Another day, another plane. Captain "Anger-Management" Tilden (As he was known secretly by the crew) had always been proud of how he handled the flights on his plane. Always smooth, orderly, and comfortable for the passengers. And he intended to keep it that way, he reflected, carrying his bags through the airport terminal. Today's flight was to be a tedious one over the atlantic. But never mind.

 

Got to keep alert, he mused as his bags went through a scanner. Terrorists were everywhere these days. The takeoff was, as always, impeccable. The passengers seemed fairly happy, apart from that hungover one complaining about the lack of painkillers, and Tilden settled himself down for a smooth flight.

 

A few hours into the flight, the door to the cockpit was nudged open, breaking the silence. Tilden stiffened. It was probably that flight attendant. It was no secret amongst the crew that Tilden had a thing for her. But he didn't care. He wasn't about to ruin his chances by shouting again.

"Ah, Marie, could you-"

 

That was as far as he got. Looking at the reflection in the window, he saw a man in plain clothes. A passenger? He was striding up to Tilden with purpose. Tilden's eyes widened as he saw the flash of a blade. He opened his mouth to speak, but couldn't. A knife was swiftly drawn across his throat. He choked, swiftly passing into unconsciousness.

 

And yet no-one noticed the 2 dead pilots in the cockpit. Marie, the flight attendant, was about halfway through serving drinks. She glanced to the left, flashed a fake smile to the passenger before seeing he was unconscious.

She sighed, and rolled her eyes, recognising the passenger as the one with the hangover. She was about to turn away, when something caught her eye. Had he spilt coffee on himself? She sighed again, reaching for some napkins.

 

Wait. That wasn't coffee.

She screamed, noticing the blood spread out over the man's torso. The passenger's heads turned round to look at her. The man's pocket identified him as a Police officer.

 

It was happening again...

 

PLANE CRASH II

 

ALIVE (Italics indicates confirmation)

1. Narsis

3. Electric Mango

8. AKCPLUTO

9. Falzis

11. Aquinas

12. CanucksDynasty

13. Martino

 

DEAD

'Anger Management' Tilden, Pilot, slashed N0.

Nameless Copilot, slashed N0.

Nameless Hungover Cop, stabbed N0.

crazyemolad, TOWNIE, lynched D1.

Junkahoolik, TOWNIE, lynched D2.

KevinH, TOWNIE, stabbed N2.

Sir Jesus, TOWNIE, lynched D3.

Kaziocore, TOWNIE, killed N3.

Junkahoolik II, TOWNIE, killed N4.

Edited February 11, 201016 yr by molestargazer

we could let a random number generator decide who goes where, that way its completely impartial

No, there is no way to check what the outcome of the random number generator was. You can just make up any list and claim the order was determined by the random number generator.

 

I would be in favor of either using the sign up order or letting someone we all consider a townie make the list. Actually thinking about it some more, I prefer the second way of making the list. Everyone already knows the sign up order. So if the scum doesn't like the order, they can just vote against based on other arguments, whereas if they like the order they can vote for. So we would first have to agree upon one person making the list before he can publish the list. I would nominate Narsis, as his splitting up in 4 factions that cannot reach eachother at night is clearly a pro town strategy.

I'm fine with letting Narsis choose the list of who goes where. He seems pro-town to me.

 

For the record, I would like to have it acknowledged that I thought of that idea before Narsis even suggested it. That is why I FOS'd Aquinas and KevinH and asked Mole for clarification if we could tell where people chose to spend the night.

 

Als we should split into 5 sections, not 4.

 

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff77/molestargazer/PlaneDiagram.png

 

Sections

 

2, 3, 5, 7, and 8.

 

This will put us all into non adjacent compartments while at the same time exploring as much as the plane as possible.

 

I highly doubt there will be any night kills as we would quickly close in on the scum. It's for this reason that I think we should hold off on a Day 1 lynch and give our cop time to investigate.

 

 

Also, why is KevinH not pushing for a Day 1 lynch? He's usually first to jump on that train but I haven't heard him say anything about it during a game where it actually makes sense. This, plus the fact that he was for everyone moving to a different compartment makes him the most suspicious.

EM you have forgotten this rule

 

3-1. Players may NOT stay in Location 5 overnight.

 

so we are really stuck with the splitting into 4

No, there is no way to check what the outcome of the random number generator was. You can just make up any list and claim the order was determined by the random number generator.

 

I would be in favor of either using the sign up order or letting someone we all consider a townie make the list. Actually thinking about it some more, I prefer the second way of making the list. Everyone already knows the sign up order. So if the scum doesn't like the order, they can just vote against based on other arguments, whereas if they like the order they can vote for. So we would first have to agree upon one person making the list before he can publish the list. I would nominate Narsis, as his splitting up in 4 factions that cannot reach eachother at night is clearly a pro town strategy.

 

i'm still against making a list in the first place. what was the reason you wanted to make a list again? to avoid townie mistakes? i think that the idea Kazio mentioned for keeping track of who is where would work fine at limiting townie mistakes. so why is the list needed?

i'm still against making a list in the first place. what was the reason you wanted to make a list again? to avoid townie mistakes? i think that the idea Kazio mentioned for keeping track of who is where would work fine at limiting townie mistakes. so why is the list needed?

 

I thought people ignored it because no one commented it except you.

im getting lost, ( first real game of mafia )

trust me this isnt standard

So many pages already. Sorry I'm quite busy with a debate tournament. I really promise to catch up in a day or two. We just reached semifinals so we will still be competing tomorrow.

im getting lost, ( first real game of mafia )

 

You picked an unfortunate first game.

No matter, you'll get into it once people stop discussing the setup and start scumhunting.

You guys are burning this thread up. Sorry I couldn't keep up. I follow on my phone but I am tied down pretty regularly between class and work so you have to excuse my interjections rather than continuing discussion.

 

For my two cents anyway, I think we should make a list/picking hybrid. I think it would give us more information.

 

Remembering:

 

5. Players may only carry out night actions on players they in the same area as.

5-1. Any players with night powers may move ONE area adjacent to the one they chose to carry out their actions. This is done by PMing their move with their action.

 

Therefore when a night action is carried out we can look at who was assigned to specific rooms and why they deviated etc.

 

Furthermore:

3. After a player has been lynched, the game thread will remain open for 48 hours. During this time, all players must post which location they are going to move to for the night, using the MOVE: Area 4 or MOVE: Economy Seating format. This is posted in-thread.

 

We can see where people choose to move no matter what. All moves that are not night kill related get posted in thread. So we have a master list of where everyone was supposed to be and if we see them resting somewhere else over night we can allege that its doubtful anyone was stupid enough to not copy and paste their room assignment from our master list. If we can look at an individual basis of people deviating from the plan we are in good shape. If we have people choosing their own rooms I would say it gives the mafia a greater advantage to get themselves into the room they would like. If we have people pick we allow for the first four people to pick one of four rooms without replacement. Those choices are pretty arbitrary considering we do not yet know the benefits of each room. Then we have people stacking. Who decides the order we choose to pick our rooms is? If we go by the signup list we can target what the options were of the person who selected the room that the night action took place in. For example if

1. Narsis

2. Junkahoolik

3. Electric Mango

4. KevinH

 

pick our four rooms in that order and we find that there is a night kill on Electric Mango we know that one of the other two people in his room are scum. However, we also know that the scum that picked that room had a better reason to pick that room than the others. So, we can say that if in the second room drafting round Sir Jesus moved to Electric Mango's room we can conclude that the other rooms may have been filled with other scum known to Sir Jesus. If someone is in the situation multiple nights, (especially if we have a similar map of the island) we can speculate why they may not be targeting a certain individual. If we continue down the sign up list (manifest-for flavor?) each night it might help us to use process of elimination on the scum targets.

 

Also, I wonder how night kills will be delegated by the scum. I've never been scum so I might have the mechanics wrong here but don't "vanilla scum" come to a consensus about who they are going to kill and that must be sent to the moderator. So if we know that the scum can only carry about an action in a room they are in that night could they kill in any number of rooms that they are located in because they made the decision together? Would they all have to be in the same room? Or, can we assume their is a Godfather role that commits the night kill in a room he is in.

 

As far as a lynch goes I don't think we need worry about that just yet. I don't think anyone has given a serious enough rational to be voted for. (Obviously Electric Mango disagrees with me - ) I think it would be more appropriate to draft a solid plan, one that we all can agree to and then target dissenters of that plan etc. etc. etc. It seems we might have enough numbers to get away with a no lynch on D1 and then not regret it later in the game when we needed one more turn to lynch a known scum. Thats WIFOM obviously - what if we had lynched an extra townie on D1 etc. etc. etc.

 

Anyway, that is where I stand for now. I'll be on as often as I have significant information to relate. I doubt i'll be getting into as much back and forth as you all seem to have thus far however.

 

P.S. If you all find that to be considerably impossible to follow, let me know and i'll get to rephrasing. I changed my mind about something half way through so, I'll fix any inconsistencies I missed if they are seriously detracting from your understanding of my point.

^ Clear as Mafia Mud right there

 

Regardless, I did follow and have nothing to add to my "I'm not against a no lynch, just give me a persuasive reason" and "I'm ok with a list" positions.

 

I would like, at this time, the list to be drafted by either CD or Narsis, both of whom I get good vibes from.

 

Unvote

Pros for a lynch on D1:

1. Voting pattern obtained

2. Each separate room would have 3 people in it.

3. If a nk happened on N1, the number of suspects is 2 instead of a possible 3 (in the room that contained 4 people in it).

4. D2 we would have a 50/50 chance of lynching mafia

 

Cons for a lynch on D1:

1. We probably would lynch a townie.

 

vs

 

Pros for a no lynch on D1:

1. We don't risk lynching a townie.

 

Cons for a no lynch on D2:

1. No voting pattern obtained

2. If nk happens on D1, it will probably happen in the room with 4 people in it.

3. The suspect pool would be 3 people.

4. D2 - we would have 33% of lynching mafia.

 

 

So basically...

Lose 2 townies to get better odds of lynching mafia

or

Lose 1 townie and have smaller odds of lynching mafia.

 

I think I'm in favour for a lynch.

For the record, I would like to have it acknowledged that I thought of that idea before Narsis even suggested it. That is why I FOS'd Aquinas and KevinH and asked Mole for clarification if we could tell where people chose to spend the night.

 

This, plus the fact that he was for everyone moving to a different compartment makes him the most suspicious.

You are getting the facts wrong. Remember these posts?

 

• After someone is killed, we can put suspicion on everyone in the same and adjacent compartments.
  

I propose we leave 2 locations empty and have 5 locations with 2 players and 1 location with 3 players.

 

I agree that 4 separate locations is a better strategy than the one I suggested but mine would only be slightly less optimal.

 

 

If we self-select, that will give the scum a potential advantage.

By self-select, I mean allowing each player to choose where he wants to go (even within constraints). If the mafia wanted to spread out, we couldn't stop them. If the mafia wanted to do something in the cockpit, we couldn't stop them.

 

I am in favor of someone publishing a list and everyone following it. CD's list is as good as any.

also please please please lets not get into the day 1 lynch no lynch argument again

He's usually first to jump on that train but I haven't heard him say anything about it during a game where it actually makes sense.

 

Vote: No Lynch

dang!

 

i jsut made a lengthy post and my browser deletes it. i'll rewrite it later when i get home since my laptop is almost dead...

 

Notepad! http://www.facepunch.com/fp/emoot/eng101.gif

Vote count to come tomorrow. I'm sure you can make do 'til then. -Mole

Edited October 29, 200917 yr by molestargazer

3-2. If any player does not submit an action, they will be distributed randomly and refused any potential benefits for that night.

MOD: If a person goes AWOL or does not submit their location for whatever reason, will the rest of us be given the random location assigned to them before the night actions begin?

Yes.

 

 

Also, if we wanted to go completely random on room assignments, there's plenty of ways we could do it so we all know it's legit.

 

An example would be that each person is paired with a companies stock that is publicly traded. We take a screen shot of today's prices and one again in let's say 5 days. The 3 with the highest gains are in one group, the next 3 in the next and so on.

 

Another way would be to assign each of us to a city and use that city's daily high temperature as a benchmark and the top 3 cities w/ the biggest increase in temp are in the first area, etc.

 

No matter how we assign rooms, I think it's important that we do assign rooms or scum could manipulate it as they are the only group who know who each other are.

 

As for the lynch/no lynch, I'm still debating.

Edited October 29, 200917 yr by molestargazer

^ Interesting way to generate random numbers, but I do like the stock gainers with the following riders

 

-NYSE only

 

-Ties broken by player posting first gets assigned first

 

- Player chooses stock and provides a screenshot with timestamp of price.

 

 

Secondly, I unvoted Junkahoolik as I feel he has explained himself sufficiently at this point for my satisfaction to warrant the unvote and not as a suggestion I am in favor of a "No Lynch" strategy. CD's points are more than valid for me to stay away from the "No Lynch" strategy.

 

Finally, thanks EM for clarifying your FOSs

ok so first: i disagree with the room assignments. i'll give more details in that long post i promised(coming up in a minute or two). however if we do room assignments the stock exchange or temperature ideas sound good.

You are getting the facts wrong. Remember these posts?

 

 

QUOTE (KevinH @ Oct 26 2009, 10:00 PM) *

 

* After someone is killed, we can put suspicion on everyone in the same and adjacent compartments.

 

 

QUOTE (KevinH @ Oct 27 2009, 08:01 AM) *

I propose we leave 2 locations empty and have 5 locations with 2 players and 1 location with 3 players.

 

 

1st Quote - Well that isn't really any groundbreaking news, you are only stating the obvious so you don't get any townie points from me for this post, sorry.

 

2nd Quote - You only said that after I FOS'd you and Aquinas for supporting the original theory of spreading out.

You guys are burning this thread up. Sorry I couldn't keep up. I follow on my phone but I am tied down pretty regularly between class and work so you have to excuse my interjections rather than continuing discussion.

 

For my two cents anyway, I think we should make a list/picking hybrid. I think it would give us more information.

 

Remembering:

 

 

 

Therefore when a night action is carried out we can look at who was assigned to specific rooms and why they deviated etc.

 

Furthermore:

 

 

We can see where people choose to move no matter what. All moves that are not night kill related get posted in thread. So we have a master list of where everyone was supposed to be and if we see them resting somewhere else over night we can allege that its doubtful anyone was stupid enough to not copy and paste their room assignment from our master list. If we can look at an individual basis of people deviating from the plan we are in good shape. If we have people choosing their own rooms I would say it gives the mafia a greater advantage to get themselves into the room they would like. If we have people pick we allow for the first four people to pick one of four rooms without replacement. Those choices are pretty arbitrary considering we do not yet know the benefits of each room. Then we have people stacking. Who decides the order we choose to pick our rooms is? If we go by the signup list we can target what the options were of the person who selected the room that the night action took place in. For example if

1. Narsis

2. Junkahoolik

3. Electric Mango

4. KevinH

 

pick our four rooms in that order and we find that there is a night kill on Electric Mango we know that one of the other two people in his room are scum. However, we also know that the scum that picked that room had a better reason to pick that room than the others. So, we can say that if in the second room drafting round Sir Jesus moved to Electric Mango's room we can conclude that the other rooms may have been filled with other scum known to Sir Jesus. If someone is in the situation multiple nights, (especially if we have a similar map of the island) we can speculate why they may not be targeting a certain individual. If we continue down the sign up list (manifest-for flavor?) each night it might help us to use process of elimination on the scum targets.

 

Also, I wonder how night kills will be delegated by the scum. I've never been scum so I might have the mechanics wrong here but don't "vanilla scum" come to a consensus about who they are going to kill and that must be sent to the moderator. So if we know that the scum can only carry about an action in a room they are in that night could they kill in any number of rooms that they are located in because they made the decision together? Would they all have to be in the same room? Or, can we assume their is a Godfather role that commits the night kill in a room he is in.

 

As far as a lynch goes I don't think we need worry about that just yet. I don't think anyone has given a serious enough rational to be voted for. (Obviously Electric Mango disagrees with me - ) I think it would be more appropriate to draft a solid plan, one that we all can agree to and then target dissenters of that plan etc. etc. etc. It seems we might have enough numbers to get away with a no lynch on D1 and then not regret it later in the game when we needed one more turn to lynch a known scum. Thats WIFOM obviously - what if we had lynched an extra townie on D1 etc. etc. etc.

 

Anyway, that is where I stand for now. I'll be on as often as I have significant information to relate. I doubt i'll be getting into as much back and forth as you all seem to have thus far however.

 

P.S. If you all find that to be considerably impossible to follow, let me know and i'll get to rephrasing. I changed my mind about something half way through so, I'll fix any inconsistencies I missed if they are seriously detracting from your understanding of my point.

 

tbh i had a huge reply written up and after it got deleted realized what you were actually saying. and tbh...i'm not opposed to the idea.

the list idea imo is selling us short. we are giving up valuable information. both my idea and the hybrid more or less give us the info.

 

but what info is it?

 

it is very comparable to lynches. no one here, except for Kevin and maybe crazy, would say that no-lynching is a good idea. why? one reason is because lynching gives us good information. so why would we turn down the chance at getting information here? to save a townie from making a mistake that could get him killed? yet lynching for info would guarantee that townies death. could vs. guarantee...i'll take the could.

 

not to mention that can fairly easily limit the chance of a mistake while maintaining the ability to gather information. that's why VCs exist, so why not do something similar for moving? an MC of sorts.

Also we should not give Narsis a free pass as a townie. He originally supported the spreading out theory along w/ KevinH and Aquinas. I must missed it my first time through.

 

anyway i think that for at least tonight when it comes we should spread out with at least one person in each area. most will have two.

 

He was wrongly credited w/ being the first to come up with the idea of 4 locations but only posted that after I FOS'd Kevin and Aquinas for the spreading out idea (I should have FOS'd Narsis also) Also he never suggested 4 locations until Kevin suggested 5 locations. So to sit back and give him a free pass seems irresponsible. I find him suspicious myself.

 

I think that if you read through the first two pages of text you will agree to what I am saying.

 

If anyone should get a free pass it's me because I was the first to support the theory ( I would have posted it first but I wanted to get the mod ruling 1st )

I've read through the entire thing, and literally have determined nothing of people's roles.

 

I believe that we should separate into rooms 2,3,7,8 (I'm sure someone has already has said it).

This would break everyone up into 4 distinct groups, and 2 sub-groups. Thus, we have two sets of info to work with: immediate room, and neighboring room actions.

 

Also, I think lynching on the first day when the night is so ripe for investigation/information is silly.

 

Vote: No Lynch

 

Let's assign these rooms...

spreading out does have its benefits...but we do need to be careful about it. sure we spread out but scum could more or less fairly easily put people in such a position as to be capable of targetting everyone. so as a method to avoid getting killed by scum...not necessarily going to work. i guess it would narrow the list somewhat though.

 

what i think would make a bigger effect would be seeing in what order and how/why people choose their location. i mean if we get together and say: you go here and you go here it doesn't really give us a good idea of who's mafia and who's not.

 

anyway i think that for at least tonight when it comes we should spread out with at least one person in each area. most will have two.

 

so that aside... i guess the question now is...who is scum?

 

 

Also we should not give Narsis a free pass as a townie. He originally supported the spreading out theory along w/ KevinH and Aquinas. I must missed it my first time through.

 

He was wrongly credited w/ being the first to come up with the idea of 4 locations but only posted that after I FOS'd Kevin and Aquinas for the spreading out idea (I should have FOS'd Narsis also) Also he never suggested 4 locations until Kevin suggested 5 locations. So to sit back and give him a free pass seems irresponsible. I find him suspicious myself.

 

I think that if you read through the first two pages of text you will agree to what I am saying.

 

If anyone should get a free pass it's me because I was the first to support the theory ( I would have posted it first but I wanted to get the mod ruling 1st )

 

i agree that i should not get a free pass. no one should.

 

anyway...

 

the full quote that you quoted is listed above. although i may have agreed with the idea of spreading out, 1) that was before i went over it thoroughly and 2) at that point in time, and still even now, i'm much more concerned with the information. regardless of how we go about it, the method we choose should be the one that gets us the most information, anything else is cutting us short.

 

also i dont believe you should be credited either with the original 4 room idea. Firkked, as seen in the quote below, was the first to actually mention the use of four rooms. maybe you thought of it before, maybe not, but Firkked posted it first so he should get the credit, or at least most of it.

 

I'm all for finding out the nuts and bolts of how the map works, I'm not sure that having people follow a pre-determined strategy can benefit the town over scum (eg anytime scum know where to find town it makes their job easier).

 

If a strategy for placement comes into discussion later that is obvious, brilliant and definitely works in favor of the Town I will change my opinion, otherwise I feel a maximum spread strategy may confuse more than help.

 

This is due to the connectedness of the map. A max spread would still give scum access to 3-5 people depending on the area.

 

Breaking up into groups where the scum can't move would help, if there were no pro-town power roles (eg agreeing to stay in only areas 1,4,7 and 8 as they are not connected to each other and scum couldn't move to any other group as they would be 2 moves away).

 

This is why I'm not convinced on a strategy for where people go for the night, other than being in areas 4 or 6 gives you the most areas to move to/from (good for scum, bad for town).

 

Also, EM - reasons for FOS?

I've read through the entire thing, and literally have determined nothing of people's roles.

 

I believe that we should separate into rooms 2,3,7,8 (I'm sure someone has already has said it).

This would break everyone up into 4 distinct groups, and 2 sub-groups. Thus, we have two sets of info to work with: immediate room, and neighboring room actions.

 

Also, I think lynching on the first day when the night is so ripe for investigation/information is silly.

 

Vote: No Lynch

 

Let's assign these rooms...

 

I gave the pros and cons of a lynch and no lynch provided mafia performs a nk on N1.

I still think a lynch is the way to go.

I've read through the entire thing, and literally have determined nothing of people's roles.

 

I believe that we should separate into rooms 2,3,7,8 (I'm sure someone has already has said it).

This would break everyone up into 4 distinct groups, and 2 sub-groups. Thus, we have two sets of info to work with: immediate room, and neighboring room actions.

 

Also, I think lynching on the first day when the night is so ripe for investigation/information is silly.

 

Vote: No Lynch

 

Let's assign these rooms...

 

Actually SJ, I think we chose 2, 3, 6, 9 then 1, 4, 7, 8 so we can explore all the rooms because if you do 2, 3, 7, 8 you can't explore all the rooms without having people in adjacent compartments