lilweirdward

The last sentence really boggles my mind. How could his action have been more scummy in hindsight than in the moment? With the benefit of hindsight, we know that Kevin was town, so his actions should seem less scummy since, well, they obviously weren't scummy at all lol. This is the kind of thing that scum would think because in the moment they obviously knew that Kevin wasn't scum, but looking back you can try to sympathize with why town suspected him. Idk dude, you've really done nothing since the end of D2 that's made yourself less suspicious. My gut says that you're a townie that made a weird comment and you're just doing an awful job of explaining your way out of it, but I don't feel remotely confident about that.

These people need to start taking sides. Instant FoS to anyone who doesn't vote today, and we only have a few more RL days until the day ends. Don't necessarily need everyone to vote right this minute, but some of these people haven't even posted today, much less given any FoS or indicated who they're suspicious of.

I'll try to respond to some stuff in a bit, but can we get a vote count? It feels like town is very split and there are people sitting on the sidelines for this debate.

I'm not saying that you killing Tony would have been the result of a complete lack of thought. You were very clear in D2 that you thought Tony should not have been allowed to play, and you at least have a recent history of using night actions to sabotage and even kill players that you don't think should be playing, especially with brewers. It's also possible that you assumed that you wouldn't be suspected for killing Tony after voting for him, or believed that you're good enough that you could explain yourself out of the situation. In any case, I didn't mean what I said as an insult. You're one of the most experienced players, but even experienced players make mistakes or give scum tells on accident. Again, I'm not saying it's impossible that someone is using your behavior in D2 to frame you, but I also don't think it's necessarily the most plausible explanation either.

I do agree with that, it's the only thing that's making me doubt my vote at all. Since Robert was very vocal about his disdain of Tony being allowed to play, it wouldn't have taken much for a savvy scum leader to realize that killing Tony would put a huge target on Robert's back. To be honest, I think it's just as likely that Robert didn't think about the fallout that would come from killing Tony until after the day started and people got upset about it, especially since he clutched so hard to Kevin's wagon so early which feels like a tell like brewers explained, but I can't be 100% sure about that.

Sorry, I've been following the game in email but I've had a busy weekend and haven't been able to log on and post. Going to dig up a few old posts that stuck out to me. Wait, so you would have claimed a single action that gave town zero information but implicated yourself in having visited the person who was night killed, then tried to start a lynch train on someone because of a single lol vote, then abandoned it and pushed for no lynch as a last ditch attempt to save yourself? And...that's something that town would have done? Sorry, I just don't buy it at all. I mean clearly Kevin just played badly and then didn't know how to get himself out of his own hole (and even dug it further a few times), but that was extremely not obvious yesterday, and I think it's disingenuous to make it seem like everyone should have figured that out. This is a dangerous mindset if you're town. Ignoring the fact that a Voyeur is not the easiest role claim for town to prove anyway, he easily could have been a mafia voyeur with a safe claim, so proving his role would not have confirmed him as town. This game is probably a role madness game, and you can bet that scum will try to come up with role claims that make town think they should avoid lynching them. We can't let people off the hook for blatantly scummy actions just because they made a claim that we can't disprove. It's not personality, it's the fact that he said multiple times in D2 that he thinks Tony should have mod killed or replaced, and complained when he was allowed back in the game. He made it pretty clear that he didn't want Tony to be playing (seemingly for OOC reasons) and I think that makes him more suspicious given that Tony was killed the following night. As everyone has pointed out, there is no real reason that Tony should have been killed - if anything, there were reasons for mafia to keep him alive - so I don't think that Robert's stated motives should be ignored, especially in context of him trying to tie himself to Kevin so hard. This makes no sense to me. How could you tell that he's not scum if you also thought he was acting scummy? Yeah this is actually a smart observation and I noticed it too, at least in terms of jazzy reluctantly joining the wagon after a bit of pressure to vote. They weren't jumbled, but tbh it all felt like faux scum hunting to me. An attempt to seem to be putting a ton of energy into making lists and analyzing play, but in reality, all of the analysis was very superficial, imho. I mean part of your reasoning for suspecting jazzy was that he doesn't have a profile picture, and in your reasoning for darkfox, you just listed a lot of pro town behavior lol. It could just be bad analysis, but it doesn't make me less suspicious of you. ----------------------- Well, that was Preston levels of a lot of text lol. I'll try to post more actively now that the weekend is over.

I do agree that the kill of Tony was either a cynical play to frame Robert, or Robert taking out someone that he didn't want to be in the game. I'm leaning towards the latter because of his actions in D2, especially his belief in Kevin that never seemed to be grounded in any evidence or play, but I do think it's possible that he simply got obsessed with Tony as a townie and a smart scum took advantage of that.

Robert immediately jumped on Kevin's wagon of Tony for no reason except that he didn't think he should be allowed to play, and made multiple comments implying he was confident that Kevin was town without any justification. Honestly I was really suspicious of Robert throughout the day, and the fact that Tony was killed has cemented my suspicions, because I think he's exactly the kind of person who would do that. Vote: Robert Also, FoS: Velocity for avoiding hammering Kevin. One other thing: no one else who died has surrendered an infinity stone, right? Does that make sense given who has died? I don't keep up with Marvel enough to say if Tony Stark or Black Widow should have had an infinity stone or not.

It feels like several people are conveying a lot of confidence that Kevin is town without really giving any reasoning, other than referencing Kevin's experience, which doesn't really mean much in terms of whether he would be scum or not. Obviously, Kevin could be town, but between... Making a claim that adds nothing to town at all, and then giving no real reason for it other than sparking conversation Admitting that the claim was partially motivated by a desire to avoid a tracker having seen him visit the killed (why wouldn't there be another killer who the tracker would also see? does he know that mafia has a ninja role?)Making a really thin push to lynch someone who couldn't defend themselves and then backing off of the lynch train at the last minute once Tony showed up...​and plenty of other generally suspicious activity since the day started, I feel like the evidence in favor of Kevin being town is as good as any town will ever get on D2 outside of a claimed result from a cop. Honestly, does anyone have an actual good reason for why we shouldn't lynch Kevin today, other than we don't have a 100% bulletproof cop claim proving that he's scum? I was the first person to call out Kevin's behavior for being suspicious. I could see someone thinking that me pushing for Kevin as hard as I have is possibly scummy (it's not, I'm just pretty convinced that we hit scum and don't want to waste a day on a mislynch), but I honestly don't see how someone could think that I have just been riding the wagon without contributing.

What's OMGUS mean? seriously lol..... https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Omgus Basically just means that you voted for someone for no reason other than because they voted for you. Generally it's considered a very newbie thing to do because it's not a legitimate reason to vote someone, and most experienced players are used to being voted for and won't get so annoyed by it.

Lol oh lord, an OMGUS vote from the newbie. IRON mafia really is back.

When is Bryan supposed to be back? Also @Velocity what are you doing today? I feel like you've been really quiet too.

TW has definitely done it before. I'm pretty sure he gave me a safe claim in https://ironcentral.org/community/topic/64644-tw-12-agents-of-shield-mafia-hydra-wins'>his last game where I was mafia, but I don't have the role pm anymore to confirm, at least from mobile. This doesn't mean that Black Widow definitely is a safe claim - I agree that TW likes mixing up his setups and keeping everyone on their toes - but I also don't think it should be dismissed as a very real possibility.

Can you explain why Tony would be your strongest suspect? You haven't given any real reasons for voting him at all except that you think he's a better candidate than Kevin (and also OOC reasons that I don't think are fair). That's fine and a semi-valid reason to vote someone, but it's a big leap to go from "no better candidate available" to "strongest scum suspect" seemingly overnight.

Well then you've played with a style that is detrimental to the town, and you should knock it off lol. Tony has only actually tried like this once, and he was town, so for now I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I have to question if you've read anything in this game. Just because you have a silly seal for an avatar dosen't mean you need to act like one.Hahaha. I was thinking the same thing, like how did Lyner just completely miss that Tony has been banned from the entire forums for the past week or two? Dude. Avoiding taking a position and voting at all is insanely sus. You can't hammer Kevin yet, but you can get him closer and also ensure that a single unvote doesn't prevent him from being deadline day lynched, or you could put him and Tony at a tie (even though I have zero idea why anyone is voting for Tony at this point other than to lynch someone other than Kevin, which in and of itself feels very sus to me). Your vote is very meaningful, but the absence of your vote is also meaningful in that it lets you keep playing without any legit evidence of your opinions on people who could flip town or scum after today, which is super scummy imo. So, FoS: Jazzy

iSoc got killed last night. Kevin voyeur'ed iSoc and immediately claimed it. Probably why he's not posting lol

I mean tbh Robert could also be voting for Tony because he and Kevin are both scum and he's trying to help his scum buddy out lol. Gonna be one of the nice things about seeing if Kevin really does flip scum or not.

We don't, and if Kevin does flip scum, then Robert would immediately be suspect #1 for me.

Yeah tbh everything Kevin has said has made me more sure that he's scum. The only thing left is for him to OMGUS vote me or brewers for pushing to get him lynched.

I appreciate the honestly lol but this alone should get you lynched today, and it's wild that you admitted it.

Both of these are not good ideas. For Kevin, he can be telling the truth about his role and still be mafia, since voyeur does not have to be town aligned. Additionally, if he is mafia and they have any other power roles, he can be lying about his role but simply say that he tracked whoever was the target of their other role, and we would not be able to tell unless a tracker is able to follow Kevin and confirm his movements. Basically, we should absolutely not assume that an inability to prove his claim fake means that he's town. That's super dangerous and how town loses games like this. Also, asking people to name claim in games that are heavily themed like this is generally considered poor form, if not outright scummy, since there's a good chance that the names could be important from a gameplay perspective. Besides, even if there is another protective role in the game, there's no guarantee that they would successfully protect someone (lots of things can break protection for scum), and it also puts everyone else at risk when the mafia feels confident that they know who is being protected and can target everyone else at will. And all of that being said, games usually don't have more than one town-aligned protective role unless there are multiple scum factions, so without any evidence of that, we are probably safest to assume that we're out of protective roles unless evidence comes up that proves otherwise.

How do we know what his role was? Just because his character name starts with "doctor", doesn't mean his role was doctor. No, it says his role after his name. Important part bolded. TW can correct us if we're wrong, but listing the player's role like this is extremely common. A voyeur can only target one player each night, and will only learn the actions taken on that player. If we assume Kevin's claim is true, then the only thing he knows is that someone killed iSoc, which we obviously already knew, hence why several of us are saying that his claim is useless and unnecessary for town. He can't know anything else about any other protective actions that iSoc or anyone else may have taken last night.

iSoc was the doctor, so no one is getting protected anymore unless we also have a jailer or something.

I have a lot to catch up on. It honestly feels like this might be a role madness game, so maybe no lynching yesterday will end up working out. I have something interesting to share. I am Black Widow, an Avenger Voyeur. Last night I targeted iSocialism and indeed a kill action was performed. IMO there is zero reason to role claim for this except to buy townie cred. This is literally the most useless thing you possibly could have shared, and you're too experienced to not know that, so the only half decent explanation is that you're hoping people assume a Voyeur who tracked the kill must be town. Vote: KevinH