it attempts to change insurance companies into just an industry that pays for people's healthcare. When you prohibit insurance companies from denying coverage to people that have preexisting conditions, it is no longer insurance. It's like crashing your car first and then calling up Geico to get them to pay for it... it's never gonna happen.

I find it hard to believe that we are wasting so much time and money on medicine for a few million people, most of which are already on Medicaid. There are 325 million people living in the USA, and the vast majority were doing just fine before throwing everything into hell over this mess. Expand Medicaid all you want... I don't care... just leave me, and my insurance, alone.

You call Republicans "completely inflexible". Do you remember who was inflexible when we were telling them this would fail? Do you remember when they thought they could "fix it" as it failed, and they would never lose power? I can't help but see just how wrong the so called educated, elitist, "we know so much more than you" party has been... and we have just begun. Many more 100's of days coming... Change we can believe in!

No. I don't remember things the way you do. But I see no point in arguing facts vs. alternative facts.

I think you should remember that when enough people suffer enough, history has shown that they rise up and riot, sometimes toppling governments. That almost happened n the USA during the Great Depression, but Roosevelt created welfare to soothe the starving masses. I bring this up to make a point about the greater good. Now, before you get your panties in a bunch and start twisting my words, I will clarify my point. You, Lys, are better off being in a society of people who aren't in dire straights. Keep reading, I will illustrate: when people are desperate they do desperate things and you may be the victim of their desperation. The person who's child or spouse is sick and can't afford medicine, is much more likely to commit a crime to get the medicine than if they can afford the medicine. You, or a loved one, may be on the recieving end of a desperate person's actions. It is in your best interest for that person to not be desperate. The greater good partially means that you and your loved ones are less likely to be crime victims s because there are fewer people who are desperate. There are many more reasons why you, and most everyone is better off in a country with universal healthcare, but I suspect this is the only reason that might resonate with you. Even as I write this I am pretty sure I cannot say anything that will resonate with you, but I'm giving it a try.

I realize I cannot change your mind about anything, and I realize you will cherry pick whatever you like from my remarks, mock me, and ignore the whole message if it doesn't suit you. I realize that things are black and white for you, you are immutable and incapable of disagreeing while engaging in polite discourse. Maybe I'll continue participating in this thread, maybe not, I'm limited in my ability to engage with immutable thinkers in this kind of environment, and for my own good (and perhaps for your good, as well - look, another greater good!) I may bow out. Depends on my mood.

[Lysistrata]

Do you even think about your solutions before you legislate them on the public? No one is gonna break into my house to get medicine. They would break into my house to steal what I have, and it's not because they need insulin... it's because they are criminals. No one in this country goes without healthcare... they always get treatment. They just don't always want to pay for it. So in your logic, we must give our hard earned money to people that don't want to work for it... or we must face their wrath?

 

This is right up there with the fake argument that "Sanctuary Cities" create an atmosphere for illegals to be able to openly report crimes. No illegal will ever place themselves at risk of discovery by ever talking to any authority for the benefit of anyone else. They steal Social Security numbers to work here. They are already guilty of felony identity theft just by collecting a paycheck, and you think they are gonna become material witness to any criminal activity? This is not even in the realm of reality. So we must allow criminals to be criminals because we fear being a victim of their crime? The more attitudes turn this direction, the more Smith and Wesson will be our solution. The big difference is ours is Constitutional.

[Sister Midnight]

No one would break into your house for medicine, they'd held you or your loved one and take your money to buy medicine, though.

You are shockingly ignorant about a lot of things. As for "no one in this country goes without healthcare...". When I couldn't get insurance I delayed treatment for various medical issues, as did my husband.. Lucky for me I had insurance from ACA when I developed a condition that was quite serious. Thank God I had the ACA when I needed emergency surgery, I had several surgeries in the past few years, I'd be near bankruptcy without the ACA. One medical problem would have killed me if I had delayed treatment, and as I said I as delaying treatments when I had no insurance. I wouldn't expect you to have compassion for someone suffering from major depressive disorder, but I of know someone who almost committed suicide because he was depressed and he couldn't afford his antidepressant medication because he had no insurance.

[Lysistrata]

I used to play Black Jack a lot. Whenever I got a Black Jack, it pays one and a half times your bet, which means they paid part of the win with Kennedy head fifty cent pieces. I saved them to send to my daughter when she needed help. I had about $600.00 worth in a thick red crystal bowl when I left for California for a couple days. When I got home a window was shattered and the only thing missing in the entire house was that bowl. Fingerprints led the cops to a meth head next door... the only thing I got back was the bowl. So I guess he robbed me for his medicine.

 

My wife's best friend came down to visit about 10 years ago. They were down at the Strip, and she suddenly fainted and hit the concrete. The Paramedics took her to the hospital. She didn't have insurance, and told them so, and they said don't worry about it. They kept her in the hospital for 3 days, ran every test, and hooked her up to every machine. They cut her loose and told her to be careful. After she got home she received a bill for $10,000.00... like I said, no one is ever refused treatment in this country. The ACA was the way they got paid for your treatment. If you didn't have it, they still would have treated you. The way you talk about the ACA, it's like we lived in the dark ages before Obama came along and saved the world. We got along just fine without him.

 

Anyone who thinks so little of their life that they want to die... I say climb up someplace really high, and land on something really hard. I am done with anyone that can't handle living, and I don't see anything positive about dragging anyone through the most amazing gift anyone can ever experience. I know when I'm done on this planet... I will miss all this.