1091 replies to this topic

[Rhizoctonia]

I have been given permission to post my results.  That being said I am still deciding if I want to.  Would it help Werewolves or Town more?  Who would I rather see win? Werewolves may have taken down my teammates, Town will eventually likely be my killers by lynch tomorrow if I'm not killed tonight, and TW who personally killed my game by his findings, is he really a town cop or a werewolf cop.  Do I want to help a lot more town, or a few werewolves?  All questions

 

That being said, I'll admit I'm a tracker.

 

What I will give is my N1 action since it doesn't matter.

 

I tracked Imran who visited TW N1.  TW wound up dead, but knew it wasn't Imran since scum killed him.  I was tempted to RC as town tracker, to pin it on him, but knew he'd come up town and would that mean extra attention would be put on me?  Would it also tempt the other factions to target me fearbing my role?  That being said, it wasn't needed, as Imran ended up lynched without my help.  

 

I'll also add that Rafay is either immune to Scum killings, he's bulletproof, or I was blocked last night.  As he should of been killed by me, but kill didn't happen.  

[KevinH]

@KevinH just to be sure there's a place for this discussion at all. Can a Reloader reload 1 shot Vig and then Vig kill his target, during the same night?

 

Yes.

 

Per Natural Action Resolution, the reload is resolved first and then the vig shot.

[Robert2424]

This is all the more reason to keep day phases going.

[The Warrior]

 

Samus is sketchy as all hell. First he claims Nurse, now claiming town Vig. Town Vig is not that important of a role tbh, and to claim nurse to steer possible scum/werewolves/SK away from lynching him is no way beneficial to town as now the 3 bad faction are likely to go after someone else, putting the likes of more important town roles in jeopardy. Not including the fact that he supposedly already used his ability, was out of shots, and yet still looked to fake RC to save a used up role that he couldn't reuse unless he actually came forward with his real one. Yet, he didn't come forward when he was out of shots D3 with his real role, he didn't come out D3 saying he killed Rafay, and now suddenly he has. You know what's easy to claim.....a werewolf claiming town Vig saying he killed MK. Whose going to call him out? If him and his other werewolves killed MK, it's not like scum or SK would come out and say, no he didn't. Let alone, the mere fact a Vig would use their ability N2, with little to go on besides a wagon on Imran, and risk killing a town member, for which he even admits MK was not anymore suspicious then the 6 other people on the wagon. A vig, picking 1 out of 7 possible people N2 to kill and risk killing off a good town member? Who does that. I bet he's not even a Vig at all, just a 1 shot type Werewolf character.

​Did he really roleclaim Nurse after? Wow..

​He would've already known there is a re-loader so he could say that's why but still.. it's all very odd. Combined with the risks of reloading Samus you laid out, it's an very compelling case for not relading him.

​A little wary of taken advice from scum but it seems like good, logical analysis to me.

 

Military - Delta Officers 1,102 posts Resources: Nation ID:593353 Souls Baptized:∞ Squadron:Alpha Rhizo's analysis of TW and Samus is bang on, I think. The only thing I have to add is that I still don't want to lynch Rhizo today. Rafay first, imo. If we wait to leave Rafay til tomorrow, we risk three kills tonight instead of two. We need as many people alive as possible. So my vote remains on Rafay, but Rhizo is dead tomorrow. To be make sure this is not overlooked: imo AbT PLEASE DO NOT RELOAD SAMUS TONIGHT.

​Lynching Rhizo today eh? Hmm.. that's an interesting idea. He is the only one we absolutely know for sure is scum.. but you do bring up a good point that Rafay could get more kills in. And Rafay not posting isn't helping his case.

​I guess lynching Rafay first is the better thing. I agree. 
 

Rafay is 100% the person that needs to die today. We are far more certain that only 1 serial killer exists than we are that only 1 more mafia member exists. Lynching Rafay basically guarantees that there are only two kills at night tonight (mafia and werewolf) assuming that ABT does not reload Samus.

 

I have been given permission to post my results.  That being said I am still deciding if I want to.  Would it help Werewolves or Town more?  Who would I rather see win? Werewolves may have taken down my teammates, Town will eventually likely be my killers by lynch tomorrow if I'm not killed tonight, and TW who personally killed my game by his findings, is he really a town cop or a werewolf cop.  Do I want to help a lot more town, or a few werewolves?  All questions

 

That being said, I'll admit I'm a tracker.

 

What I will give is my N1 action since it doesn't matter.

 

I tracked Imran who visited TW N1.  TW wound up dead, but knew it wasn't Imran since scum killed him.  I was tempted to RC as town tracker, to pin it on him, but knew he'd come up town and would that mean extra attention would be put on me?  Would it also tempt the other factions to target me fearbing my role?  That being said, it wasn't needed, as Imran ended up lynched without my help.  

 

I'll also add that Rafay is either immune to Scum killings, he's bulletproof, or I was blocked last night.  As he should of been killed by me, but kill didn't happen.  

Firstly, thank you for confirming for everyone that my investigation of you was indeed accurate. Rhizo should be the lynch candidate tomorrow without question unless ABT decides to trust Samus and let him shoot him tonight instead.

 

Secondly, the last line of this post basically confirms what I have thought all along and have stated twice previously. I believe that when Rafay is lynched we will see that he has a 2-shot bulletproof multiplier. I assumed that he was either immune to night kills from one of the factions or that he was 2-shot bulletproof. It makes way more sense to me that he is 2-shot bulletproof than only being immune to kills from one of the other two scum factions.

 

 

@KevinH just to be sure there's a place for this discussion at all. Can a Reloader reload 1 shot Vig and then Vig kill his target, during the same night?

 

Yes.

 

Per Natural Action Resolution, the reload is resolved first and then the vig shot.

 

This is what I assumed so if ABT wants to trust Samus then Rhizo should be able to be killed tonight too.

 

 

As for the discussion about Samus as a possible werewolf PGO trying to lure ABT in:

 

I can personally say with 100% certainty that that is NOT the case. If Samus was a PGO, SBG (me) would have definitely died on night 2 when we investigated Samus. The fact that I didn't die makes it a certainty that Samus cannot be a PGO (werewolf or otherwise).

 

Now, you might question whether or not I am definitely the Town Cop and actually visited Samus on night 2.

 

Consider the roles that have already been revealed to us in this game:

 

Town Cop of All Trades (CoD) - From the mafia wiki: "Cop-of-all-Trades (One-shot Cop, One-shot Seer, One-shot FBI Agent, One-shot Conspiracy Theorist, One-shot Private Investigator)". CoD had one shot each to identify a werewolf (Seer), a mafia (Cop), and a serial killer (FBI Agent). This role was likely added to reduce the potential devastation to the town of losing one of the other existing cop roles early in the game with so many scum present.

Town Seer (Imran) - From the mafia wiki: "Seer may simply be another name for Cop, or it may be a Faction Cop (see Derivations) who can only detect Werewolves but not Mafia." Imran's investigative role was specialized and could ONLY identify werewolves.

 

Now, with the above two roles present, does it not make sense that a Normal Town Cop (me) who could only detect the opposite faction from the Seer (the mafia) would also exist in the game? And if you believe that this is indeed true, don't you think that someone would have already counterclaimed me to discredit me if I was lying about my role for some reason? And if you still think that I'm lying, doesn't the fact that Rhizo has already confirmed my guilty result on him carry some weight for you?

 

My point is: if you were not convinced previously that I am a normal TOWN Cop and not a werewolf in some ploy with Samus, consider the evidence I have presented here and you should see that it is far more likely that I am indeed what I am (a normal TOWN Cop). And if you can actually accept that as true, you know that I am not running some werewolf ploy with Samus, I did indeed investigate him on night 2, found him not guilty, and now can say with certainty that he cannot be a PGO (werewolf or town) since it means that I would have died on night 2.

 

This is why I believe that Samus is more likely than not town even though my investigation result on him would not guarantee that he isn't a werewolf. If he was a werewolf, I don't see what he gains from asking for a reload from ABT, especially now that all eyes are on him for it and it would mean his certain death either tomorrow or the next day if he was found to be lying again.

[Lord MK]

I have been given permission to post my results.  That being said I am still deciding if I want to.  Would it help Werewolves or Town more?  Who would I rather see win? Werewolves may have taken down my teammates, Town will eventually likely be my killers by lynch tomorrow if I'm not killed tonight, and TW who personally killed my game by his findings, is he really a town cop or a werewolf cop.  Do I want to help a lot more town, or a few werewolves?  All questions

 

That being said, I'll admit I'm a tracker.

 

What I will give is my N1 action since it doesn't matter.

 

I tracked Imran who visited TW N1.  TW wound up dead, but knew it wasn't Imran since scum killed him.  I was tempted to RC as town tracker, to pin it on him, but knew he'd come up town and would that mean extra attention would be put on me?  Would it also tempt the other factions to target me fearbing my role?  That being said, it wasn't needed, as Imran ended up lynched without my help.  

 

I'll also add that Rafay is either immune to Scum killings, he's bulletproof, or I was blocked last night.  As he should of been killed by me, but kill didn't happen.  

 

i have the answer to your question,

help werewolves.

[Robert2424]

I wasn't questioning if you were town tw. However it's samus play choices that have landed him into the spotlight. Enough for us to wonder.

[Yehom]

@KevinH Can we get the entire werewolf faction to get disqualified if another dead member of their faction talks again here? 

 

From a game design point of view, I feel that TW's claim is very plausible that there are so many cops (I don't remember who made the argument that there were too many cops and that there was a possibility that TW was a scum cop of some sort), given the fact that all cops have limited powers due to multiple factions existing. Since nobody has tried to counterclaim TW's claim, I'm pretty inclined to believe that TW is indeed town. The more pressing question at this moment however is whether Samus is 1) actually a Vig and 2) actually part of town. I completely understand the idea of him claiming an unimportant role to cover his ass because he's afraid of being killed at night. However it is absolutely deserved that people second guess his words and intentions the moment he reveals his 'actual' role, I don't know whether Samus actually thought that town would immediately believe his second claim, but it should have crossed his mind that there is a possibility that town doesn't react well to people lying, whatever the reasons.

 

That being said reacting to Rhizo's post above: he doesn't have an action for N2 if I read that correctly. Is that because he's leaving information out, is it because he only has powers on odd nights (which I find unlikely but it's a possibility) or is it possible that Rhizo was blocked on that night for some reason? If the 3rd option is true, and Rhizo was picked by the mafia team to make the kill, it lines up with Samus' story that he killed MK during N2, resulting in 3 kills (1 werewolf kill, 1 SK kill and 1 Vig kill, mafia kill gets blocked). I don't know whether Rhizo wants to provide us that information, or at least clarify his post, but it's something that has caught my eye and could potentially clear Samus as town as Rhizo is the last remanning mafia member, so he's probably not covering for Samus

[Ali bin Turban]

I expected Rhizo to be a tracker...now when we know (most probably) that he's not a roleblocker I can share my idea.

 

We need 3 people to visit Samus at night: Me, Jazzy and Robert.

 

1. If we all die, the only explanation is that Samus is a Werewolf PGO and that means that TW is also a scum. We win the game.

2. If at least one of us survives (Rhizo and Werewolves can still target two of us and kill them) that means Samus is not a PGO.

         If Samus is not PGO, than the only plausible explanation is that he's indeed a Vigilante (he wouldn't ask for a reload in any other scenario as it would not be reasonable). 

         If Samus is Vigilante than at the same time he's town. Vig is a town alignment and KevinH mentioned that he's not swapping alignments - so the only way for Vig to be a scum is when it's mentioned on the Greater Idea Mafia list. And as we see there it's indeed mentioned, but as a possible role for Mafia and not for Werewolves.

 

Therefore by sending 3 people we either win the game or (which is most probable) confirm Samus as a town.

 

@Robert: Now important question. Can you tell what happens when Gladiator targets Samus and Rhizo? Assuming one of his targets (Rhizo) dies at night is his power still active (and we can vote only on Samus) or it does not execute since one of his targets died? We need to know what happens in this scenario.

[The Warrior]

I expected Rhizo to be a tracker...now when we know (most probably) that he's not a roleblocker I can share my idea.

 

We need 3 people to visit Samus at night: Me, Jazzy and Robert.

 

1. If we all die, the only explanation is that Samus is a Werewolf PGO and that means that TW is also a scum. We win the game.

2. If at least one of us survives (Rhizo and Werewolves can still target two of us and kill them) that means Samus is not a PGO.

         If Samus is not PGO, than the only plausible explanation is that he's indeed a Vigilante (he wouldn't ask for a reload in any other scenario as it would not be reasonable). 

         If Samus is Vigilante than at the same time he's town. Vig is a town alignment and KevinH mentioned that he's not swapping alignments - so the only way for Vig to be a scum is when it's mentioned on the Greater Idea Mafia list. And as we see there it's indeed mentioned, but as a possible role for Mafia and not for Werewolves.

 

Therefore by sending 3 people we either win the game or (which is most probable) confirm Samus as a town.

 

@Robert: Now important question. Can you tell what happens when Gladiator targets Samus and Rhizo? Assuming one of his targets (Rhizo) dies at night is his power still active (and we can vote only on Samus) or it does not execute since one of his targets died? We need to know what happens in this scenario.

You reloaded Robert last night correct, ABT?

 

If so, and if Robert targets Samus and Rhizo, I'm inclined to believe that his action only "works" if both Samus and Rhizo survive the night: "One-shot Gladiator (Target two players at night; if both alive at daybreak, they are the only two lynch candidates that day)".

 

I read that description to say that the action only works if both targets are alive at daybreak. We should definitely get clarification from Kevin but that's how I read it.

 

[Rhizoctonia]

I have varying information from N2 and N3. My results were one I got No result(N2), and the other I got did not target anyone(N3). I don't know if both mean same thing or the "no result" was because I was blocked or target was immune. This was only for my Tracker action, as I wasn't the one who killed anyone N1 or N2, and both those kills were successful. The only time I personally tried to kill someone was last night on Rafay and as I stated he was either immuned to scum kill or bulletproof

[Rhizoctonia]

I expected Rhizo to be a tracker...now when we know (most probably) that he's not a roleblocker I can share my idea.

We need 3 people to visit Samus at night: Me, Jazzy and Robert.

1. If we all die, the only explanation is that Samus is a Werewolf PGO and that means that TW is also a scum. We win the game.
2. If at least one of us survives (Rhizo and Werewolves can still target two of us and kill them) that means Samus is not a PGO.
If Samus is not PGO, than the only plausible explanation is that he's indeed a Vigilante (he wouldn't ask for a reload in any other scenario as it would not be reasonable).
If Samus is Vigilante than at the same time he's town. Vig is a town alignment and KevinH mentioned that he's not swapping alignments - so the only way for Vig to be a scum is when it's mentioned on the Greater Idea Mafia list. And as we see there it's indeed mentioned, but as a possible role for Mafia and not for Werewolves.

Therefore by sending 3 people we either win the game or (which is most probable) confirm Samus as a town.

@Robert: Now important question. Can you tell what happens when Gladiator targets Samus and Rhizo? Assuming one of his targets (Rhizo) dies at night is his power still active (and we can vote only on Samus) or it does not execute since one of his targets died? We need to know what happens in this scenario.

Why could it not be plausable? He could very well ask you to reload him and he not have a role that needs reloaded at all, but is a member of the Werewolves and then kill me with werewolves kill they get per night. This makes you believe he in fact killed me due to being reloaded, and helps a possible fake narrative when really he just used Werewolves night kill to kill me and pass it off as a Vig kill.

[Ali bin Turban]

Firstly, If he was pretending to be a Vig, I think he'd thought it out and have done it in a far more clear manner than this mess that happened. Secondly making a false claim is always risky...in case true Vig shows up (probability there are two identical roles is rather low, I think). Thirdly, he'll only get confirmed if there are 3 kills at night.

 

If he's a Vig and delivers a kill, but other scum gets blocked and there are only two kills, then "Sorry, but we have no way of confirming that this kill was indeed yours".

[Ali bin Turban]

You reloaded Robert last night correct, ABT?

 

Yes, I did.

 

We need Jazzy to show up and confirm he'll indeed visit Samus at night.

[Ali bin Turban]

And one more thing that came up to my mind. Rhizo admitted he was somehow blocked - which means that roleblocker is in play. I don't think town roleblocker would haphazardly block random people (which would be extremely stupid, for instance hitting his own cop). That indicates we might have a werewolf roleblocker in play, which would mean that PGO scenario is not happening here.

[Kitkat16]

I would take any information from scum, even the fact that they attacked Rafay last night, with an enormous pinch of salt. Rhizo may have his own reasons for lying about that. I can't currently see any, but it's possible. In which case, we can't surmise anything about werewolf roleblockers with any kind of certainty.

[Jazzy95]

 

You reloaded Robert last night correct, ABT?

 

Yes, I did.

 

We need Jazzy to show up and confirm he'll indeed visit Samus at night.

 

 

I'm fine with that 

[The Warrior]

@ABT - If I remember correctly I think Rhizo said that he was somehow "blocked" from killing Rafay at night with the faction kill, not roleblocked while trying to perform his night action. I don't think that a roleblocker blocks the nightly faction kill. I am almost certain that Rafay will turn up as a 2-shot bulletproof SK. It was Rafay's bulletproof modifier that blocked Rhizo's kill, not a roleblocker.

[Canik]

Hmm.. as tempting as it is for me to continue not roleclaiming, because the longer I do the funny it's gonna be when it is revealed. I think it's best for town if I roleclaim now. (and already checked with Kevin to make sure it wouldn't cause mass roleclaim problems)

​I am Admiral Gial Ackbar, a Wrong Place at the Wrong Time Townie. (a Miller essentially)

I didn't roleclaim early because, basically; I wasn't sure it's that much better for town, lets scum know to target someone else. Though it is probably better statistically and stuff to roleclaim off the bat.. I wanted to believe I could get away with not doing that somehow. Then not long into the game others started claiming, AbT said if there is a Miller he should claim now and I dunno, just felt town would still be very suspicious of me and potentially lynch me anyway. Plus by not claiming Miller I thought a scum might try it then I could counter-claim. 

​Anyway, believe me or not, now you don't have to waste a investigation on me because you know I'll give a guilty result. That's how this helps town and why I am claiming now.

​I like to think Rhizo's D3 track was on me and I made him waste that track.

​ 
 

[Kitkat16]

@ABT - If I remember correctly I think Rhizo said that he was somehow "blocked" from killing Rafay at night with the faction kill, not roleblocked while trying to perform his night action. I don't think that a roleblocker blocks the nightly faction kill. I am almost certain that Rafay will turn up as a 2-shot bulletproof SK. It was Rafay's bulletproof modifier that blocked Rhizo's kill, not a roleblocker.

 

yeah, but even so, you're still accepting Rhizo's word for it that scum attacked Rafay last night. I think they probably DID hit Rafay, but I wouldn't conclude that with certainty if I were you.

 

Hmm.. as tempting as it is for me to continue not roleclaiming, because the longer I do the funny it's gonna be when it is revealed. I think it's best for town if I roleclaim now. (and already checked with Kevin to make sure it wouldn't cause mass roleclaim problems)

​I am Admiral Gial Ackbar, a Wrong Place at the Wrong Time Townie. (a Miller essentially)

I didn't roleclaim early because, basically; I wasn't sure it's that much better for town, lets scum know to target someone else. Though it is probably better statistically and stuff to roleclaim off the bat.. I wanted to believe I could get away with not doing that somehow. Then not long into the game others started claiming, AbT said if there is a Miller he should claim now and I dunno, just felt town would still be very suspicious of me and potentially lynch me anyway. Plus by not claiming Miller I thought a scum might try it then I could counter-claim. 

​Anyway, believe me or not, now you don't have to waste a investigation on me because you know I'll give a guilty result. That's how this helps town and why I am claiming now.

​I like to think Rhizo's D3 track was on me and I made him waste that track.

​ 
 

 

fwiw I believe you. this rings true to me. But I'll be keeping an eye on you (metaphorically of course, not with a PR power. I'm not claiming to have or not have a PR power at this point.)

[KevinH]

@KevinH Can we get the entire werewolf faction to get disqualified if another dead member of their faction talks again here?

Warning to Yehom for whining.
 
 

If so, and if Robert targets Samus and Rhizo, I'm inclined to believe that his action only "works" if both Samus and Rhizo survive the night: "One-shot Gladiator (Target two players at night; if both alive at daybreak, they are the only two lynch candidates that day)".
 
I read that description to say that the action only works if both targets are alive at daybreak. We should definitely get clarification from Kevin but that's how I read it.

I'm not confirming that anyone in particular is a Gladiator, but if a one-shot Gladiator were to target 2 players and one of those players died in the night, then the Gladiator's one shot would be used up and the town would be free to lynch whomever they choose.