Aquinas

I should also add, my unvote is to help prevent an easy kill on either of these guys so close to the chopping block with this new information. I'd like to keep the mafia from being able to jump on any power roles this close to deadline.

Alright, I think we need to weigh out the validity of both our role claims now. Personally I am pretty convinced. It hits the theme which lends credence to its actual inclusion from the mod. Now, I'm not ready to jump on EM until we work this out with more townies. The worst lynches come from under-communicated bandwagons. I'd like to hear from Molestargazer and CannucksDynasty on the implications of the roleclaims. Although I am not as of yet 100% convinced for their towniness they are our big hitters in my experience and I'd like hear their thoughts on the situation before I condemn ElectricMango. Not to say you guys are on my suspicion list its just to early to call anyone town for sure. Unvote FOS: ElectricMango FOS: Angel of Doom

Why have you only specifically told us night kills now? This is what I mean about you leaking out information like you're just creating facts as they are needed to keep you alive. MOD CAN WE PLEASE HAVE A VOTE COUNT?

Assuming you have the ability to protect yourself, why are you concerned?

I just want to start by saying I am very uncomfortable jumping into the end of the day and voting like this. I don't like be pressured but I understand the necessity and I am prepared to do it. I am struck by one of the first posts in this thread from Electric Mango Not by the no lynch vote, I am happy to be in well after that debate is over, god spare me ever engaging in that circular argument again but, that he claimed he would be altering his play style. So, okay fine lets look for evidence of that. I don't see it. In the last game Electric Mango backed himself into a corner and continued to defend a loosing position on his way out. I didn't waver but instead stood his ground and was unable to convince enough that he was acting in the best interests of the town which if I remember correctly, he wasn't. I'm seeing this again here and here The defense of Angel of Doom is which is silly. If the real doc did call him out he'd be a very easy lynch target. I say that because of Angel of Doom's continued inability to defend his role claim articulately. I'll get into that lately. You claim he has enough experience to back up his role claim and that I can not verify being new to mafia on these forums but, if he were truthfully role claiming I think he would be able to to a better job of illustrating his own role and paraphrasing convincingly enough to show his true role. More on that later. Point is, this defense is flimsy and works backwards. This theory may be accurate and is probably a likely strategy employed by the scum. However, couldn't the scum have been the first votes for him deciding to target him for their own private reason. This is the same sort of reasoning Electric Mango used in the last game when he asserted a role claim should be made by the doctor. Coincidence? It was the same obvious look past alternatives and implications. If the scum hoped in to convict him early as a target or they just slyly hoped on in the middle are just as likely scenarios as the one Electric Mango examines. If scum need to look like town to win, wouldn't a good way to do that be to vote for scum candidates? That's a pretty pro town looking move, isn't it? There was a lot of anti-Kevin H sympathy at the time and meshing into that fold and hunting a popular scum target would appear pretty town like. FOS: Electric Mango As for Angel of Doom; Angel of Doom has done an awful job of role claiming. He has done nothing to show he is reading from a role PM in his posts. It seems very erratic and sloped together rather than the formality of a PM post. His continued evaluation of his self-saving power is what I would cite to demonstrate this No one ever inquired on the possible success rate. It seems like you're adding facts to make yourself sound more legit but, instead it just sounds like your making up facts like a guy in a lab coat on an infomercial when the fine print shows up "not a real doctor". I'm not nearly convinced. Your best defense comes from Electric Mango who I've already discussed. If you were the doctor with the ability to save yourself, why would you role claim? If you can save yourself, wait until night and do it. If you happened to make it to majority and got lynched worst case scenario is you'd save yourself and people would realize there existed a power role for the town which could save others. No targets for the scum identified, and we haven't lost a townie, not to mention a strong power role. Whats the point of role claiming here, I just don't see it. I want to find out if you actually have the power. If we lynch you and you don't have the power but are a townie, that would be a shame but, you're strange self vote and role claim combo don't make sense for a pro town strategy to me. I would not regret a decision to lynch you. If you are the doctor you save yourself and you can continue to help us in the future. If the scum target you every night for the rest of the game, great save yourself every night and we'll win if we're smart. If they are willing to target us other townies then we can actually use your power to its potential. I think it is in the towns best interest to test out your doctor ability, if you save yourself through the night I'll give you a happy good morning and would be happy to see a doctor other side. Otherwise, goodnight scum. Vote: Angel of Doom

No need, I'm here. Let me formulate something and I'll post something productive shortly.

Unable to hide any longer as a result of some intense explosions Aquinas steps out from behind the rubble. "Hey Everyone!" Let me think about whats going on (aka read all 21 pages of posts) and then I'll go ahead and tell you all who the mafia are .

Hurry up and get done! Someone kill someone, I want to play again!

I suppose that's what you get for controlling the town and kicking our butt into action. I think without Martino's case against Electric Mango the town may not have lynched him. I certainly lacked the balls to lock in a vote when I called him out prior to Martino. I would probably have let it slide if that case had not been made. Good game everybody. I'm bummed I missed Mage Wars but I was out of town during signups. Best of luck to you all! I'll be back around for another game soon.

Done. Vote: Falzis Clear conspiring with Electric Mango, the only confirmed scum. Drastic play style differences. -voting no lynch -dramatic rather than logically toned posts <Theory> -mafia goons must vote similarly together and can not vote once one is dead -confirms friendliness together -confirms immediate no lynch vote Sorry about this posts lameness but, im headed out of town right now. I will be gone over the weekend. Good luck.

You're right, poor choice of words on my part. I meant to convey that your choice to begin this discussion was in some way a validation of the choice for the doctor to roleclaim. That I think was weird, as I discussed. Sir Jesus has no free pass in my book. In fact I have a few suspicions about him. However, if he is scum and if you are scum I'll lynch you first to help squelch the scum influence over the townies. I believe that your basis for this is voting records. I doubt a smart scum team would always vote together. If your defense between you and Electric Mango is that although you have similar voting records you are not a team, this assumption that scum teams are not reflected in voting patterns would be inconsistent. Left out again.

I am not convinced of your scuminess. Thats why I am not voting for you. I am convinced of Electric Mango's scuminess. I am voting for him. I think you are both scum. I think you are both scum but as I go on to say I have no concrete evidence that you or KevinH are convincingly scum. That is not the case with Electric Mango, as I pointed out in the end of my previous post. I leave room to question the actions of both you and KevinH. To rephrase, I am not satisfied with the evidence for the lynching of Falzis or KevinH. Although I think both have demonstrated scummy actions I can not be convinced by their arguments. I am satisfied with the evidence to lynch Electric Mango. I am convinced Electric Mango is scum. There is more than one scum. Falzis and Electric Mango have an argumentative and voting relationship. I think Falzis is in league with Electric Mango. I think Falzis is scum. I think you are having trouble understanding that when I used the phrases "I think" and "I am convinced" I did not mean them to indicate the same degree of knowledge. I do not think he is scum for that reason. You did not purpose that doctor reveal strategy which is a big part of my voting for him. His actions in relation to that discussion are his own, entirely. You have no further scum tells except for your dealings with Electric Mango and your general aggressiveness to make accusations. This is not a scum tell. Before you go on a rant about how you're the only one benefiting the town because you are so aggressive remember I never said that makes you scum. It just makes you specific as you well know. Sticking your head out their makes you a target. Now that you have done that and Sojourner turned up scum my spotlight is on you as you no doubt knew it would be. I disagree with your process of scum hunting. Thats irrelevant and would distract our scum hunting, however we go about it. Its a difference in strategy not a scum tell. Yes, a solid defense can always be made to a solid argument. I don't think anyone has pinned more than a "you did this and it seems scummy" argument on KevinH. He has built logical deductions to his innocence when necessary but they are not necessary to quell your feelings. I think you're just trying to make me sound like a fool here. I may have been unclear, I am not convinced of your scuminess although I think it is likely. I meant to convey that "I think" and "I am convinced" are two different degrees of certainty.

You and Electric Mango voted and built a case against Sojourner twice. He was a townie. I'll keep my eyes on the two of you for now.

Hey there sorry. Well, I've been on KevinH's back this entire time. The first day I came very close to lynching him, although in retrospect that would have been silly. I disagreed with him but, he did nothing scummy. On Day 2 He had a hard time defending himself against Falzis's accusations. He broke down into some short and quick posts that said basically, "I'm not scum, believe me because its true." Falzis pointed that out recently, However, I am no longer convinced. I think I just have some issues with KevinH's play style non of which are scum tells. I don't like his defense and smugness here, And other such cases. Also, we have some strategy differences. However, this doesn't make him scum. He is much more experienced than me and I should keep that in mind. Further, I do not like the cases brought against him. I don't think there is sufficient evidence to lynch him thus, why I haven't actually voted for him thus far. The arguments that have been made against him as far as I can tell are and This is not evidence as far as I am concerned. We need to get passed gut checks at this point in the game, seeing as we've lynched two townies. Falzis, maybe KevinH has nothing to defend. Maybe he has no need for a long dramatic post to prove his innocence because he is afterall innocent until proven guilty which your long dramatic posts have not done. What is it exactly he is defending? I think he play style has reflected throughout this game as "I am townie. Believe it and deal with it". I don't think there has been a legitimate attack on his scumness to warrant a high magnitude defense. Especially if the only evidence that we have on him is what Electric Mango has pointed out. The quote he mislead with was incredibly insignificant. There are much more convincing arguments for others, which I will get to. he linked the whole page and used an excerpt to prove his point. He point of citing that source was so you could examine it yourself and disagree with it. Thats not misleading. The second incident you are referring to is not misleading either. It was just Falzis and KevinH disagreeing about inactive players. Falzis, thus far has impressed me. I'm not convinced he is town in the least but, he has built quality arguments that have been able to guide the town. Where he is guiding the town I am not sure. We had this debate Day 2 between Falzis and KevinH and I took his side because he was more articulate, but thats no longer relevant. I have dismissed this as a criteria because KevinH just doesn't post home run posts, hes a contact swinger and I like that. However, if I'm not convinced of KevinH as scum than I'm not convinced of Falzis for the same reason. I said there isn't enough evidence against Falzis to lynch either. I have not seen a convincing argument for his execution. What is your reasoning CannucksDynasty? You've got a vote on him and I am not sure of your reasoning. In response he asked You never answer from what I could find. You asked again for who he would vote for. I don't think you or anyone has provided adequate evidence against Falzis. I reject your intention of my vote for either KevinH or Falzis because I can not find evidence for either. If I had to choose? I'd flip a coin. However, I do intend to vote for someone as the night draws near. I like Martino am not satisfied with Electric Mango. His proposal to have the strong doctor role claim was very strange. I didn't see any validity in it and if it were a player who wasn't aware of the faults of the strategy they could have just bowed down and said it. I believe that was the intention. Electric Mango has defended, agreed with and used Falzis to assert his arguments the entire game. He was reluctant to weigh in on his proposed reveal of the doctor about whether it was a good idea or not. He asked us to say whether it was a good idea or not without all the information and then refused to do it himself without substantial pestering. I think Falzis and Electric Mango are scum. If there is a third I am unsure of who that might be. I find that the only person with more than a "he said she said" accusation or defense on their head is Electric Mango. Their consistent targeting of Sojourner which i fell victim to on Day 2 is another tie which binds their interests. There was so little evidence for him on day one I don't understand how its a coincidence they happened upon their votes together. Then, Electric Mango voted for him again on Day 2 with Falzis' direction. It seems these two are playing a game together. I have not seen enough evidence to pin a lynch on Falzis however, I am suspicious. Electric Mango's voting record for Sojourner, his arguments with Falzis and his discussion of a strategy which had obvious flaws his experience should have detected put him at the top of my list. Vote: Electric Mango FOS: Falzis

I'm not convinced. This entire post is a straw man argument for the question I addressed to you. Something like, what are your opinions? Do you condone this strategy etc etc. I don't care right now what roles could still be out there. Odds are its just the strong doctor left. The nature of that role is not what I asked for. I asked for your opinion on whether or not you condone role claiming as you purposed. But okay, maybe what your said wasn't crazy left field in addressing my question. However, you seem a bit dodgy to get a solid yes or no to role claiming out there. I don't care if you don't have all the facts. No one does. I never asked you to. Just give us your opinion on this theory. You certainly have defended both sides so pick one. If you think the doctor should role claim right now, say so. No one knows what the strong doctor knows and they can't tell us without role claiming. Do you think the pros outweigh the cons or not because you've illustrated quite a few of each. You asked us So I want to know definitively right now, considering all that you have said: Is it a good idea or is it a bad idea for the strong doctor to role claim? Would you recommend the doctor role claims right now? VOTE COUNT Falzis (3): KevinH, Theophilos, CanucksDynasty Sir Jesus (1): Electric Mango Electric Mango (1): Martino KevinH (1): Falzis Not Voting (4): Narsis, Kaziocore, Aquinas, Sir Jesus

FOS Electric Mango

I'm removing my lynch for Kaziocore. UNVOTE This is because of some holes in my own reasoning. I concluded that because I could not understand the killing pattern of the mafia, the mafia could not know either. However, Kaziocore is obviously not alone. Duh. That was just dumb I didn't put that together before. Further, if I were scum I would be telling Kaziocore what to say so that I could get his neck out there rather than mine. Thats not happening. Kaziocore isn't doing the mafia any good right now. If he were mafia I think he would have more to say because he was being pumped intelligence. I also think his admission of ignorance is genuine and I'm believing it at this point. He sacrificed himself and that is noble but, looking at the numbers we have left a sacrifice is not what we need. We need to find scum, a sacrifice and killing Kaziocore will not grant us much new information as far as I can see. Martino, I understand your point. However, as you go on to say the numbers are not in our favor. Seeing as I think Kaziocore is townie and we're on a loosing streak lynching so far, accepting his sacrifice is not the best option. I'm not giving him a free pass I'm just not lynching him without evidence. As for ElectricMango. I don't think I was thinking clearly before. I don't find your justifications so far up to par. It may seem weak to be so wishy washy but, I'm confident in saying, "what are you thinking?" I just don't get it, nor do a lot of us. I really think there are way to many holes in this idea for it to be plausible. Your defense thus far has boiled down to claiming So, lets hear your position on this strategy then? Do you really condone it? Are you against it and just bringing it up? Pick a side, we're at war. You must weigh in on this, you can't get away with just bringing it up and not having an opinion. You're smart enough to see through all the pitfalls of the idea and I will hold you to that standard. What was your rationale for bringing this up and it better be better than

Alright, I'll UNVOTE. I most definitely do not agree about a role claim except in the extreme case where the role has extraordinary revealable information such as identities. I'll reassert my previous opinions and VOTE: Kaziocore.

You right, my vote was rash. I need your clarification however, I'm not completely convinced how this move could help the town. Has it? Yes, in your example. I don't see how it could benefit us here. My underlying intention more clearly, is to establish the possible frivolity of the doctor revealing himself. I would not like to see that choice be rash. I think your pros are definitely needed work. First, we would know a townie for sure. What good does that do beyond this day? None, because they'll be dead. What does it do for this day? Probably, none. This is offset by your second pro. The doctor would only reveal themselves if they had significant knowledge. It better be extremely relevant. The names of all the townies would be good but, I doubt even if they posses that knowledge its revealable. Someone is going to be night killed anyway. Are you condemning the doctor so easily. If we need to drop a townie it should be Kaziocore who volunteered and is willing. Assuming he isn't the strong doc, I think this is a better solution. Those are my thoughts, the cons being self evident. So, how do you find that these pros are beneficial? I'm not assuming that I am necessarily right, I'd just like to know.

I agree. Its way to early for that last ditch effort. With the odds narrowing and our inability so far to pick out a solid string of evidence against anyone we need everything we can get. If we have a doc left we need that chance for savior more than we do any bit of information they have. Plus, aren't we barred from revealing anything in our role PMs so I would question whether that information is even legal to the rest of us. Plus, you are arguing that because the cop had information on day one the doctor must. The roles are completely different in the type of information they would posses inherently. I doubt the doctor has any strong scum hunting information. The strong doc role is more powerful than any bit of possible, not likely information they have. I'm not impressed with this idea at all ElectricMango. In fact, it upsets me a little bit. You're a loud player with a lot of upfront opinions and you draw a lot of attention. I like your play style, it gets a lot accomplished. If we had a lot of players like me who don't post nearly as often, we wouldn't be anywhere. You're a strong player but, you've gone to far this time. Revealing the power role would only allow the mafia to pick off the most important one of us. There are to many problems with this strategy for me to understand why an experienced player like you, would offer it. As clear as you were about your opinions on the no lynch debate, I'm surprised you endorse this one. Things just don't add up for me here. I'm pretty sure I once stated, "I'll never vote for ElectricMango." I said that because I trust you and I think you're a good player but, this is something that just won't fly with me. UNVOTE Vote: ElectricMango If you can further justify your reasoning and redirect my attention, I'll retract my vote.

Alright, CanucksDynasty you asked me who I would vote for if I had to right now. If that were the case, I would vote for Kaziocore. I would do so because, he has recently volunteered himself if we cannot find scum and as far as I see it, we can't. Is Kaziocore specifically scummy? No. I'm not really concerned about him being scum at all by his actions. However, it seems that the scum who have killed so far have targeted low risk townies. Although they got a couple lucky hits, it doesn't seem that those they killed showed any overt townie tells. I'm not sure why the townies who have been killed thus far were selected. If I were scum I would have targeted ElectricMango and probably Martino. That is also to say, I find them to be pretty likely townie candidates at this point. Anyway, my point being I don't find that the scum kills have been very well founded and (and I don't mean to antagonize the scum here) without clear pattern. I think they would have some sort of strategy but, I don't see it. I think this follows with Kaziocore's level of experience. Nor do I mean to antagonize you Kaziocore, but I think that follows with your own admission of inexperience. Now, why does my vote differ now from my suspects when I last answered your question to pick two? That's because I don't find that either SirJesus or KevinH have done anything to deserve a vote. I can't vote for SirJesus until I hear more from him. My suspicions on his actions have not been defended or fleshed out as of yet. I'm concerned about SirJesus's motivation but, the bit he has defended of it wards off my vote for now. I'm not convinced he isn't scum but I'm convinced he has done anything scummy enough to warrant a vote. KevinH has not done anything to tip the scales on D3 either. I think he has a solid case against Falzis, as does Theophilos. He has stuck his vote on him thus far and I'm impressed by his consistency. So, I'll lock in on Kaziocore. He volunteered himself. His play ability could be consistent with scum kills. If I end up making a mistake, I'd rather him than others. I'm still critical of Sir Jesus and I am looking for him to have some significant pro town posts before the end of the day. Otherwise, I may be voting for you by the end of day. VOTE: Kaziocore

I agree, I think lynching him gives some very important information. I just meant, your vote still leans towards Sir Jesus when I am the only one in disagreement with you about Falzis (Although I am not to strongly convinced about my position either). I'm glad to have built up at least a small amount more confidence with you than Sir Jesus.

I'm surprised to hear you say that when I still don't have a vote registered for Falzis. I'm just not exactly clear on the reasoning against Falzis. I understand that we learn those things from lynching him but, whats the rationale for lynching him in the first place?

Oh boy. I'm the only one who didn't vote for Falzis...I feel my life span shortening. I didn't "vote" for him because I don't find that trying to clear his name is solid enough evidence to condemn him as scum. Wouldn't that be the intention of anyone? Trying to save themselves? Is there some other reason that I missed. What is the current case everyone has with Falzis?

No one asked for my opinion, which makes me a little sad...Here it is anyway: I'm not so convinced that Falzis is scum. His voting on Day 2 shows no bandwagoning. In fact, his votes jump around and seem to point to him examining a series of viewpoints and challenges. I haven't noticed anything particularly scumy about him. However, I am interested in his reaction to his post about how confident he was with Sojourner. Seeing that we aren't clearing anyones name now, where does this leave us according to his logic. I don't feel like that was a such a coordinated attempt to get us all on Sojourner. I think it was more genuine than that. It doesn't seem that he was intentionally misleading further, his case was built on reason not feeling which leads me to believe he is not looking to pull our bloodthirsty lynch desires, which would seem appropriate for a scum. However, I am impressed with Martino, Theophilos and KevinH's conviction and their continued lynch vote in light of all other evidence. What made you so convinced and what locked you down? I'd like to get a better opinion on him. I'm not so impressed with Electric Mango so far. I'm not close enough to call him scum but, I am uncertain about his pattern in voting. He jumped over on Nerau out of no where and I remember not being to sold on his reasons at the time. He seems townie enough but, I think my judgment is a little clouded because he seems to have solid experience and being new, that throws me off a bit. I'd say the most two likely scum are Sir Jesus and Kevin H. Sir Jesus based on his voting pattern and activity. He stuck with Kevin H right up until the end and finally finished off Sojourner. This is a risky call for him because this reflects my voting pattern as well. However, I find our cases to be a bit different. I don't feel that I have heard enough from Sir Jesus to justify is flop to Sojourner at the end. Based on his low amount of rationale and late day vote flop i'll rest my suspicion on him for now. As for Kevin H, I know I have been on his case all game and thats why I'm sticking with him now. He has just rubbed me the wrong way all game. Going back to day one, he didn't cave and hop on with the lynch strategy the rest of us townies needed. On day two I feel like he did a poor job of keeping up his own defense and building a respectable case against Falzis.