So, it seems there's been multiple Islamist terror attacks in Paris, in at least 6 locations, it's all over the news.

 

Maybe it's fucking time to end the tiptoeing and steamroll ISIS into the ground?

Pursuit of happiness is a bit difficult in a fucked environment.

 

The overwhelming evidence of peer reviewed science is that global warming is real. Decades of research and thousands of scientific studies and the evidence only gets stronger.

And given in the other thread you said you supported a database of all muslims how on earth do you claim to be anti big government?

 

That inconsistency is pretty hard to get my head around.

Whatever Mr. Little... you'll get my support when you want to find a new planet to colonize, global redistribution of wealth is not my idea of utopia... it's yours.

 

When people are streaming into my country with a strong probability of wanting to kill me because I don't subscribe to their version of utopia... yeah I want to keep track of them.

So trying to fix the environment before our climate is screwed is totalitarian big government but demanding a cast group of people including citizens be subject to massive state control because of a domestic terror incident in another country that isn't even Europe's biggest terror incident is a rational small government act.

 

 

Nope still don't get it

 

 

global redistribution of wealth is not my idea of utopia... it's yours.

 

Yes its not. He wants to redistribute it the poor Wall Street billionaires . They're poor cuz they don't have a trillion dollars. Am I right. So lets bailout them more so they make more mistakes and cause more recessions.

 

Well what do you know? Sounds like a perfect plan for the death of Capitalism 

Well I guess you'll just to have to continue to not get it. Just because I am a strong advocate for the 2nd amendment of the US Constitution, doesn't mean I'm a strong advocate for some lunatic from ISIS to be able to come into my country and shoot me in the face because I don't face Mecca and rub my forehead on a rug. One again... you complicate the obvious.

 

The EU made itself into a multicultural place because the moment 1 culture feels the need to surpress another, all hell breaks lose. Are we more enlightend then the Middle East? Perhaps yes as a society, but definatly not as individuals. Both realms have there virtues, both realms have there vices, both realms are currently inhabiting this world and denying that truth is belitteling your own belief that God created this world for all.

And the crown achievement of European multiculturalism is located in no other place than Molenbeek, Brussels. I find it INCREDIBLY ironic that the terror capital of Europe also happens to be it's...capital? I mean, imagine the hilarity if Bin Laden & the gang had planned planned the 9/11 attacks from Washington D.C.!

 

But beyond that, I guess I'm not surprised. We live in a world where weakness will be taken advantage of, even if some people choose to portray it as being modern and enlightened. Brussels is the epitome of institutonal weakness, so it is only logical to exloit it by those that want to. Unfortunately, if you blind yorself with ideology, and fail to take evolving contexts into account, you might delude yourself for a while, but reality will eventually hit you like a freight train.

 

oi, if you gonna badmouth a piece of Belgium, do it right. Molenbeek had some terrorist affilated persons, over half weren't even belgian to begin with (good and bad of Schengen that is). Unsurprising they would hold up in the geographical center of europe, I don't find that too strange.

 

pffft, being hit by a train to get you killed in Belgium is unlikely, both for they don't run on time and whe they run, they run slowly

 

 

 

There was an interesting news-blog from someone 2 days ago, going on about "the price of society", which for europe/"the west" currently is the occational terror attack. If you want to "adjust" your society just to try and stop some loonies with a plan, gratz, you made their victory. The reply shouldn't be "new laws", the reply should be the current laws being applied indifferently of affilation, emotion or mass-shouting.

 

The US replied to 9/11 with the Patriot Act, grats to you all, you lost the game. I can only hope our "kinda tea-party but only in relative position" guys only keep it to words and not new laws when they want a Patriot Act Light.

 

Once you change your laws to fit an ideology trying to attack you, you have lost. The laws present are either already good enough to deal with it or the threat is something so new and foreighn that indeed new laws would be required. Thusfar I haven't seen little green men landing in our streets, so the "new and foreighn" shouldn't trigger. We have a small band of "warmongers" feeding thousands of eager listeners lines about "salvation in light of your religion", we shouldn't step from our principles and act the same way as them just to beat them, YOU JOIN THEM WHEN YOU DO THIS!

Bets, here is an interesting read, it's in French so others might not be able to read it: http://www.scienceshumaines.com/qui-sont-les-jihadistes-francais_fr_33966.html

 

I'm myself reading a Hungarian summary (unfortunately my French is too rusty at the moment), so that won't help you guys either.

Skimming the first few pages it seems to support the notion of French born and bred terrorists. Which again poses the question of why the focus of the response is on immigration.

I really don't get why the problem with this mass immigration is so hard to grasp for some of you. I don't really have time to get into it again, so I'll just drop this other study here and make a few short points. Skim through the info graphics: http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/papers/2014/11/western-foreign-fighters-in-syria-and-iraq-byman-shapiro/be-afraid--web.pdf#page8

 

1, While the French study focuses on domestically fostered terrorsts, a good portion of ISIS fighters are NOT from Europe, but rather from Syria, Iraq, Libya and other ME countries.

2, In the case of Europe-born terrorists, the trip to Syria is an important part of their training and often a final step of their brainwashing. They then return to carry out synchronized attacks against soft targets.

3, Probably the biggest problem with mass illegal migration is the colossal security risk it creates. NO LOGISTICAL SYSTEM IN EUROPE can cope with the influx of so many people, and makes it exceedingly easy for clandestine individuals (such as terrorists) to move undetected through borders with immigrant crowds.

No one is saying that there ate not problems from immigration in Europe right now. However they are not linked to current terrorism threats in Europe.

No one is saying that there ate not problems from immigration in Europe right now. However they are not linked to current terrorism threats in Europe.

No one is saying that there ate not problems from immigration in Europe right now. However they are not linked to current terrorism threats in Europe.

No one is saying that there ate not problems from immigration in Europe right now. However they are not linked to current terrorism threats in Europe.

 

Two of the perpetrators were proven to have come through Greece with the migrants. So yes, migration is linked to current terrorism threats in Europe. Let's not argue facts.

 

No one is saying that there ate not problems from immigration in Europe right now. However they are not linked to current terrorism threats in Europe.

No one is saying that there ate not problems from immigration in Europe right now. However they are not linked to current terrorism threats in Europe.

 

Two of the perpetrators were proven to have come through Greece with the migrants. So yes, migration is linked to current terrorism threats in Europe. Let's not argue facts.

 

At the moment, there is no evidence that any of the attackers are anything other than French Citizens. Therefore it is not possible to blame these attacks on the refugee crises. Yes some may have returned to France from Syria, but in the past home grown attackers would go to Pakistan before returning to their home countries. This is nothing new. Sneaking in on a false passport is also not something new. 

 

The cause of the refugee crises and the cause of the homegrown terrorism are both linked to Islamic State. However the refugee crises is a symptom and not a disease in its own right. 

 

As for the idea that IS would smuggle in attackers disguised as refugees from Syria (rather than recruiting attackers in Europe, training them in Syria and returning them to Europe) that frankly makes no sense. To launch this type of attack you need weapons, you need a base to operate from, you need knowledge of the local area. None of these things are available to a Syrian sneaking into Europe. 

 

The weapons need contacts in local black markets, and the ability to work as smugglers. Why would you use Syrians when you can recruit French citizens who can travel with less suspicion and also have the advantage of speaking French, which is kind of useful for logistics in France. 

 

The base (a flat or house) needs to be rented or bought from someone. In Europe cash in hand landlords are kind of rare, so you realistically need a bank account in Europe. Again,Syrian's find that hard to get hold of. 

 

Knowledge of the local area, again, local recruit tops a Syrian. 

 

Ultimately, focusing on refugees as a cause is a dangerous game because that ignores the real problem of home grown terrorists. 

At the moment, there is no evidence that any of the attackers are anything other than French Citizens. Therefore it is not possible to blame these attacks on the refugee crises. Yes some may have returned to France from Syria, but in the past home grown attackers would go to Pakistan before returning to their home countries. This is nothing new. Sneaking in on a false passport is also not something new.

What's new is the opportunity to blend in with 10.000 illegals daily. Yes, evading border controls was a thing in the past, but you still had a higher chance of getting caught. Now, terrorists can come and go as they please, because authorities are bogged down with the flood.

 

The cause of the refugee crises and the cause of the homegrown terrorism are both linked to Islamic State. However the refugee crises is a symptom and not a disease in its own right.

Yes, but it's a symptom that makes terrorists' job ALOT easier 

 

As for the idea that IS would smuggle in attackers disguised as refugees from Syria (rather than recruiting attackers in Europe, training them in Syria and returning them to Europe) that frankly makes no sense. To launch this type of attack you need weapons, you need a base to operate from, you need knowledge of the local area. None of these things are available to a Syrian sneaking into Europe.

You're borderline insulting my intelligence, and you have not read the study I have linked. I doubt you even looked at the infographics. OF COURSE they're not going to smuggle 100% of their assets in from Syria. They can get guns and explosives from the black market here. They have agents and local contacts here already. What they can smuggle in (with the refugees) is potentially HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of trained, brainwashed veterans straight from the Syrian war. These people can contact and join local sleeper cells to become assets for future operations

 

The weapons need contacts in local black markets, and the ability to work as smugglers. Why would you use Syrians when you can recruit French citizens who can travel with less suspicion and also have the advantage of speaking French, which is kind of useful for logistics in France.

Again, French citizens in need of training travel to Syria, receive training, come back while authorities are busy with the refugees.

 

The base (a flat or house) needs to be rented or bought from someone. In Europe cash in hand landlords are kind of rare, so you realistically need a bank account in Europe. Again,Syrian's find that hard to get hold of.

They already have local contacts, the newcomers just seek them out

 

Knowledge of the local area, again, local recruit tops a Syrian.

Local helpers

 

Ultimately, focusing on refugees as a cause is a dangerous game because that ignores the real problem of home grown terrorists.

Refugee crisis is not a cause, but a damn good diversion to smuggle agents into and from Syria

And despite all that, despite the million or so refugees in Europe that are supposed to be this mass of attackers coming to help out the attacks, all the evidence points to this being an attack carried out 100% by French Citizens. 

 

Also the paper you linked to is 100% on that point-it looks at the threat posed by European and US citizens and identifies them as the terrorist threat and not refugees. 

 

As for the refugee crises making it easier to cross borders, that also doesn't really add up. If anything it makes it harder because now there are more naval patrols and coastal patrols trying to pick people up and process them through camps. In the past you could just amble across the border. Europe has a very long maritime border. It has never been properly policed. Its just now people have noticed.

Whatever Mr. Little... you'll get my support when you want to find a new planet to colonize, global redistribution of wealth is not my idea of utopia... it's yours.

 

When people are streaming into my country with a strong probability of wanting to kill me because I don't subscribe to their version of utopia... yeah I want to keep track of them.

I wouldn't say strong probability, as the US was only going to accept a few thousand compared to to hundreds of thousands in Europe. The vast majority of them don't want to kill anyone. But I'm actually in agreement of opposing this immigration, because that's what it is. It's not a refugee thing, it's immigration. These people flooded into Europe hoping for jobs and new lives, not to sit in a refugee camp. While people are flooding out of Iraq and Syria, foreign fighters are flooding in. These people need to go back and fix their country. They're the only ones who can do it and integrating them into all of these western nations is not going to work. It's too many people to effectively handle and it will only create a bigger social division in Europe that those people aren't going to benefit from. 

Whether the attackers in Paris came in with the refugees or not, the refugee crisis is a reasonable security concern. These people are fleeing areas where people that we are fighting are operating. 

 

 

 

Unfortunately the Republican party has a distinct anti science element. If you want proof of this look at the attitude to polling data at the last election. It was totally ignored and dismissed even though there was a strong advantage in paying attention.

Fortunately, the Republican party has a distinct anti big government element. The only people that said anything about the debate being over, was you guys. It's like children declaring their version of the future, and then sticking fingers in their ears as they refuse to listen to the overwhelming evidence that you have been lied to for years. The climate change movement is not about controlling the climate... it's about controlling people. These con-men want to steal billions of dollars from developed countries and give hundreds of millions to under-developed countries. Notice the difference? That's them pocketing the rest.

 

"Attitude to polling data at the last election"? If you poll what issues are important to people, global warming is a blip. Nobody cares about your Chicken Little, "the sky is falling", let's see how many sheep we can get to believe this bullshit. I don't know if you were paying attention to what happened in the last election, maybe you were too focused on who supported this lie, and missed the part where they got totally crushed in the election. People just want to live their lives... Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness... have you ever heard of that? Keep your big controlling government out of my face.

 

 

Pursuit of happiness is a bit difficult in a fucked environment.

 

The overwhelming evidence of peer reviewed science is that global warming is real. Decades of research and thousands of scientific studies and the evidence only gets stronger.

Climate change and the human impact on our environment is not only a fact, it's a serious issue. To add to it, the Earths 6th mass extinction is taking place as we speak and it is being primarily caused by human activity.

The amount of evidence for this is overwhelming, Lys. People are not interested in it because that's how people are. They are stupid, creatures of habit who never seem to learn until they do it the hard way. I mean, what's funny is that nobody I know denies these things, but nobody does anything about it. This is quite possibly because there is nothing we can do. We are overpopulated and our only real hope is either technology advancement or mass genocide. 

"French Citizens" is just a smoke screen for political correctness. Technically true but in reality it's useless information. Could we use it and draw conclusion that it mean any French Citizen might be a dangerous individual plotting to terrorize their neighbors? Not really. So maybe there is a higher risk group of a specific origin and religion? Indeed there is and most of the current refugees qualify.

 

We can even assume that current refuges didn't took any part in the last attacks. Does it mean they're completely harmless? Well, we might be in a comfortable position to craft such theories. However this is not the case for the government as they're responsible for the lives of their citizens. And in their eyes (at least I hope they have the ability to predict what may happen) those newcomers belong to the higher risk group.

Pursuit of happiness is a bit difficult in a fucked environment.

 

The overwhelming evidence of peer reviewed science is that global warming is real. Decades of research and thousands of scientific studies and the evidence only gets stronger.

Climate change and the human impact on our environment is not only a fact, it's a serious issue. To add to it, the Earths 6th mass extinction is taking place as we speak and it is being primarily caused by human activity.

The amount of evidence for this is overwhelming, Lys. People are not interested in it because that's how people are. They are stupid, creatures of habit who never seem to learn until they do it the hard way. I mean, what's funny is that nobody I know denies these things, but nobody does anything about it. This is quite possibly because there is nothing we can do. We are overpopulated and our only real hope is either technology advancement or mass genocide. 

 

 

It's mostly about not being able to find consensus among the whole population (which I don't believe is possible). Would you give away half of your income to fight global warming?...BTW your neighbor will pay nothing, because he don't give a $%# and you are not able to force him. Also other questions appear. Mars ice caps are melting. Why? There are no humans there.

It's not all black and white with easy answers.

And despite all that, despite the million or so refugees in Europe that are supposed to be this mass of attackers coming to help out the attacks, all the evidence points to this being an attack carried out 100% by French Citizens. 

 

Also the paper you linked to is 100% on that point-it looks at the threat posed by European and US citizens and identifies them as the terrorist threat and not refugees. 

 

As for the refugee crises making it easier to cross borders, that also doesn't really add up. If anything it makes it harder because now there are more naval patrols and coastal patrols trying to pick people up and process them through camps. In the past you could just amble across the border. Europe has a very long maritime border. It has never been properly policed. Its just now people have noticed.

We must be reading a different study, or more likely, you're pushing a political agenda. Either way, we'll have to agree to disagree

 

And despite all that, despite the million or so refugees in Europe that are supposed to be this mass of attackers coming to help out the attacks, all the evidence points to this being an attack carried out 100% by French Citizens. 

 

Also the paper you linked to is 100% on that point-it looks at the threat posed by European and US citizens and identifies them as the terrorist threat and not refugees. 

 

As for the refugee crises making it easier to cross borders, that also doesn't really add up. If anything it makes it harder because now there are more naval patrols and coastal patrols trying to pick people up and process them through camps. In the past you could just amble across the border. Europe has a very long maritime border. It has never been properly policed. Its just now people have noticed.

We must be reading a different study, or more likely, you're pushing a political agenda. Either way, we'll have to agree to disagree

 

The one entitled

"The Threat of Terrorism from Western Foreign Fighters in Syria and Iraq" and which specifically talks about the danger posed by westerners who go to fight in wars in Syria and Iraq and then return home, and the introductory paragraph of which talks about an act of terror caused by a French Citizen who returned after fighting in Syria?

 

It's very clearly not talking about refugees. 

Bets, here is an interesting read, it's in French so others might not be able to read it: http://www.scienceshumaines.com/qui-sont-les-jihadistes-francais_fr_33966.html

 

I'm myself reading a Hungarian summary (unfortunately my French is too rusty at the moment), so that won't help you guys either.

meh, its not that I can read french that I would do so willingly

 

icewofl made a nice synopsis thou, together with a further analysis I wish to support. I again wish to use my "so close all schools cause some students turn into murderers" reply. What we are dealing with a "religious" zealots, numbering in suc low quantities that making any kind of generalisation of their characteristics is to make even the most liberal-viewing statistician cringe at someone using their presence as a viewpoint on the entire group.

 

We are dealing with individuals, people, singular individuals who follow an ideology we ca only associate with the most vile parts of humanity. And humanity's reply is firstly always one of overreaction and generalization. This is human nature. This is NOT however the society in which most of those humans desire to life. Most are already getting over the first adrenaline rush off "lets kill all these moffo's". If only the loudest mouths could start seeing this too, but as always is shown, the loudest people never speak for the majority of the society at large.

The security risk bros! Don't tell me you don't see the friggin security risks!? The migrants themselves aren't the immediate threat IT'S THE SITUATION they create, this huge EXPLOITABLE situation that can be so easily abused by anyone that wants to

 

Obviously ISIS could be biding its time, it's not like all infiltrated agents are going to start shit right away. Smart thing to do would be to lay low for a while, and plan something really big with possibly hundreds of sleeper cells activating at the same time. It's certainly in the realm of possibility

 

Bets, here is an interesting read, it's in French so others might not be able to read it: http://www.scienceshumaines.com/qui-sont-les-jihadistes-francais_fr_33966.html

 

I'm myself reading a Hungarian summary (unfortunately my French is too rusty at the moment), so that won't help you guys either.

meh, its not that I can read french that I would do so willingly

 

icewofl made a nice synopsis thou, together with a further analysis I wish to support. I again wish to use my "so close all schools cause some students turn into murderers" reply. What we are dealing with a "religious" zealots, numbering in suc low quantities that making any kind of generalisation of their characteristics is to make even the most liberal-viewing statistician cringe at someone using their presence as a viewpoint on the entire group.

 

We are dealing with individuals, people, singular individuals who follow an ideology we ca only associate with the most vile parts of humanity. And humanity's reply is firstly always one of overreaction and generalization. This is human nature. This is NOT however the society in which most of those humans desire to life. Most are already getting over the first adrenaline rush off "lets kill all these moffo's". If only the loudest mouths could start seeing this too, but as always is shown, the loudest people never speak for the majority of the society at large.

 

I wish to use my "Noone has ever broken into your house, so you should leave doors open while going to work" reply. It's probably on the same absurd level .

While overreaction is always bad, neglecting is far worse. Those singular individuals you mention do not appear out of thin air. They're "born" in a specific environment. What does it have to do with refugees? They all share the same background and that means their arrival is risk increasing factor. It does not mean refugees are evil. It means they're security risk.

 

I pray to be wrong, but I can assure you, this is not the end. It seems that we've entered blow trading phase - they hit us, we hit them and they'll hit back (and it will go on unless we stomp them into the ground...and this is not going to happen without locals help - that is Syria). There will be more attacks (because it's impossible to prevent them all), more dead and more tears. I hope for all those folks preaching "peace, everything is fine" today not to be very surprised in a half year time.

The security risk bros! Don't tell me you don't see the friggin security risks!? The migrants themselves aren't the immediate threat IT'S THE SITUATION they create, this huge EXPLOITABLE situation that can be so easily abused by anyone that wants to

 

Obviously ISIS could be biding its time, it's not like all infiltrated agents are going to start shit right away. Smart thing to do would be to lay low for a while, and plan something really big with possibly hundreds of sleeper cells activating at the same time. It's certainly in the realm of possibility

Well you can make nothing 100% secure. Some people can still keep living while knowing a certain amount of "bad luck" excists. Does this mean we should designate a weekly "kill this dude dear terrorits, but leave the rest alone, mkay?", no. Does this mean we need to run around listening to every "doommerchant"? I'd rather not, once you got "the people" moving, its generally hard to take away the pitchforks.

 

Both the cause and effect are intertwined beyond a mere "if this is done, all is well for henceforth" solution will work. There is a system, the system is the current society, let it handle it within the parameters set by that society over its evolution. In that way I am perhaps a true "conservative" in that I don't like rapid change. It only aids a single line of thought while not even a single person can keep his story straight thruwout a day living in a society.

 

Perhaps a "let it play out" approach is being too naive, I can understand that. But I rather die oblivious to fright then being holed up in a room made of aluminum foil.

 

Hardly anyone is sounding the wardrums as of yet, but 10 people making random accusations makes a bystander who doesn't speak show up like an enemy. I don't really feel a need to be around such a society were 1 thought pattern is craved without restraint. Heck last I checked, thats the ISIS way of handling domestic affairs. Not the rest of the world.

 

 

I wish to use my "Noone has ever broken into your house, so you should leave doors open while going to work" reply. It's probably on the same absurd level .

While overreaction is always bad, neglecting is far worse. Those singular individuals you mention do not appear out of thin air. They're "born" in a specific environment. What does it have to do with refugees? They all share the same background and that means their arrival is risk increasing factor. It does not mean refugees are evil. It means they're security risk.

 

I pray to be wrong, but I can assure you, this is not the end. It seems that we've entered blow trading phase - they hit us, we hit them and they'll hit back (and it will go on unless we stomp them into the ground...and this is not going to happen without locals help - that is Syria). There will be more attacks (because it's impossible to prevent them all), more dead and more tears. I hope for all those folks preaching "peace, everything is fine" today not to be very surprised in a half year time.

 

Keeping the door open means you get a heafty heating bill. But is it indeed to much to ask to life in a society were acts of unlawfullness are kept to the fringes of society? Kept to the people who abandoned all aid and support? Kept to the people whom we might refer to as "potentional owners of a 2x5m flat with a strict dietary regime"?

 

We don't need to make more "enemies of the state" just by acting on a stereotype of 1 selection of people. What we need is thesame society as we had before these attacks. The same level of responce, the same level of action. Was the amount of effort previously perhaps not enough? Well gratz, that happens all the time. We should learn from that, we should learn that to keep a society together is to keep the foundation itself rigid and clear. Whatever happens to try and shock them loose. We won't "win" by just leveling the ME (think some of you wn't actually like that anyway), we must be able to overcome our need for a materialistical victory (DEATH TO THEM ALL!) and go for a filosophical victory (sticks and stones may break my bones).

 

As for the preaching, I did enjoy the Dalai Lama's responce, someone is keeping it real >_>

I just want to put another fact on the table here. 

 

At the beginning of 2015 the European Union tried to limit refugee arrivals by refusing to rescue ships in distress. 

 

3,000 died. 

 

How many innocents do you want to see die to counter a hypothetical threat because of a domestic terrorism incident?