194 replies to this topic

[ccabal86]

But we still should have left them to decide their own shit rather than draw lines in the sand and promote false nationalism in borders that weren't even well thought up.

Nationalism was never an issue in the Middle East, sectarianism was and is. The roots of that far preceeds any "western" meddling

There is to discuss if I disagree
 
http://ammanmessage.com/media/openLetter/english.pdf
 

There is no Compulsion in Religion
You mention that “according to the experts” the verse which begins, There is no compulsion in religion (al-Baqarah
:) is from the early period when the Prophet “was still powerless and under threat,” but this is incorrect. In fact
this verse is acknowledged to belong to the period of Quranic revelation corresponding to the political and military
ascendance of the young Muslim community. There is no compulsion in religion was not a command to Muslims to
remain steadfast in the face of the desire of their oppressors to force them to renounce their faith, but was a reminder
to Muslims themselves, once they had attained power, that they could not force another’s heart to believe. There is
no compulsion in religion addresses those in a position of strength, not weakness. The earliest commentaries on the
Qur’an (such as that ofAl-Tabari) make it clear that some Muslims of Medina wanted to force their children to convert
from Judaism or Christianity to Islam, and this verse was precisely an answer to them not to try to force their
children to convert to Islam. Moroever, Muslims are also guided by such verses as Say: The truth is from your Lord;
so whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. (al-Kahf :); and Say: O disbelievers! I
worship not that which ye worship; Nor worship ye that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
Nor will ye worship that which I worship. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion (al-Kafirun: :-).

That quote is not about Atheism. Bolded for emphasis

O disbelievers! I worship not that which ye worship; Nor worship ye that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which ye worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

It clearly applies to theists only. But I'm not debating that early Islam was generally tolerant of other religions (mostly monotheistic ones, as it saw Jews and Christians somewhat misguided followers of Allah, but were less lenient with politheistic and tribal religions). What I'm saying is that Atheism is not a construct that Islam even comprehends. But if we start from the premise that "Muslims believe that the creation of everything in the universe was brought into being by God's sheer command, "'Be' and so it is," and that the purpose of existence is to worship God." then we can conclude that Atheism is not something that is looked upon favorably.

The closest is Apostasy, and to put it mildly, it's not very recommended: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
Also see the article I previously linked
Also, Salman Rushdie

[Fox Fire]

Nationalism was never an issue in the Middle East, sectarianism was and
is. The roots of that far preceeds any "western" meddling

True, but I still think the Sykes-Pikot agreement and and Balfour Declaration are single biggest things wrong with the middle east and the whole reason theres a hate for the west. Hence why we should just leave and let them sort it out themselves. Will people die? Of course, but people are going to die no matter what way we go about this. Surely the cradle of civilization can sort out its own problems.

[Robert2424]

 

 

 

After seeing what the Prophet Mohammad 's  followers do to people , I have come to the conclusion that he is not the kind of god that I want . I will stick to the GOD that I have.

 

It used to be that those that died for freedom, died on the battlefield. It seems the battlefield has been brought to them. These French victims are no different. God rest their souls. Let us honor them in the name of freedom. 

 

3T

Let's not demonize Islam in comparison to other religions. Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody and ridiculous. The only difference is the times and cultural evolution. Christians can't go around burning witches, stoning homosexuals and launching crusades anymore because religion is dying in the west and things are becoming more liberal.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Salafi/Wahhabi movement is a pretty new thing that popped up in opposition to this global liberalization.  Even most Salafists are opposed to this type of crap. Islam should not be defined by the actions of a few dick heads. That's like defining Christianity based on the actions of the KKK or Westburo Baptist Church or one of the other countless Christian sects that are insane.

 

 

I don't follow your point thatf Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody as modern Islamist extremism.  Did Christianity and Judaism retain its membership by threatening to execute anyone who left their religion? Remember, this is according to the example set by Muhammad.  Does Christianity and Judaism teach that those who were not Jewish or Christian are less than fully human? Muhammad said that Muslims can be put to death for murder, but that a Muslim could never be put to death for killing a non-Muslim. 

 

I am not speaking about all Muslims, but this extremist ideology of hatred towards other religions and killing those that do not believe in "Allah". These extremists continue their Jihad against other religions for hundreds of years, checked by the ability of non-Muslims to defend themselves. To this day, not a week goes by that Islamic fundamentalists do not attempt to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists explicity in the name of Allah. 

 

3T

 

You should read the bible. Both the Torah and Bible specifically state that non-believers should all be killed on numerous occasions. Hell, the bible even tells you to kill your kids if they curse at you, stone your daughter if shes not a virgin on her wedding day, and even exterminate entire towns if even one person among them is a non-believer.

The difference is that while the world has become more liberal, the Muslim culture has stayed relatively the same, because unlike Christianity, Islam cannot be edited or changed. The Quran and Sharia remain the way they were written, unlike the bible.

The west inevitably created this problem when we dissolved the Ottoman Empire. We should have never done that.

This extremist ideology is entirely based on that particular event in history.

 

Whoa, I have to comment on this one. the Torah says that. I've have never seen that anywhere within the Bible. Anywhere. That would be a direct contradiction to what it says. I have never seen any verses in the bible like the ones you describe here Fox Fire. 

 

 

 

 

So, let me point something out about the middle east. Its a completely different culture there then in the United States. Religion is very important to these people and compared to Religion in the United States or in Europe, we are very laid back. There are really 2 type of islamic beliefs. There are those who believe but think they should be nice. There are good islamic people. Then you have the extremists. Like al qaeda. They are different, and the more outspoken or more active people will heard and remembered more than the less quiet ones. That being said, both types thinks the other is despicable and hypocritical. Religion is more important than life in the middle east. Over here, its a laid back thing that doesn't compare. 

 

There is no solution in the Middle East. At least none that "The Western World" could come up with. Because ideals are completely different. But turning our head and letting them work out their problems isn't a solution either. The basic principles that forge who we are, don't hold up to these peoples standards. If we decide just to pull completely out of the Middle East, It would look like some parts of Africa. Absolute Chaos and Genocide. Which could last 100 years or longer there. Our Involvement merely delays the chaos that the middle east is. This area is going to remain like this unless a Group emerges that isn't Extremists from there, and can gain just as much power and support as the extremist groups out there. I highly doubt such a group can emerge. America is merely peacekeepers, who install these Democracies with no backbone or foundation like we have here. I can't think of scenario that we could install any government anywhere with backbone and foundation that can hold up. 

 

War is second hand human nature. Fueled by money, motive, land, and ambition. Nobody goes to war without these things. Go in half heartedly into war, and it can and probably will eat you alive. 

[Fox Fire]

 

 

 

 

After seeing what the Prophet Mohammad 's  followers do to people , I have come to the conclusion that he is not the kind of god that I want . I will stick to the GOD that I have.

 

It used to be that those that died for freedom, died on the battlefield. It seems the battlefield has been brought to them. These French victims are no different. God rest their souls. Let us honor them in the name of freedom. 

 

3T

Let's not demonize Islam in comparison to other religions. Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody and ridiculous. The only difference is the times and cultural evolution. Christians can't go around burning witches, stoning homosexuals and launching crusades anymore because religion is dying in the west and things are becoming more liberal.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Salafi/Wahhabi movement is a pretty new thing that popped up in opposition to this global liberalization.  Even most Salafists are opposed to this type of crap. Islam should not be defined by the actions of a few dick heads. That's like defining Christianity based on the actions of the KKK or Westburo Baptist Church or one of the other countless Christian sects that are insane.

 

 

I don't follow your point thatf Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody as modern Islamist extremism.  Did Christianity and Judaism retain its membership by threatening to execute anyone who left their religion? Remember, this is according to the example set by Muhammad.  Does Christianity and Judaism teach that those who were not Jewish or Christian are less than fully human? Muhammad said that Muslims can be put to death for murder, but that a Muslim could never be put to death for killing a non-Muslim. 

 

I am not speaking about all Muslims, but this extremist ideology of hatred towards other religions and killing those that do not believe in "Allah". These extremists continue their Jihad against other religions for hundreds of years, checked by the ability of non-Muslims to defend themselves. To this day, not a week goes by that Islamic fundamentalists do not attempt to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists explicity in the name of Allah. 

 

3T

 

You should read the bible. Both the Torah and Bible specifically state that non-believers should all be killed on numerous occasions. Hell, the bible even tells you to kill your kids if they curse at you, stone your daughter if shes not a virgin on her wedding day, and even exterminate entire towns if even one person among them is a non-believer.

The difference is that while the world has become more liberal, the Muslim culture has stayed relatively the same, because unlike Christianity, Islam cannot be edited or changed. The Quran and Sharia remain the way they were written, unlike the bible.

The west inevitably created this problem when we dissolved the Ottoman Empire. We should have never done that.

This extremist ideology is entirely based on that particular event in history.

 

Whoa, I have to comment on this one. the Torah says that. I've have never seen that anywhere within the Bible. Anywhere. That would be a direct contradiction to what it says. I have never seen any verses in the bible like the ones you describe here Fox Fire. 

 

 

 

 

So, let me point something out about the middle east. Its a completely different culture there then in the United States. Religion is very important to these people and compared to Religion in the United States or in Europe, we are very laid back. There are really 2 type of islamic beliefs. There are those who believe but think they should be nice. There are good islamic people. Then you have the extremists. Like al qaeda. They are different, and the more outspoken or more active people will heard and remembered more than the less quiet ones. That being said, both types thinks the other is despicable and hypocritical. Religion is more important than life in the middle east. Over here, its a laid back thing that doesn't compare. 

 

There is no solution in the Middle East. At least none that "The Western World" could come up with. Because ideals are completely different. But turning our head and letting them work out their problems isn't a solution either. The basic principles that forge who we are, don't hold up to these peoples standards. If we decide just to pull completely out of the Middle East, It would look like some parts of Africa. Absolute Chaos and Genocide. Which could last 100 years or longer there. Our Involvement merely delays the chaos that the middle east is. This area is going to remain like this unless a Group emerges that isn't Extremists from there, and can gain just as much power and support as the extremist groups out there. I highly doubt such a group can emerge. America is merely peacekeepers, who install these Democracies with no backbone or foundation like we have here. I can't think of scenario that we could install any government anywhere with backbone and foundation that can hold up. 

 

War is second hand human nature. Fueled by money, motive, land, and ambition. Nobody goes to war without these things. Go in half heartedly into war, and it can and probably will eat you alive. 

 

I really dont want to turn this into a Christian bashing thread. But I've read the bible, and that's exactly why I stopped being a Christian. I could post a wall of quotes from the bible, but I already did this on the OWF to the displeasure of many Christians and Jews. Equally, I can post a wall of identical quotes from the Quran.

 

As for the middle east and different types of Muslims.... Here's the thing:

Islam is not like Judaism and Christianity in the sense that Islam is a much broader belief. It's not just a religion, it's a way of life complete with a political ideology and law. America would be pretty simaler to a Muslim state if the Church were in charge.

The study of the Quran and it's interpretation is an ongoing debate. Always has been. This is where you get most of the disagreements you see among Muslims about the religion. 

[Lysistrata]

Okay I'm out of this one... I'm really cut and dry about my views, and debating religion is not my thing.

I do agree with Shah on the "my evil > than your evil" thing, I understand where he's coming from.

I'm very sad about what happened in France, and I hope us Americans support their resolution.

[onbekende]

You know, Marine LePen is right on this one. Time to dust off the guillotines.

small chance its IS, they would have made a video about it already >_>

 

also, no.

[onbekende]

 

I'm afraid people are getting numb to this. This is an outrage, and it has to end. It's getting to where everyone just expects it to happen and shrugs it off as "well it was only 12"... "at least no one lost their head"... "it was them, and not us".
 
Muslims are migrating. More into Europe than anywhere else, and they intend to take over. My position became clear on 9/11 when I saw my city of Las Vegas in a single day... vacated. Empty. As in ghost town. The largest tourist city in the world changed over night.
 
There are two kinds of Muslims. The ones that hate you, and the ones that want to kill you.
Declare worldwide, Islam is a form of government and treat it as such. Until we take this dead serious, we will have more deaths.

In which category of Muslim do I fall, do tell.

 

the cudly ones

[ccabal86]

small chance its IS, they would have made a video about it already >_>

Supposedly it was AQ not IS

[onbekende]

 

small chance its IS, they would have made a video about it already >_>

Supposedly it was AQ not IS

 

yeah just saying, not enough mediacircus afterwards. AQ is plausible but no suicide nor bombs used (unlessperhaps some grenades for the bangs) and the perpetrators used bulletresistant jackets aswell.

[Fox Fire]

 

small chance its IS, they would have made a video about it already >_>

Supposedly it was AQ not IS

 

 

 

 

(CNN)Hooded gunmen dressed in black burst into the office of French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo Wednesday, killing 12 people in a coordinated strike and escaping onto the streets of Paris.

The
three suspects behind the attack have been identified, Paris Deputy
Mayor Patrick Klugman told CNN. Two of them are brothers.

French authorities vowed to step up security and apprehend those responsible.

"Everything
will be done to arrest (the attackers)," French President Francois
Hollande said in a speech Wednesday night. "... We also have to protect
all public places. Security forces will be deployed everywhere there can
be the beginning" of a threat.

It's too soon to say whether the suspects were operating alone, CNN terrorism analyst Paul Cruickshank said.

Some
experts warned that how well the gunmen wielded their weapons, hid
their identities and apparently planned their escape showed a marked
difference form other "lone wolf" attacks -- and could be a game
changer.

Latest update at 5:10 p.m. ET

• Klugman did not name the suspects, but said they were 34, 32 and 18 and from a suburb outside Paris.

 

IDK. Seems lone wolf-ish to me.

[onbekende]

seems to be the Jemen AQ branch.

[Lanyaie]

18 years....the guy hasn't even lived part of his life and has already ruined it. That's sad.

[Yehom]

The fact that this discussing turned into a discussion about religion bothers me. The people responsible are using their religion as a 'justification', I'm under the impression that they use it as an excuse. To the absolute core, all monotheistic religion are the same: they tell the story of the creation of man and the way man should behave and live. Nothing more, nothing less. Go to a mosque, a church or a synagogue and ask any random person there what is the meaning of religion and basically all answers will consist of that 1 little line. In every religion killing is a sin, but for some reason over time people, and in the earlier times in history very powerful people (the Popes), have (mis-)used religion as a justification for violence. Believe me that the crusades in Medieval times to Palestina/Israel are not such a different thing from what is happening nowadays: people are using their believe, their interpretation of their religion as an excuse to wage war. I can guarantee you that in no religious book the act of violence is condoned. I hear people say that the Quran does have, but I dear you to actually learn the Arabic language and translate, in absolute wording and in context, what it is actually saying. It is all about interpretation. Because the Torah, the Bible, the Quran and any other religious book are books that have been written years thousands of years ago, their wording can't be explained by those who have written it down. It may be the word of God in the eyes of many, but in absolute reality it is still man that has written it down, and who says that man didn't alter the wordings of 'God' in the process? Who even says that your interpretation of the words of God aren't the opposite of what he means/meant?

 

As I see it these people, IS, Al Qaida, whoever is involved, are waging war using religion as an excuse. They could believe in the easter bunny and use that as the reason why they are doing what they are doing. I can absolutely guarantee you that none of these actions are justified in any religious book and should be justified by anything. They think they are doing to 'right' thing, yet are so blind that they can't see that they are being used by those who twist the words of their religion for their own benefit. It's no surprise that most of the people that are committing these acts are illiterate, as they can't read the words that following for themselves. The same was the case when the protestants split off from the Catholic Church. People need to be able to read the texts for themselves and make a decision of their own on what the interpretation should be. Only then are people free in their own decisions. And as long as that isn't the case, people are easily manipulated. 

[Fox Fire]

The fact that this discussing turned into a discussion about religion bothers me. The people responsible are using their religion as a 'justification', I'm under the impression that they use it as an excuse. To the absolute core, all monotheistic religion are the same: they tell the story of the creation of man and the way man should behave and live. Nothing more, nothing less. Go to a mosque, a church or a synagogue and ask any random person there what is the meaning of religion and basically all answers will consist of that 1 little line. In every religion killing is a sin, but for some reason over time people, and in the earlier times in history very powerful people (the Popes), have (mis-)used religion as a justification for violence. Believe me that the crusades in Medieval times to Palestina/Israel are not such a different thing from what is happening nowadays: people are using their believe, their interpretation of their religion as an excuse to wage war. I can guarantee you that in no religious book the act of violence is condoned. I hear people say that the Quran does have, but I dear you to actually learn the Arabic language and translate, in absolute wording and in context, what it is actually saying. It is all about interpretation. Because the Torah, the Bible, the Quran and any other religious book are books that have been written years thousands of years ago, their wording can't be explained by those who have written it down. It may be the word of God in the eyes of many, but in absolute reality it is still man that has written it down, and who says that man didn't alter the wordings of 'God' in the process? Who even says that your interpretation of the words of God aren't the opposite of what he means/meant?

 

As I see it these people, IS, Al Qaida, whoever is involved, are waging war using religion as an excuse. They could believe in the easter bunny and use that as the reason why they are doing what they are doing. I can absolutely guarantee you that none of these actions are justified in any religious book and should be justified by anything. They think they are doing to 'right' thing, yet are so blind that they can't see that they are being used by those who twist the words of their religion for their own benefit. It's no surprise that most of the people that are committing these acts are illiterate, as they can't read the words that following for themselves. The same was the case when the protestants split off from the Catholic Church. People need to be able to read the texts for themselves and make a decision of their own on what the interpretation should be. Only then are people free in their own decisions. And as long as that isn't the case, people are easily manipulated. 

It all come down to how you interpret your religion.

Some Taoists consider Lao Tzu divine and praise him as a god. Some worship all sorts of gods and believe in Chinese folklore. Others are more spiritual and agnostic.

Some Muslims believe women must cover their heads. Some believe men must do the same. Others believe neither must cover their head. Some Muslims believe tattoos are haram. Others don't.

Some Jews are Zionists. Others aren't.

Some Christians believe in Purgatory, the Spirit World, or the Trinity. Others don't.

 

And overall, morality is subjective. It's only right or wrong if you make it so. Millions of Jews were murdered because a bunch of Germans believed they were doing the right thing for their country, people and culture.

 

 

18 years....the guy hasn't even lived part of his life and has already ruined it. That's sad.

I'm going to make a guess here and say that the 18 yr old was one of the brothers.

[ccabal86]

Turns out the policeman whom they have brutally executed on the ground was also a Muslim

[Samus]

 

 

 

After seeing what the Prophet Mohammad 's  followers do to people , I have come to the conclusion that he is not the kind of god that I want . I will stick to the GOD that I have.

 

It used to be that those that died for freedom, died on the battlefield. It seems the battlefield has been brought to them. These French victims are no different. God rest their souls. Let us honor them in the name of freedom. 

 

3T

Let's not demonize Islam in comparison to other religions. Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody and ridiculous. The only difference is the times and cultural evolution. Christians can't go around burning witches, stoning homosexuals and launching crusades anymore because religion is dying in the west and things are becoming more liberal.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Salafi/Wahhabi movement is a pretty new thing that popped up in opposition to this global liberalization.  Even most Salafists are opposed to this type of crap. Islam should not be defined by the actions of a few dick heads. That's like defining Christianity based on the actions of the KKK or Westburo Baptist Church or one of the other countless Christian sects that are insane.

 

 

I don't follow your point thatf Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody as modern Islamist extremism.  Did Christianity and Judaism retain its membership by threatening to execute anyone who left their religion? Remember, this is according to the example set by Muhammad.  Does Christianity and Judaism teach that those who were not Jewish or Christian are less than fully human? Muhammad said that Muslims can be put to death for murder, but that a Muslim could never be put to death for killing a non-Muslim. 

 

I am not speaking about all Muslims, but this extremist ideology of hatred towards other religions and killing those that do not believe in "Allah". These extremists continue their Jihad against other religions for hundreds of years, checked by the ability of non-Muslims to defend themselves. To this day, not a week goes by that Islamic fundamentalists do not attempt to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists explicity in the name of Allah. 

 

3T

 

You should read the bible. Both the Torah and Bible specifically state that non-believers should all be killed on numerous occasions. Hell, the bible even tells you to kill your kids if they curse at you, stone your daughter if shes not a virgin on her wedding day, and even exterminate entire towns if even one person among them is a non-believer.

The difference is that while the world has become more liberal, the Muslim culture has stayed relatively the same, because unlike Christianity, Islam cannot be edited or changed. The Quran and Sharia remain the way they were written, unlike the bible.

The west inevitably created this problem when we dissolved the Ottoman Empire. We should have never done that.

This extremist ideology is entirely based on that particular event in history.

 

Show me these verses please, i'm dying to prove you wrong.

[Robert2424]

 

 

 

 

 

After seeing what the Prophet Mohammad 's  followers do to people , I have come to the conclusion that he is not the kind of god that I want . I will stick to the GOD that I have.

 

It used to be that those that died for freedom, died on the battlefield. It seems the battlefield has been brought to them. These French victims are no different. God rest their souls. Let us honor them in the name of freedom. 

 

3T

Let's not demonize Islam in comparison to other religions. Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody and ridiculous. The only difference is the times and cultural evolution. Christians can't go around burning witches, stoning homosexuals and launching crusades anymore because religion is dying in the west and things are becoming more liberal.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Salafi/Wahhabi movement is a pretty new thing that popped up in opposition to this global liberalization.  Even most Salafists are opposed to this type of crap. Islam should not be defined by the actions of a few dick heads. That's like defining Christianity based on the actions of the KKK or Westburo Baptist Church or one of the other countless Christian sects that are insane.

 

 

I don't follow your point thatf Christianity and Judaism are just as bloody as modern Islamist extremism.  Did Christianity and Judaism retain its membership by threatening to execute anyone who left their religion? Remember, this is according to the example set by Muhammad.  Does Christianity and Judaism teach that those who were not Jewish or Christian are less than fully human? Muhammad said that Muslims can be put to death for murder, but that a Muslim could never be put to death for killing a non-Muslim. 

 

I am not speaking about all Muslims, but this extremist ideology of hatred towards other religions and killing those that do not believe in "Allah". These extremists continue their Jihad against other religions for hundreds of years, checked by the ability of non-Muslims to defend themselves. To this day, not a week goes by that Islamic fundamentalists do not attempt to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists explicity in the name of Allah. 

 

3T

 

You should read the bible. Both the Torah and Bible specifically state that non-believers should all be killed on numerous occasions. Hell, the bible even tells you to kill your kids if they curse at you, stone your daughter if shes not a virgin on her wedding day, and even exterminate entire towns if even one person among them is a non-believer.

The difference is that while the world has become more liberal, the Muslim culture has stayed relatively the same, because unlike Christianity, Islam cannot be edited or changed. The Quran and Sharia remain the way they were written, unlike the bible.

The west inevitably created this problem when we dissolved the Ottoman Empire. We should have never done that.

This extremist ideology is entirely based on that particular event in history.

 

Whoa, I have to comment on this one. the Torah says that. I've have never seen that anywhere within the Bible. Anywhere. That would be a direct contradiction to what it says. I have never seen any verses in the bible like the ones you describe here Fox Fire. 

 

 

 

 

So, let me point something out about the middle east. Its a completely different culture there then in the United States. Religion is very important to these people and compared to Religion in the United States or in Europe, we are very laid back. There are really 2 type of islamic beliefs. There are those who believe but think they should be nice. There are good islamic people. Then you have the extremists. Like al qaeda. They are different, and the more outspoken or more active people will heard and remembered more than the less quiet ones. That being said, both types thinks the other is despicable and hypocritical. Religion is more important than life in the middle east. Over here, its a laid back thing that doesn't compare. 

 

There is no solution in the Middle East. At least none that "The Western World" could come up with. Because ideals are completely different. But turning our head and letting them work out their problems isn't a solution either. The basic principles that forge who we are, don't hold up to these peoples standards. If we decide just to pull completely out of the Middle East, It would look like some parts of Africa. Absolute Chaos and Genocide. Which could last 100 years or longer there. Our Involvement merely delays the chaos that the middle east is. This area is going to remain like this unless a Group emerges that isn't Extremists from there, and can gain just as much power and support as the extremist groups out there. I highly doubt such a group can emerge. America is merely peacekeepers, who install these Democracies with no backbone or foundation like we have here. I can't think of scenario that we could install any government anywhere with backbone and foundation that can hold up. 

 

War is second hand human nature. Fueled by money, motive, land, and ambition. Nobody goes to war without these things. Go in half heartedly into war, and it can and probably will eat you alive. 

 

I really dont want to turn this into a Christian bashing thread. But I've read the bible, and that's exactly why I stopped being a Christian. I could post a wall of quotes from the bible, but I already did this on the OWF to the displeasure of many Christians and Jews. Equally, I can post a wall of identical quotes from the Quran.

 

As for the middle east and different types of Muslims.... Here's the thing:

Islam is not like Judaism and Christianity in the sense that Islam is a much broader belief. It's not just a religion, it's a way of life complete with a political ideology and law. America would be pretty simaler to a Muslim state if the Church were in charge.

The study of the Quran and it's interpretation is an ongoing debate. Always has been. This is where you get most of the disagreements you see among Muslims about the religion. 

 

@Fox Fire. All I'm saying the bible doesn't say that. The Quran does though. (It also says to beat women and where to beat them). If the Bible did, it be hypocritical of itself. I'll leave it at that. 

 

@Samus, I'd say quote the verses, but Fox Fire is my friend. I think this is just a misunderstanding. 

[Lanyaie]

http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/InspireWinter2013.pdf

His name was apparently on a magazine by AQ as an execution target...I would hope that anyone else on there takes the necessary precautions to protect themselves. Although, looking at the gun control laws in EU, what way is there to protect yourself from these people?

[Political Fury]

There are radicals in every group or sect of society, religion, and politics.  However, the Radical Islamic individuals tend to be the worst.  Any who use violence to accomplish their own goals are not necessarily seen in a very bright light.  Personally what we saw in France today was a terrorist attack by the same individuals who continue to use violence to spread their message of hate and Jihad.  They are not defending or spreading their religion, they are carrying out mass murders, inhumane and deplorable acts, and any sort of talk to them is cheap.  I concur with the others in this forum, that in dealing with Islamic Radicals the only means they understand is violence.  They must be obtained, and if they were in America, I would hope they would receive the death penalty.  However, they do want to die for their religion? so that they can go and receive their virgins for spilling the blood of the infidels so they believe.  Which brings me to the conclusion that, I do indeed hope the black-ops carried out by the CIA, MI6, and French Intelligence continue to brutalize and bring suffering to those who wish to do harm to innocent civilians, there is no justification for the murder of innocents.

[Robert2424]

http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/InspireWinter2013.pdf

His name was apparently on a magazine by AQ as an execution target...I would hope that anyone else on there takes the necessary precautions to protect themselves. Although, looking at the gun control laws in EU, what way is there to protect yourself from these people?

He hade Police Bodyguards that were there when the attackers showed up, they they were killed also.