So so so so tragic

 

I know this type of stuff happens quite often in the US, and i'm sure a lot of people are quite numb to it.

 

But I saw this tweet which shows a conversation between 2 brothers who were students of the school, both hiding for their life and it literally just got me.

 

https://twitter.com/SzZeif/status/964148278932725760

 

it's really real out there

This isn't good to hear either

 

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-statement-on-the-shooting-in-parkland-florida/layout_view

Someone's about to get fired.

I know this is likely turn into another gun control debate on here.  That being said, my heart goes out to the families that lost a kid, as well as what many of these kids will have to go through trying to get over this event.  It will certainly affect each and every kid differently, but it will certainly be a long road for a lot.   I remember being national headlines when we had a kid bring pipe bombs to school.  None of which were set off or used before they were found and detained thankfully, but it had an affect on some of my classmates, and that was for an event where no one was even hurt or injured.  

I read somewhere he said on youtube he was going to become a professional school shooter or something like that.  someone at the FBI should lose their job over this. 

 

instead we have a tragedy with 17 people dead.  its just sad 

Someone with some better google-fu (or perhaps just better english terminology ), I keep wondering about amount of violent/deadly incidents per amount of students and this compared by nation/state/city statistics. I just don't think the only factor is more readily sources of fire-arms, I feel that the "motif" side is skewed aswell in the US.

I know this is likely turn into another gun control debate on here. 

 

To be honest I don't think there's any point in discussing gun control laws when it regards the US. The country is too far deep in, guns will never be taken away, best to look at an alternative solution.

 

On a general scale people will still defend the rights to have guns after recurring incidents like this, until they are individually affected - individual emotions will never be sufficient enough.

gun control would not have prevented this. a psychopath who is dead set on committing mass murder will do so even if he cant get a gun. Just look at Nice, France.

 

Gov. Rick Scott has called on the FBI director to resign over this 

Another gun control debate will go nowhere. The only way would be for someone in Congress to destroy their own political career by drawing up the proposal to abolish the 2nd Amendment. It would go down in flames.

 

If they try to disarm the US population by legislation and force, like Australia (that doesn't have a 2nd Amendment)... then we would really see gun violence. We have more guns than people, and most gun owners will never give them up, for any reason... to anyone. It would be creating a majority population of criminals. Never gonna happen... and the stupidest thing ever to even think about.

 

Democrats make noise to keep their voters angry, knowing all along that nothing will be done. What kills me about this is hypocrisy. 17 die in a school shooting and it's all about the victims and the poor broken child that couldn't find another way to deal with his feelings. 59 Conservatives die in Las Vegas and not so much about the victims at all. It's all about the shooter, his guns, his bullets, and his bump stock.

 

If the government is responsible for teaching our children, it's the responsibility of the government to keep them safe while they are in their care. The only way to stop this from happening again is to cease this stupid practice of going to school to have fun and be social. Build schools that are as hard to get in as a prison is to get out. Build schools that are for learning... as clean as a hospital, and as serious as a library. Most children these days can go to school without leaving home... we have computer tech now.

Without going deeply into it, gun control in the US is not about access to weapons. It's about treating the utterly sick gun culture the USA has, and breaking the stranglehold the US gun manufacturing industry has on perpetuating that culture simply because it increases their bottom line.  

 

Comparing this to massacres like Nice, is not something you can do. Vastly different motivations and reasons. There is also a reason events like this are...I would use the phrase "more common" in the US, but it's more correct to say "only common" in the US. They almost all follow the same pattern: Middle class, young, white,male, possesses a over endowed sense of entitlement, etc. 

 

 

Access to weapons isn't the issue in the USA, at least not for this. It's still a major issue, America's gun laws make it trivial for the secondary market to folouish and have a continuing supply of illegal weapons, but this isn't about access. This is about the american view of guns as an expression of masculinity and the glorification of violence as a way to assert oneself in american culture. And until America cares to address that, every few months we'll have another incident like this, followed by another round of ""There's nothing we can do to prevent this" cries only nation in the world where this happens on a regular basis." 

 

 

They almost all follow the same pattern: Middle class, young, white,male, possesses a over endowed sense of entitlement, etc.

Really? Your entire post is a little offensive. I get the feeling you just don't like the USA very much. I am middle class, I used to be young, I'm white, I'm male, I'm over endowed, but I never felt "entitled" to anything I didn't earn... and I never shot anyone. I would challenge you to back that statement up with some facts. Are you a Professor living in a liberal bubble in Berkeley California? Or perhaps a European Socialist that surrendered your weapons to an oppressive government a long time ago, and now believe you have some say in what happens to your life? I think you just have an over endowed sense of thinking you're smarter than everyone else.

Denial that there is a problem is of course another aspect to the issue, thank you for your demonstration. Regardless that is a description of the vast majority of perpetrators of attacks like this: Reality disagrees with you. 

 

American gun culture is sick and broken, and when coupled with america's view of violence produces events like this. Although the fact shootings like this happen on a regular basis is just the most obvious demonstration of it. Frankly calling it a culture is even a stretch;  Estonia has a gun culture, Canada has a gun culture, Switzerland has a gun culture, Norway has a gun culture, The Czech Republic has a gun culture, Serbia has a gun culture, Finland has a gun culture. America has a product, produced and marketed by corporations in order to get people to buy in and buy more guns. 

 

 

Denial that there is a problem is of course another aspect to the issue, thank you for your demonstration. Regardless that is a description of the vast majority of perpetrators of attacks like this: Reality disagrees with you.

I have no idea what you're talking about. There was a time when the leaders of our land believed so strongly that they could build a better country, that they declared independence from an oppressive government. The foundation of this new government was built on promises made to the people. Among these promises are the people would elect their leaders, own their property, and control their own lives. The people agreed to this with conditions. One of those conditions are the people will be allowed to keep and bear arms... we would never be disarmed and held helpless to any oppressive government ever again. That has never changed.

 

We will not surrender our right to bear arms and leave ourselves defenseless, because a whack job kills some people. We punish the whack job, and continue building our better country. There is only one way to change this... three fourths of the states must agree... that's 38 out of 50. Good luck with that. So best to make that happen, or just shut up about it. We've done pretty good so far.

Because america (and in particular the rural southern population most likely to own guns) in it's valiant fight to not pay british taxes, and it's other vaillant defense of it's right to own people knows all about the need to be armed against oppression, Something which all of europe has no experience whatsoever with, certainly not any experience within living memory. 

 

And Because owning a gun in Serbia isn't common. Owning a gun in Switzerland isn't common. Owning a gun in Canada isn't common. Owning a gun in Norway isn't common. Owning a gun in France isn't common. Owning a gun in Estonia isn't common. Owning a gun in the Czech Republic isn't common. None of those...how did you phrase it? "Socialist that surrendered [their] weapons to an oppressive government a long time ago" are free. If  only they could own guns. 

 

Despite your...interesting view of the rest of the world, gun ownership tends to be somewhere between 10% and 20% of the population for much of europe. In Canada it's actually about 26%. For your comparison the rate ownership in the USA is 22%.  Fairly high rates of gun ownership is not uniquely American. Mass shootings though? 5% of the world's population, 2% of the worlds  gun owners, 30% of the mass shootings. That's as close to a uniquely American thing as you can get. 

 

 

Which brings us right back to:

 

"There is nothing that can be done about this" cries the only nation in the world where this happens on a regular basis. 

 

 

And so the issue goes nowhere. Because every time it comes up, a certain section of america, whipped up by the gun lobby, goes off about their freedoms. Because America admitting that it's gun culture is fundamentally broken would cut into the bottom line. And then 4 months later, someone shoots up another school and we do this all over again. 

 

 

Which brings us right back to:   "There is nothing that can be done about this" cries the only nation in the world where this happens on a regular basis.      And so the issue goes nowhere. Because every time it comes up, a certain section of america, whipped up by the gun lobby, goes off about their freedoms. Because America admitting that it's gun culture is fundamentally broken would cut into the bottom line. And then 4 months later, someone shoots up another school and we do this all over again. 

 

100% agree.

 

I'm sure there are parents prior to this shooting who shared the same exact view as you Lys. But what happens when they are directly affected by it? You think their views don't change?

shooter gets reported to FBI, about a year later he buys the gun. January this year the FBI tip line was called about the shooter and warned that he was armed and talked about wanting to shoot up a school and was behaving erratically.

 

I have a buddy who went to my school and he was suspended 2 times for borrowing books about things people didn't like in our school library (Hindenburg disaster, a columbine book and  the Holocaust), all for school work but because his last name sounded Arabic he was red flagged. People were straight up racist to him in high school and college, and I am not talking about the other students. The kicker is he is white and Christian. My question is if the shooter's name was Selim or Alaeddin would this have happened? 

 

 

 

 

Edit: correction. Apparently he wasn't suspended for the books but was talked to about it. He was forced to do mandatory therapy in college though for watching a documentary on the Sandy Hook shooting. Then another time for a facebook post on how and why school shootings happened which resulted in the Highschool not allowing him back in until public pressure forced them.

 

 

Because america (and in particular the rural southern population most likely to own guns) in it's valiant fight to not pay british taxes, and it's other vaillant defense of it's right to own people knows all about the need to be armed against oppression, Something which all of europe has no experience whatsoever with, certainly not any experience within living memory.

Well... like I said at the very beginning... "Another gun control debate will go nowhere".

 

Because america (and in particular the rural southern population most likely to own guns) in it's valiant fight to not pay british taxes, and it's other vaillant defense of it's right to own people knows all about the need to be armed against oppression, Something which all of europe has no experience whatsoever with, certainly not any experience within living memory.

Well... like I said at the very beginning... "Another gun control debate will go nowhere".

 

which is why any debate that happens, should be focused around alternatives

 

Which brings us right back to:   "There is nothing that can be done about this" cries the only nation in the world where this happens on a regular basis.      And so the issue goes nowhere. Because every time it comes up, a certain section of america, whipped up by the gun lobby, goes off about their freedoms. Because America admitting that it's gun culture is fundamentally broken would cut into the bottom line. And then 4 months later, someone shoots up another school and we do this all over again. 

 

100% agree.

 

I'm sure there are parents prior to this shooting who shared the same exact view as you Lys. But what happens when they are directly affected by it? You think their views don't change?

RH is essentially saying here what Lys himself likes to often quote. “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people”. Damn right. And people are influenced by the culture they live in.

I put this up on Facebook the other day, and its the best representation of my feelings on the subject.

 

 

 

So here is how I expect the next 30 days to go down. Republican lawmakers call for legislation to place armed security guards at schools. Democrat lawmakers reject that notion and call for more gun control legislation. After much deliberation, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING will be done to prevent school shootings. And we will find ourselves reliving this issue again in the relatively near future.

 

In this specific incidence, it seems the majority of the blame lies with bureaucracy and broken communication systems. In 2013, the Broward County School board started a program that stopped the relay of information to police in regards to bad student behavior. Therefore, the School did not notify the local PD of (insert low life's name) being a possible threat. The PD gets called to (insert low life's name) house 39 times in 7 years. (insert low life's name) begins posting photos online holding knives/guns and starts creeping people out when having physical, in person conversations. In September 2017, FBI gets notified about a YouTube comment that was made stating "I'm going to be a professional school shooter". FBI receives the information, does some follow up, then the case falls into a black hole due to hitting a dead end. Apparently the FBI failed to track the username to an actual person. Which seems odd because lets say (insert low life's name) used a VPN to mask his IP, he still used his full, real life name for his YouTube username. For those interested, here is a video of the guy who saw the comment on YouTube and reported it to the FBI.

https://nypost.com/2018/02/15/youtuber-i-tipped-fbi-about-alleged-florida-shooter-last-year/

 

So apart from complete lack of communication in regards to LE agencies and school administrators, there are a couple other factors which allowed this event to play out.

 

Lack of parenting/bad parenting. It appears (insert low life's name) had a rough childhood and was from a broken home. This likely contributed to his deviance.

 

Broken mental health system. I am surprised the school Psychologist never got involved and sat him down to talk. A lot of his classmates believed if anyone was going to shoot up the school it would be him. So clearly multiple people were aware of his issues, and the school had documentation of his disciplinary actions. It seems odd that if the school adopted a policy of not reporting bad behavior to police, and that the school itself wanted to handle problems internally, then why was it a half hearted approach? Yes he was disciplined, yes he was expelled, but the school apparently failed to investigate further.

 

In retrospect, hindsight is always 20/20, but their are clearly several glaring mistakes present which could have confronted this threat prior to the shooting. Countless people said something and yet the system to process information and subsequently react failed.

gun control would not have prevented this. a psychopath who is dead set on committing mass murder will do so even if he cant get a gun. Just look at Nice, France.

 

Gov. Rick Scott has called on the FBI director to resign over this 

Or the knife attack in China. Something like 39 dead and 130+ injured. (edit: 33 dead - 130 injured)

Which BTW, mass knife attacks seem to be a thing in China like mass shootings are in the US.

 

 

 

I know this is likely turn into another gun control debate on here. 

 

To be honest I don't think there's any point in discussing gun control laws when it regards the US. The country is too far deep in, guns will never be taken away, best to look at an alternative solution.

 

On a general scale people will still defend the rights to have guns after recurring incidents like this, until they are individually affected - individual emotions will never be sufficient enough.

 

Even for those of us who have been directly effected by gun violence, our views don't change if we have a strong opinion on the matter.

 

 

Without going deeply into it, gun control in the US is not about access to weapons. It's about treating the utterly sick gun culture the USA has, and breaking the stranglehold the US gun manufacturing industry has on perpetuating that culture simply because it increases their bottom line.  

 

Comparing this to massacres like Nice, is not something you can do. Vastly different motivations and reasons. There is also a reason events like this are...I would use the phrase "more common" in the US, but it's more correct to say "only common" in the US. They almost all follow the same pattern: Middle class, young, white,male, possesses a over endowed sense of entitlement, etc. 

 

 

Access to weapons isn't the issue in the USA, at least not for this. It's still a major issue, America's gun laws make it trivial for the secondary market to folouish and have a continuing supply of illegal weapons, but this isn't about access. This is about the american view of guns as an expression of masculinity and the glorification of violence as a way to assert oneself in american culture. And until America cares to address that, every few months we'll have another incident like this, followed by another round of ""There's nothing we can do to prevent this" cries only nation in the world where this happens on a regular basis." 

^This

For the hundred of people being helped with their issues (mainly mental), some still get left behind. This is a sad truth and only continued effort can diminsh this.

For the hundred of people being detained or halted in their quest for violence, some still get to make due on their plans. This is a sad truth and only continued effort can diminsh this.

 

As I said before in this thread, and touched by others, if the USA itself is not ready to change 1 part of the equation (guns) it should look at the other parts it could adjust.

- Strenghtening of the social oversight surrounding "troubled people", be it at home, in school, on the workplace, in the local meeting grounds.

- Evaluating the protections, were they up to scratch with the set forth plans? Was everything done for this specific case as it would have been for a generic case? Evaluate the shortcomming, find the points where more work/change can be done to further the efficiency.

- Expand the support for potential perpetrator, victims and society as a group.

 

 

You can't life in an utopia, but you can try to find the one you like the most. Thusfar a shift away from the 2nd isn't going to happen for the USA, as such the USA has accepted these incidents as part of their utopia. Different societies shouldn't try to enforce change on another society but oneself can always look towards others to find parts they might like in their own utopia.

I only have 4 guns, I should buy more

 

 

Which brings us right back to:   "There is nothing that can be done about this" cries the only nation in the world where this happens on a regular basis.      And so the issue goes nowhere. Because every time it comes up, a certain section of america, whipped up by the gun lobby, goes off about their freedoms. Because America admitting that it's gun culture is fundamentally broken would cut into the bottom line. And then 4 months later, someone shoots up another school and we do this all over again. 

 

100% agree.

 

I'm sure there are parents prior to this shooting who shared the same exact view as you Lys. But what happens when they are directly affected by it? You think their views don't change?

RH is essentially saying here what Lys himself likes to often quote. “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people”. Damn right. And people are influenced by the culture they live in.

 

 

 

Not quite. More something to the effect of  "the culture and laws around people shape their views and actions". Unforntally right now American gun culture  looks a lot like this. American gun culture looks like a place where freaking Obama got reelected and gun sales go through the roof because the news told em the black guy's gonna take their guns. 

 

When gun control exists in most of the world, it's not about eliminating peoples access to arms. The objectives are to limit the black and grey markets and to shape the culture of ownership. When you apply for a restricted firearm licence here you're required to provide a couple references, complete a set of safety courses, and have a purpose for owning such a thing. Although "purpose" is rather loose, target shooting and collecting are both perfectly legitimate reasons. Although collecting here means you do in fact need to be a collector, not simply a person who has a lot of guns. ie you'd better have some solid knowledge of the technical features and history of your firearms.

 

Of course most restricted firearms are bullshit...from a capability perspective. The Ar-15 is on that list for example, and you can buy pretty  comparable non restricted rifles. A common feature of firearms on that list however is the stupid tacticool marketing wank *points up at that image*.  You can still get one of course, but the process goes a long way to shaping a culture of responsible ownership  and means that gun culture in general here isn't dominated and directed by that marketing wank. 

 

Something similar could be done in America without ever touching the  second amendment. As with all rights, the ones granted by the second amendment are not unlimited. Unfortunately a section of Americans, in fact a minority of Americans, feel that the second amendment is more absolute and the rights granted by it more protected than little things like the right to vote. Which brings us back to the source of that opinion and how much of American gun culture is an artificial construction by corporate marketing teams so they can sell more guns. 

 

The reason why this debate dies in america isn't because of "the people of america", or the "the second amendment" or any other given reason, but because of a spectacular mount of lobbying by corporations and corporate controlled groups I mean generous campaign donors to ensure it goes nowhere. 

 

 

 

I put this up on Facebook the other day, and its the best representation of my feelings on the subject.

 

 

 

So here is how I expect the next 30 days to go down. Republican lawmakers call for legislation to place armed security guards at schools. Democrat lawmakers reject that notion and call for more gun control legislation. After much deliberation, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING will be done to prevent school shootings. And we will find ourselves reliving this issue again in the relatively near future.

 

In this specific incidence, it seems the majority of the blame lies with bureaucracy and broken communication systems. In 2013, the Broward County School board started a program that stopped the relay of information to police in regards to bad student behavior. Therefore, the School did not notify the local PD of (insert low life's name) being a possible threat. The PD gets called to (insert low life's name) house 39 times in 7 years. (insert low life's name) begins posting photos online holding knives/guns and starts creeping people out when having physical, in person conversations. In September 2017, FBI gets notified about a YouTube comment that was made stating "I'm going to be a professional school shooter". FBI receives the information, does some follow up, then the case falls into a black hole due to hitting a dead end. Apparently the FBI failed to track the username to an actual person. Which seems odd because lets say (insert low life's name) used a VPN to mask his IP, he still used his full, real life name for his YouTube username. For those interested, here is a video of the guy who saw the comment on YouTube and reported it to the FBI.

https://nypost.com/2018/02/15/youtuber-i-tipped-fbi-about-alleged-florida-shooter-last-year/

 

So apart from complete lack of communication in regards to LE agencies and school administrators, there are a couple other factors which allowed this event to play out.

 

Lack of parenting/bad parenting. It appears (insert low life's name) had a rough childhood and was from a broken home. This likely contributed to his deviance.

 

Broken mental health system. I am surprised the school Psychologist never got involved and sat him down to talk. A lot of his classmates believed if anyone was going to shoot up the school it would be him. So clearly multiple people were aware of his issues, and the school had documentation of his disciplinary actions. It seems odd that if the school adopted a policy of not reporting bad behavior to police, and that the school itself wanted to handle problems internally, then why was it a half hearted approach? Yes he was disciplined, yes he was expelled, but the school apparently failed to investigate further.

 

In retrospect, hindsight is always 20/20, but their are clearly several glaring mistakes present which could have confronted this threat prior to the shooting. Countless people said something and yet the system to process information and subsequently react failed.

 

So how many [more] times does this need to happen before you want to consider the issue as something more than a one off series of failures. Beacuaracy isn't why this happened . it happened because this is just the latest incident in a multi decade long pattern of similar incidents. Something *always* fails. 

 

 

Not quite. More something to the effect of "the culture and laws around people shape their views and actions". Unforntally right now American gun culture looks a lot like this. American gun culture looks like a place where freaking Obama got reelected and gun sales go through the roof because the news told em the black guy's gonna take their guns.

This is like the third time you have called us racist. Through my life I have found that anyone calling me a racist is either using race as a debate tool in an attempt to create an indefensible situation for me... in other words, you can't win so you end it trying to make us look guilty of something morally repulsive... or you are a racist yourself, therefore it's best to accuse them of it first.

 

Classic deflection tactic of the liberal left, and we see it playing out today. The Clintons, the Obama Administration, and the DNC, "colluded" with the Russians, and weaponized government agencies to influence an election... and then continued to do it in order to cover up their crimes, and undermine the authority, and the policies, of an elected President. In short... Whatever Democrats are accusing you of... it's a pretty good bet they are accusing you of what they themselves are guilty of. Sure does muck up the system.

 

Not quite. More something to the effect of "the culture and laws around people shape their views and actions". Unforntally right now American gun culture looks a lot like this. American gun culture looks like a place where freaking Obama got reelected and gun sales go through the roof because the news told em the black guy's gonna take their guns.

This is like the third time you have called us racist. Through my life I have found that anyone calling me a racist is either using race as a debate tool in an attempt to create an indefensible situation for me... in other words, you can't win so you end it trying to make us look guilty of something morally repulsive... or you are a racist yourself, therefore it's best to accuse them of it first.

 

Classic deflection tactic of the liberal left, and we see it playing out today. The Clintons, the Obama Administration, and the DNC, "colluded" with the Russians, and weaponized government agencies to influence an election... and then continued to do it in order to cover up their crimes, and undermine the authority, and the policies, of an elected President. In short... Whatever Democrats are accusing you of... it's a pretty good bet they are accusing you of what they themselves are guilty of. Sure does muck up the system.

 

 

You realize you haven't actually responded to a single thing i've said. Like not one response you've made this is thread has actually addressed a single thing. You have contributed nothing. 

 

What you continue to do is latch onto a small, trivial verifiable, not controversial point and then treat it like a personal attack against yourself in an attempt to inject your own politics into a conversation that should have little to do with politics, because you're apparently so very insecure about your views you need to "win points" whenever possible.

 

America saw such a massive fit of panic buying of firearms after Obama's election that you had a multi year long ammo shortage and this panic buying was driven by media whipped up hysteria, and that much of the hysteria around his election was driven by stupid racist bullshit because that was an easy way for his opposition to rally their base (kenya, birth certificate, muslim, how many times did he get called a monkey?) is not a controversial statement.

 

If that statement offends you personally? Well then I'd question why you feel it hits so close to home. 

 

 

Otherwise if you dislike my position on the state of America's gun culture, my position on the cause of it, or any statement i've made around the influence firearm manufacturers have on the debate and discussion, do feel free to actually address any of those points. Or even contribute a point of your own.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/day-prior-parkland-grandmother-foiled-grandson-s-alleged-school-shooting-n848426

 

 

Even if all firearms are removed it won't matter if people still want to kill people they are going to do it. The only difference is they aren't going to be as effective at it.

 

I believe the point RH is trying to make, correct me if I'm mistaken, is that behavior is a visible response to stimuli and that response is shaped by our culture. Looking at statistics there is an increase in "mass" shootings over the years. Now while correlation doesn't imply causation in this case "it does waggle its eyebrows suggestively and gesture furtively while mouthing 'look over there'".(XKCD)

Sure to some extent crazies are going to be crazy but the point trying to be made is at what point are these just "mentally ill people" and what point are they "born and bred" to think like this.