101 replies to this topic

[Sister Midnight]

You must be right.

[onbekende]

Lys is with the "personal responsibility" crowd, coupled with the "you shall not infringe on our honor" crowd.

 

Let him be the libertarian he wants to be, cause funnely enough no liberal has yet made his life a living hell for it. Nor has it happended visa versa.

 

As always, the silent majority holds the true middle ground and peace, the people shouting an either side of their imaginary ravine are the real issue.

[Lysistrata]

Let him be the libertarian he wants to be

I just don't believe I could have gone another day without permission from the elite Europeans.

Thank you so much, I feel so much better now. Like I'm suddenly well rested... oh wait... I just woke up, so forget it. 

[Sister Midnight]

Betsy, you are so lovely!

[onbekende]

 

Let him be the libertarian he wants to be

I just don't believe I could have gone another day without permission from the elite Europeans.

Thank you so much, I feel so much better now. Like I'm suddenly well rested... oh wait... I just woke up, so forget it. 

 

 

Says the nation still holding the largest wars in the name of a diety. Still holding society in the balance over said diety. Perhaps try following the larger part of the world that considers society to be for its inhabitants rather for bragging rights against some obscure "greatest of them all" race you folks just love to spout.

 

If their is 1 nation in the world that decided the horse was theirs to sit on, it was the US.

 

 

anyway...

 

I thought I heared there would be budget approval coming up in Congress, whats the story on that?

[Sister Midnight]

 

Let him be the libertarian he wants to be

I just don't believe I could have gone another day without permission from the elite Europeans.
Thank you so much, I feel so much better now. Like I'm suddenly well rested... oh wait... I just woke up, so forget it. 
 

 
Says the nation still holding the largest wars in the name of a diety. Still holding society in the balance over said diety. Perhaps try following the larger part of the world that considers society to be for its inhabitants rather for bragging rights against some obscure "greatest of them all" race you folks just love to spout.
 
If their is 1 nation in the world that decided the horse was theirs to sit on, it was the US.
 
 
anyway...
 
I thought I heard there would be budget approval coming up in Congress, whats the story on that?

I'm watching the budget approval process with great interest. As I read recently, it doesn't look like it will go smoothly.

With regard to your remarks about religion in this country, It is sadly ironic that many "deeply religious," so called Christians ignore many of the basic tenants of their own religion in their efforts to impose their greedy will upon the USA. Doesn't the Bible tell us that Jesus healed the poor? That obviously means he wants all Christians to support universal healthcare. It's rather unpious to oppose programs that help the poor, isn't it? Not that I judge anyone based on their religion, but I notice a lot of hypocrisy with regard to their political stances.

[Lysistrata]

I thought I heared there would be budget approval coming up in Congress, whats the story on that?

They passed a week CR, but I don't see why this matters to you. I doubt climate change or foreign aid will be on the top of the list. The Democrats are threatening to shut down the Government for any possible reason because they think Republicans will be blamed for it, but everybody is quite aware of what they are doing, so it won't work. As long as Donald keeps saying the wall will be built he will be fine. Everyone can see it's not his fault it's not going forward. Illegal immigration has dropped 70% since he has been President... the law is being enforced, and they are all getting deported now. Sanctuary cities went crying to the 9th Circuit to save them from the dirty Feds, but they will lose at the Supreme Court, so that's just delaying the inevitable.

 

I can't see a game plan for Democrats that will do anything except make a lot of people really mad at them. Everything Trump is doing, he campaigned relentlessly on, and he won by a large margin. The ACA will go down, and the tax reform will get done. Republicans will debate it all, but it will get done. They know if they don't do it, they will be replaced with someone else who will. Democrats are praying for failure, and taking back the House, but this is Donald Trump, and failure is not an acceptable option.

 

Which brings me to what Democrats will run on? Except their hatred for the President. They already lost on all of their issues, and it gets worse when all of those issues are all improving under a new President. What will they run on? Immigration? Healthcare? Economy? Guns? Terrorism? It's all getting better. They can always try again on Cap and Trade... that worked out well. What will not work is trying to somehow shame Christians into supporting a party that loves abortion, and hates Israel. Maybe that Russian thing will stick? All I can say is Good Luck.

[onbekende]

Still gonna blame Democrats when you folks run the trifecta? (WH, Senate, House) For all the "old records" you blame the Dems for playing, your side sure likes to play this one till it's dust.

 

It doesn't directly matters to me in as much as I don't want to see any nation going into shutdown and millions of governmental workers getting send home without pay (which wouldn't happen in many other nations during a shutdown, you folks do weird things). Sure I am saddened by some cuts to science in general, enviroment in particular. Then again I never really banked much hope on the US being at the forefront of that endeavour.

 

Last I heared you had an issue between "no extra $$ for gov!" and Trump's "we need to pya upfront for the wall" swing after he found out directly taxing Meixcan imports might be detrimental to US family income.

[DeathMerchant]

 

With regard to your remarks about religion in this country, It is sadly ironic that many "deeply religious," so called Christians ignore many of the basic tenants of their own religion in their efforts to impose their greedy will upon the USA. Doesn't the Bible tell us that Jesus healed the poor? That obviously means he wants all Christians to support universal healthcare. It's rather unpious to oppose programs that help the poor, isn't it? Not that I judge anyone based on their religion, but I notice a lot of hypocrisy with regard to their political stances.

 

Stating that Jesus wanted Government Operated Universal Healthcare is a rather large stretch... You have to remember the superpower of the day was Rome, not exactly on friendly terms with the Jewish people and rebellions were being fought against the Romans. Throughout the Bible, Regional Governments and massive Empires, rose and fell and putting your
trust in the whatever current Government existed in that specific time frame wasn't exactly top in God's teachings. However, God does instruct Christians to respect the Government in its authoritative capacity, Mark 12:17 says,

 

 

Then Jesus said to them, "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." And they were amazed at him."

But as far as I am aware, no references are ever made to utilize the Government as an entity to help those who cannot help themselves, or in some cases, help those who refuse to help themselves.

 

But God does indeed instruct us to feed and cloth the poor.

1 John 3:17

If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person?

 

Proverbs 19:17

Whoever is kind to the poor lends to the Lord , and he will reward them for what they have done.

 

James 2:8

Yes indeed, it is good when you truly obey our Lord's command, "You must love and help your neighbors just as much as you love and take care of yourself."

 

James 2:14-17

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

 

John 3:11

John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”

 

Notice the trend in all of these versus. None of them have any context of using Government as a means of charity. Its not hard to see this is supposed to happen on an individual level. I for instance occasionally volunteer my time or donate clothes, money, food, reading material, furniture, etc... I will even offer a decent paying job position (one with good upward and lateral mobility) to those in need (surprisingly I get the job offer turned down the most for some bizarre reason. I have a theory but that is a discussion for another time...). On my end, I feel like I mostly do my part. I could always give more to charity and those in need, and if I feel like it then I do. What I don't need is the Government mandating a bloated and horribly written piece of legislature that tells me I have to pay an insanely high cost to receive the exact same (or receive worse) service. In which I am told I have to personally pay this extra cost, because others can't or choose not to pay.

 

I know you already explained your issue with acquiring health care due to pre existing conditions. But you have to realize you fell within a very small pool of the US population. Prior to the ACA, health care insurance was a pain to deal with but for the most part the system worked. It was one of those things that worked for like 95% (I don't know the exact number) of the population, and only 5% (again I don't know the real number) of the population had problems with the system. Well the ACA comes along and makes the 95% of Americans who were okay with the current system, lose their current health insurance, or if they did get to keep it, double their Premium, triple their Deductible, and double their Co Pay, all in the name of tailoring to the incredibly small 5% of the population. The majority of that 5% which I can assure you is not even close to financially contributing toward their medical expenses.

 

This is the TLDR version I give people:

Heath insurance used to suck but it mostly worked for the wide majority.

ACA made health insurance suck even harder because it now makes the wide majority, cater to the slim minority.

Which doesn't make any logical sense because we're going to screw over everyone just to help a small handful of people.

 

I should also note you can't really cherry pick certain parts of the Bible. Unless you study the Bible and actually contemplate what versus mean in the entirety of their context, it is impossible to reach an accurate, well structured, and solid interpretation. This is why I have never attempted to interpret the Torah or Koran. I simply have not devoted the time and resources necessary to adequately understand its message and teachings. Nor have I ever skimmed a scientific publication and pulled some random sentence and proclaimed that as absolute truth. You can't draw an adequate conclusion without having read and fully comprehending the entire thing. Now I could be wrong, and you could indeed be an individual who has spent sufficient time studying Biblical passages, but I highly doubt that. Not meaning any offense of course, but you do not strike me as one to regularly study the Bible.

 

It all boils down to this. Don't quote scripture if you yourself don't live it. Matthew 7:3 tells us

"Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"

Non Christians are quick to call out 1 line of Scripture when it suits their agenda and proclaim that Christians need to act or live this way because it is written in the Bible. But non Christians forget they themselves aren't practicing the other 99.999% of what the Bible teaches us. That alone practically invalidates any argument by non Christians against Christianity. You can still make the argument, but the message carries much less weight to the people you are telling it to.

 

 

 

What will they run on? Immigration? Healthcare? Economy? Guns? Terrorism? It's all getting better. They can always try again on Cap and Trade... that worked out well. What will not work is trying to somehow shame Christians into supporting a party that loves abortion, and hates Israel. Maybe that Russian thing will stick? All I can say is Good Luck.

 

I have no idea what they will choose as a platform for 2018 and 2020. Instead of changing tactics, Democrats seem firmly planted in the same place, or are moving even farther to the left on issues. Given the results of the 2016 election, if the current Democrat strategy is used in 2018, Democrats will miss many opportunities to pick up Congressional Seats. A strategy which has already cost them dearly. As the Republicans control the Presidency, Senate, historic record number in the House, and the Supreme Court. Kennedy is considering possible retirement this summer, which means Trump will get another replacement. And with Ruth Ginsburg looking like she passed away 5 years ago, I don't expect her to live beyond another 5 years. So Trump may very well get another pick. Republicans also control a large majority of State Governors + State Legislators.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/11/us/elections/state-legislature-change-in-control.html?_r=0

[onbekende]

So I got some more insight into the budget debate:

 

- 28th April: 1 week extension granted (till 5th of May)

- A bipartisan draft has been issued, totalling 1000 billion is extra funds spread between: military, border security, healthcare. It would extend the deadline till the end of September.

 

Both sides get a slice, both sides have to swallow something they didn't want. This would taken power away from the "wall now!" and "no $$ for gov!" crowds if the bipartisan gets followed thruw. A true compromise effort if I ever saw one!

 

Clearly lacking: $$ for wall and cuts to tax rates. Thou the WH has stated that Trump might not veto something lacking it.

 

-----

 

As for the healthcare thing, you fools are still paying logs for days while nations in western europe are footing 2x4's.

 

Perhaps notice this discrepency, it shows it jumping up at the Carter term limit, get stiffled in Reagan's first term but damn did it skyrocket in his second term! More funnyness is the apparent flatline with Clinton (what happended there?), the rocket going of under Bush Jr., some more flatline, something we would call an exponentional growth in Bush Jr's second term and another flatline when Obama rises to power.

[Sister Midnight]

With regard to your remarks about religion in this country, It is sadly ironic that many "deeply religious," so called Christians ignore many of the basic tenants of their own religion in their efforts to impose their greedy will upon the USA. Doesn't the Bible tell us that Jesus healed the poor? That obviously means he wants all Christians to support universal healthcare. It's rather unpious to oppose programs that help the poor, isn't it? Not that I judge anyone based on their religion, but I notice a lot of hypocrisy with regard to their political stances.

Stating that Jesus wanted Government Operated Universal Healthcare is a rather large stretch... You have to remember the superpower of the day was Rome, not exactly on friendly terms with the Jewish people and rebellions were being fought against the Romans. Throughout the Bible, Regional Governments and massive Empires, rose and fell and putting your
trust in the whatever current Government existed in that specific time frame wasn't exactly top in God's teachings. However, God does instruct Christians to respect the Government in its authoritative capacity, Mark 12:17 says,..

I know you already explained your issue with acquiring health care due to pre existing conditions. But you have to realize you fell within a very small pool of the US population. Prior to the ACA, health care insurance was a pain to deal with but for the most part the system worked. It was one of those things that worked for like 95% (I don't know the exact number) of the population, and only 5% (again I don't know the real number) of the population had problems with the system. Well the ACA comes along and makes the 95% of Americans who were okay with the current system, lose their current health insurance, or if they did get to keep it, double their Premium, triple their Deductible, and double their Co Pay, all in the name of tailoring to the incredibly small 5% of the population. The majority of that 5% which I can assure you is not even close to financially contributing toward their medical expenses....

I should also note you can't really cherry pick certain parts of the Bible. Unless you study the Bible and actually contemplate what versus mean in the entirety of their context, it is impossible to reach an accurate, well structured, and solid interpretation. This is why I have never attempted to interpret the Torah or Koran. I simply have not devoted the time and resources necessary to adequately understand its message and teachings. Nor have I ever skimmed a scientific publication and pulled some random sentence and proclaimed that as absolute truth. You can't draw an adequate conclusion without having read and fully comprehending the entire thing. Now I could be wrong, and you could indeed be an individual who has spent sufficient time studying Biblical passages, but I highly doubt that. Not meaning any offense of course, but you do not strike me as one to regularly study the Bible.

It all boils down to this. Don't quote scripture if you yourself don't live it. Matthew 7:3 tells us

"Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"

Non Christians are quick to call out 1 line of Scripture when it suits their agenda and proclaim that Christians need to act or live this way because it is written in the Bible. But non Christians forget they themselves aren't practicing the other 99.999% of what the Bible teaches us. That alone practically invalidates any argument by non Christians against Christianity. You can still make the argument, but the message carries much less weight to the people you are telling it to.

Actually I never quoted the Bible anywhere. Please do not accuse me of doing what I have not done, or was that just your way of supporting Lys by saying I am cherry picking since I used that term to describe his behavior?

I can and will share my opinion of Jesus and his teachings if I so desire. You may disregard my thoughts, but no one will not stifle me.

My observation is there are an awful lot of Bible quoting, holier than thou "christians" pontificating against all kinds of "unholy" behaviors that have absolutely no impact upon their lives. The way I see it, Jesus taught acceptance, peace, and compassion. These very vocal, so-called christians somehow cherry picked those concepts right out their existence. They quote scripture like it is a weapon to eviscerate people with whom they disagree. I see them demand that the USA call itself Christian, then insist that helping the unfortunate is not the government's job, but regulating what goes on in people's private lives is totally appropriate.

Also, for the record, before ACA a lot more people were profoundly dissatisfied with "managed" care than you realize. And if ACA is so completely worthless, why is it more popular than the president?

[Lysistrata]

Actually I never quoted the Bible anywhere. Please do not accuse me of doing what I have not done, or was that just your way of supporting Lys by saying I am cherry picking since I used that term to describe his behavior?

Actually, you expounded on what our European friend declared about the US and Christianity... "Doesn't the Bible tell us that Jesus healed the poor? That obviously means he wants all Christians to support universal healthcare."

 

DM doesn't support me. Although I was raised in Christian schools, I am not a religious man. DM and I are brothers in the Constitution. If that were not the case, I doubt there would be any sign of support whatsoever. You can "share your opinion of Jesus and his teachings if you so desire", but you would get a more positive reaction from me if you would share your opinion of James Madison... or Thomas Jefferson. That would be more suited as my religion.

 

I have been up to my eyeballs in politics for 40 years. I'm one of the last of the true believers... I breathe the US Constitution, the American way, and one of the original Ronald Reagan Republicans. My only desire is for our country to never forget what it took to create all this... and to prevent those that have never bothered to learn, from selling it so cheaply.

 

There are about 6 people who actually read all this... so I will let the crack about "my behavior" slide... I think I know what's in your heart, and it's not hate... maybe just a different point of view. It may be difficult to see, but I know we are still on the same side.

[JayMillz]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/congress-reaches-deal-to-keep-government-open-through-september/2017/04/30/5f58e9d2-2df7-11e7-9dec-764dc781686f_story.html

 

"Congress is expected to vote on the roughly $1 trillion package early this week. The bipartisan agreement includes policy victories for Democrats, whose votes will be necessary to pass the measure in the Senate, as well as $12.5 billion in new military spending and $1.5 billion more for border security requested by Republican leaders in Congress."

 

Pretty happy overall. Trump backed down on the wall, the Republicans threw the Democrats some biscuits, and Republicans did not try to strong arm everything they wanted to get through. 

[DeathMerchant]

 

Actually I never quoted the Bible anywhere. Please do not accuse me of doing what I have not done, or was that just your way of supporting Lys by saying I am cherry picking since I used that term to describe his behavior?

My observation is there are an awful lot of Bible quoting, holier than thou "christians" pontificating against all kinds of "unholy" behaviors that have absolutely no impact upon their lives. The way I see it, Jesus taught acceptance, peace, and compassion. These very vocal, so-called christians somehow cherry picked those concepts right out their existence. They quote scripture like it is a weapon to eviscerate people with whom they disagree. I see them demand that the USA call itself Christian, then insist that helping the unfortunate is not the government's job, but regulating what goes on in people's private lives is totally appropriate.

Also, for the record, before ACA a lot more people were profoundly dissatisfied with "managed" care than you realize. And if ACA is so completely worthless, why is it more popular than the president?

 

You are correct in that you did not quote the Bible. However, you did make a strong inference between Christianity and Government mandated health care. Quite frankly I dislike a lot of alleged Christians because they don't live their lives based on what they teach/profess. These are the same people who claim compassion and then call for America to invade the next Muslim country on the list. Just to show American superiority and bring our form of Democracy to the archaic and uneducated people of the Middle East. Christians like that give our religion a bad name. While the majority of Christians do not think that way, unfortunately the ones that do are often the most vocal. But that part is true for any group that chooses to embrace or entertain extremist ideology.

 

If I had to take a guess at why people are against removing the ACA, is that is probably because it will be an incredibly painful process to get it removed. Unfortunately all those people who lost health insurance after the ACA was passed, had to get their new health insurance through the government. So that leaves us with an immense amount of people using government mandated health care all because they were forced to. Pulling the rug out from under them and replacing it with something different down the line wouldn't be a smart move. I think back when the ACA was being developed, that in the back of lawmakers minds they knew exactly what they were doing. They wanted to make it so it would be an incredibly painful and drawn out experience to dismantle the ACA. They got everyone right where they wanted them, and insured that it would be much easier to modify the ACA, then wipe the slate clean. I used to be all for fully repealing the ACA, but I have softened my approach a bit. It should still be heavily modified, but some of the more popular components (the small parts that actually are positive) should be kept in place. But I still stand by my stance that the ACA is a train wreck. The Democrats gave a us a train wreck, and now we have to create another train wreck to remove it.

 

DM and I are brothers in the Constitution.

Indeed we are. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights guarantees immense freedom and gives us protection from an over reaching Government. One of my favorite quotes is this, "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny"

[Sister Midnight]

ACA is not government mandated healthcare. There are small penalties for not having any insurance, but mandate is a strong word. It is not a crime to not have health insurance, I realize some people hate ACA, but to call it a mandate is a distortion. Many people are better off with it than without it. It is flawed, but not a disaster. A disaster is having millions of people go bankrupt or become disabled because they can't afford healthcare services.

We can agree to disagree, but the fact remains that nearly every western nation has universal healthcare and no nation has fallen because of it. As a matter of fact, every single person I talk to in nations that have it say they are glad to have it even the few who have domed complaints about their particular system. You might want to ask some of your international IRON comrades how they feel about it.

I say ACA is flawed and we should fix it instead of throwing out the baby with the bath water, which is a perfect description of what many republicans are attempting to do by removing it. For anyone unfamiliar with the term, it means don't destroy an entire entity when there are valuable aspects to said entity, instead remove the aspects that are without merit and keep the ones that have value.

[Lysistrata]

ACA is not government mandated healthcare.

The law doesn't say "Individual Option', or "Employer Option"... the law says "Individual Mandate", and "Employer Mandate". Democrats just like to make shit up as they go along, but thanks to the new President and his Executive Order, the IRS was ordered to not enforce the penalties... pretty big signal that things will be changing.

We can agree to disagree, but the fact remains that nearly every western nation has universal healthcare and no nation has fallen because of it. As a matter of fact, every single person I talk to in nations that have it say they are glad to have it even the few who have domed complaints about their particular system. You might want to ask some of your international IRON comrades how they feel about it.

My mother once asked me, "If Steve jumped off a bridge, would you jump off the bridge too?"

 

No one has you tied down to a chair... take your pick and go, but their immigration laws are much tighter than ours, so you better get started. We wouldn't want to hold you back from your dream healthcare. I don't care what other countries do, and I don't care what anyone says about it. If you haven't noticed... most of those countries don't want us to get any stronger, so I'm not interested in their advice.

 

Maybe you can explain what part is "baby", and what part is "bathwater"? It appears that Congress can't agree on how to get out of it, so it's looking more and more like no one will be doing anything to save it. Without enforcing the unconstitutional mandate... it will die quickly.

[onbekende]

This thread has once again founded my belief that law purists (letter of the law above all) tend to devolve such lins as "Why is the state doing/mandating/enforcing X" into entire Libertarian thinking of "Why is the state doing anything not said in its laws?"

 

And applying this to the most narrow of laws, constitutions being universally narrow and short, tend to make it seem like they just want to be alone on an island (hence me wondering this from time to time ). They may start to wonder why the state is even doing certain things already taken for granted, education is 1 big bullseye that comes to mind. "Why we paying for other kids to go to school?" etc...

 

The biggest obstacle comes from our inate human nature to calculate risk/profit, instead of a more societal orientated empathy/common-good model of thinking. It is something that will define us into the future no doubt, not many organisms on this planet were bestowed with true altruistic notions.

 

What changes us from "risk/profit" to "empathy"? Only the most profound of experiences, something that happens that we feel is outside of our (personal) power to change. Take for instance an hurricane, nobody suddenly goes "Why should I help these people?". I consider this happens because we can emptahize with them COUPLED with the understanding that on a personal level we would be powerless. Same can be said for example with some governmental professions as firefighters and policemen. They are present cause the entire populace feels that pooling resources to have such protections (fire/harm) is beneficial instead of having individual protection, remember there were times where one bought a firemans protection, otherwise you were on your own and could nly hope people would aid you.

 

Will we ever see a majority shift from "risk/profit" to "empathy" on healthcare? No doubt this seems to be a more natural progression, but it shouldn't be forced. Why it sprouted in Western Europe? Simple: WW1&2.

 

 

I myself am for a "spirit of the law" being evolved/enriched/changed by the "spirit of the time". Coupled with my more conservative/slow-moving/evolution>revolution notions make me probably an indecisive person.

[Lysistrata]

BOOOOM! http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/331937-house-passes-obamacare-repeal

[DeathMerchant]

[onbekende]

Hurdle 1 passed with party lines present but majority party slightly dented, grats?

 

Meanwhile, the budget was approved (or rather the september extention) with more NO votes from Republican side then from Democrat side, HAHAHAHAHAH!